"Rep. Charles Rangel (D-New York) has proposed a bill that would require every citizen to serve two years in the military or some form of government service to be chosen by the President with no exemptions for conscientious objectors.
Rangel, who has recently been convicted of multiple ethics violations, sponsored HR 5741. The bill would require all persons “between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service.” The bill goes on to define national service as “military service or service in a civilian capacity that, as determined by the President, promotes the national defense, including national or community service.”"
I think some of the Dems are trying to eliminate the Liberalism infestation their party has succombed to.
Seriously... think about it...
A revision of this bill could be made to reinstate the draft. If the draft was reinstated, Liberals would self-deport! Just like during the Vietnam war. Many draft-duckers left the country to avoid being drafted.
Rangel may be a corrupt politician, but he´s gained a few points with *this* idea!
I PRAY that this passes with an ammendment to reinstate the draft!!
"Persons may inducted to perform military service only if a declaration of war is in effect, or if the President declares a national emergency necessitating the induction of persons to perform military service and immediately informs Congress of the reasons for the declaration." http://rangel.house.gov/...
Why else would you get so excited when people´s lives are in danger regardless of the reason.
You remind me of Stalin because of all this plus your fear of "enemies within" that Stalin also held. Paranoia is so becoming of you. Were you also the child who did bad things for attention, but now you don´t know how to get any other kind of attention?
In all honesty though I would like to know if you agree with Bush & his permission for torture?
We´re already in two wars. Where have you been for the past 10 years?
The draft would certainly make Liberals appreciate our men and women in service a lot more. They wouldn´t be so quick to call them "murderers" or "baby killers" or be so quick to side with the enemy.
Oh... that´s right. You believe that we have no "enemies". We apparently misinterpretted al Quaeda´s actions on 9/11, huh?
"In all honesty though I would like to know if you agree with Bush & his permission for torture?"
Do you really need reminding?
Here are the words I used on 6/29/2007:
“Human rights… Human rights are reserved for humans. The moment you strap on a bomb (or even plan to) to kill hundreds of civilians in a crowded market, or the moment you plan to dive a full commercial airliner into a building, you have henceforth forfeited any rights you have as a human. When you decide to chop off the hands of your neighbor for smoking a cigarette, mutilate a young girl’s genitals, or viscously dismember another human while he/she is living, you have forfeited any “human” rights you may have had. The people that commit such heinous crimes deserve any and every shred of retribution dished out to them. This is why I support waterboarding. Not indiscriminately, mind you. I think it should be reserved for the lowest of lowlives that have either committed heinous crimes or have knowledge of planned horrendous acts.” http://www.shortnews.com/...
I have no pity for terrorists. None. Period. There’s a special place for them in the afterlife… it’s called “the hottest spot in the pits of hell”. If that makes me a cold-hearted and calloused sumbitch, then I’m probably the most calloused and cold-hearted of *all* sumbitches.
If you thought I was going give a jelly-kneed or spineless Liberal answer, you apparently haven´t been paying attention. You Liberals amaze me. You think it´s perfectly okay to kill a child, but heaven forbid we beat the hell out of treachorous murders to save thousands of lives. Where is the moral high-ground to that? What makes it better to allow thousands to die so that a scum of the earth murderer isn´t inconvenienced?
Your service in the military may change your views on a few things. Bring on the draft.
I meant that the enemies within being the liberals. My feelings towards enemies sits alongside Jesus´ understanding, & our actions are the same. Until you accept Jesus´ teachings you are a lost sheep. I only say this because you believe in the bible yet act like you never read a single page. Which lead me to question your view of torture.
Those who condone torture are sociopaths, so thank you for giving the long yes answer (in such a way that supports my wondering if you are really a sociopathic). I lived with a sociopath before & if you would like me to point out all the (backed by psychology) sociopathic qualities you express day to day I can. Maybe this would help you grow up & take a step into real man hood. Yet I know you won´t because you are (like I´ve said before) predictable. Prove me wronge.
Maybe you should do some time in the Military before you start making crazy statements Car.
I did my time. Most people often don´t realize how evil and full of shit the govt is until they serve in the military.
I have a few friends who are seriously fked up mentally and emotionally because of the shit they experienced in pointless wars. I have a screwed up immunity system thanks the the US military´s anthrax shots. Suicide rates in the military surpass suicide rates in the civilian world.
That´s the America you want? Forcing people to serve the govt is a total violation of freedom. It should have never been done for the Vietnam war (which was a very idiotic and detrimental war on many levels) and it should never be done again. AND anyway, forcing mandatory service won´t stop the Chinese from taking over the world (economically).
Wow, you support the draft? You called everyone with a differing political opinion essentially traitors, compliant to murder and endorsing 911. You support stripping any human rights from people who have committed suicide bombings (???) or Suspected of planning a terrorist attack. I don´t know how you expect anyone to take you seriously.
“Until you accept Jesus´ teachings you are a lost sheep” Being Christian doesn’t mean that you’re perfect. I turn the cheek just as well as the next man, but there are limits to my tolerance, just as the next man. I’ve never seen you take a single stand for Christianity in these threads, so find someone else to preach your empty gospel to.
