Israeli troops patrolling the West Bank village of Tubas shot dead a 13 year old boy with a toy gun mistaking him for an armed gunman planning to open fire on them.
According to the family of the deceased boy, Salahadin Abu Mohsen the boy was with a group throwing stones at the soldiers when he raised a gun made of scrap metal at them.
The boy was pronounced dead at the hospital at Jenin.
well the parents shouldn't have allowed him to be around that anyways, with all the killing that the israelis are getting i don't blame them for shooting on a instant if they believed it was a gun. Still sad the boy died at a young age, but that isn't the Israeli's fault.
It's really easy to say "oh well what an asshole" he was 13 . Do any of you remember being 13 all the shit you got up to ???? It wasn't clever but then again I would expect a professional solider ( and there are plenty here on sn maybe they could help here with some input ) to be able to evaluate the danger .And i wouldn't expect a 13 year old to be exceptionally clever .
Most of you have short memories remember the 13 year old girl who had an Israeli soldier empty his gun into her on the ground not long ago ...all caught on film .
The American who was shot because they thought he was a gunman as he was dresed in camo gear was pointing a gun at them .When the images recorder showed he was dressed in bright orange and was carying a white flag.
This is a shoot to kill policy , if he was a gunman don't you think you would pop one in his leg get him back to base and consult your "how to torture" handbook which is standard issue in Israel and get ome info out of him .
Sorry none here for him. HE was with a group of popel throwing stones at the soldiers (showing resitence and hatred) then raises a item that looks like a gun. I would of wasted him too.
Yeah, I think if I was in a hostile territory having people throwing rocks at me and someone raised something that looked like a gun at me I would shoot too. It's either that or stand the chance of being shot. It's an easy decision.
The kid should not have been there. If I were to go throw rocks at an army I know that I'd be in hot water pretty darn quick.
...how long it would take for some pansy-a$$ed libbie or libbie wannabe to go crying about how evil the Jews are for "killing" this kid. I'm still waiting for more, but let's recap some common sense for the bleeding-hearts, since they are incapable of seeing it on their own:
1) In a violent situation, people under stress aren't necessarily going to see a gun being pointed at them and ask "gee, I golly gosh wonder if that gun being pointed at me is real or a fake. I believe I shall go to that person and ask him 'hello, good sir, how are you doing? Hate to make this so abrupt, but I was curious as to whether that gun you are pointing at me is real or fake. Could you please tell me?'" Get real. In order to survive, especially in a violent situation, you have to assume that any gun pointed at you is real, and then it becomes a 'kill or be killed' situation. There's no time to strut over to the suspected would-be killer and check the gun out. I'm sure the bleeding hearts have never been in that kind of situation, and oddly enough, I'm sure they'd shoot just as quickly as they could, being hypocrites, of course. 2) The Israelites are routinely being killed by "children" carrying guns, explosives, or committing suicide bombings. In that case, it's not just logical, but intelligent, to assume that a gun in someone's hand is real. 3) The bleeding hearts have never lived anywhere where they could be killed by a kid, a suicide bomber, or some idiotic Muslim screaming about getting 42 virgins for wiping out your people, so of course they can sit back in their well-cushioned chair and decry the actions of people in those situations. Usually they do this inbetween shoving tons of junk food into their gaping maws during a commercial break from their favorite tasteless "reality" series, so their opinions should be seen as nothing more than sadly amusing little screams into the ether of stupidity. Certainly nothing to be taken as thoughtful, intelligent, or of even the smallest amount of worth. Let's put them into a country where they could be blown to bits just for riding a bus, and seeing it happen to others constantly, and then see how their opinion changes. Idiots.
have you ever fired a gun? Shoot him in the leg? Do you have a clue what you're talking about? Outside of very close range, it is hard to really determine where your gunfire is really going to go. When you shoot at a target, especially if it is a moving target, chances are you're not going to hit it where you intended. So, suffice to say, if you raise a gun at me, I'm shooting in your direction, much as I expect you are doing to me. You got hit and I didn't. I'm lucky. OH wow, it wasn't a real gun? Well, that sucks, maybe you shouldn't have been playing with fire. In addition, think of how traumatized the soldier who shot the kid is.
