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07/23/2005 08:54 PM ID: 49244 Permalink   

Man Shot in Underground Was Innocent

 

The man shot dead in Stockwell Tube station was unconnected to the London bombings police have now confirmed. Scotland Yard are describing the death of the innocent man, chased into the tube station and shot dead in a carriage, as a "tragedy".

"We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday... We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," says a statement issued by Scotland Yard.

A former commander of the Metropolitan Police says the consequences of the shooting could be "horrendous" and he expects officers to face criminal charges. He also thinks other officers may refuse to carry firearms after this incident.

 
  Source: news.bbc.co.uk  
    WebReporter: JulesLady Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  62 Comments
  
  some kind cc...  
 
please put the extra "O" in there!! thanks :)
 
  by: JulesLady     07/23/2005 09:03 PM     
  fixed the typo........n/t  
 
 
  by: lurker     07/23/2005 09:30 PM     
  I bet  
 
I bet that people will stop running from the police there for at least a little while.
 
  by: FTFFTW   07/23/2005 10:01 PM     
  Hmmmm. . . .  
 
He came out of a watched building, wearing bulkly clothing on a hot day, and he ran from the cops when ordered to stop in a tube station. Under the circumstances, shooting him sounds reasonable. However, tackling him and shooting him at point blank range may be a different matter. Sounds like the cop was SAS trained.
 
  by: walter3ca   07/23/2005 10:07 PM     
  Law Of The Jungle ?  
 
This is perhaps the worst thing that could have happened given the situation in London. Innocent people are now under attack from both sides! If the terrorists don't get you, then the cops will.
Fundamentally, the war on terrorism is a war about ideals, ways of life, standards of judiciary, policing, and law-making. This is the idealism the terrorists seek to break by spreading fear and irrationality into our western civilisations. By shooting a man in such circumstances, is, in effect, a laying down of arms - they have won. The law of the jungle has arrived.
For those of you who aren't aware of the background to the story, it appears that a man in a thick coat (in summer) was persued by police in the London Underground. The police shouted at him to stop, but he didn't and continued to run toward a stationary train. Four policemen chased him and tackled him to the ground, where one of the policemen immediately shot five rounds into the back of the mans head, killing him instantly.
This is summary execution, no more, no less, whether the man was connected with the terrorists or not, and as such the policemen should be charged with intentional homicide. Our morals and standards are shattered beyond revertion. This if anything will prove to further legitimise the terrorists cause, in their eyes.
There is one fundamental law upon which the entire judicial, and penal framework in democratic legislatures is based .... 'innocent until proven guilty'. At what stage did this poor man have the ability to prove his innocence?
 
  by: sibanu   07/23/2005 11:40 PM     
  prove his innocence  
 
perhaps by not running from armed police
 
  by: WavyV   07/24/2005 01:10 AM     
  A man  
 
a day after an attempted bombing ran from armed police after being told to stop.

If they prosecute these officers, it'll do more harm the chair leg ever did.
 
  by: Domo1 MkII   07/24/2005 01:30 AM     
  @sibanu  
 
You hit it right on the money. This one killing by the authorities, the “police”, will demoralize the populous to a point the terrorist could never have hoped for by just blowing up a train station. The citizens confidence in the police has been shattered. A major foundation of society has been undermined. This does not bode well.
It will take a lot more than this to break the UK. Hitler couldn’t do it with carpet bombing. In the long run this will just piss the English off more and keep them involved in the war.
It’s almost as if the terrorist were trying to revive the Crusades. Or break the backs of the tax payers.
 
  by: valkyrie123     07/24/2005 01:37 AM     
  are you serious?  
 
a suspected bomber ran when told to stop and was shot.

These police officers are hero's as far as most of us are concerned.
When they are arrested, charged with murder and have their lives ruined, then the public morale will crash, because the police's tiny ability to protect us will be gone.
 
  by: Domo1 Mkii   07/24/2005 01:40 AM     
  I don't believe the 'Bobbies' were wrong  
 
I don't believe the cops should be prosecuted over something like this, you have to take everything into account:

Subway bombing the day before
Suspect not yeilding confronted by cops
Suspect wearing large winter jacket
Suspect under observation
Home was also under observation
etc.

