Some 20,000 Chinese rioted in Shanghai because of Japan's atrocities in WWII. Japan's embassy said 2 Japanese were injured after being surrounded by the mob.
Cars were flipped and windows were broken while Chinese Riot Police stood nearby. Chants of "kill the Japanese" and "Japanese pigs get out!" were heard echoing throughout the streets.
Xinhua, China's official news agency, quoted government spokeswomen, Jiao Yang blamed Japan, saying "Japan's wrong attitudes and actions on a series of issues such as its history of aggression,"
Anyone else see a BIG BIG problem with this? Government supported riotting over atrocities that took place over 50 years ago during a World War?
Forget Iraq, forget Iran, forget the middle east. A bloodthirsty Orient could push the mankind to the brink of extinction.
Does anyone realize how strong the Communist Chinese Army is? How disciplined they are? Iran is a joke compared to China. Even North Korea is a flea compared to the might China quietly wields. What's the UN job again?
The Japs, unlike the Germans have never accepted responsibility for their war crimes. Until they do they can't be trusted with a permanent Security Council seat.
McArthur was right to insist the Japanese Constitution limit Japan's military to a small self defense force only. Its a pity that Bush seems hell bent on forcing the Japs to re-arm. I guess war criminals look after their own.
The big problem with the Chinese is that the Japs have never really apologized for what they did. Saying that they "just need to get over it" is on the same plane with telling the Jews to "just get over the holocaust".
Unfortunatly most of the negative information out there about WWII has to do with Nazi Atrocities, but when it comes to Japan its kinda glossed over.
Other than apologizing for something their fathers and grandfathers did over 50 years ago (Japanese rivaled the Nazi's at the degree of atrocities commited for sure) how do you repent for something like that? Do you propose that the Japanese pay reparations to the Chinese offspring?
Am I the only one that sees the underlying issue of a GOVERNMENT SPONSORED RIOT against another nation? I 'm pretty sure Germany did things similar to that during the 30's.
When I say government sponsored riot, I mean that the government didn't stop a mindless, chaotic mob. I would venture to guess it was encouraged and incited by the Chinese government.
I don't think the japanese government has ever even made a formal apology to China for their actions during WW2. I'm generalizing a lot but basically Germans regret what they did during WW2 and the Japanese regret that they lost.
I don't think you realize just strong the anti japanese sentiment is in mainland China. The government doesn't need to do anything to trigger a riot against the japanese over something like this. I highly doubt the government took a direct active role in inciting the riot.
I doubt the government sponsored it. Riots destroy areas and since it was in their own country, why would the government want to start something that is going to tear up the place? Makes no sense to me.
Again, why do the Japanese have to appologize for what they did during World War 2? It would be great if they did, but you honestly think even the most heartfelt and sincere apology from the highest of the highs of Japan would change win the hearts and minds of an irrational mob of Chinese?
I think you're all forgetting that China IS a Communist country where propoganda is probably a common occurance. Does noone else see the danger of collected Chinese outrage directed at a neighboring sovereign state?
On another note, what country is more trustworthy and diplomatic -- China or Japan? Someone please tell me I'm not the only one who sees a danger in this situation.
bc- Read the part about the Chinese government spokesperson laying blame of the riot on Japan. Revisionist history is a POWERFUL tool in a country with little personal liberties.
RomJeremy- What could a mob REALLY do to damage the actual infastructure of their own land? With all due respect, your point is relatively irrelevant considering there is widespread HATRED towards a peaceful country whose charged with not apologizing for atrocoties commited during the 30's and 40's. To make matters worse, the government leans more towards encouragement of such actions.
If I really am insane, please tell me. But I really dont think I am.
You are thinking that the government will actually cause some kind of conflict with Japan. The only conflic I see being caused here is the people effected by WW2.
Might I suggest you research more into the Japanese occupation of China? It might allow you to see things less biased.
Arg.. You're not reading what Im saying. I understand what happened in China during WW2, I've read up on it, I've heard stories.. How does that have ANY bearing on Japan's current global situation?
Why do the riot police watch as stones are being thrown at Japanese consulates?
Why are hordes of irrational Chinese shouting things like "Kill the Japansese!"?
Why are Chinese government officials blaming Japan for causing the riot because of their "wrong attitudes and actions on a series of issues such as its history of aggression" -- What the hell does that even mean? It's double speak, pure and simple.