Might be a good idea to read posts before you go off on a rant though
You're the only person here talking about Jews
I said Israel and Israeli never Jews .... so who were you talking about
Also I notice that you seem to assume that just because someone doesn't support the idea of a 13 year old being shot that they are somehow in favour of suicide bombings ... wow !
How about this why don't they accept the peace plan the whole world accepted to end the problem (well the whole except America) ?
I'm talking about the peace offer that wasn't reported in America. You know they said the Palestinians rejected the Israeli "Palestinian State" and failed to put forward an alternative ... which is blatantly false! Oh and look for a map of the Israeli “Palestine state” you won't find one in any American mainstream media because if people took one look at the map they'd laugh their asses off .(so maps were kept out of this story)
Oh and look for a map of the Isralie Palastian state you won't find one in any American Mas Media organisation because if people took one look at the map they'd laugh their asses of .(so maps were kept out of this story)
why did they also have to shoot a cameraman in the back ... maybe he was pointing a camera at them and we all know the usual Isreli reaction to this :-)
While I understand how you formed your opinion, I question that opinion. My questions are very simple and I will do my best to keep them on a philisophical level and not at all personal. That being said, would you please tell me what exactly a soldier who is being assaulted is supposed to do when someone points what appears to be a gun at them? There is no rule of war stipulating that a soldier must verify the lethality of an opponent's weapon before taking the necessary steps to neutralize the percieved threat. There are rules of war that govern how one determines a percieved threat. This 13 year old Palestinian boy was in a mob of rock throwers. This mob was obviously threatening. This boy had a crudely constructed device fashioned to look like a fire arm. This boy raised his weapon and pointed it at an armed Israeli soldier. Now I would like to point out that no one is questioning whether or not the boy knew that the Israeli was armed with a fully functioning and extremely lethal fire arm. The reason no one is questioning this is becuase it is common knowledge that Israeli soldiers are very well equipped and trained in the efficient operation of their equipment. The well trained Israeli soldier witnessed the assault and had been trained to recognise the actions of an enemy preparing to fire. This 13 year old boy performed the actions of an enemy preparing to fire. What, pray tell, is a soldier to do? Should he stand still and wait to see a muzzle flash at the risk of being eliminated himself, or should he take a pre-emptive action to protect himself and his comrades? While you could say that the child may not have been fully aware of the possible interpretation of his actions, no Palestinian capable of cognitive thought and communication could say that they are not aware of the dangers involved in assaulting the better equipped and better trained Israeli soldiers either alone or in a group. If we accept that self preservation is an inborn instinct, and the general Palistinian population is aware of the dangers associated with assaulting Israeli soldiers, can we not also reach the conclusion that the 13 year old boy was aware that his actions could ellicit a proactive response from the Israeli soldiers? My point being that this 13 year old boy was old enough to know that pointing a gun - fake or not - at a soldier with a gun that is definately real is most likely going to get you shot. Let us also note that the conflict in Israel has seen men and boys, women and girls, young and old take lethal action against Israeli soldiers. The Israeli soldiers can not trust anyone. They must trust only to themselves and thier equipment. Given the circumstances, I would have shot too, and given your ill formed opinion, you would be dead.
but i have to agree with what the majority has said thus far. He was in a hostile situation and raised what appeared to be a gun, if i was in the situation i have no doubt i would have fired as well.
To all you bleeding hearts out there, if you pointed a gun at me, peace time or war time, I’ll be damned if I’m gonna wait around to find out if it is real or not. I’m going to assume you mean me harm and do whatever means necessary to protect myself. There are a lot of stories in the U.S. alone (during peace time) where a police officer has shot someone for the same thing, juvenile and adult. Chances are you would have done the same thing.
If he was.... six or seven years old... then maybe there would be some sympathy from most people. In a warzone where kids are used to fight an enemy they are going to be killed just like any other person waving a gun. Sad, but true.
