An Indianapolis couple that went for a divorce found to their surprise and outrage that Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, added a provision to their divorce that keeps the former couple from teaching their son their beliefs.
The Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau made up a report stating that "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school.".
"Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages." According to the father, their son is being raised as a Wiccan and attends the school as a non-christian.
Bradford, the judge, realizes he just violated their constitutional rights and that he is about to go up to the river, methinks.....
I am not a big fan of any religion, but Wicca versus Catholocism---- hmmm.... which one screws up people more? Which is better for you?
Neither, is the correct answer. The courts have bungled this one and pushed America one step further down the rabbit-hole towards non-Republic status quo.
probably believes that Wiccans dance naked round fires while sacrafice goats to some dark lord... This ruling will probably be overturned on appeal. A judge has no right to overule parents on religion (unless I suppose if it is some waccy religion that makes the boy cut part of his body off or something). By saying that they cant teach their son their beliefs and that the son must observe the same religion as the school he is effectively forcing him to be a Christian. Last time I checked that kind of thing isnt allowed. The judge is probably one of those people who think that they are two sorts of religons: Christians and devil worshippers (complete BS obviously). Christianity isnt for everyone.
That the parents can have that provision taken out of the decree by appealing it to a higher court.
The judge obviously didn't read the part of the Constitution that says we have a freedom of religion. The government has no right to say what we believe and or teach our children to believe.
Does this mean the United States is moving more and more towards the likes of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries that basically make it illegal to teach or organize as a religion other than Muslim? This is obvious something every American should pay attention to and understand its implications.
As far as I can see, this is more about the boys happiness than any religion in general. Also, the Judge very cleverly didn't forbid the practice of the religion, but the teaching of it.
Personally, I don't see how they can possibly police such a thing.
I can partly understand the Judge's concern in that the boy is already going to be dealing with the stress of a family break up, without needing to be alienated at school too.
Normally I agree with you bro, but in this case, I can't see how it comes close to being right, correct, or the best thing for the boy. Let's put the shoe on the other foot, what if he attended a secular (public) school, and the judge forbade his parents from teaching him christianity.... would you feel the same? This judge should be disbarred, he obviously forgot he is there to defend people's rights, nto take them away.
Eidron wrote "probably believes that Wiccans dance naked round fires while sacrafice goats to some dark lord... This ruling will probably be overturned on appeal. A judge has no right to overule parents on religion (unless I suppose if it is some waccy religion that makes the boy cut part of his body off or something)."
Guess that Jews are screwed then with their practice of circumcisions ;)
It’s been a long time since I’ve been in school but I recall the First Amendment of the Constitution (Bill of Rights) stating we have the Freedom of Religion.
“As far as I can see, this is more about the boys happiness than any religion in general.”
- That might be how you see it, but in reality how is a judge going to determine the spiritual needs of a child he has just met better than the parents of said child? Whatever this judge believes he has no right to interfere in these matters.
“Also, the Judge very cleverly didn't forbid the practice of the religion, but the teaching of it.”
- I wonder how clever you would think it if he forbade any teachings of Christianity.
”Personally, I don't see how they can possibly police such a thing.”
- They can’t of course. The point is more that a judge had the audacity to attempt such a thing when it is unconstitutional.
”I can partly understand the Judge's concern in that the boy is already going to be dealing with the stress of a family break up, without needing to be alienated at school too.”
- Oh hell, why not just force the kid to go to Sunday school until he learns the ‘correct’ religion to fit in. Even by your standards you are full of it today. I attended a private Catholic school in England and was open about being an atheist. I was never discriminated against or ostracized because of it. Maybe Americans are less tolerant? It doesn’t really matter; your comments are baseless either way. The judge had no legal right to do what he did under US law. Religious freedom is one of the founding principles of the USA.
On what legal grounds can a US court prohibit a family from teaching their children about the religion they choose ?
From the US Constitution, Amendment I:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..."
If the Congress can't make such a law, then no lower court can do so either and have a Constitutional foot to stand on.
Part of the practice of religion is the teaching thereof.
Even though I abhor religions and their destructiveness which historically far outweighs their benefits, I still keep my nose out of people's private homes and what they teach their kids.