“Those who condone torture are sociopaths…” If it’ll save thousands of lives (as it did in Bush’s case), then what’s sociopathic about that? I asked you this question earlier and you conveniently dodged it. I have solid ground and reasoning behind my opinions and beliefs. Where are yours founded on?
On February 1, 2002, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed beheaded Daniel Pearl, an American journalist. They even made a video recording of it and released it on the internet. Did you happen to see that video? He was wrestled to the ground and had his head viciously hacked off. Then they placed his head on the torso of the body so the camera could get a close-up of his lifeless face.
And I’m the sociopath? No, I have the courage to step up and stand out against your façade of political correctness.
The following links chronicle the thousands of lives that were saved because of hard and factual information we retrieved from the *3* detainees that were waterboarded.
ABC News reporter Brian Ross in an interview: “In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Library Tower.” http://www.nationalreview.com/...
“The interrogations helped break up plots to attack American diplomatic facilities abroad, Heathrow airport and Canary Wharf in London, and multiple targets in the United States." http://www.breakingnews.ie/...
I answered your question in a very straight and frank manner. There was no dancing around or shucking a jiving. I am brutally honest with everything and I don’t leave room for interpretation. Let’s see if you’ll do the same or simply slink away…
If you were in charge, would you have allowed thousands of innocent people die in order to protect a terrorist that had already killed hundreds? What would be your justification for allowing this to occur?
And what of those that were severely injured but survived these attacks? What of *their* pain and suffering? How would you console them and explain that their pain and suffering and the thousands of lives lost were better than waterboarding someone with information that could have prevented it?
Who´s the sociopath, now?
These questions are for anyone that dares to answer them. There is a lot of empty condemnations, for waterboarding... but not *one* person has given a viable alternative to what it achieved.
Yes, yes... People come back from wars with physical and mental scars. We all know this. Did I mention anywhere that this was why I support the bill? No? Then your argument is pointless, as you´re simply attempting to put words in my mouth.
I´m actually pretty good with words, thank you. No assistance required but thanks, again.
"Forcing people to serve the govt is a total violation of freedom." This administration has already done quite a bit to violate freedoms. Like all the other bills, this one is also sponsored and supported by Democrats.
Sorry, tiggy. I live in a real world. I´m not one of those people that call terrorists "freedom fighters" and I don´t go around shouting for their release or to give them the same protections afforded to our citizens.
I´m not a pro-terrorist sypathizer. That *is* why people take me seriously.
I never tried to say you supported the draft because of the reasons I listed. The reasons I listed were just reasons why there should never be a draft (along with thousands of other reasons I don´t have time to list).
Why would you think I am trying to put words in your mouth when I was just listing some negative aspects of a draft? Egocentric? You see, the way the rhetoric of argument goes is you have to talk about the issue at hand and the the pros and cons to each side. I was giving some negative reasons for having a draft and you in turn said my argument is pointless becuase it isn´t the reason you support the draft. Can you see why your retort is comical and can´t even be considered a reasonable answer?
So far the only reason you gave why you supported the bill is so that the "Liberals would self-deport!" LMAO-you crack me up. You think the military is made of all conservatives and that only the liberals tried to escape the draft?
And for you to use the example of the Vietnam war draft to back your argument is crazy. Need I explain why?
and to quote you
"Your service in the military may change your views on a few things."
So that means you are signing up?
... service in the military WILL change your view on things. So will working as a waiter or waitress at Chili´s. Seeing the human struggle in action is quite illuminating. Most people get do their 9 to 5, eat their McDonalds, and watch the nightly news so they can be "well informed" on what´s going on out there. They don´t have a clue. But my point isn´t to underline ignorance, but to say this: That´s their choice.
Conscription is removing just another basic freedom. It´s not right. People should have the choice to serve or not. In fact, who wants a service provided by someone who absolutely hates what they´re doing because they were MADE to do it? It´s always been a volunteer service, and it should stay that way.
If your world is one where half the US are traitors, in order to be protected from terrorists we must give up all freedom of those even suspected of terrorism to defend ourselves and people should be forced into the army for their own good, yours is a world that is far far from reality.
Charles Rangel was a war hero. He won the Bronze Star in Korea for bravery (look it up). Of course CArnold will say that doesn´t mean anything because Rangel is a liberal. We never should have eliminated the draft in the first place, IMO. And Charlie Rangel´s ethics charges are trivial crap that anybody in politics could be charged with.
@shaohu “Dude, your rhetoric is hilarious.” The same could be said for your own arguments. Why?
“You see, the way the rhetoric of argument goes is you have to talk about the issue at hand and the the pros and cons to each side.” There you go. Talk about the issue at hand. You’ve not once given a reason as to why a draft would be bad. You’re posting arguments as to why *war* would be bad. Nobody is arguing that war is great or enjoyable, so get off that stump. Your argument could be broadly used against draftees or those that voluntarily enlisted.
Yes. We agree. War is bad and has a great deal of ugly consequences. Now… how about addressing the draft?
“So that means you are signing up?” I’m too old to enlist, but not too old to be drafted. If drafted, chances are I would never see a day of combat because of my highly sought-after technical skills. I would probably be stationed someplace conducting cyber attacks or programming drones.