Congratulations to his family and community for raising such a bright boy. Hooray for the crowd of rock-throwing idiots who agitated the soldiers into shooting. They'll never get this crap sorted out.
my three-year-old knows basic safety. don't run into the street, don't stick things up your nose, don't dive headfirst off the bed (okay, that one took some work). you'd think that by thirteen a kid would be able to figure out "while living in an area full of edgy gunmen and tension, with children getting shot regularly, don't mob and threaten the soldiers".
As usual you take a “should have known better” attitude
in the heat of the fight
no time to think
the poor soldier must feel bad
...and the whole lot of you like good Americans take the story at face value believe what you read (caus the media would never warp a story right ??) and get it all wrong .Did any of you read what I wrote ... do a search look at the photos do these soldiers look like they were in a stressful situation to you ...they look like they're sitting in a pretty safe place to me and smiling on top of it another detail that was left out of the official news story on most sites was that the boy was shot in the back (no time to judge??) Oh and they killed two 13 year olds on the same day for some reason the second boy doesn't make the story because there is no official explanation as to why the soldier opened fire on him .
SEE THE DANGER OF BEING AN INTERNETTY NEWSHOUND FEELING ALL WELL INFORMED AND ONLY HAVING 1/2 OF THE FACTS
Now I’m sitting in my office in Spain and I can find this info easily …why can’t any of you guys before you jump in and defend the shooting of a 13 year old??
i'm not saying the kid deserved to die. i'm not saying it was the right thing for the soldier to do, either. children get killed regularly for little/no reason around there, right? given the circumstances, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that being "with a group of children and youths taunting and throwing rocks at the soldiers" is a bad, and possibly fatal, idea.
it really doesn't matter, the boy shouldn't have been anywhere near a situation like that. The people at fault are his parents, no one should be letting their child be in the middle of a rock throwing protest at armed men. And it doesn't matter how far away or high they were , a gun and shoot you anywhere if you are in the open. They have used kids in sucide attacks, and there isn't any doubt they could get a kid to shoot at them too. And please don't compare other incidents with others, just because one seems wrong doesn't make the other wrong too.
Until you've been shot at by an eight year old, or watched a four year old carry a live grenade into a group of your friends, if you kept your self rightious comments to yourselves.
.........your self righteous comments to yourselves.............
First off you're in an internet forum which is where people express their opinions and if taking the time to gather some information is as you call “self righteous" well I can't really argue with that .... When I sent in the info about the second boy that was shot and not reported and the fact that the boy with the gun was shot in the back I pointed out to the people around me (here in the office) how someone (from America most likely) will take offence as people usually do when you point out that they don't have all the facts ...which is not their fault ...
If anything you should be thanking me for telling you what your "free press" failed to tell you.
here I strongly suggest you watch the documentary "The Gaza Strip" it's all over p2p land and it would have cut out all those "it was the parents fault" comments as it shows the day to day life of a stone thrower in the region and shows pretty accurately what the people there are going through and the fact that the parents don't have a clue where their kids are and that they are the first ones to punish their children when they do find out that they were involved.
And a child in the area doesn't only get shot at when he throws stones, the documentary shows kids being shot at
1 in schools 2 in playgrounds And in the street
It also shows how Israel uses chemical weapons which it fires into Palestinian houses at night and how they refuse to inform the hospitals treating 50 screaming children what the gas was so the doctors don't have a clue how to treat them.
Both sides in this conflict commit atrocities the shame is that the USA seems to be doing everything possible to maintain the status-quo in the region.
No I’ve never been shot at by an eight year old or seen a 4 year old blow up my friends but if it did happen and If I was seriously interested in it not happening again and getting to the root of the problem I would be asking myself the question “why are they doing this” …. The real winner in this situation (and this has been pointed out in the US press) is Bin Laden who gets an audience every time this sort of stuff happens.
Have you ever had chemical weapons shot into your house at night??? And if you had to watch all your classmates screaming in agony in a hospital that can’t attend them how would you react??? (Remember you’re 13) What you going to wait until you can vote to do something about it (taking into account that you might be blocked from getting to the voting both anyway). When you take a populations voice away and deny them basic human rights you can expect stone to be thrown and a lot worse and no that is not an excuse for terrorism it’s a sad truth.
