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11/19/2004 03:24 PM ID: 44536 Permalink   

New Bible Translation Stirs Controversy

 

Robert Alter’s new translation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible have caused some controversy in certain circles. The most well known line, “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth” has been changed.

Alter’s translation reads “When God began creating the heaven and the earth…” Alter’s translation is an effort to return the Bible back to its Hebrew roots with a more direct translation, which is being praised by some.

Alter’s says he began translating the Bible, from Genesis to the death of Moses, because he couldn’t find an accurate translation of the original Hebrew text, going so far as to say that the Bible available now is full of “embarrassing inaccuracies.”

 
  Source: story.news.yahoo.com  
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ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  81 Comments
  
  Time for another I learned som  
 
The bible is a book made 2000 years ago by some guys wandering with jesus.It's not hard cash but rather story to make you learn the life principle,be a good neighgbor,help others in needs and all that the rest is just frosting like a good novel so who cares if it wrongly translated if the core of the message is still there?
 
  by: Korzen   11/19/2004 06:50 PM     
  “embarrassing inaccuracies” in the bible! No.  
 
There is at least one story in the bible that's definately untrue. The one about some cult leader named jesus. Other than that it's a riotous romp of fun and frivolity.
 
  by: unit 1010011010   11/19/2004 06:56 PM     
  Sure.  
 
Obey or die.

No need to translate much for that kind of message :)
 
  by: Veritek   11/19/2004 07:01 PM     
  [deleted by admin]  
 
[deleted by admin]
 
  by: unit 1010011010   11/19/2004 07:02 PM     
  Oops  
 
Sorry guys, Jesus ain't in the 5 books of the Hebrew Bible.
 
  by: Azerbaijan Mahoney   11/19/2004 10:00 PM     
  [deleted by admin]  
 
[deleted]
 
  by: foahchon.   11/19/2004 10:55 PM     
  LOL  
 
When I saw the title the only thing I could think of is "Oh crap! They're translating it to Klingon!" ;)
 
  by: treyjazz   11/19/2004 11:52 PM     
  well  
 
well god says do not translate his words into your own, like the king james version, it says what the hebrew says just translated into english, this man is making up what he wants, and he is going to hell, he can do what he wants but its not very smart to change the word of god.
 
  by: groomsy     11/19/2004 11:55 PM     
  @groomsy  
 
Isn't the whole point of this guy's translation to be more accurate than other Bibles? At least that looks like what the news story is saying. Just the religious people don't like it because it might reveal some faults in existing Bibles?
 
  by: treyjazz   11/20/2004 12:01 AM     
  @trey  
 
i'm a christian and i dont care what hes doing but the thing is his words may not be right, and i know religions will say there not, but its kind of hard taking a 2000 year old book and remake it having people believe what he says is right.
 
  by: groomsy     11/20/2004 12:09 AM     
  foahchon & groomsy  
 
useless comment foahchon. My comment was on the bible as a whole, not just the first five books. If you're offended explain what offends you. and by the way, since when does ignorance have an odour? If ignorance stank no one would be able to approach a church or temple of any sort for it is only ignorance of their own religion's founding that allows the believers to keep on doing so. Actual factual knowledge about any religion can only cause it's abandonment. there are so many mis-translations or transliterations in the word-of-god that if all were fixed there would be a fundamental change to religion, something the heirachy would never allow. As for the "original hebrew text" over a quarter of the words used in it didn't exist in any other hebrew writings until hundreds of years later, but hey you don't want intelligent debate, no believer does, it only serves to shake their beliefs and we can't have that. Whole-hearted faith in the improbable is easier on the fragile minds of the people than the reality that it's just us, no higher being, no bullshit, no destiny, merely a race of gullible fools hoping that nothing is their responsibility, it's all gods mysterious work. and groomsy how many experts would it take to convince you it's full of faults?
 
  by: unit 1010011010   11/20/2004 01:12 AM     
  @groomsy  
 
If you think the King James version is a correct translation from the original text, you and millions of others are mistaken. There were books deleted and re-writes to reflect the politics of the time. I know you won't believe me, because I grew up in a culture that believed every word of the King James version was the word of God as he spoke it through the scribes, and none of them would believe otherwise, but they are all wrong. There are many documented translation errors.
 
  by: lurker     11/20/2004 01:15 AM     
  @unit 1010011010  
 
Were can we buy other unit like you? :D
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 01:45 AM     
  groomsy, lurker  
 
groomsy: You made a mistake, it says in Rev. 22:18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;"

So now God expects us to learn Aramaic/Latin/Greek so that we can know what the Bible says? Nonsense.

lurker: The KJV is considered the autoritative translation. I am not entirely certain as to why, perhaps because it is the first. However, your assertions of at-the-time-politics and other 'influences' of the writings have already been dispelled and decidedly conclude as simply wrong. Read up on material by Josh McDowell. You can find out some interesting things about the Bible, like the fact that the NT texts have more credibility than any other ancient writing, with more manuscripts than other ancient writings combined (if I remember right, the next is Homer's Iliad, with only several hundred copies and this text was written long after he was dead, yet they're considered accurate).

Do the research my friend, the truth is out there.

http://www.josh.org/...
 
  by: Urmac     11/20/2004 01:51 AM     
  Big Deal  
 
First off he just translated the Pentateuch (aka The Torah).
Secondly, Translating Old Hebrew into Modern day English is quite a challenge. Some hebrew words written down in the earliest version of the Pentatech don't exsist in the English language. And the real challenge comes when you have to put all the words together and make sense out of it. A good example is have you ever watched a Japanese comic or someone out of North America make a joke and you read the subtitles and you didn't get it. Thats kind of what is going on with the translations. I personally don't like the KJV as it is difficult for me to understand because of its Old English 'slang'. I prefer the NIV because its more down to earth and alot easier to understand. But my point is people shouldn't make such a big deal about translations as the fact that it all says the same thing just in diffrent ways. The only way you can absouletly be sure your reading the words of God is by understanding Hebrew and finding the orignal documents written by Moses 1700 years ago.
Oh and yes, the first 5 books talk nothing about Jesus. If your intrested in seeing a good website with all kinds of translations including the Orignal Hebrew version, go to http://www.blueletterbible.com

I pray for people like you unit 1010011010. You are God's creation, but you have free will to accept the fact he exsists or not. God won't make the choice for you, you have to accept it.
 
  by: phaux   11/20/2004 01:53 AM     
  Give up these fairytales. there is no god. (nt)  
 
it's about time folks grew up and left religion behind.
 