@Dayron I see your point. But dig further… how did you come about to have these “choices”? How many died and sacrificed so that you could live in a country and society where *do* have the right to choose? Those people protected your very right to have a choice. Freedom isn’t free.
“It´s always been a volunteer service, and it should stay that way.” Like George Washington, I disagree.
@all George Washington said it best: "... it must be laid down as a primary position and the basis of our (democratic) system, that every citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal service to the defense of it.”
The self-deportation of Liberals is definitely an added plus to reinstating the draft, but the larger picture is defense of the greatest nation that ever existed.
On September 14, 2001, GW Bush signed Executive Order 13223 which authorized the military to issue stop-loss orders which prevented soldiers from leaving service at the end of their contracts. This was to prevent a loss in troops at a time we needed them the most. Many were given the option to voluntarily extend their contracts with many financial incentives attached to such an extension. Others were simply told that their contracts had been extended per this order.
Why should so few give so much? Especially when so many back home don’t appreciate their sacrifice? I find it humorous to read posts from those that advocate higher taxes and greater entitlement programs and hear so many of you complain about how unfair it is that the rich have more money than you. It is those kinds of people that demand others to sacrifice for their benefit. BUT, when it is expected of them to sacrifice, they protest and call it unfair. It´s perfectly fine for them to call for greater taxation of others, but totally unreasonable to expect them to contribute to the society they freely leech from.
Don’t you just love the Liberal’s double-standards?
Bring on the draft. It’ll help out our troops… and it’ll help the fabric of America by dispelling those that eat at it.
@jenkie Want to see 10-fold the bloodshed and watch Taliban and Al Quaeda forces take over Afghanistan and Iraq? Bring them home.
I haven´t forgotten our other thread,BTW. Just been wrapped up with this one.
@vhan Are you playing hide-and-seek? Where did you disappear to? You´re always so quick to criticize the comments of others, but never offer any contributable dialogue. You opened this can of woop-ass... now come deal with it.
Anyone that offers an opinion that differs from the left is a [insert insult here].
You and many on this site have reconstructed John F. Kennedy´s famous speech to say, "It not what I can do for my country, but what my country can do for me."
Aren´t you the one that thinks successful people are the least deserving of their own hard-earned fortunes? I think *you* would fit into North Korean society much better than me --- you won´t have to fret over those how those evil ole´ rich people are conspiring to make your life miserable, because there aren´t many (if any) over there. Well, except for the dictator that runs the camp, Kim Jong Mentally-Ill.
Seriously, I always have a good laugh when I come into work and read your comments. Even if you´re older than 28 (cut off age for USAF enlistment) you can always go with the reserves.
You really need me to spell out the obvious? You really think that even after the Vietnam war, the draft is still a good idea? There is a big difference between fighting for your country voluntarily and being forced against your will to fight for something you don´t believe in. Do you know the details behind the Vietnam war? Do you know how many innocent people died becuase of that political BS? Do you know how many innocent people are still dying today becuase of it? Do you know how many families suffered becuase their husbands and sons were forced to go fight and die a stupid, pointless death? Now look at how horrible and pointless the Vietnam was was and tell me in all honesty that you would have no problem if your son was drafted to go fight and die in a foreign country that isn´t even attacking us becuase some greedy politician said it is the right thing to do to protect the future interest of our nation. Now I´ve briefly addressed why the draft is evil how about you give some arguments to support why it is a good thing (besides the stupid comment about it will get rid of all the liberals)
just wondering your opinion on one thing (a bit off topic but just curious becuase of your comment on why we keep troops in Iraq and Afghanistan)... Since a lot of terrorists are coming out of Somalia and the state of things in Somalia is pretty horrible right now and arguably worse than Iraq or Afghanistan how come the US military isn´t there? Why is it more important to save Afghanistan from the Taliban rather than save Somalia from the Muslim extremist/terrorists? Somalia is still in a form of anarchy and yet nothing is done to help? What makes Iraq and Afghanistan so special? Not trying to start any debates here, just really curious as to your thoughts on it.
Yeah, my father was one of them. My mistake. I should have said, "Shortly after Vietnam, some people realized how bogus a draft was. And so ever since I´ve been on this earth, it´s been a volunteer service, and that seems to work just fine for every one." My baaad!
Right. You don´t have to tell me that. When I joined, part of me, during the rationalizing process, said, "Well, no one can say I never did my part ." And there are plenty of us willing to make that decision.
I don´t believe everyone has to feel obliged to serve because of the decisions of those before us. It´s a nice, honorable gesture, but I don´t believe anyone would agree with the notion that people should unwillingly be forced into conflict.
Earlier on, I made an error of a remark regarding voluntary service. I stated it "had always been volunteer and should stay that way". Obviously a total slip-up, but the fact that it was halted in 1973 (I did my homework this time) should bring to light some of the issues with having a draft, and what that means in terms of personal freedom. Conscription ignores the morals of the individual, as well as their political stance, and, in some cases, religion.