And as for asking someone in an internet forum to "keep comments to themselves" what you are in fact saying "I don't like what you said so shut up " (after all you didn't deny any of the points ··I made , just that you didn't like them ) which raises the question do you believe in free speech or just speech that backs up your own beliefs ?
Did you know that the whole world ( apart from the usual suspects, Us and Israel) and the vast majority of the American population ( it's a democracy ..right ..? ) want the US to take a neutral stance in the Middle East and to equal aid to both sides ...that came out in october 2004 and was so outrageous for the mainstream media in the US that it simply wasn't reported .
As long as I was out of the line of fire, I'd welcome the opportunity to watch you "getting to the root of the problem ... and asking “why are they doing this”?
In my experience, they are not interested in a political or philosophical discussion. Their sole purpose in life, at that time, is to blow you away.
You can quote, you can cite whatever appeals to you (I hope you speak the same language the shooter does.)
As an amused spectator, I'll take notes on the arguments you presented, while I count the shots. After his gun is emptied into you, I may come out and continue the discussion on your behalf.
You see, I'm not talking about a free press, a biased press, movies, propaganda, political right or wrongs.
How do you react and respond when a gun is aimed at you and you know the shooter is anxious to blow you away?
You've got as much time to decide as it takes him to pull the trigger.
What newspaper article do you want to discuss with him?
Bang! Bang! Bang!
Is there a movie you saw that you would like to discuss?
Bang! Bang! Bang!
How about the sociological implications for his behavior, as he finishes emptying the magazine.
When your discussion with him is finished, I'll blow him away and go home to write a letter to your next of kin. I'll even point out to them that you should have won the philosophical debate. After all, you knew more about politics and the world situation than the eight year old shooter did.
The difference is that the media will play him up for a hero, me for a child killer, and you? You won't even be mentioned.
Give us a link to all this stuff and not bring it in unless we can read it ourselves, for all we know you could be making it up as all i have here to read is the newarticals source that is like 10 lines. IF it is on P2P download it and host it at www.yousendit.com and post the link, you don't need to sign up and it takes only a moment so we can discuss fairly with the same information
The votes are in, the bullet holes have been counted. You're dead meat.
Now, if anyone in your office would care to take over for you ....
I love the word "office". It resonates with field experience.
But I digress. If anyone in your office would share his personal experiences of being shot at and how he reacted and responded, I, for one, would be eager to listen and learn how he survived.
The politics are immaterial. An exploding bullet reacts the same regardless of the political affiliations of the gunman.
Only those of us who have survived have earned the right to make judgements.
All else is speculation.
This is NOT politics. This is NOT national interests. This is individual survival.
I'd like to hear from your "office" mates. I'll introduce them to a couple of 13 year olds.
P.S. Check the ages of the kids involved in the "killing fields" of Cambodia.
now it appears that the soldiers say there was a gunman on the scene who disappeared "A Palestinian boy with a toy gun among a group of children throwing stones at IDF soldiers was shot and killed. According to Haaretz, the soldiers said they fired at a gunman, who then disappeared. The IDF is investigating the possibility that the gunman escaped while the youngster was hit."
(now that's a total turn around for this story (previously they "mistook him for a gunman" and now "they mistook him for another gunman who was there") , this is standard practice in these sort of situations e.g. Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland and this information released after the boy was buried... The BBC are saying he was shot in the chest (Israeli Agency sources) others are saying the second boy who was killed took a round in the neck and the only cameraman who was witness to the shooting says the child took a round in the back ....but it was an Arab cameraman so I'm sure people will take this fact to dismiss his comments ...despite the fact that he was there
You seem to misunderstand me on the fact of weather these kids are capable of being used as terrorists ... of course they are..... And as the Times in London ran a story about a year back which quoted a kid in the region as saying "why would they shoot at me I'm only a kid" .