  by: sparky_fox   11/20/2004 02:44 AM     
  WOW... whats this i see, before me  
 
"The only way you can absouletly be sure your reading the words of God is by understanding Hebrew and finding the orignal documents written by Moses 1700 years ago."

thats an funny account of history... as that would be after the time of jesus (if infact he ever existed) 1700 years ago would be 300CE whereas mosaic law was written alittle more than 3240 years ago or 1240BCE (this is the date i have for the Exodus book).

phaux for a christian, thats pretty bad...don't be too hard on yourself you were only off by some 1540 years...

as for you praying for unit 1010011010, as not to speak for him (possibly her) but i'd imagine unit is probably having a good gut laugh about that... i usually do when people say they'll pray for me.

hell if you wanna pray then pray, you want to believe the bible believe it, you wanna jump off a cliff, try a running start.

i wont stop ya, i doubt unit would either, though again i won't speak for unit... unit is perfectly capable of this himself.

i agree with veritek about unit
"Were can we buy other unit like you? :D"
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 03:06 AM     
  @unit  
 
"useless comment foahchon. My comment was on the bible as a whole, not just the first five books. If you're offended explain what offends you."

Your ignorance.

"and by the way, since when does ignorance have an odour?"

Since the birth of figurative speech.

"If ignorance stank no one would be able to approach a church or temple of any sort for it is only ignorance of their own religion's founding that allows the believers to keep on doing so."

Oh, and I suppose you know a whole lot about how say, Judaism, or Christianity, was founded, in opposition to what the Bible has to say about it, huh? Let me guess, your theory is that "Well, some guys were sitting around bored one night, so they decided to write a book, or a bunch of books, and then suckered a bunch of people into believing it, and Judaism/Christianity is the result." Am I close?

"Actual factual knowledge about any religion can only cause it's abandonment. there are so many mis-translations or transliterations in the word-of-god that if all were fixed there would be a fundamental change to religion, something the heirachy would never allow."

Ah, another conspiracy theorist. There's hidden features of "religion" that the church doesn't want you to know about, right? Everyone knows the church controls all of the information available about the original manuscripts from which we get the books in our Bible.

Truth is, what we have now is a pretty darn accurate representation of what's been around for thousands of years.

"As for the "original hebrew text" over a quarter of the words used in it didn't exist in any other hebrew writings until hundreds of years later, but hey you don't want intelligent debate, no believer does, it only serves to shake their beliefs and we can't have that."

You speak of intelligent debate as if you know what it actually is.

Anyway, some less-vague/less-general statements would be helpful in making this exchange productive.

"Whole-hearted faith in the improbable is easier on the fragile minds of the people than the reality that it's just us, no higher being, no bullshit, no destiny, merely a race of gullible fools hoping that nothing is their responsibility, it's all gods mysterious work."

Projecting your ignorance about what people believe isn't helping you any.

To say that God or Christianity's claims are improbable is begging the question.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 03:06 AM     
  @unit  
 
"useless comment foahchon. My comment was on the bible as a whole, not just the first five books. If you're offended explain what offends you."

Your ignorance.

"and by the way, since when does ignorance have an odour?"

Since the birth of figurative speech.

"If ignorance stank no one would be able to approach a church or temple of any sort for it is only ignorance of their own religion's founding that allows the believers to keep on doing so."

Oh, and I suppose you know a whole lot about how say, Judaism, or Christianity, was founded, in opposition to what the Bible has to say about it, huh? Let me guess, your theory is that "Well, some guys were sitting around bored one night, so they decided to write a book, or a bunch of books, and then suckered a bunch of people into believing it, and Judaism/Christianity is the result." Am I close?

"Actual factual knowledge about any religion can only cause it's abandonment. there are so many mis-translations or transliterations in the word-of-god that if all were fixed there would be a fundamental change to religion, something the heirachy would never allow."

Ah, another conspiracy theorist. There's hidden features of "religion" that the church doesn't want you to know about, right? Everyone knows the church controls all of the information available about the original manuscripts from which we get the books in our Bible.

Truth is, what we have now is a pretty darn accurate representation of what's been around for thousands of years.

"As for the "original hebrew text" over a quarter of the words used in it didn't exist in any other hebrew writings until hundreds of years later, but hey you don't want intelligent debate, no believer does, it only serves to shake their beliefs and we can't have that."

You speak of intelligent debate as if you know what it actually is.

Anyway, some less-vague/less-general statements would be helpful in making this exchange productive.

"Whole-hearted faith in the improbable is easier on the fragile minds of the people than the reality that it's just us, no higher being, no bullshit, no destiny, merely a race of gullible fools hoping that nothing is their responsibility, it's all gods mysterious work."

Projecting your ignorance about what people believe isn't helping you any.

To say that God or Christianity's claims are improbable is begging the question.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 03:15 AM     
  @Urmac @phaux @foahchon.  
 
To all those sheeps, who believe that a superior being created us all and everything. Tell me my friends. Is your god all powerfull and knowledgable (Is that the word even the word?).
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 03:19 AM     
  @Veritek  
 
I think you know the answer to that one, in spite of knowing next to nothing about something you're attempting to effectively criticize.

So, are you trying to affirm your ignorance, or are you going to make a point?
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 03:27 AM     
  @Veritek  
 
Yep. Need Proof?

Matthew 7:7
Matthew 20:22
Luke 11:9
John 15:7
James 1:5
Psalms 2:8

Basically God says: "Ask and you shall recieve."

:D
 
  by: phaux   11/20/2004 03:31 AM     
  @HAVOC666  
 
I admit, you were right. I confess I'm not a pastor or anything and I dont have these dates memorized. 1445bc is the approx. date Moses started writing Genesis. So I guess that would make it 3449 years. Better?

I'm not praying for Unit in particular, I'm praying for the lost sheep of the Shepard... like you. And thank-you I will keep doing it.
 
  by: phaux   11/20/2004 03:48 AM     
  @foahchon. @phaux  
 
Making a point.

I want... I want... Cookies!
*Still waiting for those godly cookies*
Frankly, I dont have a bible, and most likely never will. This is not the kind of book that I have. Id rather have something from Nietsch or Marx.
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 04:10 AM     
  @Veritek  
 
Your preference for Nietzsche and Marx would explain you not knowing anything about theology.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 04:24 AM     
  Then my friend...  
 
Answer my most simple question. Is god all powerful and knowledgable? :)

And let me make my point =p
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 04:34 AM     
  No one's stopping you...  
 