Besides, the Selective Service program will make sure demands are met in the event of some huge wartime crisis. In the mean time, some branches of the military are actually CUTTING the number of troops in their service. My branch, for example, the Air Force, is cutting 30,000 Airman. I know 2 personally that have already been removed from service. So, they want to cut folks, but, at the same time, they want everyone to serve a mandated term?
Sounds fishy to me. Do they want any type of servicemen, or just infantry men? Have they realized it´s hard for our men and women to fight a war when they just don´t believe in it?
Car said: "George Washington said it best: "... it must be laid down as a primary position and the basis of our (democratic) system, that every citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal service to the defense of it.”
The self-deportation of Liberals is definitely an added plus to reinstating the draft, but the larger picture is defense of the greatest nation that ever existed." ______ But the wars that our troops are sent to fight aren´t to protect our govt. or America. Washington was talking about protecting america but look at every single war since WWII and you will see that none of those wars or battles were ever to protect the USA from a direct threat. Again I go back to the last time the last time the draft was used, the Vietnam war. American citizens were forced to sacrifice their lives, but not for the protection of the govt but for some corrupt, misguided politicians. Sure Sept 11 was a direct attack on America, but it was performed by terrorists, not Iraq. The govt lied constantly about WMDs just to make the American people think that there was a real threat. I mentioned Somalia before...they are pumping out quite a few extremists/terrorists and it is a haven for terrorists from around the world so why is Iraq a greater threat? http://www.washingtontimes.com/... http://www.cfr.org/...
I´m not against protecting my country against invaders but going out and picking fights is not a reason to draft. The Govt has committed enough evil and atrocities over the recent years (from the Start of the Vietnam war till now) to justify NOT fighting their fights. After my time in the military I hated the US govt more than ever. Talk of mandatory drafts when we are not being invaded is just silly because it is immoral to force people to serve (and sometimes to fight and die for) corrupt political and govt. agendas.
USAF is cutting 30k airmen? wow. What kind of discharge are they getting? Do they still get educational benefits like GI Bill and veterans grant?
also a side comment regarding my above post, though I´ve talked in my previous post about hating the US govt, I still enjoyed benefits from being in the military. I couldn´t have afforded my upper education without it, so they are not all evil. I don´t like the military and the US govt because they never take responsibility for their wrongful actions. ie in SE Asia, and S America.
“When I joined, part of me, during the rationalizing process, said, "Well, no one can say I never did my part ." And there are plenty of us willing to make that decision.” And I salute you for doing your part. As a member of the armed services, you have my greatest respect.
“Earlier on, I made an error of a remark regarding voluntary service.” I noticed… and overlooked. The fact you can admit your mistake and move on is very commendable. If only more people possessed such character…
“Conscription ignores the morals of the individual, as well as their political stance, and, in some cases, religion.”
The Lord’s Prayer contains the quote: “Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses,: as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
I’m not suggesting that everyone is a Christian, but the majority of those enlisted *are* Christian (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).
In Matthew 5:39, it say says: “If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also…” Hence the saying of, “turn the other cheek”.
BUT, in Luke 22:36, Jesus told his disciples: “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don´t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
To prevent this post from becoming too religious I’ll stop there. My point is that most religions are not absolute in their passiveness to violence. Self-defense and defense of the weak are also scriptured into most religions. For instance, Shaohu was just asking about Somalia. What should we do about that? Do morals or religion not make exceptions for defending those incapable of defending themselves?
Don’t feel obligated to answer those questions… they weren’t directed towards you as much as they were questioning those that felt their religion/morals exempted them from doing what was right. My point was only to make a point.
“Besides, the Selective Service program will make sure demands are met in the event of some huge wartime crisis.” No. It doesn’t. We are spread thin, even with our draw-down in Iraq. Read this article by Charles Moskos. He was a former draftee and a sociologist of the United States Military and a professor at Northwestern University (died in 2008). He didn’t want to go to war… but he did because he was drafted. And even he understand the importance of serving our country. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/...
“In the mean time, some branches of the military are actually CUTTING the number of troops…” Yes, some are. And some are not. Consider your branch lucky. “Air Force officials used stop loss for Operation Enduring Freedom from Oct. 2, 2001, through Jan. 31, 2003; and Operation Iraqi Freedom from May 2 through Dec. 31, 2003. “ http://www.af.mil/...
The Army hasn’t been as fortunate. Stop-loss has affected them greatly.
To those that *have* served under stop-loss program:
Military personnel who served in Iraq or Afghanistan who were Stop-Lossed between Sept. 11, 2001, and Sept. 30, 2009, are eligible to receive retroactive stop-loss pay. The government owes $500 for every month they were involuntarily extended beyond their normal separation date. Veterans must apply for the money before Dec. 3. For more information or to apply for the Stop-Loss reimbursement, visit the website: http://www.defense.gov/...
@shaohu ““Seriously, I always have a good laugh when I come into work and read your comments.” They say laughter is the best medicine. I’ll send you a bill for my pharmaceutical services.
“Even if you´re older than 28…you can always go with the reserves.” Great idea. Let me know how easy that is for you after you’re married with two toddlers. At my age, I’d simply be going through the same drills and preparations the same weekend every month.
“You really think that even after the Vietnam war, the draft is still a good idea?” Yes. So does my father and older half-brother, who both served in Vietnam.