I think they had a right to 'shut him down' in lieu of everything that has happened lately. If anything those officers should have been commended for they quick decision making and risking THEIR lives for the public...

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if that was their, terrorists, plan all along. A couple of years ago some Palestinians shot a man and his son and tried to make it look like the Israeli's did it [not that they're innocent either]. They even video taped the whole thing.

Its not like groups 'like that' haven't done that sort of thing before... this just might be a continuation...
 
  by: FreakKeeper     07/24/2005 02:05 AM     
  Obvious conclusions...  
 
People like you opposing this shooting piss me off. You'd be the first to complain should the police have let him run onto the train and bomb the shit out of it. How could they possibly be in the wrong. The police would have told him they'd shoot if he didn't stop running. So he's clearly guilty of something even if it's not of the bombings.

Anyone who's stupid enough to run from armed police should be shot in the head anyway.
 
  by: Dook   07/24/2005 02:12 AM     
  @FreakKeeper  
 
"I don't believe the cops should be prosecuted over something like this..."

I think they should - this was a very serious incident. Whether they ought to be found guilty or not is another matter. That is why we have trials, after all. To suspend such proceedings would only be yet another sign that authorities now have a blank check to do what they want in the name of fighting terrorism.

"you have to take everything into account:"

I'm sure the courts will - that's their job.

"Subway bombing the day before"

Granted, people were on edge, so that should be factored in.

"Suspect not yeilding confronted by cops"

Do we really know under what circumstances he was confronted? Was he initially aware that 20 armed officers were present, or was he told to freeze and, expecting a few unarmed officers, fled and continued after seeing the weapons knowing his situation was already bad? You seem to assume he was initially confronted by 20 officers with guns drawn, making the choice of action obvious. This may not be the case, and is one thing that ought to be looked into.

"Suspect wearing large winter jacket"

This is indeed suspicious, but not illegal. While it's certainly a part of the reason for the action, does this (combined with these other reasons) really justify executing a man on the spit and granting exemption to the executioner from legal review?

"Suspect under observation
Home was also under observation
etc."

Where is that in the source article?

"If anything those officers should have been commended for they quick decision making and risking THEIR lives for the public..."

A quick decision and risking one's life (which is a debatable point here, since we know the man was not armed) does not necessarily make an action right. You can commend someone up and down for being decisive in a stupid decision, but it's still a stupid decision. Was this? I guess we'll see what the investigation shows. Homeless people dress strangely, jump turnstiles, and run from police - do you want to live in a society where people can be terminated if a bit of cirsumstantial evidence can be strung together against them?
 
  by: momentofclarity     07/24/2005 02:26 AM     
  This may change your view  
 
http://www.abc.net.au/...

They were plainclothes police - NOT uniformed officers. It is possible he mistook their identity. Also he is from Brazil so his view of what is warm and what is cold may differ slightly from the average english person hence the coat. I'm not sure you can justify gunning down a person because they might be a terrorist.
 
  by: ixuzus     07/24/2005 02:29 AM     
  The officers should go on trial  
 
for the shooting of an innocent, just like any other situation.

Though I really hope they don't go down for this. I think the police made the right choice here. The public / media will always piss and moan about something.

Police do too little and terrorists kill hundreds.

Police are too vigilant and start killing innocents.


There is no "happy medium". The police simply *will* make mistakes in this situation, as tragic as it is, it shouldn't reduce their powers.
 
  by: daniel2508     07/24/2005 02:39 AM     
  The Innocents DO NOT RUN away!  
 
According to Source: ABC/Reuters: Plainclothes police chased the man onto an underground train on Friday after he ignored warnings to stop and shot him five times in the head.

 
  by: cavador   07/24/2005 03:19 AM     
  @dook  
 
"Anyone who's stupid enough to run from armed police should be shot in the head anyway."
Sorry to break the hero image you cop-luver, but cops are humans. They are citizens who have ambitions to get promotions, who will be involved in crimes, who will make fibs, who will do what they have to do like anyone else, and to accept them shooting people running away from them is just giving up too much.

