In Cuantanamo Bay interrogators tried to force Muslim detainees into releasing information by sexual touching, wearing miniskirts and thong underwear. Its against Islamic law to have physical contact with another woman besides his wife.
A US civilian Contractor was said to have used a miniskirt, a thong, and a bra during late-night interrogations with prisoners. The interrogator proceeded to rub her breast on the detainee.
After the prisoner spit in the female interrogator's face she asked the linguist how she could break him, he said when your menstruating, touch him and not let him clean himself. Some of these controversial techniques have been stopped.
you can only have 4 wives if you can support them and all be able to provide for them equally. when the rule was made there were alot of widows ... so guys married them and took care of them so they wouldnt be living in poverty alone on the streets..
It is not against islamic law for a muslim to rape and kill non-believers. I might be wrong in that it is against the islamic law for a muslim to be raped by a non-believer.
Muslim: oh gn0 these breasts rubbing on me are terrible... Interrogater: Yeah you like that.. Muslim: I can barely take this.. I am sure if you had sex with me doggystyle I would surely crack... And if you had another female and you were kissing each other I would even tell you where osama is.
I bet the porn industry is going come out with a movie called "Guantanamo Bay".
They lead the suspects to think it was blood, but they were actually using red ink.
In Islam, women are considered to be dirty when they are menstruating. Men are forbidden from coming in contact with them.
My two cents: As long as it's not torture, any form of manipulation is ok for interrogating terrorists. (Actually, a bit of torture isn't too bad either).
And Rarely_Useful, I hate giving bad ratings, especially when it's an interesting story, but please watch your spelling, punctuation, grammar, tense, etc...
I am constantly amazed by the cavalier attitude of Americans posting on here. Americans (the good guys) have opened a prison in a country American's are not even allowed to visit. This prison or 'justice' system is not in the public eye or scrutinized in any way. We are hearing all kinds of stories of prisoner abuse, torture, outrageous interrogation techniques, and total inhumanity to our fellow man.
All of this on a backdrop of people being guilty because we say so. There are no charges, no trial, no sentence, no justice, no right to know the charges against you, no right to defend oneself.
We have created a disgusting situation that we as a nation should be ashamed of. We can't have it both ways, we are either the good guys spreading peace and democracy throughout the world or we are a bunch of Nazis hell bent on taking over the world.
And before some of those Nazis flame me with arguments like, "torture is okay if it saves lives," let's keep in mind that these are just random people we have captured here. They could have been coerced into fighting with threats of violence against their families. They could be innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time.
How will we ever know? These people have not even been charged or given the chance to explain who they are or what they stand for. There has been no trial, no conviction, no charges, no determination of guilt. These are prisoners of war and we are turning our back on every internationally agreed standard of treatment of such a group of people.
The only thing this will lead to is more hatred, more misunderstanding, and more determination in the Muslim world to try to destroy us.
Next time we are attacked there will be cries for 'justice' but the reality is we are creating even more resentment and hatred by our actions right now that will inevitably lead to more atrocities against Americans. You reap what you sow.
To quote an old song, "We come in peace, shoot to kill..."
Those were awesome posts. stevo9err was HILARIOUS, and ZCT really verballized what I worry about. Thanks ZCT for understanding the dangers of conquest.
You make a good case, present valid points, and then you blow it.
It is not their detention that is so troubling, but the interrogation techniques.
Which means they HAVE been "given the chance to explain who they are."
"what they stand for" is irrevelent, unless they are running for political office and asking for your vote.
I believe there are times when torture is justified. However, given the length of time since their capture, I doubt that any of them have information of a tactical significance.
In your mind I may have blown it, but I remind you these people have not been convicted of anything. If we are to export freedom then we need to export our value system. Either we believe a person is innocent until proven guilty and that all people are equal or we don't. We are currently showing the world we don't care about justice, equality or human rights at all. A sad image to show the world.
And sorry but torture of prisoners is illegal, immoral, unreliable, ultimately self defeating, and never justified. I fear you were a soldier too long.
You make three mistakes in an otherwise excellent and well reasoned dissertation.
The first is to assume that the US doesn't treat its own citizens the same way - the FBI and CIA use these torture techniques against American civilians any time it is deemed necessary, and a matter of national security. Unfortunately we don't have 100% reliable truth serums, mind probes, or any of those other sci-fi devices that would remove any need for torture.