“There is a big difference between fighting for your country voluntarily and being forced against your will to fight for something you don´t believe in.” Serving your country isn’t always equivalent to serving your beliefs. If there is a conflict, then you need to make a decision… and it better be the right one.
“Do you know the details behind the Vietnam war?” More than I needed to know. Let’s leave it at that.
“Do you know how many innocent people died becuase of that political BS?” Yes. I grew up with my father telling me about how the politicians were telling the troops how to run the war and how much he hated that the people in Washington believed they knew how to win the war better than the guys on the ground. Kind of like how things have been in Afghanistan. My father was with an intelligence officer and my mother worked as a translator at the US embassy in Thailand. I’ve been privy to more information than you or most other people have ever heard.
“There is a big difference between fighting for your country voluntarily and being forced against your will to fight for something you don´t believe in.” You seem to believe that international incidents don’t directly affect you. That’s where you’re wrong. You express this opinion in your follow-up posts, as well. I’ll get to those, tomorrow. For now, let’s just say that you’re very wrong.
“Do you know how many families suffered becuase their husbands and sons were forced to go fight and die a stupid, pointless death?” Yep. You’re talking to a direct member of one of those families, so I’m going to stop with your questions about the Vietnam War right here... at least until we learn a little about shaohu.
It’s obvious that I’m speaking with a youngster. No, I’m not trying to use the term “youngster” in a condescending fashion. I’m simply recognizing the fact that you’re significantly younger than me and you believe that you’re much wiser than your years permit.
How do I know this? Because you went directly from the Vietnam War and went directly to Somalia. I may live in the United States, but I frequently visit Thailand, Vietnam, and the Philippines because I want to remain in touch with my native culture. Within the south-east Asian area, there were many horrible events that took place between the Vietnam War and Somalia… and you didn’t mention a single one. You claim to live in Cambodia so you should know *exactly* what I’m talking about.
How old are you? What do *you* know about the Vietnam War? What do you know about the country and region you claim to live in? Please… do tell. I can tell you plenty about all of them, so don’t question my knowledge of history or understanding about culture in Southeast Asia. You’re not talking to an American without a passport or one that rarely uses it.
As for your other posts… you’re making more that I can keep up with in one tonight. I just posted my response to Dayron and saw that you made two more posts while I was typing it up. It’s getting late on my side of the pond, so I’m purposely going to neglect addressing your follow-posts so that I can get to bed… but I will get to them. Meanwhile, a reciprocal response to my questions would be appreciated, before we proceed.
They´re trying to first cut physical fitness failures, and those who fail to make rank on time. That has lead to many cuts. After they thin the herd that way, they´ll start cutting randomly. I´m sure they´ll try to find a "fair" way to cut folks, but cutting 30,000 is going to lead to a lot of good Airmen being cut, no doubt.
To answer your question: Honorable discharges, and yeah, they still get the GI Bill. I don´t know about VA benefits though. I only tracked situations of those I knew personally who were being cut, and they had no disabilities. I´m sure you can read about the cut though. It was pretty big news little over a year ago. It´s just starting to happen though.
I can´t get into as much as I´d like to at this moment. But on the topic of the Selective Service, I thought that, given the fact that less than 1% of our population serve in the armed services, the selective service (which we all sign up for) would do a lot in terms of manpower. Because, you´re right, we´re totally thinned out right now. But in a time of crisis, if all males 18-25 were pulled for service, that would pretty much do the trick, maybe?
I´m really really short on time, but since you were nice enough to answer my questions, I´ll try to answer a few..I´m mid 30s and served USAF active duty in 3 different countries. How much older than me are you?
I find it very interesting that your father served as intelligence in the military in Vietnam and yet he still supports the Vietnam war and the draft. I´m really looking forward to hearing his reasons for supporting it, because I could never find anything good that came out of the vietnam war. I´ve lived (not just visited) all over Africa, Asia, America, and Europe. Born in the US, raised to be conservative and I share viewpoints with both the left and right. (I don´t think of myself as democrat or republican because they are just the puppets on the left and right.)
And as for your comment about how I jumped from the topic of Vietnam to Somalia... didn´t you read the part where I said, "This is a little off topic but I was just wondering your take..." So no I wasn´t jumping from Vietnam to Somalia, or even claiming they were related, I was just changing topics briefly in the same post because I was curious about a statement you had made earlier about why it is good we are in Iraq. Read it again and you´ll see.
And yes, I know a lot about my country and many other countries in which I´ve lived. (Haven´t lived in Philippines yet, would you recommend it?) Looking forward to reading your take on the Vietnam war and why the draft was/is a good thing.
We’re about the same age... I just didn’t quite pick that up from reading your posts. My father wasn’t for the Vietnam War, but he strongly believed we could have won it if our military leaders didn’t have their hands tied by Washington. He was a strong believer in, “If you’re going to do something, then do it right.” One of his sayings that always stuck with me was, “If you don’t have time to do it right the first time, when *will* you have time?” This has proven especially true in business and software development.
In his role, he made many friends with the Vietnamese people and South Vietnamese officials. He laments the deaths that occurred during the war, and more so the ones that were executed after the fall of Saigon. He didn’t feel the US did all it could to win the war because of political pressures.