Why is there still a communist totalitarian state in our civilization? Has noone realized that a totalitarian communist state has no purpose other than to make everyone think alike and do alike?
Does China not remind anyone else of Orwell's "1984"? Remember the "Five Minute Hate"?
What has China done that makes them so warm and friendly to everyone?
I still don't get it. This is raising all of my warning flags.
Ive read a tad more about present-day Japan's leaders view of the past and they most definately should do more to repent and be honest about their NATIONS history. However, this in NO way changes my opinion on the bigger picture. Sure, apologies are nice and all, but it looks like the Chinese have a deep seeded grudge and want revenge.
Revenge and 50 year old grudges... beneficial to the world?
except the Chinese government has absolutely no ambitions to attack japan. In fact, there's some sort of conference going on b/t japan and china right now. The relationship is normalized there is zero threat of armed conflict.
China isn't a threat to anyone except maybe taiwan and the americans. I don't want to bother talking about taiwan. As for the americans.. well the threat there is that China will match the US as a dominant world power. It's not an armed conflict threat, merely a threat of a political rival. To the rest of the world, what difference does it make if we get one more global superpower.
I think you're still being influenced by all that anti communist propaganda.
The problem here is that when Japanese go abroad (on even on their home turf) they do nothing to ingratiate themselves, they are rude, obnoxious, arrogant and generally a*sholes. (at the risk of steriotyping here) Generally they are the oriental equivalent of Saudis that have forigners working for them. This may have more to it than just Japans WWII atrocities.
Well, I'm not condoning either nations behavior. And if you're following this story at all, its escalated a great deal in the past 24 hours. No I have never been to China but I have been to Japan. I don't intend to stereotype either nationality because everyone is an individual and one ignorant Japanese or Chinese doesn't make them all ignorant.
But to whomever accused me of being "influenced by all that anti communist propaganda" how can you still condone a nation whose media outlets are state controlled? Where personal liberties are slighted for the good of the "peoples"? Have you been to China? Mainland China? I would venture to guess that their history books are a slightly biased towards one side.
You can't honestly believe that China has the best intentions for world peace? They have the LARGEST military (personnel) in the world, followed closely by North Korea, followed by America.
If this blows up in everyones face and escalates into a war, I wont be laughing and saying "Hah hah -- I told you so"... I'll be in a much, much more somber mood.
I have been to mainland China on many occations. I'm going to be visiting again in May... Seriously, things are not that bad. You're still under delusions that communism is just pure evil. If mainland China were to hold free and open elections this second, the Communist Party would retain control. The far east has always valued stability and I think it's very hard for someone from a society which so strongly emphasis the individual to understand.
So you don't believe in individual rights? I don't believe that Chinese people are evil BECAUSE they live in a Communist state, but I do believe that the Communist leaders ARE perpetuating evil.
Simple question -- What form of government is better, in practice, Western-style democracy or Chinese Communism? Honest opinion and why, please.
vant makes a very good point. Also keep in mind that China has actually been reducing the size of its military as it's being modernized. Plus, China has a long inland border and it doesn't have a perfect relationship all its neighbours either.
Honestly, I think it's unreasonable to make a straight out judgement on these things. My personal opinion is that the form of government needs to change to match the state of the society. I do think it's very unreasonable for the West to presume that a democratic/capitalist system is the only one that is "just" and to push these systems onto other societies.
I think people tend to lack perspective on what personal freedoms actually represents in a government system. Your personal freedom contributes to your quality of life but it does not dictate your quality of life. You see this in western society as well; certain freedoms are restricted for the interest of law and order. In the end, the citizen's happiness is going to be determined by their quality of life. So, what I'm proposing is that it's quite possible for a majority of people to live contently under restricted freedoms.
The thing you need to realize about chinese politics is that basically every head of state that has come after the emperors basically want to be the emperor. The doctrine for government is still very much influenced by confucius. You can see an example of this in the SARS problem. Both the mainland gov't and the taiwan gov't behaved much the same. Both acted with a great deal of paternalism even though one is "communist" and the other is democratic.
You may be surprised to learn that its not only the Chinese who are upset by the stealthy re-armament of Japan and the possibility of it becoming a permanent member of the Security Council.