Nothing's stopping you from making your point aside from your own pretentiousness, but if it'll make you happy, yes, God's all-knowing and all-powerful.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 04:39 AM     
  @foahchon.  
 
"Oh, and I suppose you know a whole lot about how say, Judaism, or Christianity, was founded, in opposition to what the Bible has to say about it, huh? Let me guess, your theory is that "Well, some guys were sitting around bored one night, so they decided to write a book, or a bunch of books, and then suckered a bunch of people into believing it, and Judaism/Christianity is the result." Am I close?"

actually believe it or not, this has happened, mark twain was involve in the contest, yes it was a contest between him and 1 or 2 other people, mark twain lost. the competition was to see who could make a religion and get people to follow it first...

this has happened... and probably more often than just this one time, to rule out that possibility would make you foolish.

"Truth is, what we have now is a pretty darn accurate representation of what's been around for thousands of years."

ummm, are you aware that one of the 10 commandment was mistranslated, "thou shalt not kill" is actually "thou shalt not murder"... might be a smal detail to some, but one word can change the meaning and killing and murder aren't quite the same.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 04:50 AM     
  @veritek  
 
Nietsch?

hmmm i've have this name before, i was recommended a few years back to read up on this person, but it just occured to me when i read it in your comment.

i can't remember who he is, if i ever knew, and if you wouldn't mind suggest me some internets sites and/or books.

and if marx refers to Karl Marx, then i know of him, i still have to get ahold of his communist manifesto, again.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 04:54 AM     
  @foahchon.  
 
Thus your god has the power to make an unmovable mountain?
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 04:58 AM     
  @HAVOC666  
 
Frederic Nietsch, this guy is very interesting to read, I do not agree with everything, but you should definitively read on him.

As of Karl Marx, he had a dream, a dream that would requires human to not have human nature. But still, some part of his dream are worth and can be applied in society, and are actually in Canada, and even more in Quebec.
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 05:04 AM     
  @veritek  
 
as a canadian myself that makes the read even more worth it.
might one part that was in his idea the canadian healthcare system?, that would be my best guess.

i'm actually in ontario, not very familar with life inside quebec, and i do speak french, much more then hello and goodbye (in french), she i can't communicate with some of them so well... i have talk to a few quebecer's but some of them its obvious english is there secondary language.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 05:19 AM     
  Urmac  
 
What makes Josh McDowell a so-called expert on anything? Anyone can write and say anything--look at the internet!
I don't believe everything on the web, and I don't believe everything I read. I should have been born in Missouri, but I wasn't. You can't prove a book by quoting from the same book, either.
 
  by: lurker     11/20/2004 05:21 AM     
  @Veritek  
 
Oh, I suppose you're gonna try and corner me with your cornball reasoning into a position where I'm forced to admit that God can't be all-powerful, and that omnipotence is illogical, because if God can't move the mountain, then He's obviously not all-powerful, but if He can't create a mountain that's unmoveable, that also prevents Him from being all-powerful, right? Oldest and corniest trick in the book...

But anyway, here's the problem: the definition of the object is self-contradictory (object is so big that an all-powerful being cannot lift it. The definition of the object (mountain) is nonsensical.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 05:28 AM     
  @foahchon.  
 
Exactly, we could do it with a cherry too. My point being, etheir god does not exist, at least, the omnipotent god does not. And by my definition of a god, he has to be omnipotent, thus god does not exist. God is self contradictory.

The same way that, could god kill god?
If he does, he is obciously not omnipotent. And if he can, yet an other exemple that he is not omnipotent.

You have the right to be wrong anyway ;)
As I have as well, because of course, I am no god, I could be wrong.

At least I do not plan my life to answer an imaginary being who is all about "obey me or die".

Reminds me a certain country south of mine... Interesting.
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 05:37 AM     
  ok  
 
noone makes you believe in god like noone makes you believe in him, if you dont believe thats swell and dandy, i dont care as i dont know you, believe what you want i believe what i want, no harm done.
 
  by: groomsy     11/20/2004 05:38 AM     
  @HAVOC666  
 
You know all those care thing that the right wingies of the US hate so much, they come from Marx theories, mostly ;)

Btw : Russian communism is better called stalinism.
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 05:39 AM     
  @Veritek  
 
Pick any object you want, the question is still self-contradictory. In the case of the mountain, such a mountain could not exist if God is all-powerful. Therefore, your objection is nonsensical, and all you've proven is that your ability to reason is less-than-adequate. I doubt this will help you understand your fallacy, but here is a link that explains how your objection is nonsensical:

http://www.tektonics.org/...

As for the "worship me or die" bit, again you're just projecting your ignorance about what others believe and you're obviously quite ignorant of the character of God (no surprise there). Please try studying and understanding something before attempting to criticize it, instead of uncritically accepting what some theologically-ignorant philosophers had to say about it, or some postmodern neophytes.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 06:08 AM     
  and now for a quote from homer...  
 
homer simpson that is

"could jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?"

seriously though its point is valid by the defition of "god" that the majority of people believe (christians and muslims ect alike) can't exist.

either answer ends in a logical contradiction, and a logical contradiction can't occur.

apply this to something that can but doesn't need to in "god". can a kettle be both all black and all white at the same time?

its a rhetorical question by now.

it can't occur, its just impossible, if there is even one thing "god" can't do, it isn't by the definition of the majority of believer in "god" as "god", as it wouldn't be all powerful.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 06:09 AM     
  lurker  
 
Josh McDowell is a so-called expert because he dedicated his life to the cause he is performing. What makes a scholar a scholar, a doctor a doctor, a politician a policitian, or historian a historian? The fact that they thoroughly studied, that they went the extra mile ten times over so that they excelled in their fields, the fact that a part of their lives are dedicated to whatever it is they are focusing on.

He isn't a Joe Schmo pulling fairy tales out of the air, he has based his conclusions and statements upon solidified facts which, through extreme scrutiny, exhaustive questioning, and overwhelming dbouts, have stood the test better than anything else that was put to the test.

Don't want to accept the Bible? That's fine, but I would suggest you to look at all the facts and do all the research before you draw such a big conclusion and yet only look at one side, which the side you choose to suit your needs and desires.

The undeniable, indisputable, irrefutable, and conclusive information is available and out in the open; as one who makes such a big claim, I would expect the decency, intillect, and integrity to do the full scope of research, instead of blindly saying that what you say is fact, think people like me are crazy, and that people like Josh McDowell, who have dedicated their lives to things like this, cannot be considered an expert.