He recognizes that war is ugly because he’s seen it first-hand. He spent many years and tours in what was probably the ugliest war (in terms of savagery) that this world has ever known. His explanation for the draft and his reasoning for wanting me to enlist in the Air Force came about when I was asking for a car on my 16th birthday. I wanted something new, sporty, and shiny. I got something that was none of the above.
It was ’73 AMC Hornet (two door coupe). “Slit-pea soup” green in color, with pointed hubcaps, and Bondo all over the body. The Bondo was still rough because it hadn’t been properly sanded or finished. If I went through a puddle of water, the water would splash into the engine compartment and stall the engine. I’d always have to pull off to the side of the road and let the heat of the engine dry it out for at least an hour before it would restart.
Needless to say, I was disappointed and heartbroken when I got *that* car, instead of the one I wanted. His explanation for in getting me this “fine vehicle” was a simple one. If he had just given me what I wanted, I would enjoy it but I wouldn’t appreciate it as much as one that I had poured my heart, soul, and efforts into. He was right. I worked on that Hornet and transformed it from a hoopty into a showpiece, inside and out. I had a lot of pride invested in that car because of what I put into it. I learned his message about appreciation. This lesson ran parallel to why he insisted I joined the Air Force (or any branch of the armed service): Appreciation and instilled pride for one’s country.
I gave you a hard time about your view on rich kids, because not all of them are the self-centered ingrates you painted them to be. Many have been reared properly and were taught great values and principles. On the flip side… there are many that are accustomed to having what they want, when they want it, how they want it, and they believe it should simply be handed to them with no effort on their part – but this mindset transcends classes. It permeates every demographic. It’s a false sense of entitlement that affects children and adults, alike.
Many people take their freedoms for granted and don’t give a second thought as to the price others paid to create and preserve the nation that they enjoy. These are the self-centered “spoiled brats” that gripe and complain about the very nation that allows them to say such things without repercussions. They go through life with only one purpose in mind: self satisfaction with minimal (if any) contribution.
When Bush was in office, these people bashed our men and women in uniform; calling them murderers, baby killers, Nazis, etc, etc, etc. For the most part, all of this was political posturing --- many felt that the military represented an extension of the Bush administration and its policies, and that besmirching those in the military was equivalent to condemning Bush. Very twisted logic, to say the least, but it existed. There were a few members on SN that craved bad news about the military and were quick to be the first to post such news on this site. I’m not suggesting a black-out of such news, but when you see the consistent pattern of “bad news about the military – no good about the military, you can’t help but question their appreciation and pride for the US, or the men and women that defend it… and their right to protest. It’s these people make a draft all the more appealing.
As much as I may disagree with Obama’s policies, you’ll *never* hear me discount or condemn those that honorably serve our nation.
Blame it on my upbringing. Dad did just as great of a job promoting appreciation and pride for my country, as he did with teaching me values and principles.
As for the Vietnam War… I think you’re putting too much emphasis on the outcome of the Vietnam War and the stigma associated with it, and not enough on why we stayed there for as long as we did. If you examine your justifications for having the US help those in Somalia, you will see that they mirror the reasons we remained in Vietnam.
Vietnam and Iraq are similar in that our primary objectives had changed considerably. With Iraq, we invaded with the intent of ousting Saddam. Then the objective changed to policing and securing the country to prevent internal-strife and killings stemming from religious conflicts. Now, the objective is to expel the terrorist insurgents and establish a (somewhat) stable government so the Iraqi people can be self-sufficient.
I only mention Iraq because it’s still fresh on our minds and I wanted to point out how goals and objectives can significantly change throughout the course of a war.
Whether or not we should have set foot in Iraq is debatable, much like the Vietnam War. Many argue that the Vietnam War was one we should have stayed out of. Our primary objective for getting involved was the containment of communism and defending our allies in South Vietnam. Once there, our objectives *significantly* changed from defending the country to protecting the lives of the people in that country. The South Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians did not want us to leave. They knew that if we pulled out, they would have no buffer or protection and there would be many, many, many more deaths than had occurred *during* the war. We maintained a presence to prevent this from happening.
Back in the USA, the hippies and Liberals were bashing our troops. “End the War” and “End the killing” were their ethos. Their blissful ignorance of the political and cultural landscape of Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos led them to believe that the US troops were the bad guys --- not our communist adversaries. They truly believed that if we pulled out of Viet Nam, all the killing would end and the region would once again become peaceful. In their little narrow-minded heads, they genuinely believed they were doing the world a favor by calling for our withdrawal. They patted themselves on the back for being “peace lovers” and when the US pulled out of the Vietnam War in 1975, they felt that they had landed a great victory in the name of “peace”. They were wrong.
Their “victory” had essentially signed the death warrants of millions of people. The killing did not end… it was just getting warmed up.
What followed the US withdrawal was one of the most brutal, savage, and inhuman periods in the world’s history. The North Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge took power. People were tortured and executed by the *millions*. This is why I was surprised that you asked about Somalia, and not about the Khmer Rouge or the Killing Fields of Cambodia --- especially since you live there.