People in Australia, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and Vietnam are equally upset, they just haven't taken to the streets - yet!
When people do in mine I will be at the head of the march. Two members of my family died because of Japanese war atrocities.
You should be equally outraged. Don't you know that half of the US POWs captured by Japanese forces in the Phillipines were murdered in captivity? Do a search for 'Bataan death march'
And one further point, I suggest you take a really hard look at your media before claiming it is better than anothers. Is it really more free than China's? It may not have the same legal constraints, but your media does still toe the governments line. When did any of your media last call Bush a war criminal? Blair is regularly called that in the British media, so sometimes is the Australian government in its.
"According to the country’s 1982 constitution, China is a socialist dictatorship of the proletariat (working class) led by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in a united front with other parties. In practice, the CCP fully orchestrates national political activity because party members hold the most powerful government offices." -MS Encarta
I understand everything the Japanese did in WW2; I'm in the military and my unit which emphasizes knowledge of the past, present and future of the Orient. I've been in Japan and I know a deal about their history, especially WW2.
Just because I know someones history of atrocities does not mean I should be OUTRAGED at what their forefathers did during a WORLD WAR over 50 YEARS ago! The fact that you and many others are outraged at the fact that Japan has an ugly history does not change the fact that Japan is easily one of the premier nations today. They have FAR more liberties than China. Look at the faces of the Chinese people taking part in the riot -- do you see any compassion or rationale in their faces? They look like an angry horde. The Japanese who are currently rioting and creating chaos are no better.
Also, harry123 -- Who is China's greatest ally? North Korea I believe. If China gets involved in a war, who do you think would be fighting right alongside them? Remember the Korean war when the Chinese horde came pouring over and pushed American soldiers back to the 38th Parallel, all in the defense of maintaining the "Peoples Republic" of whatever? Im more outraged that the world does nothing to reprimand China and North Korea for their history of Human Rights.
Do you believe that the Chinese has a better human rights record than the rest of the world?
so you're saying that a democratic country has no foreign ambitions and a totalitarian one is naturally going to be a military aggressor?
Look, the Japanese government has NEVER offered a formal apology for WW2. Do you realize what that implies? They DON'T feel enough responsibility for Japanese actions during WW2 to even offer an apology! Yeah, we should all definitely trust them.
Yes, to put it in one sentence, a totalitarian state or party-state is going to be much more aggressive at making everyone conform to their world view than a democratic nation.
What if Japan appologized for EVERY attrocity they committed during WW2 and every other war throughout their very long history -- How would that change the Chinese populations view of Japan, or even your seemingly prejudiced viewpoint? (If you are not actually prejudiced towarads Japan, I appologize) Actions always speak louder than words and Japans actions after WW2 speak volumes more than China's in regard to world peace and stability.
pretend for one second that Germany never apologized for their actions during WW2 and never made any efforts to make amends for what they did during WW2. Now, pretend that a bunch of german business people went to say... Poland on the anniversary of the German invasion of Poland and hired a bunch of local whores of a jewish background (something equivalent actually happened with a bunch of Japanese businessmen in China a few years ago). Then pretend the German government approved a textbook which said something like the German aggression was fueled by their desire to protect Poland and western europe from Russian oppressors or something. Then let's say there's rioting in Israel. Finally, pretend some tactless foreign person goes on a web-board and says that the Israeli government incited the riots and that Germany isn't the real threat, Israel is, because Israel spends more per capital on the military than any nation in the world.
i dont give a flying f*** whether you like or dislike the govt in china or not. The apology from the japanese its not going to be for the gov't but for the people- THE PEOPLE YOU *******-NOT THE COMMUNIST GOVT.