As long as it doesn't involve sex perversions, force, violence or killing, how they practice their religious beliefs in their homes and churches is really no legitimate concern of mine or anyone else's so long as no public civil rights are violated.
It's when public authorities attempt to force their religious doctrines onto others in a public setting, such as in court and in the public classroom, that it angers me. All the more so when they attempt to use the force of law to do it regardless of a clear Constitutional directive in plain language denying them the legal authority to do so.
I'd be surprised if that ruling wasn't struck down on appeal.
That this isn't about christianity. This is about the parents giving the child a faith based education, which will put him at a disadvantage compared to his peers who don't live in the dark ages. The court is making this ruling to provide a better basis for the child to have a productive future. I think it's okay.
Even though almost all of them have the same backbone - God - people swear to the grave by their custom version of what God believes we should do.
Jews, Christ-fanatics, and Caths are close to being the same...only difference is Jesus basically...
I promise, probably not in my young lifetime, but WE WILL have some kind of war over religion in the US...and will all swallow the ironic pill that we see in the Middle East, where they're fighting over religion. I can see Fox News covering it right now...
While this may not be about christianity, it isn't about child welfare either. this is a divorce proceeding, and the childs health and welfare don't seem to have been an issue until this judge decided to 2 cents in about their religion. Since DSS or child welfare services aren't involved, then really the only thing they need to worry about is where the child lives, not who the child sees as a God or Gods. This judge is clearly in the wrong, and anyone who understands the tenents of our Constitution will see that. Society is way too much about conforming these days and not about ree-thinking.
This ruling needs to be overturned and this judge tossed from the bench. This is utterly unbelievable. If the man who made this ruling is allowed to keep his position I'll be very concerned about where this country is heading.
Mberg, there is nothing here about the parents giving their child a "faith-based education," and in fact it states that he attends a regular public school. Not that there would be anything wrong with a faith-based education, because they're taught all the time in America. Furthermore, paganism is not some return to the "dark ages" - if that's what you think it is, you need to go read something on the matter. Anything will do, because that claim show a lack of even the most basic knowledge of the religion.
I certainly hope you are being sarcastic. Just b/c their faith is different from those who are “enlightened” doesn’t necessarily mean it is wrong. As parents, they have the right to teach their child the religion of their choice per the 1st Amendment. I could understand that if the religion taught hate how the judge would be worried. But I think the judge was more misguided by the “common knowledge” about wiccans. I do not see how by not being Christian would make you “less productive in life”. That is as misguided as thinking all wiccans are devil worshippers. We get to hear that BS every Halloween.
@magnus - I completely agree with you. Other than the fact that I personally doubt the Judge innocently forgot that the 1st Amendment right protects more than the mainstream sects.
I hope this is on the news so we can learn more about whether the judge is disciplined.
Ugh, don't remind me, I try not to think about it until I have to. I figure that I have a nice little buffer before they start ruling and taking our basic rights away. I guess if they persist in keeping us tangled in the quagmires if the Middle East, we may as well have a similar government. Just goes to show you that no matter what name they put on their oppressive god, fundamentalists are all the same.
It’s not about the parents or Wicca, it’s about a nomination to the Supreme Court. This judge has seized the ear of the White House to get his name on the list of nominees as a hard core Neo-Con extremist Judge. Dubya is looking at this candidate at this moment and thinking, “he’s my boy”! How much more fascist can they get?
NEO-CON = NAZI
Wake up people, before it is too late, your group may be next.
I’ve been a Wiccan High Priestess for 28 years and a practicing Wiccan for 33 years. I have yet to be invited to one of the ‘naked orgies’ I keep hearing the Wiccans being accused of performing. I wonder why that is?