To give an example dook. If I find a city full of people with ideals like Dook, I will aspire to become a cop instead of being an engineer. I will deal with people and shoot them in the head if they don't hold their end. I will turn back and say these people were running from me even though i asked them to stop. That is only the tip of the ice of course.
 
  by: kmazzawi     07/24/2005 03:19 AM     
  Summary Assumptions  
 
I am of the opinion that the cops in question should be disciplined for making a wrong summary assumption about the man's intentions. A few month suspension, a little demotion, few month on the sh!t shift, plenty of methods to slow down the aggression impulse in cops without deterring them from doing their job.

Any cops on this site that can give us their opinions?
 
  by: kmazzawi     07/24/2005 03:21 AM     
  If you don't break any laws...  
 
There is NO REASON to try to run away!
 
  by: cavador   07/24/2005 03:21 AM     
  What if....  
 
the man didn't speak English and didn't know what the plain clothes officers were saying. Maybe he thought they were trying to rob him. We probably will never know. I'm sure there will be an inquiry and all of this will come out. I don't blame the police under the circumstances, but it is a tragic error.
 
  by: lurker     07/24/2005 03:35 AM     
  The World's Future  
 
A world without compassion whatsoever. Imagine you, your son, or your daughter in a strange land where the temperature is different. Imagine you or them being shot by 20 plainsclothed officers. Imagine most everyone in the land congratulating the officers afterwards. Obviously this guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also for those who say he was guilty of something, I'd like to see you get shot the next time you even go 1 kph over the limit or some other minor traffic infraction because you are obviously guilty of something.
 
  by: LuxFestinus     07/24/2005 03:46 AM     
  @cavador  
 
If a bunch of peple in street clothes told you to stop, would you? The cops in question were plainclothes, meaning they were not wearing uniforms. I sure as hell wouldn't have stopped in that situation, and there's nothing in the article that says the police identified themselves as such.
According to the source, the man had no criminal record and had no reason whatsoever to run from police, if the plainclothes officers had of identified themselves, I'm fairly sure this guy would have stopped at their request. An inquriry has been started, it will be interesting to see the outcome.
 
  by: StarShadow     07/24/2005 03:59 AM     
  Well  
 
I sympathize with the family for this tragic event, however upon reading the story these seem to be the facts:

- He left a suspicious building that was under surveillance by police in connection with the bombings.

- He was wearing a thick winter coat in the summer, which is unusual.

- He was acting suspiciously.

- Despite speaking good English he ignores police when asked to stop.

- He then makes a run for it after being warned.

The last thing the British police can be described as is impulsive. The police in England are highly trained and the ones aloud to carry guns which are a very small percentage are even more highly trained. I can count on two hands the number of police shootings I heard about in 26 years living in England, that involved an innocent person.

For someone who looks like he might be Muslim to run from armed police while the country is in a heightened state of alert is just foolish. While that should not sign his death warrant, on this case it did. He was a casualty of the terrorists, not the police.
 
  by: ZCT     07/24/2005 05:32 AM     
  ZCT  
 
Well said.

As for reading some of these peoples remarks, it seems that the English police cannot win for losing. In other words, no matter what they would have done, someone would have faulted them.

He wasn't shot "just because"; there were plenty of valid reasons for the officers doing what they did.

Traggic? Definitely.
Can you blame the police? Absolutely not.
 
  by: Urmac     07/24/2005 07:37 AM     
  the officers will not  
 
have shouted, freeze, it will have been freeze, armed police.

Anbd when was the last time you were robbed by 20+ grown men in a subway station in the middle of the day in England?
 
  by: Domo1 Mkii   07/24/2005 12:19 PM     
  @ZCT and all  
 
> He left a suspicious building that was under surveillance by police in connection with the bombings.

How was he supposed to know that the building he lived in was "suspicious"? Is my building suspicious?

> He was wearing a thick winter coat in the summer, which is unusual.

"For wearing clothes that are too unusual, we hereby sentence you to death."

> He was acting suspiciously.

He was going to the subway, like millions of Londoners do every day. If he was going to work every day like that, then it would only be suspicious if he suddenly *didn't* do that.

> Despite speaking good English he ignores police when asked to stop.

Other sources mention he did not speak good english. In any event, being shouted at by individuals with guns in a city on an alerted terror status is not very motivating for anyone to stop. The police officers involved should have known better and approached the guy calmly and quietly.