YOu have next to zero knowledge of asian culture. When someone does something wrong and doesnt apologise, those people deserve zero respect - and wrost they are trying to distort facts - ohh sure, the chinese should open up their arms and give them a hug or something... you bitch and complain like if the chinese are barbarians, perhaps you should look at the protest in SK, which is much bigger, and much more extreme. ITs a shame that chinese failed to hold a bigger protest than the ones in Korea. 20000 is pety, compared to those with 50000 in pretty much every major city.
well according to your knowledge, so its 50 years ago, so why on earth are you still complaining about Tiananmen incident? Isnt that nearly 16 years ago? ooooo but the govt that commiteed that crime is still in power, iisnt that just like the one in Japan aka ultra rightist? The so called democratic countries always get out of war crimes, i suppse, because they are "democratic".
yes the japanese have been relatively peaceful, simply they are not allowed to build an army, what are they gonna do with that puny defense force? maybe the americans being there is also another reason they cant do much shit in the last half of the century.
you know what forget about the apology, how about just ADMITTING to what they have done? You know those dam commies in china did admit that the CR and Great leap backward is a "horrid" mistake, and promised to never let it happen again. You know the commies themselves took out the gang of four in china, and when was the last time the so called democratic Japan tried to get rid of their ultra right wing facist govt?
Compare this, when was the last time a japanese was killed in CHINA, because he is a japanese? (1995) When was the last time a chinese was killed in japan because he is a chinese? (it happens yearly, oooo just 2 months ago, 2 chinese were killed by 5 japanese teens, because they are chinese).
Then this one, when was the last time a japanese women was raped in china? what actions did the chinese police took. umm let me see, the one i heard off was like in 2000, and within 2 days the 2 rapists were caught, 1 was shot 1 was sent to life time. What happened to the chinese girl that was raped in japan by 5 japanese teens? all the Japanese police said was "you should be glad that we japanese even touched you". oooo i love japan so much better already.
ooo how many shops in Japan put out sighs where they only ALLOW JAPANESE TO ENTER?
you bitch about the chinese protestor throwing eggs, rocks, etc at the Japanese counsoulate. Perhaps you should look what they have done to the chinese counsulate, didnt they crash a bus at it? Lets have a little flash back, and back to year 2000 where the last of rape of nanking trial was held. When Japanese soldiers who testified, and victims who testified, was attacked with eggs, tomatoes, etc. Shouting pretty much the same slogan.
maybe this is new to you, but dont japanese soldiers who dare to testify against Japan being tthreat by their democratic peace lovin govt? Where some have to immigrate to US so they can confess their guilt?
You know whats fuleing the hate its not just about the apology, the Japanese apologise to the Korean already, but why are the koreans still out there burning japanese goods? SImple, because not only they refuse to take responsibility, they are still trying to golrify their aggression in asia, as a liberation, ignoring war crimes, etc.
maybe its gonna be hard for someone who still lives in the cold war era to understands. A korean once told me that he felt like after being beaten up by a japanese badly for no reason, not only did the criminal got away, that same criminal its still pouring salts all over my wound, making me feel great pain, whats worst is that the world is ignoring it, and instead of stoping the criminal they are telling me to STFU and not be a b*tch. (and i couldnt agree more)
Asian culture are relatively differnt from the west, we are alot more disciplne than the west. We tend to look at the intereset as whole instead for yourself only. We also have alot more repect to ancesstors than an average western nation, even if we never met them once in ourlife.
before a nut like youself claim to know anything about what we are thinking or whats going on in our mind. 5% of those rioters are extremist that want to gut a japanese. 15% suffering from xenophobia. 80% are out there for their parents or grandparents who are neither too old to go themselves or hvae passed away.
and yes it is the japanese fault, if they will atleast stop glorifying their aggression, there wouldnt be a riot here. Did the riot just suddenly pop up or did the japanese did something to provoking?
To your information YES, if the japanese apologise AND stop glogrifying their aggression, we will be willing to be friends. Dont give me this "do you really think that and that if the japanese apologise?' For someone who has never even been to china, and met the ppl living there and ask about their thoughts and feeling, WHO THE F ARE YOU TO EVEN MAKE ASSUMPTIONS?
The apology we are demanding are TO THE PEOPLE OF CHINA - THE PEOPLE YOU GET IT? THE PEOPLE. Its common sense so hard to get through your head that is fill with anti communist propoganda?
since the western media are famous of reporting only half the story just like the july 1st march in Hong kong 2004.
Here are a few chinese hong kong sources. If you dont believe what i translated, go find someone that can read chinese then.
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/ [translation] The demonstrators included people from various provinces, and even from different countries. There was a male from the state of California in the United States. He did not speak Chinese too well, but he parroted the slogans. When people started to throw rocks at the consulate, he did the same. He did exactly the same as the locals.