Lurker, my friend, that type of logic is void of any shred of common sense. If you would only do the complete research, then you would get the full picture, but until then, you only know one side (which fits your side) of the story, as do most, if not all, here.
 
  by: Urmac     11/20/2004 06:33 AM     
  Bottom line  
 
The existance of God (or whomever you want to refer to the higher power as) can't be proven. That is the reason why religions are called faiths. It takes a person's faith in there being the higher power.
 
  by: treyjazz   11/20/2004 07:37 AM     
  @foahchon. Where to start? hmmm. . . .  
 
My knowledge on the subject would be based on the conclusions reached after four years of theological studies and four years of ancient history with honours in ancient languages, but hey I'm, sure you wouldn't enter into an argument without knowing what you're talking about would you?
What on earth gave you the idea that I'm a conspiracy theorist. I'm a realist. That precludes me from any chance of being a conspiracy theorist.
As for the debating, sorry again, I was twice college finalist in team debating.
Sorry to spoil your day but this wasn't a serious endeavour, a colleague of mine and some of my better students occasionally enter chat or feedback type sites as an exercise in human behaviour and the role of language as a defence mechanism so we find subjects guaranteed to provide a knee-jerk reaction to provocation, such as bigots and zealots, plus it's fun to bait the 'fundies' (that's a derogatory slur against fundamentalist theists) just to see them squirm.
O.K. It's purile , but damn it's funny. Thanks for playing another exiting round of "Belittle The Brainless".

p.s. I can't wait to add your comments to the class intranet site though to be honest this one was way too easy, they'll love it though. Once again. Thanks.
 
  by: unit 1010011010   11/20/2004 09:33 AM     
  the iressitable force/imoveable object  
 
would be a filing of your language not Gods powers.
And for the record, I find it impossible to believe in a being more powerful or knowledgable than myself
 
  by: Necralis   11/20/2004 12:32 PM     
  @unit  
 
"My knowledge on the subject would be based on the conclusions reached after four years of theological studies and four years of ancient history with honours in ancient languages, but hey I'm, sure you wouldn't enter into an argument without knowing what you're talking about would you?"

Apparently you don't have a problem getting into an argument without knowing what you're talking about. In fact all you've done so far is flash some credentials, not put them to use. Why don't you use that vast knowledge of yours to make an actual argument?

"What on earth gave you the idea that I'm a conspiracy theorist. I'm a realist. That precludes me from any chance of being a conspiracy theorist."

No, the church's control all of the available information about the origins of the Bible, it's contents, or Christianity, or Judaism, whatever, only exists inside your head.

"As for the debating, sorry again, I was twice college finalist in team debating."

Well, seeing as how most college students, be it local or state, have the logical capacities of sixth-graders, that's hardly impressive.

"Sorry to spoil your day but this wasn't a serious endeavour, a colleague of mine and some of my better students occasionally enter chat or feedback type sites as an exercise in human behaviour and the role of language as a defence mechanism so we find subjects guaranteed to provide a knee-jerk reaction to provocation, such as bigots and zealots, plus it's fun to bait the 'fundies' (that's a derogatory slur against fundamentalist theists) just to see them squirm."

Yeah, ok. You're not fooling anybody with your manipulation, unit. You're just trying to squirm out of an actual argumentative exchange with someone who actually knows something (me), and you're scared because you don't know what to do now that you've met an informed Christian that's not intimidated or fooled by your vague, general arguments and further intimidation tactics of flashing credentials that, apparently, haven't you learned you a darn thing.

"O.K. It's purile , but damn it's funny. Thanks for playing another exiting round of "Belittle The Brainless"."

No, thank you, I had fun belittling you.

"p.s. I can't wait to add your comments to the class intranet site though to be honest this one was way too easy, they'll love it though. Once again. Thanks."

Yes, you and your classmates need to nurture each other's ignorance.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 03:27 PM     
  @foahchon.  
 
Well then, I ask you, prove me that God exist, without any doubts. Because I know that your far to into that "lets say its god fault if were morons" that I could make any point with you.
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 04:25 PM     
  Well,  
 
there is no use discussing religion or politics when there is no meeting of the minds. The following mixes both and was a letter to the editor in my morning paper:
I am disturbed at this pseudo "Christianity" which now prevails in America. "Christian" means followers of the teachings of Christ. The neo-religion of the Republican Party is the antithesis of his teachings.
Jesus came to the poor, the sick, the homeless, the outcast of society. Jesus said "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto these, ye have done it unto me," "perfect love casteth out all fear," "love your enemies," "turn the other cheek."
To the rich young ruler, "Sell all you have and give it to the poor." "I will not fear the terror by night nor the arrow that flieth by day." "If ye have not the spirit of Christ, ye are none of his." "The fruits of the Spirit are: peace, love, forgiveness, compassion and humility." It is not the spirit of fear, hate, greed or war, an oppression which now dominates America.
For George Bush or the religious right to say that God called him to do these things borders on blasphemy.
It may be religion; it certainly is not Christianity. "Ye cannot serve two masters." God does not have two faces.
 
  by: lurker     11/20/2004 04:56 PM     
  @Urmac  
 
One last thing. You said "you only know one side (which fits your side)".
Believe me, I know all sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist. I gave up on their closed mindedness and became a Methodist (gave up on them, also). Now I'm more of an agnostic. I have very little use for organized religion.
 
  by: lurker     11/20/2004 06:45 PM     
  Be that as it may...  
 
Even if you were involved in several different churches (as I have been), you still do not get the whole picture. I do not know the information I have seen because I attended different churches, because I took the time to read on material that some pastor's don't even know exist.

The arguments that I use are not what preachers say from the pulpit, in fact, unless you go to a church that has a heavy focus on Apologetics, you more than likely will hardly ever, IF EVER, hear any of the arguments that I raise and use.

So, I'll reissue my ascertion: you do not know both sides because you have not done the research. Being around pastors and different denominations does not qualify as getting all sides; to illustrate it: some don't even get as little as the tip of the iceburg.
 
  by: Urmac     11/20/2004 07:31 PM     
  Veritek, I've got proof  
 
Look around you. Look everywhere you can. See every single person, every bird, every tree, flower, rock, grass, dog, cat, horse, apple, banana, hill, mountain, cloud, sky, star, moon, sun, etc. etc. etc.

Look at everything around you. The biggest piece of evidence of God's existence is everywhere you turn, in fact, for one to not be around God's creation is to not be present whatsoever.