I am sure that the majority (I cannot say all) of the people involved take no pleasure in what they do.
The second mistake you make is assuming that no significant or useful information has been garnered through these methods of torture and interrogation. If there was nothing more to know, or success was minimal, I do believe that the people in charge would release the prisoners. This would be a coup on two levels: A) appearing more humanitarian and fair, and B) removing the ongoing costs of housing, feeding, and other overheads of maintaining such a prison. It is obviously in America's best interest to release the prisoners if they are not learning anythign from them.
The third mistake is to assume that other countries are not equally guilty of perpetrating such interrogation and torture - there is little doubt that every country that possesses even the shape of an intelligence agency has been forced to the use of these techniques.
These three elements are not hard and fast facts, but definite possibilities that do show that any opinion formed over Guantanamo Bay is formed with insufficient evidence, inside knowledge, and understanding of what is really going on there in complete detail.
“You make three mistakes in an otherwise excellent and well reasoned dissertation.”
- From you that is almost a compliment, thank you.
”The first is to assume that the US doesn't treat its own citizens the same way - the FBI and CIA use these torture techniques against American civilians any time it is deemed necessary, and a matter of national security.”
- Does this make it right somehow? Sorry but there is no excuse for this behavior. Either we are the good guys or we are not. Sorry to be simplistic, but it is how the war is being sold to us now.
“Unfortunately we don't have 100% reliable truth serums, mind probes, or any of those other sci-fi devices that would remove any need for torture.”
- You are assuming that torture is reliable, which it is not. You torture someone, when they break they are going to tell you whatever they think you want to hear to stop the torture. This is not always the truth.
”I am sure that the majority (I cannot say all) of the people involved take no pleasure in what they do.”
- Yes I am sure they are normal people that would otherwise be working in a bank or something.
”The second mistake you make is assuming that no significant or useful information has been garnered through these methods of torture and interrogation. If there was nothing more to know, or success was minimal, I do believe that the people in charge would release the prisoners. This would be a coup on two levels: A) appearing more humanitarian and fair, and B) removing the ongoing costs of housing, feeding, and other overheads of maintaining such a prison. It is obviously in America's best interest to release the prisoners if they are not learning anythign from them.”
- This is not a mistake. I am simply claiming that in order to market ourselves as the good guys we cannot be seen to be torturing people who have not been charged, tried or found guilty of any crime. Oh and as for B, you think America gives a shit how much money is spent on this war? Maybe it does but this prison camp is not a significant amount of the budget. And we are way past A.
”The third mistake is to assume that other countries are not equally guilty of perpetrating such interrogation and torture - there is little doubt that every country that possesses even the shape of an intelligence agency has been forced to the use of these techniques.”
- Well Lauriesman you disappoint me. In so many of our discussions you are the eternal optimist. The one that claims that a few abstinence lessons will have teens saving themselves until marriage. It seems rather sad to go down the road of saying, well everyone else is doing it so why don’t we? All I am saying, and you for one I would expect to understand this, is we are better than this. This is our example of how to be, this is the greatest country in the world an here is why. Torturing people for these reasons is akin to saying, “well he started it.”
”These three elements are not hard and fast facts, but definite possibilities that do show that any opinion formed over Guantanamo Bay is formed with insufficient evidence, inside knowledge, and understanding of what is really going on there in complete detail.”
- No, there is a really simple check list:
Have the prisoners been charged with a crime?
Have the prisoners been told what charges are against them?
Have the prisoners been given the right to answer for their crimes or offer a defense of some kind?
Have the prisoners been found guilty of a crime?
Since the answer is no to all of the above interrogatories, we are guilty of breech of international law and we are hypocrites for pretending to export our freedom and democracy, but at the same time refusing to act in a manner conducive to the fundamental values we seek to export.
Actually torture can be reliable, if conducted properly - part of that protocol involves asking questions that the answers are already known for, and cross referencing different testimonies. If it wasn't accurate or useful, it wouldn't be used.
In regards to B - the point was that IF the interrogations were proving fruitless, then they would have been abandoned BEFORE the massive loss of PR. In addition, ANY saving the government can show, is a media positive for them.