> He then makes a run for it after being warned.

Yes, running away from the suspicious men who were waving runs and running for the subway.

> For someone who looks like he might be Muslim to run from armed police while

So brazilian electricians generally look muslim to you? How do you figure that?

And by the way, so what if he looked muslim? What does it matter which bible he reads at night? According to Tony Blair, nothing.

Unless of course you're saying that all muslims are suspicious by definition and should be shot on sight.

> the country is in a heightened state of alert is just foolish.

How was he supposed to know that these guys were the police?

> He was a casualty of the terrorists, not the police.

We can sit in a circle and hold hands and utter feel-good phrases like that one as long as we want to, but deep down we know it's rubbish.

The police made a colossal error of judgement, not just in assessing the threat of this individual but in their handling of the situation. THAT is what killed him.

If the Scotland Yard has gangs of plain clothes police officers out there with a license to kill anyone they think are suspicious, then I think that is indeed alarming. You do have civil rights, you do have the right to due process.

What I don't understand is why they had to kill him. He fell on the floor in his "unusual" clothes, undoubtedly completely panic stricken - and this police officer shoots him five times in the spine?

What a hero.
 
  by: mberg     07/24/2005 12:26 PM     
  Interesting Comments  
 
Anyone who tries to run from the police after being told to stop is certainly not using good judgement. What other logical choice did the police have except to stop him by whatever means possible. Or would some of you have preferred to just let him proceed on to do whatever he was planning to do? As far as the argument that he didn't speak good english and didn't understand that he was supposed to stop. The source article said he lived legally in England, and had worked as an electrician for three years. As far as I know, the test to become an electrician in England would be given in English. And after living anywhere for three years, he sure as Hell would have known what the word "STOP" meant. The title of the article is also slightly misleading. The man apparently was innocent of being connected to the bombings, but not necessarly innocent of everything else.

Some people just like to see how far they can push on everything. Much as a big ego trip to themselves. It's always possible this guy was only trying to do this....by wearing a heavy bulky coat on a hot day, running from police after being told to stop, and trying to see just how much he could get away with.

To those of you crying about how the poor guy was killed....try to look at the bright side. He will likely be one of the top candidates in 2005 for the Darwin Awards. And he most certainly improved the available gene pool by his stupid actions. Wake up....this is the real world. What the Hell would you have expected the police to have done after these actions by the deceased.
 
  by: Traf   07/24/2005 01:42 PM     
  Suicide Mission  
 
If I were a terrorist leader I might be tempted to get a suicide runner too. All terrorists aren't from the middle east you know. Get a doe-eyed recruit from Brazil, make him look extremely suspicious and have him run from armed police toward a waiting train. Pow, now you've got a bunch of bleeding hearts taking sides against the only people capable of stopping them. Public sentiment is an extremely valuable weapon.

Not necessarily an opinion, just an observation.

If my family had been on that train, I wouldn't have wanted the police to wait to see if he had a bomb, or to calmly approach him as someone suggested earlier. If he was truly innocent, then my heart goes out to the family. But even so, the police were just doing their job. The HAD to assume that he had a bomb. They can't just say please.
 
  by: gnathon   07/24/2005 02:39 PM     
  A tragedy yes, but  
 
the man was obviously very stupid. As has been said the police will have undoubtably shouted something like "Stop! Armed police!". People after your wallet dont generally pose as armed police. For him to do what he did with the current situation in London was stupid and his own fault. What were the police to think? All of his actions pointed to him being a suicide bomber, with the possible exception that he did not blow himself up.

There should be an inquiry and there will be, but these police should NOT face criminal charges. They will have enough to think about without that added burden. Shooting a terrorist is one thing but an innocent man is something else. If anyone says "throw the police in jail" why dont you just stop to think about how the police in question are feeling.

Terrorists need to be sent a message that the police is willing to use lethal force to stop them (and rightly so). The public also needs to be sent a message: DONT RUN AWAY FROM ARMED POLICE WHEN THEY TELL YOU TO STOP!