Sure, this isn't good enough for you, but hey, it's proof. Evolution? Don't make me laugh. I had this thought some time back (and it's not to be perverted, but simply to the point): How did "natural selection" decide for males to have a penis and women to have a vagina and that through the course of these two things interacting, life is created? I haven't done any research on it, but I haven't heard one single possible suggestion of evolution figuring out how to make something like this become the only way (at least at one point in time) to survive. Doesn't make sense.

Proof? Look in a mirror, you should be all the proof you need. Not good enough? Well, just don't put yourself in a situation like one guy did: at a party, after a landmark case, one person said something about God, and the guy's response was, "If there really is a God, then he can strike me dead!" And wouldn't you know, that ouside on the balcony, a bolt of lightning, in clear weather, struck and killed the man. And the best part, it was documented and published in the local newspaper in Baton Rouge, LA.

But hey, that's just not good enough for you, because you cannot accept faith, can you? 'Tis a shame.
 
  by: Urmac     11/20/2004 07:50 PM     
  @Veritek  
 
No idea what you're talking about, Veritek. I'm not into anything that involves blaming God for anybody's stupidity.

But anyway, I can't prove God exists, His existence is unproveable, as is His nonexistence. No matter which way you want to learn there's some conjecture and blind faith involved.
 
  by: foahchon.   11/20/2004 08:44 PM     
  @urmac  
 
"Look around you. Look everywhere you can. See every single person, every bird, every tree, flower, rock, grass, dog, cat, horse, apple, banana, hill, mountain, cloud, sky, star, moon, sun, etc. etc. etc."

the fact that they exist proves that exist, you can prove they exist with imperical evidence or with your own eyes.

"Look at everything around you. The biggest piece of evidence of God's existence is everywhere you turn, in fact, for one to not be around God's creation is to not be present whatsoever."

wow, you got faith up the ying yang don't you... kinda goes with you presupposing that a "god" even exists... look up ockham's razor (i've probably said this before, maybe not to you though), i'll save you and anyonew interest the bother and i'll post it for all to read...

Ockham's Razor:
A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known.

we know that "every single person, every bird, every tree, flower, rock, grass, dog, cat, horse, apple, banana, hill, mountain, cloud, sky, star, moon, sun" exists, we don't know a "god" exists, its never been proven with real evidence and very likely never will, i'm very atheistic, so it will take a whole lot more than presupposition to convince me.

"How did "natural selection" decide for males to have a penis and women to have a vagina and that through the course of these two things interacting, life is created?"

the word decide should probably be in quotations, as when most people think of evolution i don't think most people think of evolution as a consciousness or having any cognition. I would not presuppose evolution to have either consciousness or cognition, and to me its more likely to not have either.

"Proof? Look in a mirror, you should be all the proof you need. Not good enough?"

this doesn't prove the existance of a "god", this prove my own existance.

"Well, just don't put yourself in a situation like one guy did: at a party, after a landmark case, one person said something about God, and the guy's response was, "If there really is a God, then he can strike me dead!" And wouldn't you know, that ouside on the balcony, a bolt of lightning, in clear weather, struck and killed the man. And the best part, it was documented and published in the local newspaper in Baton Rouge, LA."

thats funny i seen george carlin say that... infact i have it on tape and low-and-behold he made it through the night alive... and guess what he's still kicking.

"But hey, that's just not good enough for you, because you cannot accept faith, can you? 'Tis a shame."

Faith = Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

thus if you have proof (real evidence) then you no longer have faith.

"Well, just don't put yourself in a situation like one guy did"

ok Urmac i'll take you up on that challenge...

If there is a "god" maybe he strike me dead.

hmmm... i'm waiting... maybe i gotta yell it... IF THERE IS A "GOD" MAY HE STRIKE ME DEAD...

hmmmm... i think your "all powerful", "all knowing", and "everywhere" "god" is pulling a no-show...lol

come on, do i have to say please of something...lol


ok enough of that... i'm still living... i didn't get so much as a tingle.

ah well, none of this is to belittle you i just think personally i'd be very foolish to believe such things.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 09:25 PM     
  slight difference, foahchon.  
 
theres a slight difference the person that "desn't believe in "god" isn't replacing the answer to his origin with a tale (a fairytale) that hasn't be proven to be true.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/20/2004 09:48 PM     
  Well.. If you want proof he doesn't exist....  
 
Look around you...
Death and destruction everywhere... Creatures killing other creatures for fun... Men creating more and more ways of killing themselves and treating each other in many really horrible ways... Fear and loathing for people you don't even know because they live far away and don't live or think the way you do...
Where is he when good and moral people are killed by the hundreds by evil men... When homicidal maniacs can kill and kill and kill again until it is other people that stop them...
 
  by: bag     11/20/2004 09:51 PM     
  @urmac..  
 
The majority of the things you listed can be structurally generated through sequences of algorithms.

Just because an eco-system exists... it doesn't mean there's necessarily a god, although to someone religious.. it obviously does... despite their being no connection or reference to any form of 'god'..

We had single cell organisms, cell specialization and all the pre-historic crap.

And where are the dinosaurs in the bible?? (or are you going with the theory that fossils where put here to "test peoples fate".

Seriously, the existance of life is not proof that there is a god.

The number of contradictions between proven science based on evidence ..and.. religious theories based on a lack of evidence (which have been proven to be false over and over) says it all.

"Creationism" is a new christian theory. Evolution came first... then came creationism (the excuse to try to justify why religion didn't screw up!!)

Should I believe real proof and evidence or should I believe something that has been proven to be wrong in many areas, time and time again??
 
  by: method_uk   11/20/2004 10:01 PM     
  @Urmac, @foahchon., @HAVOC666  
 
Nothing of what you said is a proof, it is an opinion of how you conceive the world. How can you prove that those things are god's creation? You cannot, in anyway.

You have life forms with no sex, with male/female, and even some wich have both silmutaneously. Why is it that complex life form have a female/mal division in their specicies? Because of the way our genetics work, we evolve that way because usualy, only the best genes are past within the specicies. Specicies with no sex come across the problem of having an evolutory problem, yes they do evolve, and quite fast, but because their life span is not comparable to ours. But the ultimate evolutory capacities remains on those having male/female members in their species as evolution works faster this way. But hey, why am I telling you that? God created everything! And lets just hope your not like that other wacko who said that god created ADN so we can toy with it.

As for faith, I have, in myself. I, am the only one controlling my destiny, I am selfempowered with a conscious mind. I decide of what I will achieve, success or failure.
As if there would be a god, would ever be. Only I could be my own god. But yet again, there is no such thing.