I'm tired of hearing about neocons and progressive
You people act like all the worlds problems can be laid at the feet and blamed on political parties. Sure, the current administration is very one way when it comes to ALOT of things. But lets get one thing straight, the previous administration was just as corrupt, and just as likely to take us down the road to fascism. Sure Bush is a Nazi and a Neocon and eats babies in white sauce for breakfast. Sure Hollary didn't know a damn thing about a box of papers that jackass Ken Starr was looking for, for five years, and they magically appeared in her office. And I'm sure Vince Foster commited suicide to protect The Clintons. You assholes need to realize the beswt thing about our government. WE put the people in office. WE can take the people out of office. If you didn't vote, STFU. If you did vote and your candidate didn't win, then vote in the next presidential election and hope he does. Christ, you'd think there is some great big conspiracy by everyone about everything. Ok, this judge may have bigger things in mind for himself, but a thinking person can see he does not practice constitutional law, so he won't go far. I suppose you'll call me a neo-con, or maybe some type of baby-eating nazi.... I just really think its pathetic to say all our problems come from a group of 10-12 guys who have very strong views, whether they are right or wrong.... keep in mind, the Demoicratic party LOST The House, The Senate, and The White House for a reason, and if you think the reason was voter intimidation, or fraud, or some great big super conspiracy, then I've got one hell of a bridge that just caem up for sale. Now, get to flaming me ,,i,,
I can't believe that this judge had the gall to try and pull something like this off. If you read the source the father said "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox." So obviously the child has no problems with this religion, he enjoys it and is upset that he is not allowed to celebrate holidays with his parents. So the kids parents are divorced now and he can't celebrate holidays with them...which is going to screw him up more????? As for being ostracized at school, I doubt it very highly or he would be glad about this ruling and he is obviously not happy about it. This judge should have his ass kicked off the bench immediatly, the power has obviously gone to his head!
I wonder why it matters whether he's Wiccan or not.
When I attended school, many, many centuries ago in another millennium, nobody even knew what, if any, religion anyone else in the classroom was, unless they specifically decided to mention it. Nobody was really all that concerned about it and there was no good reason to be.
In the course of my general studies of reading, writing and arithmetic, the subject of religion never came up nor was apparently even thought about, since it really had nothing to do with the essentials of basic public education.
There was absolutely no need for anyone to know what me or anyone else did after school as far as our religions were concerned and nobody ever asked me nor showed any interest that I recall.
In most cases, nobody has to wear a bold tattoo on his forehead loudly announcing his beliefs to the world, "Hey everyone, look at me, I'm [Insert Your Favourite Religion]!", anyway. It doesn't even have to be mentioned or a point of concern in the public classrooms because it's not relevant to their purpose. So why not leave it at home during school hours?
Why can't kids just go to school, do their normal course work, and not even talk or worry about the religions of the other students and other irrelevancies until school is out?
It simply should not be an everyday issue in public schools.
“I'd feel the same - school is cruel enough, without being made to stick out even more.”
- So how does teaching him the constructs of a specific religion make him stick out?
”If his parents want to teach him Wicca then they should send him to a shcool where that won't be a problem for the boy. “
- And where would that be exactly? Maybe he needs to go to school with Harry Potter? What you are basically condoning here is religious segregation among religions. You’d like a school for Baptists, another for Catholics, another for Muslims? This is America, people can believe what they want.
”Sending a pagan to a predominantly Christian or Catholic school is just begging for trouble. I'm sorry that you can't see that, ZCT. “
- You are not in the slightest bit sorry. You are just pushing your hardcore Christian values onto everyone else as you always try to. A school of TRUE Christians would accept a student of any denomination.
”Just as sending a Christian to a predominantly Islamic school would be a Bad Idea (tm).”
- Again, are you simply suggesting that all religions need separate themselves into different schools? Maybe as a next step you’d like to keep the black people in another school so they don’t have to suffer racism. Next we could round up all the Asians and put them in prison, then give all the kids with blond hair and blue eyes special treatment. I wish you would run for führer er I mean president, you have some great ideas.
”Put yourself in the boys shoes for a moment.”
- Stop trying to bend issues for your cause. This boy is being brainwashed by his parents just as Mormons brainwash their kids, and Baptists brainwash their kids etc. It is the right of any parent in America for force their particular religious views onto their children. While in some ways I think the Judge has a point here, the kid has a constitutional right to be brainwashed by his parents in whatever crazy religion they see fit. You are only taking the opposing side here because you have a specific set of religious dogma you’d like to see this kid brainwashed with.
