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05/02/2002 04:43 AM ID: 20913 Permalink   

Palestinians Admit: No Massacre in Jenin...only 56 dead, not 500

 

The story feverishly reported as a "Massacre in Jenin" perpetrated by the IDF and denied by Israel from the start has now been denied by the Palestinian Authority themselves.

Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Arafat's Fatah movement, reveals a PA list of dead naming 50 dead and 6 yet unidentified dead Palestinians. Israel had previously stated that they expected the toll to be around 45 to 55 Plaestinians killed.

Widely accepted as fact and reported by western media, the claim of a "massacre" prompted many acts of violence against Jews in Britain, France and Germany including beatings and synagogue burnings.

 
  Source: www.washtimes.com  
    WebReporter: IntelHack Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  12 Comments
  
  heh  
 
What's the bet that as many pro-Israeli readers are going to use this story as a basis to claim that Israel has done absolutely nothing wrong and that everything is justified?

Despite the fact that a massacre did not occur, human rights violations HAVE occured, something that is obvious to anyone who is capable of reading and looking.

The Israelis have broken the Geneva convention several times already; article 147 for instance states that the destruction or removal of property without military justification is illegal, and yet the scene of devastation in Jenin shows that many of the houses have been utterly levelled, and I'm not talking about houses owned by terrorists, I'm talking about houses owned by 70 year old peasants.

Of course, Israel probably does deserve an apology from many of the left-wing media sources for claiming immediately that the army had committed a massacre without any real and substantial proof. Fair's fair, after all.
 
  by: neotek     05/02/2002 06:47 AM     
  War Crimes  
 
"article 147 for instance states that the destruction or removal of property without military justification is illegal, and yet the scene of devastation in Jenin shows that many of the houses have been utterly levelled," - You sound like Arafat. If we can't prove one thing then let's find something else to investigate.
Bring in a UN fact finding mission with experts in the field of military warfare and terrorism. Lets put together forensic information about what really did occur.
I would bet that terrorist were in the homes of the 70 year old man. Building destroyed, well I guess that is a problem with urban warfare. You are in the middle of a city with people firing weapons at you and explosive devices planted everywhere as booby traps (Some palestinians made that claim in a news story a week ago). No don't hurt the buildings. Neotec you're a damn tree hugger aren't you?
 
  by: azianperv     05/02/2002 11:57 AM     
  What about Palestinian War Crimes?  
 
Based on your same assumption of destruction of buildings, then Palestine is equally to be investigated. Most of the palestinian murder bombers blew themselves up in buildings. The fact that they are populated by civilians is second as far as you are concerned.
 
  by: azianperv     05/02/2002 11:59 AM     
  Spare me with the 1st part, Neo.  
 
A societal contribution to military operations defines 'Assymetrical Warfare' and that is what the IDF was up against. Men firing from behind women and children, booby-trapping a young boy with explosives and telling him God wants it so, and surely not inconcievable is the situation where armed militants were battling from within civilian homes. Hell, the militants are civians only until you see them actually holding a weapon or strapping on explosives.

My take is that the tactics employed by the Jenin militants were not simply tactics, but an actual strategy, knowing the Israeli reaction, forseeing the events that would unfold and then use them to garner world outrage at Israel and support for the victimized Palestinians. Rather clever, and strategically speaking, more effective in the court of world opinion than strapping 56 'martyrs' with explosives. More effective to have 56 'marrtyrs' percieved as 'victims'.

You must accept that the PA knows it cannot defeat Israel from within via direct confrontation. It can only defeat them from without with outside (world...UN) support. The strategy was bold, rather smart (relatively) and rather revealing.

If you are going to understand this conflict and coming assymetrical conflicts, you had better learn to think outside the box.

Your take is not all wrong, mind you, you just are looking at it from inside the box like nearly everyone else. Learn to think outside the box.
 
  by: IntelHack     05/02/2002 03:25 PM     
  Warcrimes still needs resolving  
 
Both the Warcrimes done by Palestians
and the Israeli needs to be resolved.
Israels unwillingness to cooperate with
UN doesn't exactly help resolve the situation does it? And I think UN did
stretch themsleves very far to please the Israeli government.
 
  by: satyrkid   05/02/2002 04:20 PM     
  azianperv  
 
From what little I managed to glean from your illiterate rants, I think you're trying to say that the Palestinians have committed war crimes.

Not so.

The Palestinian terrorists are not funded, supported, sanctioned, and owned by the Palestinian authorities, at least not publicly and openly. They're not guilty of war crimes because they (the organisations responsible for the bombings) are not a country and are therefore incapable of committing an act of war.