This Ameriacn is an anti-war activist. He said that he is "opposed to any action that can lead to war" and that "Japan is worse than Germany because she does not know how to acknowledge on her own errors." When he found out that there was a demonstration, he came to the consulate and launched criticisms against his own president: "No Bush! No Japan!"
At first, he just stood in the crowd and observed. When he saw people throwing rocks at the consulate, he learned by example and picked up rocks to throw and yell: "Down with little Japan! Long live China!" His imperfectly pronounced Chinese caused the bystanders to laugh, and some demonstrators even yelled, "Long live the foreigner!" (?????). This foreigner seemed to be quite elated and kept yelling at the Deutsche Welle television camera, "Look! China is changing!"
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/ [translation] Ms. Li wore a red top and stood out in the crowd of demonstrators in front of the Japanese consulate. She explained that she was not out here to demonstrate. "I'm only here to watch the scene." But when she saw the crowd throwing stuff at the consulate and throwing cigarette butts and newspapers on the ground, she got very angry. "If the foreign media should report on the quality of these demonstrators, it will be a disgrace to the Chinese people!"
In order to "influence" other demonstrators, Ms. Li bent down and began to pick up the garbage piece by piece and place them into her plastic garbage bag. Some of the demonstrators were also affected by her, and helped to pick up the garbage as well while saying: "Let the foreigners know about the quality of Chinese citizens!" Still, there seemed to more rock-throwers than garbage-pickers at the scene.
One garbage picker got on a high vantage point and shouted to the crowd: "We are here to oppose Japan, not to destroy our own garden. We will not be looked at by others with contempt!" He asked the people to clap to signify patriotism, with the first demand being not to step on the flower bed outside the consulate. He received the applause of some of the demonstrators.
i just hate the fact that out of the 20000 ppl there were actually foreigners, which meant not there wasnt even 20000 out there to protest.
The chinese govt is soo behind the scene, and they are sooo dumb that they forgot that they have to pay for the damages made......... ooops they are now regreting it i suppose.
what else can i say, the chinese govt sposored to kick their own butt, and hurt their own wallet, which doesnt have alot of money inside and have a large family to feed. Definetely the commie govt in china is definetely retarded, i think what happen since the open door policy is just an illusion.
I dont even know how to respond to you. What is your argument? That grudges and prejudices are justified if your ancestors committed some of the worst atrocities committed by mankind?
Grudges are never acceptable. Prejudices are simply unacceptable detrimental to peace. I hope your views are the fringe of the Chinese people.
You wrote: " Im more outraged that the world does nothing to reprimand China and North Korea for their history of Human Rights.
Do you believe that the Chinese has a better human rights record than the rest of the world?"
No, but it no worse than many others, America included. You said in another post: "Remember Tiananmen Square" Well I do remember, my country took in many thousands of Chinese after that. But I also remember Kent State! And a number of more recent gross human rights abuses, including of a citizen of my country being held illegally, and possibly tortured at Camp X-Ray.
Histories of ever country, without exception, include shameful acts. No country, or political system, has a monopoly on "goodness"! Some of the worst human rights abuses and war atrocities have been committed by freedom loving democracies!
I am not condoning either action. You're not going to catch me in a defense of reprehensible actions by any nation, United States included.
All of you (except for wookie) are avoiding the argument alltogether by trying to steep me in a pissing contest over who's history is uglier. I don't care about who did worse during and after WW2, I care about who intends to do better. And for the past 3 hours I've been reading up on Chinese history and it's only giving me a more disturbing image of China's history following WW2.
"Cultural Revolution (1966-1976), political campaign in China, launched in 1966 by Chinese Communist Party chairman Mao Zedong to eliminate his political rivals and revolutionize Chinese society. In the social chaos and political persecution that followed, thousands died and millions were imprisoned or exiled." -- MS Encarta
This was the founding movement of the political party in charge of China today. It seems to me that the Communist Chinese Government is more of a hurdle to world peace than a facilitator. Am I still the only one who holds this view?
keep in mind that same PM visited a japanese shrine wherein lies class A warcriminals despite protests before this apology. Also, it's the formal written apology that everyone wants. Not to mention the action to actually back it up, ie no revisionism in textbooks.
bc is not on the fringes. You're the one who is way off base. I don't think you're trying to be an ass but you're being awfully pretentious when you tell people their feelings are unjustified. That there isn't general violence against the Japanese all the time is the most we can expect. To expect people to just forget and forgive is too much. You might come to understand that if someone invaded your country, threw your countrymen into pits and buried them alive.
opfor1, you're simply wrong about the Chinese government being a threat to world peace. China has little to no territorial ambitions other than taiwan. There are a few disputed border regions.