The documentary which was made by John Longley (http://www.littleredbutton.com/) "the gaza strip" shows an interview with another stone thrower who makes a pretty heavy claim when asked about the possibility of being killed while throwing stones he says more or less that death would be a relief from living under such conditions (so are these kids trying to commit suicide??? who knows)
As for my office it's not really an office more an editing room with a table :-) and a load betacam tapes which haven't been returned to the archive and I’ll probably get rap for that ,some of my workmates have been in war situations (mostly Bosnia ) others Baghdad (they went in with the Spanish Humanitarian Aid after the “fall” of Baghdad so most of the “action” was over ) yeah there are some pretty hairy stories which I must admit get better every time you hear them :-) How did they react to taking fire, usually like most news crews (sense of hey I’m with the TV they won’t shoot at me …….Jesus that was close!!!)(…I’m sure you’ve seen it all before).
P.S. Check the ages of the kids involved in the "killing fields" of Cambodia
Interesting choice of example Cambodia, especially how 99% of the media attention was placed on Cambodia after 1975 as it was a Communist Atrocity and very little attention was paid prior to this as prior to 1975 it was mostly “our” doing . And you may not be aware that at the same time the Khmer rouge were killing 2 million people ,in Indonesia , The Indonesian Government with American backing were killing 1/3 of the population of East Timor in a similar atrocity … which went almost virtually unreported in the US. (There was one article I think in the New York Times titled “An unjust War in East Timor” but fell mostly on deaf ears. ) And another thing if you’re serious about discussing Cambodia you may want to see ITV’s Horizon documentary made in 1997 (I think it was) called” Cambodia the Betrayal “ (http://www.filmakers.com/ ) on how Western Governments including the USA were doing everything possible to re-instate the Khmer rouge to power. Now you’ll probably raise your eyes at that but it’s well worth checking out … I nearly paped myself when I heard the claims too ….. (Articles In the US press saying Pol Pot was heavy handed but not guilty of Genocide!!!!! )
Although I suppose your point is that a 13 year old is perfectly capable of being a soldier, which I don’t think anyone is disputing here ……. My point is why children are allowed to be drawn into such conflicts , and as many have pointed out why do their parents allow this (remembering that they run the risk of having their house pulled down if a member of the family is involved in such actions ) ,the answer IMHO is that the parents have enough problems trying to make ends meet and even just getting to work (if they have jobs) and from the reports and interviews with parents of these children it becomes clear that they don’t know where their kids are half of the time …
In more practical terms I’m not a soldier so I can’t answer for them, I do however find it disturbing that a soldier covered with sandbags inside a APC and armed with modern telescopic sights is unable to distinguish a toy gun at stone throwing distance … Al-jazeera has the photos. It is also worth noticing how some sources on the Net are using a picture of a boy holding a Toy gun which is so realistic it’s frightening , this is not the boy who was shot , initial reports say he was holding a gun made from scrap metal and now reports are coming out saying it was a “real” toy gun given to him as a present ….you
you can believe what you want here but I’m pretty sure the families of stone throwers don’t have the cash to fork out on expensive presents as most 13 and 14 year olds in the region are the only bread winners for their families and the money is handed over to mom and dad at the end of the day (scrap collection , selling newspapers etc )
Here is a link I dug up this morning which covers the Israeli High Command policy on stone throwers in the region its dated 2002
Let’s assume you’re right and the soldier made “an honest mistake” and shot the kid while he truly believed the boy was a threat to him and his comrades, this raises some serious questions the main one being
Why do they make this “mistake” on such a frequent basis?
You have to remember that All Israelis have 3 years compulsory Military service and a month a year Military service until the age if 50 (Someone may check this out I was told this by an Israeli about 8 years ago I’m not sure if they have changed it since) .Which makes them particularly “well trained” no ?
Why do they rarely release their own surveillance camera images, and when they do it’s in the cases where they clearly were under fire.
If you think back to the American Girl who was crushed by an Israeli Bulldozer, the army stated that the driver couldn’t see her, this was the official report which contradicts Israeli soldiers claims that “don’t worry we can see everything going on from in here” , the Bulldozers in question have night vision , infra-red and analogue and digital zoom on most cameras . Do the APC’s have this technology, and if not, why not ,taking into account that this sort of thing doesn’t make the situation any easier for Israel either and could possibly avoid such “mistakes” in the future ?