@foahchon.
At least you have the wisdom to admit some things that most religious being wont. And I respect you for not trying to prove something anyway you can, when it cannot. Nor will I ever try to make you think the way I do.

But doesnt stop me from being a pain in the ass ;)

@HAVOC666
I second you.

What is fun here is that I will never have such a discussion with anyone in my country (Quebec... for HAVOC666 ;) ). Not even with religious mens and womens. Religion once had its use. It doesnt anymore, it is far to corrupted. Embrace the age of transhumanism. Behold the new man and woman. Behold ourself, created by us, using our technology, knowledge and arrogance.
 
  by: Veritek   11/20/2004 10:54 PM     
  bag  
 
Stick with me on this. Ultimately, God created man to worship Him. However, he desires a willing heart. God gave free will to everyone, including all those bad people (read my response to method_uk about good/bad). Going with this, God did not create man to be puppets, which is why there is all the nonsense today. If we were all just puppets being controlled by Him, it would defeat the whole purpose of even creating us. Bad things have gone on since almost the beginning of time, when Cain killed Abel.
 
  by: Urmac     11/21/2004 12:09 AM     
  method_uk  
 
You said majority, but I and many others want an explaination for everything. And here is reference to any form of 'god': good and bad. In order for there to be any good, then there has to be an example/standard; same thing with bad. For instance: many here hate Bush because he's an evil man. Evil? How? By what standard is he being measured? Since a standard is being used, where did that standard come from and who set it? I'm sure you've heard this argument before, but I've yet to see anything that's even reasonable that could possibly explain how humans derived a standard of good and bad.
 
  by: Urmac     11/21/2004 12:10 AM     
  Hold up just a second  
 
The existence of all things proves that they do exist, on this we agree, but how can one say that they do not prove the existence of God and that they in turn prove the non-existence of God? You can't prove they aren't God's creation and neither can I prove that they are, so we're back to sqaure one: where I accept that as proof and you do not. We cannot see wind, heat, cold, the deepest parts of the ocean, nor the center of the earth, yet we all believe they exist. This is far fetched, I admit, but I look at it as the same as God. Can't see Him, but I know He's there.

Despite what your steadfast minds had probably already decided before you even did your homework, evolution has not been proven, nor has the things within the confines of the Bible through science been proven wrong. In fact, if enough research would be done, one would find that science is helping prove the Bible to be more true, especially with the study of other galaxies and solar systems. I suggest a book called "Case For A Creator," written by liberal journalist turned conservative Christian Lee Strobel. You will be amazed. But then, would any of you be so bold, daring, willing, humble, honest, and open enough to even consider touching this book? I challenge you all to read it, if you're not too scared for a hefty challenge.

It's one thing to read studies from two different perspectives and then draw your own conclusion, but it's another to draw your conclusion, read up on what supports your conclusion, and then believe that it has become the final authority for that conclusion, and anything else contrary to it are unfounded, crazy, ridiculous, out of touch, and simply unreasonable.

God has proven himself to me many times over, by me being faithful and seeing things work out as I prayed and belived would. Do I believe in coincidence? Rarely. I know God exists because the unexplainable was done before my eyes many times and from the stories of others that share with me.

For instance: my best friend just had a baby. Everything up till just before the birth process was fine, not one single problem in the past 9 months. All of a sudden, the baby shifted to its side. You cannot deliver a baby sideways, so in cases like this, doctors have to do some major and dangerous work so that the mother and child survive. People prayed and wouldn't you know, the doctors were left speechless and dumb-founded; the baby, on its own, shifted back into the proper position and was delivered, and came out as healthy as a baby can be. Coincidence? Turn of luck? Series of fortunate events? Evolution working its magic? Nonsense. The doctor even said he had never seen anything like that before. Oh, and this is at, if not the best, one of the best hospital's in my state, which has a high birth rate. Bah, what am I saying? It was just luck on the baby's part, right?

HAVOC: Your response to my male/female example gave no type of explanation. Sup wit dat? Anyways, if God wasn't so loving, a lot more people like you would be dead, for things like that. Yet, it's great to have a big man upstairs that actually loves everyone, despite their hate to Him.

Veritek: That's not an explanation, that's just rhetorical babbling, imo. So we started off having no gender, or even asexual, and at some point, our genetics took on the trait of a male/female existence so that one worked with the other in perfect harmony so as to create life? Each person is unique, so how was it that multiple people became females and ditto to males and rather than alike, being almost identical in the identification of genders? Surely there would have been quite a few variations of humans if that's the case. In fact, going with this assumption of the genetical process, every person would have developed their own trait and way of procreation, so perhaps there would've been one man and one woman, but what about the others? And what of a woman's breast, why don't men have them? I understand your explanation, but hardly does it explain the exactness of the facts of men/women.
 
  by: Urmac     11/21/2004 12:11 AM     
  @urmac  
 
"HAVOC: Your response to my male/female example gave no type of explanation. Sup wit dat? Anyways, if God wasn't so loving, a lot more people like you would be dead, for things like that. Yet, it's great to have a big man upstairs that actually loves everyone, despite their hate to Him."

well if i'm wrong about the existance of "god" and it can be proven beyond (however as an atheist i'd bet the house on it not being proven) doubt i would believe "god" exists but i still would not worship.

"And what of a woman's breast, why don't men have them?"

actually some men do have the physical breasts, other men also have lactating breasts. actually Tim Allen has actually made a joke about this something to the effect of if men are going to secrete anything out of their nipples it should be something manly like oil or beer. it really isn't all that unheard of.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/21/2004 02:12 AM     
  HAVOC  
 
Well my friend, it come down to just that: choice.

You have made your decision, and neither I or God can change that; only you can.

My point in saying that about breasts is that "evolution" selected the female gender to have breasts, whereas men have chests. It's a characteristic common in all women, no matter the size, but it is there, nonetheless. The whole genetic evolution stuff fails to explain these things, as with many other things.

But as I said, it simply comes down to choice, and we both have made ours.
 
  by: Urmac     11/21/2004 03:09 AM     
  Question.  
 
In the final analysis, when all is said and done, "What difference does it make?"

We are all going to die, whether there is a hereafter or not.

If there is no hereafter, the only thing that matters is how you lived your life.

If there is a hereafter, I don't think the gatekeeper is going to be concerned with what you believed about him. Once again, the only thing that will matter is how you lived your life.

Would the gatekeeper want you for a neighbor?

In my travels, I've lived with people from a variety of backgrounds, political and religious beliefs, cultural and ethnic characteristics, etc. etc.