I'd fully agree with you if the issue were purely partisan, left versus right, Democrat versus Republican. However, the Neocons are an extremist offshoot of the right, and so deserve differentiation from them. What you said would be like saying "I'm tired of hearing about Muslim jihadists and Christians." And yes, I do think that their agenda, deception, and actions are destroying this country, and I'll point out why whenever I see fit. Would this judge have made the same decision 10 years ago? Possibly, but it's just as likely that he felt empowered by the pro-Christian stance of the current administration. While Neocons shout the term "judicial activism" at perfectly valid court decisions, judges like this are actually pulling it off. That needs to be pointed out, and blame pinned where appropriate, so people pull their eyes from their idiot boxes and take notice. Otherwise, people will just think "Ho hum, Democrats versus Republicans as usual," as the Neocons chip away at our freedoms.
A friend of mine who is non-catholic just enrolled her daughter in a catholic grade school. The first thing I asked her was if the child would be included in weekly mass or would she be excused. She would be expected to attend mass with the other children. I asked if she would be prepared to address some of the different issues that might arise with this new information she was going to learn at the school, she told me that she would handle it as it came, and that if the girl wanted to convert at a later date when she was able to make that decision she would be allowed to do so. I asked her if she had spoken to the extended family about the same things, so that the little girl wouldn't be put on the spot or condemned when talking about Saints and such, like being told Catholics worship plaster statutes. She said she intended on talking to the family.
I think you can see my point here. Yes going to a private school is often a sought after education for children. You just have to see the complications that can arise when making the choice.
If arrangements were made with the school, and the school is find with the child's attendance, why did the judge intervene? If it is because the child would have to be excused more than attend, there is a problem.
For all you posters who believe religions are not meant to mix:
Just b/c the child IS NOT a christian does not mean he should be excluded from a christian school. What is school supposed to be anyway? – about learning. Just because his parents want to ensure that their boy is still a wiccan does not necessarily mean the child should not attend that school. Perhaps the parents want their child to go there b/c of the high academic standing. As for the “difference”, why not treat the whole “going to mass” thing as a learning experience in direct religious studies experience. Christianity is one of the religions hell bent against the heathen Wiccans anyway. So why not learn about them first hand so as to be capable of defending himself for later in life?
Plus, being of that religion is not a requirement for that school anyhow. Its silly to recommend that he transfer elsewhere when it is not even required (b/c it can’t be). That is direct discrimination based upon his religious beliefs. The judge has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to even suggest such a move to the parents. The fact that the child is a Wiccan is personal business. While the judge is at it, perhaps he should have provided a bible with the divorce decree? That’ll set them heathens straight.
@lauriesman
“If his parents want to teach him Wicca then they should send him to a school where that won't be a problem for the boy.”
- Why should it be a problem? As long as the tuition is paid there should not be. He is not required to believe in the Christian faith at all. Is that what has your undies in a tangle? That he would be providing lip service just so he could attend a good school?
- He is just required to learn and study. It would not be a problem unless the school makes it a problem. The article states that the child has been attending that school previously. Why should there be trouble now as opposed to none before?
“Sending a pagan to a predominantly Christian or Catholic school is just begging for trouble. I'm sorry that you can't see that, ZCT.”
- Even the Christian faith overlaps in Pagan beliefs. All religions overlap somewhere. Being that he is there to learn, wouldn’t that be something interesting to learn? As for “begging for trouble” you make it seem as if this school would not be accepting of anyone who challenges them. As long as he completes all that is required of him study wise. There is no trouble. I believe the “trouble” is the fact that he is expected to convert and he won’t.
I agree with ZCT, why not make some schools for just the christians and another for everyone else. Since it seems that no one dare not infiltrate their domain if they are not true of faith. Perhaps there should be a test like in Indian Jones III to make sure that all possible student canidates are true of faith. That'll keep those heathens out.
share a lot of the same holidays...ever heard of Easter?? Or Chirstmas?? Or Valentines day?? Well all of these "christian" holidays were originally pagan holidays. Take a look at this site and it tells you the origins of these holidays. http://www.2think.org/
If you are 18 you can make a dung heap and worship it! Totally your right. This kid has basically been told that he is not a person. There are more laws protecting animals from abuse than children. In Europe, there was a program they wanted to start (wonder what happend to it??) where you would have to take a test and have your home inspected before you were allowed to get a Pet. If someone failed that test, shouldn't they not be allowed to have children? This child has been told, "You are not a person until you are 18" and it is true. It reminds me of the fight to allow women to vote. Now mind you once they had the vote, prohibition passed because of it. But my point is that before that, they were technically not a person. More recently the fight for rights the black community had to go through before they were People. You look at how school childrens lives changed after Columbine. Just when we were getting somewhere. Metal detectors and Zero Tolerance policy.