In Cambodia, alone, 20,000 mass-graves were discovered. From 1975 to 1979, 2.5 million people were killed in a country that had a population of 8 million. This past July, Kaing Guek Eav was put on trial for his role in those killings. He was the commander of Tuol Sleng, a Khmer prison in Pol Pot. His one prison, alone, was responsible for the torture and deaths of over 16,000 people. People that were sent to his “prison” were tortured and killed. There was only *one* survivor from that prison. He, his wife, and his daughter were prisoners and forced to dig trenches that were used as mass graves for those that were killed. That survivor told of how his wife and daughter were led away with a half-dozen others one evening. 15 minutes later, he heard several gunshots. He never saw his family again.
There was a tree outside the prison. Babies and children were killed there. They would be lined up and, one by one, they were grabbed by the feet and swung like baseball bats into the trunk of the tree, crushing their skulls and killing them. The Khmer Rouge believed that the children should be killed so they didn’t grow up to become a problem.
When the N. Vietnamese overthrew the Khmer Rouge in 1979, they came across this prison. The commander was racing to kill all the prisoners before the N. Vietnamese reached them. He had succeeded in killing everyone… except that one sole survivor. One of the soldiers that took over the prison described the scene. Gallons of blood everywhere --- new and old. There was a large room where a mattress laid on the floor. The padding had been removed so that the wire frame and the springs were exposed. People were handcuffed to this steel-spring mattress to be tortured and killed.
This was one of many methods they employed to torture the men and women in their prison.
To answer your question about Somalia… American troops won’t be sent to that area. For the same reason they weren’t dispatched to help those that suffered horrible and unimaginable deaths in southeast Asia. And for the same reason they weren’t sent to Rwanda where millions were butchered and killed. So many were killed that the rivers ran red and were dammed up because of the thousands of bodies that clogged them. I could go into more gruesome details, but I think I’ve already conveyed enough of that for the day.
You won’t find Americans setting foot in any of these places because of the lip-service Libs and the disconnection they have with the plights of this world. Their television and the MSM is their sole window to the world --- if it’s not on the television, then it doesn’t exist. If the US were to go to the aid of these people, the Libs would accuse the US of being the aggressors --- not the saviors. In their minds, the US military is an evil entity and they will do anything and everything to undermine their efforts and portray them in the ugliest possible way. All in the name of “peace”.
They believe that everything can be passively and without military conflict. They think that monsters can be bargained with. They’re too wrapped up into their failed ideology to view the world with even the smallest semblance of realism.
Lastly, Americans in general are war-fatigued. You constantly hear the left screaming “bring them home” and “pull out”. Not once do they give consideration that we will have another Cambodian Killing Fields on our hands if we do. Some don’t care because they don’t feel it’s our problem to worry about.
Sometimes I wish I was a blissfully ignorant as the Liberals. Living in an insulated cocoon is sometimes more appealing than learning of and knowing some of these disturbing details. Perhaps that’s why so many choose to live that way.
There was a great article in GQ a few years ago. The author found and interviewed the sole survivor I was speaking about. If you can find it, read it. It’s very graphic, very disturbing, and very sad. It’s one of those types of articles that you can’t put down… but after you finish reading it, you truly wish you hadn’t.
I too enjoyed your story and background, and have a great appreciation for the guidance and values that result from a loving family.
I also value our fighting men and women, and believe they are a crucial element in protecting a country. In order to be effective, a fighting force cannot indulge in the questioning of its duties, but must focus entirely on the tasks at hand; namely staying alive and completing assigned objectives. An army that is unsure whether its actions are just is likely to be ineffectual, and to that end propaganda is often employed by commanders to quell these doubts when they arise. This is accepted as necessary and logical, and I tend to agree with the reasoning. Again, it is not the place of the military to judge policy. I would contend that its rightful place is to defend it.
Because these are our sons and daughters, sisters and brothers who lay their lives on the line, it is the sacred duty of the citizen ensure that they do not sacrifice themselves needlessly, vainly or at the whim of private interests.
This is where principles become relevant. If a principle is sound, it is demonstrably repeatable. Nation building and stamping out ideologies abroad that conflict with our own are two principles that have a very poor track record in terms of lives saved and security maintained. Often, sound principles are distorted, and shaped into mindless slogans; an example of this is the rallying cry "Freedom isn´t free!". Should the drones that invoke this as a battle cry decide to pursue its origin, they will find that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Many a free man throughout history has awoken one day to find that they are no longer free, because they were not paying attention to their own governance.
In light of these observations, the fact that our "debatable justifications" for involvement in foreign wars becomes the prime issue, rather than an afterthought. In fact, our entire foreign policy should be subject to intense scrutiny, rather than hidden in the shadows.
I don´t know if your father mentioned it, but I noticed certain important facts are missing from your narrative; chief among them is the fact that the Khmer Rouge were a minuscule and rag-tag band of guerrillas that only came into prominence as a result of the indiscriminate carpet bombing of Cambodia by the U.S., upon which the peasantry began flocking to the anti-American banner. And how much sooner might the North Vietnamese have curtailed the brutal oppression of the Khmer Rouge, had we not pressed them from all sides? Perhaps the most horrifying piece of hard data, the fact that an administration sold a false flag attack to the American people as a legal justification to "defend the South Vietnamese against communist aggression".