In regards to point C, you missed the actual point which was that to other governments, the US hasn't actually lost in creditability. All governments know they are equally guilty, the US just happens to be the one caught with their hand in the cookie jar so-to-speak.
Remember that all governments are more or less the same - they are bodies of politicians and beaurocrats.
This is not about they started it, or everyone else does it - its just an acknolwedgement that regardless of what is said in public, the private opinions of international governments are actually more in accord. It is always a mistake to confuse propaganda and media grandstanding with actual policy and position.
how many people fail to think any other way apart from through their genitals. I've heard the saying that a man can either use his brain or his genitals but not both at once, but from the answers here I would say most have been abusing this that they forgot how to use their brains in anyways.
We are talking here about people who actually BELIEVE in something. They have a belief that goes against sexual arrousment except uner wedding bless. I know this may be too hard for everyone here to understand but just cuz you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not credible. When Ghandi refused to abide by the British corrupted rule he went fasting. He believed in this and for that he was a hero. You have forgot what it feels like to believe in something that it is stronger than your physical needs and that is pitiful.
Now, to the other point, if you think that torture is justifiable in anyway then you are sick and trust me, if YOUR people were the POW who were undergoing torment (in a manner that is hurtful to them such as this manner is heartful to those prisoners) you'd be screaming your head off to humanitarian services but unfortunely you're too brainwashed by media and government to be able to be in someone else's shoes.
There is absolutely no political body in the world that approves of torture as a way to get information cuz it IS unreliable whatever you may think they do there.
Let me give you a little history lesson at the end. Do you know why a thousand years ago Islam swept through the world? Cuz whenever a non-muslim saw how a muslim acted in his life (humility, kindness, virtue and honor) they were so impressed they sought to embrace the religion that promoted these values.
When muslims look at what YOU do, believe me, no one is gonna be very impressed ad you are only breeding more hatred from the muslim world but what can I say about a country that revoted someone like Bush. Sad....very very sad
I won't aruge you with you on the issues of belief, or your stand on torture. I do want to, however, clarify one thing. Islam didn't sweep the world because it was attractive. People didn't convert because they saw the (humility? kindness? virtue? and honor? was it??) of Muslims. Islam invaded other countries. It was either CONVERT OR DIE. It spread with the growth of the Islamic empire. If it was such an attractive and sought after religion, then the entire Mediterranean Coast (which was invaded at one point or another by that empire) should still be Muslim. Get this: IT'S NOT.
For the exception of few. It just seems like hate is perpetuated for all the wrong reasons. If "Don't do to others what you wouldn't like to you" applies than. Don't blame the 9/11 terrorists. If the world, which gathered at Auschwitz recently; was there to condemn the atrocities commited on Jews, while turn a blind eye on waht is happening in our own back yards. Then shame on them, two faced bastards of the World. Torture is torture; to American or any other human being. However it seems like when torture is orchestrated by Americans than it becomes ok. Otherwise his Highness G.W.BUsh has the freaking audacity to question Chinese on their human rights issues. We as people should not condone atrocities commited to others, just because CIA and FBI routinely conduct this tortures. To overlook and pretend that it is ok, it only means anyone and anywhere can commit these cruel acts. Lets say, these detainees are released after all the torture and nothing substantial is found. 10 years later when the water is calm, and we have somehow forgotten all about Guantanamo. And one of them or a group of them decide now they are going to stick it again, up USA's pucker. If last time was only 3000 (9/11) this time they make sure it is 30,000. Their cause for doing that will be the humiliation and torture they endured in the hands of GI's. How will you react? Are we going to Rant again about this Turban wearing freaks, etc etc? Well think again, as what goes around does come around. The conduct of USA right now is shameful and repercussion will be heavier on all. America is the only Nation that has actually used Nuke on its enemy and it is the only nation that does not allow others to posses the same arsenal. This is because of fear. What happened on 9/11 was of the same magnitude. Many innocent lives were destroyed and still we don't learn. These so called terrorists, didnt use any High tech weaponry, to let Americans know that they are vunerable, they used plastic forks and box cutters to subdue and terrorize, do you think they will just say "Thank you USA for your