Personally I still believe in a shoot to kill policy in the area
Here’s a snippet from the article I linked to above (which refers to an unrelated stone throwing incident)
“These offenses are no less grave than rape or looting, but they are considered less grave by the IDF. If in the perception of IDF senior officers the killing of unarmed children - an act that former Shin Bet security service chief Ami Ayalon has called "flagrantly illegal" - does not merit investigation, denunciation or contrition, it is no wonder that a soldier who was manning the Kalanya roadblock a week ago Saturday opened fire, in the midst of a conversation with his buddies, at a group of children who were throwing stones from a distance at which the soldiers were out of range”
So is throwing stones at an armed soldier stupid ….. Yes
Does it Merit investigation …………………………. You decide
"opened fire, at a group of children who were throwing stones from a distance at which the soldiers were out of range."
(I'm sure that if any of the children had been hit, you would have reported it. So, was the soldier a lousy shot, or was he firing a warning over their heads?)
"Does it Merit investigation?" YES! Every time a weapon is fired the circumstances should be considered and evaluated. It comes under the heading of "fire discipline". However, the age, sex, politics, etc. of the target is NOT a consideration. The real or perceived life-threatening situation is all that matters.
I also believe that shots fired by policemen should be reviewed.
Otherwise, you invite a situation that presently exists here in the Philippines.
Three articles appearing in today's local newspapers:
"Mier was the 32nd killed vigilante-style this month and the third for last Saturday." ==== "Admittedly, the vigilantes would just text me about their accomplished mission and furnished me with the names of their victims. This means that they conducted surveillance first, identifying and thoroughly checking their victims’ background, before liquidating them.
What they are doing is sort of reporting to me their accomplished mission because, like Cebu City Mayor Tomas Osmeña, I am inspired and openly support their cause in eliminating these criminal elements that are creating havoc in our society." ======= "An IFJ report this month said the murder of 13 Filipino journalists in 2004, made the country one of the world's most dangerous places for journalists to operate."
"opened fire, at a group of children who were throwing stones from a distance at which the soldiers were out of range."
(I'm sure that if any of the children had been hit, you would have reported it. So, was the soldier a lousy shot, or was he firing a warning over their heads?)
"Does it Merit investigation?" YES! Every time a weapon is fired the circumstances should be considered and evaluated. It comes under the heading of "fire discipline". However, the age, sex, politics, etc. of the target is NOT a consideration. The real or perceived life-threatening situation is all that matters.
I also believe that shots fired by policemen should be reviewed.
Otherwise, you invite a situation that presently exists here in the Philippines.
Three articles appearing in today's local newspapers:
"Mier was the 32nd killed vigilante-style this month and the third for last Saturday." ==== "Admittedly, the vigilantes would just text me about their accomplished mission and furnished me with the names of their victims. This means that they conducted surveillance first, identifying and thoroughly checking their victims’ background, before liquidating them.
What they are doing is sort of reporting to me their accomplished mission because, like Cebu City Mayor Tomas Osmeña, I am inspired and openly support their cause in eliminating these criminal elements that are creating havoc in our society." ======= "An IFJ report this month said the murder of 13 Filipino journalists in 2004, made the country one of the world's most dangerous places for journalists to operate."
Maybe you might know if American police are obliged to file a report every time they pull a weapon on someone even if they don't fire.... they are here in Spain.... I just asked the Local Policeman who was about to tow my car away this morning he told me he pulled a gun once in his 12 years service and he had to file a report (including the embarrassing fact that, the (not sure what you call it not really a gun type myself the thing that holds the 6 rounds) fell out of his gun !!!)
Do you have some links for news agencies and independent journalists operating in the Philippines??? I was unaware that journalists were being popped off so readily over there..... This never reads well in terms of democracy ....what kind of democracy allows mass slaughter of journalists???
Anyway please send the links from these Local news stories I have a list as long as my arm of organizations to pass this info on to so you never know this might actually get some coverage outside the region ….. See bitching and bickering on net need not be a waste of time something good could come of this ?