None of which had any bearing on my opinion of them as friends and neighbors.

When I invite people into my home, my only concern is if they are disruptive, and by their actions (not beliefs) make my party less than it could be.

Am I more godlike than the gatekeeper of a hereafter?

Mike Farrell
First Sergeant of Marines
Retired and Reincarnated in the Philippines
 
  by: firstsgtmike   11/21/2004 04:15 AM     
  oh foahchon you truly are deluded  
 
"Apparently you don't have a problem getting into an argument without knowing what you're talking about. In fact all you've done so far is flash some credentials, not put them to use. Why don't you use that vast knowledge of yours to make an actual argument?"

Simple. I can make the perfect argument against any and all religions and their unfortunate followers, unfortunately you have to have an open mind to see, which precludes all religion followers. An unfortunate paradox, but also true.

"No, the church's control all of the available information about the origins of the Bible, it's contents, or Christianity, or Judaism, whatever, only exists inside your head."

Why did you dream that up? I never said it.

"Well, seeing as how most college students, be it local or state, have the logical capacities of sixth-graders, that's hardly impressive."

Sorry, I should have clarified that.
University of Queensland, Australia. One of the most respected universities in the world. Over here you have to earn a place in Uni'. There will never be a college in Australia named St.??????'s as religion doesn't leave room for learning. It's almost as if religious learnings and logical thought processes can't co-exist in the one brain.

As for "someone who actually knows something" and "informed Christian"

You just don't get it or you're afraid to. Let me put you straight. All atheists find all religious people automatically as fools. It's simple logic. If you profess belief in the impossible despite the fact that scientific, provable evidence is used to discredit it. You are un-informed, and laughably gullible.

Look up "belittle" in a dictionary.

I used to find all religious people scary. I never wanted to know I was the same species as these dangerous fools. But then I found a way to beat the stress. Laugh at them, after all their beliefs are downright ludicrous.

Go back to living in ignorance. If you actually believe any religion the only thing that can come from debating it, is it's loss. Logic can't lose an argument (unless it's about love), religion can't win one.

Believe if it keeps you happy, but don't waste your time or mine attempting to convince me you're right. Nothing short of god's appearance to me, and several miracles performed for me, would convince me of his/her/it's existence. Not that that would prove most of religion's beliefs as they were made up by man.

This is finished. I will not check back for your response for it can have no positive effect for me or this site.

One final thought: Science doesn't need belief, it's provable. Religion needs belief because it's not proveable.

Well said havoc666.
 
  by: unit 1010011010   11/21/2004 06:16 AM     
  No new translations are needed  
 
The ones we have now have stood the test of time. Everyone who makes a serious effort to disprove the truth of the Bible has failed and become persuaded of the total integrity of the Scriptures.
 
  by: Luhker     11/21/2004 07:23 AM     
  What happened to  
 
CHAKUBANGA? DOES ANYONE KNOW? IS HE BANNED? THIS IS WHEN I WOULD HAVE REALLY LIKED TO READ HIS RESPONSE.
 
  by: kinko     11/21/2004 05:45 PM     
  @all non-believers  
 
Havoc, Unit, anyone else on here that have been triing to disprove God, and the bible, I have some advice for you. When you die, you WILL stand before God and he will judge you. Christians, who have been washed free of all their sins, will be seen in God's eyes are pure and perfect. Not because they were pure and perfect on earth, no one is, or can be. They are seen pure because they have been cleaned of all their sins, and forgiven, because they wanted to be, and asked God to forgive them. Nothing short of perfect and pure can enter the gates of Heaven. So what does this mean for the non-believers? God will look onto you, and say I never knew you. You have your entire life to make the decision to follow him. Whenever he says he never knew you, you will be cast into hell. Now, some people seem to have this strange idea that hell is going to be a big party, and everyone is going to be happy. The truth is the opposite. Hell is by definition, a place seperated from God. It tells in the bible that in hell, there will be complete darkness, and enternal death. You will scream but no sound will come out. You will be engulfed in tourcherous flames, and your flesh will be torn from your bones. Yea, that sure sounds like a party to me.

Some of you claim that you will not accept God until you see him prove himself, and show miricales to you. Hello, anyone ever heard of the bible? There is more evidence that Jesus walked the earth and rose again, than there is evidence that the civil war occured. Yea, that sounds crazy and all, but its true. Romans kept very good records of events and happenings in their times. They owned the world, remember?

And if the bible just isnt your thing, ill tell you a story of my own. It happened one night with my church group and pastor, as we were witnessing to people in a bad part of Philidelphia. I dont remember the part of the city we were in, but if youve ever been to phili, there arent many nice parts. Especially not at night. Anyways, we were going door to door, handing out bibles to people, and witnessing to them. We came across one house where as we knocked on the door, a man with a glock 9 mm opened the door and threatend us with our lives if we didn't leave right away. My pastor stood there and looked the man in the eye. Then he calmly, but sternly said, "Son, you CAN'T kill me." The man looked at him as if he was stupid. "The **** I can't" said the man. He pulled the trigger of the gun. Click. Nothing came out. If you know anything about Glock's, you know these guns DO NOT mis-fire. He looked at the gun, pointed it back at my pastor. Click. This was 2 mis-fires. He then turned the gun at the side of his apartment, and fired. 3 bullets came out. The other 2 bullets were sitting in the chamber! The man turned the gun back on my pastor. Click. It was at that very moment that that man got down on his hands and knees and asked God into his life.

To this day, I don't know how that gun mis-fired like it did. If you can tell me how, and how the bullets DIDNT LEAVE THE CHAMBER, then please, be my guest. God protected us that night, and if thats not a mirical enough, i dont know what is.
 
  by: ih4xjoo   11/21/2004 06:51 PM     
  Hmmmm......  
 

Dear President Bush,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose a constitutional amendment ban same sex marriage. As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share your knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual relationships, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, howeve r, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is with my neighbors ..They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35 :2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wif e by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
 
  by: lurker     11/21/2004 08:15 PM     
  lurker  
 
It's this kind of mentality that people like you fail to see the Bible as a whole, who focus so much energy and attention on the OT text. Are they important? Most definitely, but the law that was placed in OT times because of the culture that people lived in at that time.

Going with Jesus being who Christian's say he is: Jesus became the final authority, where people were no longer enslaved to the law, but set free from it and to live a life like him.