kindness to release us" Think again. I have travelled the world with Army, in the late 70's and early to mid 80's USA consulate in foreign soil was like a mirrage on a desert. Every national wanted to come in, every national wanted to shake our hands and embrace us, hang out with us. some nationals would invite us to their homes and we would sit together and have fun. Now I hear stories from my buddies, when they are in foreign soil, they stick together for fear, they roam about incognito. And to my surprise these soldiers are talking about European nations, not Middle East, where you'd think thay would have the fear of reprisal. Today wehn americans travel abroad they become conspicuos, nothing on them to give them up as Americans and here we are condoning these acts of terrorism in Guantanamo. Think again. whats the difference between who commited terrorism and the one who perpetuates it; in the name of Freedom and Peace. In Islam it is permissible to touch a woman (yOur Wife) who is menstruating, to eat with her and she is allowed to perform any act of sex (Oral) the only thing not allowed is vaginal penetration. Which medically is also not recomended at all. If this is true (The story)Than it is once again a waste of time. Because in Islam, you are excempted from anything and everything, if it means sustain yourself. For Example. IN Islam it is forbidden to eat swine, however if thats all that is available, or if forced on, then you can consume without prejudice. Islam is very flexible for those who know it. But for those who dont. They just repeat what they hear. @Tempest. Islam did spread and converts were attracted to it by its peacefulness and kindness. Some became muslim in that era because of its flexibility. The theory of, convert or die is after 9/11. Chek out facts before you retort. Most of Western writers, especially under the influence of the Church, have never failed to accuse Islam of spreading by force of the sword. The causes of this prejudice lie mainly in the fact that the spread of Islam has often occurred at the expense of Christianity. While Islam has for centuries obtained numerous conversions from Christianity without much effort or organized missionary activities, Christianity has almost never been able to achieve conversions from Islam in spite of sophisticated means and well-organized missionary activities, and it has always been at a disadvantage in its competition with Islam for fourteen centuries. This has caused its missionaries and most of the orientalists to develop a complex within themselves by depicting Islam and introducing it as a regressive, vulgar religion of savage peoples. (John Cogley, Religion of Secular Age; Muhammad Asad, The Road to Mecca) The same attitude has unfortunately maintained toward the Holy Prophet of Islam. This is clear in the confessions of some unbiased writers of the West: According to P. Bayl
Clearly you assume that all the readers here are European or American, and therefore, not having had much contact with muslims.
To try and pin this on 9/11 and America's response to it is a nice attempt. However, the Muslims problem has been here from earlier. You see, after 9/11, the rest of the world became aware. But we, my dear kinko, have known for ages about the attrocities committed in the name of Islam. The murders of Egyptian Christians (copts), terrorism in southeast Asia, mass murders against non-Muslims in Africa, terrorism against Christians in Lebanon, and so on and so forth.
The muslim's quest to create a nation of Islam is undeniable. The muslim's quest to convert every nation they're in is undeniable.
Stop these silly arguments of yours. Islam was spread by doves and beautiful reindeer... It's called the Islamic invasion for a reason. It's the end of the age of reason and science for arabs for a reason. It's history, kinko. Islam was spread by the sword only. Only recently has that changed somewhat. Now, muslims also use their wealth to convert people (in certain countries), or to pressure them into turning radical.
I'm not going to respond to your stupid arguements. You are a self proclaimed Christian arguing that torture is a good idea. Have some love for your fellow man and stop being a prick.
You really need to learn something about history cuz obviously you ARE brainwashed by the biased media you encounter. Try to read a bit history about Islam and it's beginning and you'll understand that the statement of "islam was spread by the sword" is simply a statement created by the church in the dark ages to justify their hate for Islam as well as the crusades etc. It is only the dark ages for arabs because they have deviated from the virtues that helped islam spread in the old ages.
When muslims invaded a country, all the poeple were allowed to pursue the religion they choose, nothing is forced and the stupid notion of "convert or die" was NEVER raised. Now before you reply to this with more stereotyped muslim hate just go read something useful for you and try to understand that the world is sadly not as you see it. I do not believe that muslims should force their religion on others, but then again, I don't believe that Europe or the US should force THEIR beliefs on muslims.
I am talking from personal experience. If you can beat that, be my guest.