China is called the Middle Kingdom. It's always been concentrated on domestic concerns and has never had significant international ambitions. China has a very large military force but it does not have a significant naval force. This means that it does not have the capacity to mount significant attacks on anyone other than inland neighbours and that simply isn't going to happen. Remember, both Pakistan and India have nukes.
Also, US military spending matches the total military spending of every other nation in the world. It's something like 8 times larger than the budget of the chinese government. If anyone is a threat to world peace....
I am not supporting Japan's lack of appologies following WW2, or their revisionist history thats reportedly taught in their schools. It's simply reprehensible but two wrongs never make a right.
"bc is not on the fringes. You're the one who is way off base."
I would imagine bc's VIEWPOINTS are not in the fringe, but did you read his replies? They seemed to be a seething, ramble. I can also assure you that my viewpoint is not "way off base". I would venture to guess that the majority of conservatives have little trust for China's government (I consider myself a fiscal conservative/social liberal, libretarian).
"To expect people to just forget and forgive is too much."
Im not asking people to forget and forgive, I'm imploring them to. If Japan shows no sign of aggression, then animosity towards them is only a hurdle to peace. The same rule applies to Japanese who hold animosity towards Chinese for any reason.
"You might come to understand that if someone invaded your country, threw your countrymen into pits and buried them alive."
Im sure I would be beyond words if this were to happen. But how long should this rage exist? When is it time to stop?
I thank you for acknowledging that I'm not being an ass. I'm simply attempting to highlight China's seething rage over Japan, whose government and economy is actively contributing towards the path of peace and prosperity worldwide.
I appreciate that you keeping this discussion calm.
The point that needs to be emphasized is that there's normal relations b/t China and Japan. There are riots every time the Japanese touch an old wound but there is trade and business that goes on between the two countries. bc really isn't on the fringes. There are a lot of chinese people who make note of every japanese misdeed. It really borders on a cultural taboo to do business with or otherwise deal with the Japanese. Things are calming down though.
I think it's really unreasonable to claim that either side is going to trigger an armed conflict any time soon. That being said, there are very real strategic concerns for China. If Japan reestablishes a significant military force then that means another potential threat. See, it's all about your perspective. No one is actually going to act as an aggressor but everyone is weary that another will be an aggressor.
I just think it's a bit insensitive for you to suggest that China is some sort of armed threat when the issues is over some tactless actions on the part of the Japanese.
I agree with you in saying China doesn't have the capability to wage war comprable to WW2. However, in a nation where democracy as an idea is oppressed and a singular party has maintained power for over 50 years, I cannot help to question the Chinese Governments unspoken agendas (I don't trust any governments unspoken agendas, mind you).
The US military is far different from the Chinese military. The US military has primarily played the role of international police since the late 40's (for better or worse is debatable).
Do you believe the Chinese are teaching their kids revisionist history? If so, to what degree? What purpose does the Communist Youth League, which was 68 million strong in the late 90's?, play in their political process?
We're definately beginning to find our common ground, however I point out the quote from the government official who blamed the Japanese government for the riot -- "Japan's wrong attitudes and actions on a series of issues such as its history of aggression,"
Do you believe that Japan does not deserve a seat at the UN Security Council? They've made no outward transgressions towards other sovereign nations in the past 50 years that I'm aware of.
from my studies of Japan and WWII - the emperor was pardoned and exhonerated of all war crimes. Japan has also re-written all their history books with total bullshit about the war.
to be honest, i have never met a bad Japanese person (and i have met a few) they have always been curteous and polite - but they have no idea about history. we had japanese exchange student here in australia that freaked out when they saw we had a captured japanese mini sub retrieved from sydney harbour on display in the war memorial. they have no idea as to what happened.
i can understand china being pissed with them. their ultimate leader was let off, and their history denies all knowledge of attrocities commited by them.
I think the notion that the form of government determines the foreign policy is a fallacy. Russia has become democratic but it remains a rival to the US, both political and military. You see this in Kosovo, where when NATO moved in, the Russians also made a move. The rivalry remains despite the change in government.