I have no doubt your father was/is a good man; in fact I´m rather envious. Having had no patriarchal influence growing up, I was never able to experience the benefits of strong and patient guidance. But a lesson I have learned repeatedly is that it is important to question, especially when one is expected to obey. So in raising my own children, I seek to illustrate a somewhat different principle; "If you want to do something, first make sure it´s right! Then, do it the best you can."
I don´t have time tonight to illustrate all the absurd happenings that led to the current situations in the middle east, but it´s readily evident that we have been involved with the destabilization and coercion of relevant parties since at least the 1950´s, and the Israeli situation requires little in the way of research to conclude our positions are ludicrous.
All war is savage and brutal, no matter the scale. In times of soveriegn defense, war is supremely just; but the most horrific wars will always be those that are avoidable and preventable.
You still haven´t answered the question as to whether you have served in any branch of the military at any time. I directed that question exactly to your topic, and this post, and you have avoided it each time it has come up. I thought asking a point blank question would infer some form of a response to that question, instead you redirect, or resort to juvenile insults.
The other thread, yes, I directed a comment at you, testing the sociopath comment on this thread.
I truly worry for your well being and the well being of those around you. Typically sociopaths seek out people whom they can abuse and manipulate on a regular basis, who will continue to return to them. Hopefully internet forums are fulfilling these needs and you are not taking it out on people around you.
The glory of the internet is the anonymity. Who you are on this forum reflects almost nothing of who you actually are as a human being. Here, you aren´t entitled to anything. You´re not the most intelligent person I, or anyone here, converses with. You´re not important. I have the luxury of leaving the abuse and manipulation with the click of a button, but the people you deal with in person day to day may not be so lucky.
I strongly encourage you to seek help. Good luck to you and those in your life.
"You still haven´t answered the question..." You noticed. Wow. Nothing gets by you, does it? Your family must be really proud. Those special-ed classes are really paying off.
"I truly worry for your well being and the well being of those around you." That´s so kind of you. If you’re really worried, then prove it by revisiting that other thread wearing your tight miniskirt and pom-poms, again. It would really prove your sincerity to me if you did that. Speaking of that other thread… Did you get all that egg cleaned off your face? Tell us... how humiliating was it to do all that cheering only to find out you had no idea what you were talking about? Were you so humiliated that you now refuse to show your face back in there? Maybe if you did more reading and less trolling, you may have had a clue as to what we were talking about… ya think?
An old school friend of mine sent me this in a mail the other day....
When things in your life seem, almost too much to handle, when 24 Hours in a day is not enough, Remember the mayonnaise jar and 2 cups of coffee. A professor stood before his philosophy class and had some items in front of him. When the class began, wordlessly, He picked up a very large and empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with golf balls. He then asked the students, if the jar was full. They agreed that it was. The professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles rolled into the open Areas between the golf balls. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was. The professor next picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. He asked once more if the jar was full. The students responded with a unanimous ´yes.´ The professor then produced two cups of coffee from under the table and poured the entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the empty space between the sand. The students laughed. ´Now,´ said the professor, as the laughter subsided, ´I want you to recognize that this jar represents your life. The golf balls are the important things - family, children, health, Friends, and Favourite passions – Things that if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would still be full. The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, house, and car. The sand is everything else --The small stuff. ´If you put the sand into the jar first,’ He continued, ´there is no room for the pebbles or the golf balls. The same goes for life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, You will never have room for the things that are important to you. So... Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play With your children. Take time to get pamper yourself. Take your partner out to dinner.
There will always be time to clean the house and wash the windows. ´Take care of the golf balls first -- The things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand.´ One of the students raised her hand and inquired what the coffee represented. The professor smiled. ´I´m glad you asked´. It just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, there´s always room for a couple of cups of coffee with a friend.´
Please share this with other "Golf Balls" I just did... ;)
Look back at that beautiful video clip again that you sent me of your family.
It´s one of those stories you copy and paste to share with others. Very simple, yet very illustrative of the point.
So... what´s a fair maiden doing so far out in these battle grounds? You´re not suppose to show up until after I slay the troll. Hmmmm.... Perhaps I finally did. :)
I got your FB message. Sent you one back.
"Look back at that beautiful video clip again that you sent me of your family." I usually do that about once a month. They grow so fast. My wife thought I was in one of my toy buying binges when I bought the video camera. She was a month away from giving birth to our son and I told her that I wish I had videos of myself from when I was a kid, so that´s why I bought it. Still photos capture a moment in time, but watching those videos is like stepping into a time machine. The voices, the smiles, the sounds... Soon after our son was born, she agreed that the video camera was one of the best purchases I´d ever made.
Have you visited the link, lately? Look at the counter -- there were nearly 7,000 views of that video in the first year! That´s about 20 views a day! That totally blew me away. Looks like my boy has as much charisma as his dad. :P
I was watching that video again last night. That little mite loves his cake so much he was wearing it. Haha. Make is a chocolate one next time that would be even more fun to see, save me a slice before he gets his little fists into it please. It sure entertained my family.