Do you really think I send my wife away whenever she is on her period? Do you really think that I sacrifice animals, sprinkle blood upon an alter, drain the blood completely and eat the meat in the most holy place of the temple? These things seem crazy to us because of our society, but during these times, these "odd" things were practically second nature, which is why you don't see Moses saying, "God, what are you talking about?!?"
 
  by: Urmac     11/21/2004 08:33 PM     
  @urmac  
 
You wrote:"but the law that was placed in OT times because of the culture that people lived in at that time."

Do you think it just possible, that perhaps, maybe, the people living in those times made up folktales to explain natural events they could not understand or otherwise explain?

The Greeks did. The Romans did. Why not the Hebrews?

In fact, every culture (except the Hebrews?) created its own folklore in an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

I'll refer you back to my previous post "Question", what difference does it make?
 
  by: firstsgtmike   11/21/2004 09:06 PM     
  @Urmac  
 
He definately has a point. When the same Book has all those other strange laws it kinda takes away some of the credibility of the homosexual law.
 
  by: treyjazz   11/21/2004 09:12 PM     
  My...  
 
old Southern Baptist preacher used to say, "either believe every word of the Bible or don't believe any of it."
 
  by: lurker     11/21/2004 09:13 PM     
  @lurker  
 
I saw it on a bumper sticker once.

God said It, I believe It, and That's It.
 
  by: firstsgtmike   11/21/2004 09:27 PM     
  matthew to urmac  
 
"It's this kind of mentality that people like you fail to see the Bible as a whole, who focus so much energy and attention on the OT text. Are they important? Most definitely, but the law that was placed in OT times because of the culture that people lived in at that time.

Going with Jesus being who Christian's say he is: Jesus became the final authority, where people were no longer enslaved to the law, but set free from it and to live a life like him."

matthew disagree's with you.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

sorry to tell you if you believe in the bible you should at very least know the OT rules still apply. that was from the KJV.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/21/2004 09:27 PM     
  Embrace HIm who keeps them for you ...  
 
It's clear that most, if not all, including myself, do not obey the truths of both the OT & NT. The only remedy is to embrace Him who keeps them for you.

Jesus: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

 
  by: Luhker     11/22/2004 01:33 AM     
  groomsy  
 
I think you may be reading into this to much. Hes not "changing" the word of God. He is actually translating it into a more accurate english translation for today. The King James version "is" full of bad translations. Even though the jist of the stories are correct. The only way to truley read the word of God is too learn how to read and understand Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. If you cant understand these languages you have to rely on a translation.
 
  by: firemedicntx   11/23/2004 04:48 PM     
  unit 1010011010  
 
I read your post where you asked someone to explain what offends them.

Well, your ignorance offends me as a human.

You claim to be an intelligent, logical person. Yet you prove otherwise with your posts condemning all religions.

Whether you believe in a higher power or not doesn't matter. Religious people believe simply because it makes them feel good.

Arguing some ones feelings is an exercise in futility. You should know this.

Don't argue about a book you don't believe in. The logical thing to do is to concentrate your energies on things you support, believe in, and can disprove.

Ignorance isnt a sin, but its not an excuse either.
 
  by: firemedicntx   11/23/2004 05:02 PM     
  @firemedicntx  
 
"Whether you believe in a higher power or not doesn't matter. Religious people believe simply because it makes them feel good."

do you really need religion to feel good (not really a question), all i have to do to feel good is... well be myself. beit conversing with others, smoking some bud, playing a video game, watching a movie, hell earning money make me feel good.
 
  by: HAVOC666     11/23/2004 05:22 PM     
  I wasn't talking about me  
 
The majority of people I know who are religous. Get comfort from believing in a God.

I have some beliefs, but they are not popular. I have studied some of the oldest religons on earth and the Bible as well. I respect other peoples religons and try to understand why it is they belive the way they do. I deal with death almost on a daily basis. The comfort most religons provide, is through the promise of an afterlife.

And no, I dont believe in a land of milk & honey or pearly gates to the promosed land. Most educated Christains believe all that to be a metaphor as well.

To translate a book that may be 4000 years old into languages used today is a hard thing to do, but a noble accomplishment.

If you are going to live your life by a set of rules. You better make certain that the rules mean what you think they do.
 
  by: firemedicntx   11/23/2004 05:40 PM     
  and  
 
I forgot to hit spell check.

I suck!
 
  by: firemedicntx   11/23/2004 05:42 PM     
  @havoc666, @unit  
 
Do you really need to smoke bud, play video games, earn money to feel good (not really a question), all I have to do is pray to God and know that if I have failed him, that I still strive, and he will forgive me because I am human, and not perfect.

So, who are you to judge my beliefs? Who am I to judge yours?

In christianity, we have a saying that derives from scripture "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", others use it to, it's known as the Golden Rule. If you really want people to stop trying to push their religion on to you, you need to stop pushing yours.

You may not understand christians, that doesn't give you the right to disparage their beliefs. Of course, at the root of it, you and unit are hypocrits.

@unit: Actually, I graduated highschool with an OP1, Dux of the School, have my name on a brass plague, attended University of Southern Queensland on a scholarship, and graduated as a qualified software engineer. I'm also a christian. I completed my last 2 classes by cross institutional study through the University of Melbourne. Both Universities have thriving support both on campus, in the form of a church, and in the associated bible study and activity groups and events. It is perfectly possible to be educated, scientific and a christian.

 
  by: lauriesman     11/28/2004 01:00 AM     
  Don't attack others beliefs ...  
 
you are allowed to believe what you want to believe. We all have our own core values and beliefs. No one is allowed to tell us what we should and shouldn't believe. You can't prove there is a God ... but you also can't prove there isn't. Just because you have never seen a Million dollars doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
  by: Daev     11/28/2004 01:27 AM     
  @ih4xjoo  
 
"When you die, you WILL stand before God and he will judge you. Christians, who have been washed free of all their sins, will be seen in God's eyes are pure and perfect. Not because they were pure and perfect on earth, no one is, or can be. They are seen pure because they have been cleaned of all their sins, and forgiven, because they wanted to be, and asked God to forgive them." Dude you can not say that he will. Havent you been readnig what these people have been arguing about!? I mean you can prech and preach all about this stuff if you want, but you can not prove it! So please start reading what people are sayuing about religion, science, and beliefs, it will help you understand we are all gonna die and you cannot force your beliefs onto one person..you will be ignored by the people on this forum if you keep saying this kind of stuff. P.S. all of the christians become purified and the whole cleansing part were written by humans...you have to realize...you can state your own opinion on this forum but please do not force and claim your belief as the ultimate truth.
 
  by: rj2   12/02/2004 07:59 AM     
 
 
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