What I'm getting at is, China is going to remain a political and military rival to the US even if there is democratic reform. Like I said, if China were to have free and open elections right this second, the Communist Party would win and it wouldn't even be a close contest. I say that without any doubts. The Communist Party acts in the best interest of the country and the party in its foreign policy exactly like any other ruling party. It simply isn't in their best interest to act with military aggression. China is becoming an economic and political powerhouse and the government isn't going to jeopardize that by doing something stupid.
I don't really think the domestic situation in China is at issue. However, since we're already talking about it, I might as well comment. I'm sure most people wouldn't mind democracy and more personal freedoms. That being said, there's always been an emphasis on stability in far eastern culture and that means that people are willing to wait for gradual change. The simple reality is that the level of oppression in China isn't overbearing. The vast majority of mainlanders can live contently under it. I think in the west you get a slanted view of this because much of what you hear is from dissidents. I'll use Falun Gong as an example. I think a lot of people in the west think that there are mass arrests, security forces beating down practicioners, etc. The truth is the people in the parks who used to practice Falun Gong as an exercise stopped doing Falun Gong and switch to ballroom dancing or whatever the new hip exercise is. Sure, they shouldn't have to switch, but on the other hand they don't really care all that much either way. The occational protestors over this thing are usually foreigners. What I'm getting at is that people in mainland China are generally content with the government and they aren't about to push forward changes that are likely to come eventually anyways.
As for the education of the youth... well I was a Young Pioneer, which is like the youth communist organization and I think I'm pretty well adjusted. Actually, there's a lot of value in those organizations because frankly communist ideals are basically pretty good. I remember reading about good'ol comrad Lenin eating a humble dinner of bread and butter like the common man. Pretty amusing in retrospect, but actually not a bad value to teach to children.
understand the anger towards Japanese revisionist history. I have also met quite a few Japanese people and they were always polite and courteous as well. I have yet had the pleasure of meeting any Chinese folk, and I'm sure they are the same way.
My whole point of starting this discussion was to call into question the actions of the government and whether or not the government was behind the protests in the first place? Something must have gotten these people worked up in a frenzy and I would like to know what that something was. Why were the riot police standing around while they broke windows and threw rocks? Why did the government officials not immediately ask for calm, like civilized nations always do? Why did the government then justify the mob and also lay blame at the feet of the NATION of Japan (civilians included).
It's not the Japanese individuals fault if they are ignorant of truth about their past, but rather those who decided to write the history books.
I think the notion that the form of government determines the foreign policy is a fallacy. Russia has become democratic but it remains a rival to the US, both political and military. You see this in Kosovo, where when NATO moved in, the Russians also made a move. The rivalry remains despite the change in government.
What I'm getting at is, China is going to remain a political and military rival to the US even if there is democratic reform. Like I said, if China were to have free and open elections right this second, the Communist Party would win and it wouldn't even be a close contest. I say that without any doubts. The Communist Party acts in the best interest of the country and the party in its foreign policy exactly like any other ruling party. It simply isn't in their best interest to act with military aggression. China is becoming an economic and political powerhouse and the government isn't going to jeopardize that by doing something stupid.
I don't really think the domestic situation in China is at issue. However, since we're already talking about it, I might as well comment. I'm sure most people wouldn't mind democracy and more personal freedoms. That being said, there's always been an emphasis on stability in far eastern culture and that means that people are willing to wait for gradual change. The simple reality is that the level of oppression in China isn't overbearing. The vast majority of mainlanders can live contently under it. I think in the west you get a slanted view of this because much of what you hear is from dissidents. I'll use Falun Gong as an example. I think a lot of people in the west think that there are mass arrests, security forces beating down practicioners, etc. The truth is the people in the parks who used to practice Falun Gong as an exercise stopped doing Falun Gong and switch to ballroom dancing or whatever the new hip exercise is. Sure, they shouldn't have to switch, but on the other hand they don't really care all that much either way. The occational protestors over this thing are usually foreigners. What I'm getting at is that people in mainland China are generally content with the government and they aren't about to push forward changes that are likely to come eventually anyways.