Look up Tolerance. Then figure out what zero tolerance must mean and ask yourself if you like teachers and principals acting like that to children.
Why is everyone limiting their comments to religion? The issue at stake here is much deeper than that.
Someone claims the right to determine what I can teach, or expose my children to at home.
Once that precedent has been established, it could mean auto repair, ballet dancing, being a Republlican in a blue state, a Democrat in a red state, hunting, fishing, or whatever.
I don't have a problem with anyone attending any private school. Over the years many of my classmates were non-catholic, they were often excused from some of the studies in the school because of conflicts of their beliefs. We had to go to mass a couple times a week as well as on any holiday that was observed by the catholic faith. We also had religion class that was attended on a regular basis (daily in grade school and weekly in high school). Often studies are interlinked with the faith. If the child were excused from class everytime a catholic bias were added to lecture, the child might miss out on a lot of class. The academic reason for going to the private catholic school is greatly compromised.
I don't believe the judge had a right to tell the parents they couldn't expose the child to their own religion based on the child going to a catholic school. They do teach world religions in catholic school too. The only way the judge would have a right to do this would be if he thought there was danger to the child. I agree there is no danger to children in Wiccan beliefs. The problem is the stigma or the stupidity that people put on the belief.
This goes even further by young people that claim to be wiccan and really don't have a clue. Their actions and stupidity promote false ideas of wiccan belief. For instance, I once dated a guy that claimed to be wiccan, he told me a story of he was walking down the street and he and his friend came to a catholic church, when on the grounds he walked faster jumping up and down saying "ouch ouch ouch" as though the ground was burning his feet. He never practiced any of the wiccan beliefs or celebrated any of their holidays. In fact I knew more of the wiccan beliefs (which is very little) than he did.
This judge was wrong... unless the childs education would be compromised, if that were considered, the school should have been contacted to see if they thought there would be a problem. Only then a decision made. Either way, the parents should be able to teach their child as long as the childs well being is not at risk.
are tolerant souls. We encourage the study of any and all spiritual paths. It's not unusual at all to see a lone Wiccan or Asatruar surrounded by a group of Christians or Muslims or Jews discussing theology. We encourage our children, and ourselves, in the study of different spiritual paths.
For someone of my faith attending a Catholic school would not be hypocrisy or even considered odd. It would certainly not be confusing. Because we are taught from early childhood that all spiritual paths are equally valid and worthy, and we are taught to explore all available paths, we don't confuse easily. We simply see people who have taken a different path to the same source.
This ruling will most definitely be overturned. I don't believe the judge should lose his job. Everyone makes mistakes. I do believe he should be educated about polytheistic religions so he doesn't make a similar mistake in the future.
have said it better. Although I disagree about the judge. I think he did it just to get Bush's attention. At the very least he should be suspended for a while.
This isnt about giving them a faith based education. He is still going to a catholic school (was it a catholic school? correct me if im wrong). The judge has forbidden the parents from teching the boy about Wicca. I recon its just a fear of anything non-christian.
is the family court system in America is so corrupt, and has been for years. The Judges are apathetic and pathetic, the laws border on unconstitutional and are setup in such a way as to provide huge kickbacks to the counties from the federal government. It's disgusting and frightening. You want a reason why divorce is so prevalent in the US? Look no further than the Family Court system. No-fault divorces, asinine, absurdly high child support payments, which are then matched dollar-for-dollar from the Feds and spent how the County sees fit. It's a huge industry, ruining countless families, all so the counties have more money to spend on roads and inflated salaries.
I know this couple personally. They did win their appeal, and she is remarried. There was a lot more to this case than was published.
In this case, it showed the ignorance of the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau and of the judge. The boy in question is healthy, happy, and is not confused at all.