They are, however, terrorists, and on that basis alone they should be brought to justice. Nobody debates this. Nor does anybody with any intelligence support the physical action of destruction the suicide bombers are committing. It doesn't solve anything, creates more and more tension, and leads people like you to assume that Israel is blameless and wholly justified no matter how much carnage they are responsible for.

You're more than willing to see Palestinian innocents killed, but when there is even the slightest suggestion of an Israeli death you screech about how evil the Palestinians are and how Israel is well within its rights to violate basic international laws to which they are a signatory. Can you deny the fact that Israel has, no matter what it is, done SOMETHING wrong at Jenin?

And finally a quote concerning the casualties suffered on both sides.

"AFP's latest death tally for the Palestinian uprising against 34 years of Israeli military occupation comes out to 13 Arab Israelis, 563 Palestinians, and 146 Israelis, putting the ratio of casualties at around four Palestinians killed for every Israeli loss.

Israel's wounded number in the high hundreds, according to army sources, while the Palestine Red Crescent Society puts the number of Palestinians injured at over 14,000.
Amnesty International reported early this year that almost 100 Palestinian children had been killed by Israeli soldiers, nearly all in situations where the occupation troops were under no immediate threat."

Rationalise that.

^^^Comment edited by admin^^^
 
  by: neotek     05/02/2002 04:55 PM     
  IntelHack  
 
Just a few comments regarding your post:

"Men firing from behind women and children.."
That sounds suspiciously like what the Israelis have been doing, using hostages as human shields.

"..booby-trapping a young boy with explosives and telling him God wants it so.."
What's the difference between doing that and putting an automatic weapon into the hands of a teenager and telling him to kill Palestinians because his government wants him to?

"..and surely not inconcievable is the situation where armed militants were battling from within civilian homes."
Agreed, and I can *totally* see why they'd have to then run a large tank over the houses. Probably just to make really sure that those filthy septagenarians don't manage to salvage what little they have left of their lives.

"Hell, the militants are civians (sic) only until you see them actually holding a weapon or strapping on explosives."
That's why you have to shoot the women and children as well, I suppose.

"My take is that the tactics employed by the Jenin militants were not simply tactics, but an actual strategy, knowing the Israeli reaction, forseeing the events that would unfold and then use them to garner world outrage at Israel and support for the victimized Palestinians."
So they bulldozed their own houses using their magical invisible tanks and killed themselves to make the Israelis look bad. You, sir, are a strategic GENIUS.

"You must accept that the PA knows it cannot defeat Israel from within via direct confrontation."
Of course. The Israelis get $3bn of aid from the US, the Palestinians get their land taken from them and have to make their weapons from the only low-grade shit they can afford. Fair's fair, right?

"It can only defeat them from without with outside (world...UN) support. The strategy was bold, rather smart (relatively) and rather revealing."
How dare they seek help?

"..you had better learn to think outside the box."
The matrix has you, etc etc.

^^^Commented edited by Admin^^^
 
  by: neotek     05/02/2002 05:00 PM     
  Best use of grammar yet, Neo...  
 
...though your logic remains woefully inept. You are an angry young man, I surmise, who directs it towards the nearest form of authority.

The 'matrix has' me? The BOX has you, sir. Just can't get out and you don't even know it. You have painted the inside of the box with a tapestry of what you think is outside and convinced yourself it is fact.

Invisible bulldozers and tanks? I am confident that you actually understand the strategy I described, and are just too defiant to outwardly recognize it. The whole point for them is that it was NOT Palestinian 'invisible tanks' that brought down the buildings, but rather (and by design) Israeli tanks that did it. Willing or unwilling, the PA (Fatah wing), Hamas, Islamic Jihad and/or whoever else was actively involved in the planning created 56 'martyrs' to (in their eyes) further their cause. No doubt, some were unwitting 'martyrs'.

The whole point is that, in assymetrical warfare, the focus is not on weaponry but leveraging assets. Firing at soldiers from behind women and children is leveraging the militant and his rifle to its maximum by reducing the chances and effectiveness of potential returned fire. Americans are very hesitant to fire into a crowd when they see women and children. However, when the situation is recognized...if it is not too late...and an individual or sqaud's survival is at stake, it comes down to them or me, civilians or not. After the fact, a brilliant analyst will claim an attrocity has occured. Agreed. But what is the attrocity? Civilian collateral damage in a fight for survival or the intentional use of civilians as a leveraging shield?

If you have never felt the sting and lived with the consequences of your decision to live and save the men you are with, then you will continue to justify your self-righteousness.