As for the education of the youth... well I was a Young Pioneer, which is like the youth communist organization and I think I'm pretty well adjusted. Actually, there's a lot of value in those organizations because frankly communist ideals are basically pretty good. I remember reading about good'ol comrad Lenin eating a humble dinner of bread and butter like the common man. Pretty amusing in retrospect, but actually not a bad value to teach to children.
Anyways.. I can reiterate that I really doubt the government had a direct role in inciting the riot. The same thing happened when that Chinese MiG pilot got killed in the collision with a US spy plane. The government basically chooses to not restrain the mob too much. They make sure no one gets killed, but a little property damage gets the point across. I wouldn't get too alarmed at that kind of government behavior. It's just a PR tactic; a little bit of media manipulation. Let's face it, everyone does it. It's far from an act of aggression. Instead, it's more like maneuvering for political leverage.
I agree with you about the youth groups. Youth groups are an excellent experience for all chidren anywhere in the world. But this brings me to a point -- Do you know what these kids are being taught?
Am I wrong to guess that the CCP (Communist Chinese Party) controls any outlet of media, even the internet? I am leary of any nation that does that. In regards to if a vote was cast tomorrow, of course the Communist Party would win because it's indoctrinated into the minds of the populace that the party way is the only right way. Surely you must believe that. In a nation with an estimated population of 1,294,629,600, I find it hard to believe you could honesty believe that everyone conciously holds the same political, economic, social or cultural viewpoints.
Also, before you accuse a "democratic" nation of controlling the media, they have a generally arbitrary role in it, not a interfering role.
So History is not always written by the victorious
I would interested to know if the average Japanese citizen actually knows what happened in their POW camps, I'm guessing huge amounts of them don't, and yes an aplogy wouldn't go amiss.
I remember when the emperor, or the Prime Minister of Japan came to the UK and that haggard wench on the throne happily took him into her house, despite the slayings of hundreds if not thousands of her fathers troops in the war in Japanese hands.
I dare say no one holds WWII against Germany these, (at least no one with any brains i.e. duh Germans are Nazi's)
But people do still think of the Japanese with distain because of their inability to accept the fact they lost WWII, they committed horrible horrible crimes against humanity, yet they refuse to accept this and even re-write history as to lie about it.
To be perfectly honest I'm sick of hearing about how hard done by these people think they are because people living 50+ yrs ago killed some distant relative or friend of a relative.
It's in the past, isn't it about time we told these whiney b*st*rds to just shut the f**k up for once?
If it's not Jews it's Chinese or someone else who probably wasn't even born when those things were happening, if you weren't there just shut up about it as it's none of your business.
@Lucifer: No one is complaining to you about these things and no one is lording it over you or something, so what's your excuse for bitching? If people who've been victimized are f*k b*st*rds then what does that make someone with no vested interest, like you, who b*tches?
@opfor1: I expected you to make an argument like that eventually. It's really not a fair statement. I think this is where the cultural barrier comes in. The thing you need to understand is, the Communist party is revered despite being criticized. Many mainlanders recognize the failings of the party but they still think generally well of the party. I know I've heard foreigners saying how horrible Mao was, which is fair enough, but he is still like a hero in China. There are taxi drivers with portraits of Mao hanging from their rearviews like it was a crucifix. It's really easy to claim that these people are ignorant or brainwashed but the reality is that people are still grateful to the communist party for opposing the japanese occupation and for giving the country back its pride. I would hardly consider myself brainwashed but even I view the communist party for its good potential rather than its past misdeeds. I still feel like the West gets a very bias view of these things since foreign dissidents seemed to be highly thought of. They tell people what they want to hear I guess, that the West is so much better as a society, etc etc.
As for schools, well I know the schools glorify the communist party. It's not overbearing though, it's more like stories about communist figures and things of that nature. I cited that example about Lenin before. It's almost like teaching bible stories at school, so it serves more to teach moral lessons rather than influence political inclinations. It's like secular set of moral absolutes for individuals to build on. Personally, I think that's a good thing. There is also like military camp for a few weeks for students where they learn to work together and develop comradery with the group. I guess you could read something dark into that but I wouldn't. Things also open up as you get to higher and higher levels of education.
On the topic of media censorship. People know that it's gov't influenced so that quite effectively neutralizes that. There's also very little enforcement of copyright laws, so you can pretty much get any book or film or whatever you want for really cheap.