Don't preach to me. I have seen with my two eyes the atrocities they have committed in my country. I have lived through a war, where muslims turned against their own country, in support of other muslims.
I have had to be careful when I moved about because the simple fact that I have a christian name meant instant death at muslim checkpoints.
I have also studied the history and learned of the violence against my countrymen by the invading muslims. "Convert or Die" was raised. "Convert or Die" is still the order of the day, even if it has become a little covert now.
I am sick and tired of people standing up for something they don't understand, or don't want to understand. Being the devil's advocate has become the standard.
so, Breathe, before you criticise my comments,you should leave YOUR biased sources, and step into the real world.
buddy...honestly and from the depth of my heart...blah blah blah all your posts i read in this page was about blah blah blah i know nothing about Islam but blah blah i wll just speak crap blah blah
1) "In Islam, women are considered to be dirty when they are menstruating. Men are forbidden from coming in contact with them blah blah "
you are deadly wrong...why don't you just admit you are so ignorant about this issue? women ARE NOT considered while they are menstruating according to Islam...if your wife is menstruating you can sleep with her..kiss her without nullfiying your abulation or anything..onle sexual intercourse is forbidden while menstruating
2)"I have also studied the history and learned of the violence against my countrymen by the invading muslims. "Convert or Die" was raised. "Convert or Die" is still the order of the day, even if it has become a little covert now."
are you hindu? if not then your above quote is blah blah too because the myth of forced conversion has been refuted by many non Muslim historians and has been refuted in front of me personally yesterday as i witnessed the conversion of an American catholic friend
It seems every thread is the same, no one is willing to actually listen to what the other has to say....
I guess I imagined all those people being killed just for being non-muslims. I guess I imagined having friends who are dead now. I guess I imagined those checkpoints, and suicide bombings, and foreign forces allying against me.
Of course I imagined all this. You Kino, Breathe, and Urban_Miracle are of course right. Living in your isolated microcosm, you know the truth. I have been imagining things that's all... Sorry about bothering you with my 'blah', I guess nice fantasies are more acceptable to you than the hard truth...
May I ask where you are from tempest where you've seen all these horrible things?
Now let me tell YOU something, i don not speak from biased sources, I speak from first hand sources, from things I know personally and not from biased sources. From muslims I see and interact with.
And yes, a menstruating woman is NOT considered dirty in islam and that point alone is enough to falsify things you say as biased and inaccurate. A man is allowed to do anything with his wife when she's menstruating except sexual intercourse.
REgardless of where you are from or who you actually are, you are just biased. Unfortunately; yours is perpetuated with hate. If you, as a person, have a hate bone inside of you, it makes you not better than any or all the terrorist of the World. Because there is absolutely no difference. I have tried, along with many others to enlighten you about Islam, but it seems like, we are just playing a guitar for a Donkey eeey. (NOt that you are a Donkey) Islam is a religion of peace and I guarantee you in a very near future we will also find out that, most of this attrocities commited around the World in the name of Islam, are actually commited by those who are not only NONE Muslims but their enemies. I would like to open your eyes historicaly. Just think, afterr the World WarII, which community has actually benefited out of it the most and why? NOw there are others here who had asked you Where are you from? If you can answer that, we will perhaps have a better picture of you.
Of course Kinko. I didn't realize. It's Israel that flew into the WTC on 9/11. It's Buhddists that blew up the train station in Madrid, and I guess it's little green men that are fighting against democracy and Iraqis in Iraq.
Why do you assume that you can just say something for me to take it at face value? I have been blessed (well, cursed) with actually seeing these people. Not in a European setting, rather, in their own lands. All they have is hate.
You know, I had a long line of argument for you, but I won't talk anymore. Simply denying that it's fundamentalist muslims responsible for all these things that I mentioned renders your every word meaningless.
It's the usual Islamic argument of the "Zionist/Imperialist American" enemy.
Kinko, and the rest: I'm from Lebanon. I've lived through war. I've lived surrounded by fundamentalist muslims. I've seen the Lebanese muslims prefer to fight against the Lebanese, alongside other muslims.
Don't preach to me. When you have the inside view that I do, you will not be so ignorant. As for you, Kinko, there's nothing I can say to YOU, because YOU are a useless propaganda machine, and you know it.