I think I am done with you now.
 
  by: IntelHack     05/02/2002 06:56 PM     
  Best sue of grammar yet, Neo...  
 
...though your logic remains woefully inept. You are an angry young man, I surmise, who directs it towards the nearest form of authority.

The 'matrix has' me? The BOX has you, sir. Just can't get out and you don't even know it. You have painted the inside of the box with a tapestry of what you think is outside and convinced yourself it is fact.

Invisible bulldozers and tanks? I am confident that you actually understand the strategy I described, and are just too defiant to outwardly recognize it. The whole point for them is that it was NOT Palestinian 'invisible tanks' that brought down the buildings, but rather (and by design) Israeli tanks that did it. Willing or unwilling, the PA (Fatah wing), Hamas, Islamic Jihad and/or whoever else was actively involved in the planning created 56 'martyrs' to (in their eyes) further their cause. No doubt, some were unwitting 'martyrs'.

The whole point is that, in assymetrical warfare, the focus is not on weaponry but leveraging assets. Firing at soldiers from behind women and children is leveraging the militant and his rifle to its maximum by reducing the chances and effectiveness of potential returned fire. Americans are very hesitant to fire into a crowd when they see women and children. However, when the situation is recognized...if it is not too late...and an individual or sqaud's survival is at stake, it comes down to them or me, civilians or not. After the fact, a brilliant analyst will claim an attrocity has occured. Agreed. But what is the attrocity? Civilian collateral damage in a fight for survival or the intentional use of civilians as a leveraging shield?

If you have never felt the sting and lived with the consequences of your decision to live and save the men you are with, then you will continue to justify your self-righteousness.

I think I am done with you now.
 
  by: IntelHack     05/02/2002 06:57 PM     
  Another illiterate post by the perv  
 
"The Palestinian terrorists are not funded, supported, sanctioned, and owned by the Palestinian authorities, at least not publicly and openly. " - I like the last line of that at least not pbulicly and openly... However where are they funded from. Saddam $25,000, Saudis $5000 and that is just the rate for suicide bombers. They do not get their weaponry from no where someone supplies them. Many of the funds setup for the palestinians go to mr. arafat. Who still has ties to known terrorist organizations. The simple fact that is overlooked.
Mr. Arafats own compound was filled with terrorist that were are Israels wanted list. Yet Mr. Arafat provided sanction and supplies to them. Mr. Arafat has released known terrorist convicted of terrorism from jail so that they could attack Israel. If these are not state sponsored then nothing is.

"however, terrorists, and on that basis alone they should be brought to justice. Nobody debates this. Nor does anybody with any intelligence support the physical action of destruction the suicide bombers are committing" - We see this being dome by the PA everyday correct????

"leads people like you to assume that Israel is blameless and wholly justified no matter how much carnage they are responsible for." - If your literate skills were so well honed then you would have read other items that I have written and know that I believe both sides are at fault and wrong.

"Can you deny the fact that Israel has, no matter what it is, done SOMETHING wrong at Jenin?" - Once evidence is provided that shows this. You are speculating on what happened. You see pictures and video and make your own assumptions of what occured.

As for the casualty numbers, it does not matter. Both sides are wrong end of story. One from either side is too many as far as I am concerned. Get the point.

As for illiterte - The post was because your statements do exactly what you are saying... ONE SIDED. All I did was present the other side. Try reading and thinking about what a response is. I am not trying to prove your point or even disprove it. I am simply presenting both sides.

Nice temper btw, needing to be edited out by the admin...Wish I could have read it before it was edited.

 
  by: azianperv     05/02/2002 07:07 PM     
  Is the UN unfriendly to Israel?  
 
Some uninformed do not buy my interpretation that the very creator of Israel resents its existence.

This link itemizes specifics very well. VERY well, indeed.

http://www.washtimes.com/...

I am not of the thinking that Israel can do no wrong, but I have recognized that there is an overwhelming majority of nations and organizations waiting to line up in opposition...almost like they are just looking for an event that will serve as plausible deniability to cover true motives for opposition.

Give it a read. His facts are verifiable, his sources solid. If you like, toss out his opinion and just read the bulleted facts in the middle of the story.
 
  by: IntelHack     05/02/2002 08:19 PM     
  Photo's of Jenin  
 
Photo 1: Fairly Close
http://communities.msn.com/...
Photo 2: A slightly wider angle
http://communities.msn.com/...
Photo 3: Overall Town
http://communities.msn.com/...
 
  by: azianperv     05/04/2002 10:25 PM     
 
 
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