Also, imagine a slightly different situation: the headline reads "suicide bomber kills 50 people after policeman decides not to shoot him". You would all say "stupid policeman" wouldnt you?
 
  by: Eidron   07/24/2005 07:07 PM     
  not necissarily  
 
He was linked to one of the terrorists. He may have known. He may have been off to set off the 5th bomb they have discovered. Maybe he was leaving the country because he was an unknown terrorist. He is an electrician, obviously not a very good one if he helped make those bombs!
Why was he wearing a puffed up jacket? Why did he not get ddown when the police said?
I doubt he is innocent.
 
  by: alex69     07/24/2005 07:43 PM     
  @mberg  
 
“How was he supposed to know that the building he lived in was "suspicious"? Is my building suspicious?”

- I guess he was just unlucky to be visiting or living in a building that was under surveillance due to suspected terrorist activities.

"For wearing clothes that are too unusual, we hereby sentence you to death."

- He was not sentenced to death for wearing unusual clothes.

”He was going to the subway, like millions of Londoners do every day. If he was going to work every day like that, then it would only be suspicious if he suddenly *didn't* do that.”

- What he did was go to a tube station, wearing a suspicious outfit and acting suspiciously. He then vaulted over the ticket barriers thereby entering the station illegally and without paying. When told to stop by the police he took off running even to the extent of running down an up escalator. Sorry but if he had not broken the law and then run from the police none of this would have happened.

”Other sources mention he did not speak good english.”

- Well the BBC interviewed his cousin who would seem to disagree. But even an non-English speaking Brazilian that lives in London knows you can’t just jump over gates, run past security and get onto a train. How do you think this would be dealt with at JFK if he had tried to board a plane in this manner?

“In any event, being shouted at by individuals with guns in a city on an alerted terror status is not very motivating for anyone to stop. The police officers involved should have known better and approached the guy calmly and quietly.”

- How do you know how the officered identified themselves and acted?

”Yes, running away from the suspicious men who were waving runs and running for the subway.”

- He would not have been running at all if he had not illegally entered the station.

”Unless of course you're saying that all muslims are suspicious by definition and should be shot on sight.”

- Right now Muslims have to be viewed with suspicion. Or we can be all politically correct and allow terrorists to do whatever they want. I know that the vast majority of Muslims in England are nice people with no terror links, but some are as the bombings show. So we have to be careful. Just like in the 1980s if a man with a thick Irish accent asked if it was okay to leave his bags at a hotel, you might want to play it safe. When you are at war it is sometimes necessary to do unpleasant things.

”How was he supposed to know that these guys were the police?”

- I’m guessing they said, “Stop, Police.” But then I was not there either.

”We can sit in a circle and hold hands and utter feel-good phrases like that one as long as we want to, but deep down we know it's rubbish.”

- Maybe to you. But the man was a victim of two things. The terrorists and his own stupidity. Knowing full well that the underground stations are being patrolled by armed police a week after the bombings on a heightened state of alert, you do not go jumping over barriers and illegally running onto a station and a train. It would be like me going to the White House, jumping over the fence and running towards the building. It’s stupid, illegal, and clearly something bad might happen.

”The police made a colossal error of judgment, not just in assessing the threat of this individual but in their handling of the situation. THAT is what killed him.”

- I would rather this criminal be shot dead, than make the opposite colossal error in judgment. The man COULD have had a bomb strapped to him and could have detonated it. This would have killed dozens of people. When someone acts as suspiciously as that at the scene of a recent terror attack, has already broken the law and refuses to comply with police sometimes the use of deadly force is necessary.

”If the Scotland Yard has gangs of plain clothes police officers out there with a license to kill anyone they think are suspicious, then I think that is indeed alarming. You do have civil rights, you do have the right to due process.”

- I go back to my example of jumping over the fence and running towards the White House. If you break the law and refuse to comply bad things can happen. This man knew very well he was breaking the law, perhaps he should not have done that, given the heightened tensions he was well aware of.

”What I don't understand is why they had to kill him. He fell on the floor in his "unusual" clothes, undoubtedly completely panic stricken - and this police officer shoots him five times in the spine?”

- They thought he had a bomb on him. They felt that if they didn’t neutralize him dozens of people could die. They made a mistake. But none of this would have happened if he did not break the law.
 
  by: ZCT     07/24/2005 08:05 PM     
  I agree with gnathon  
 
its a damn good idea to get a guy who's suspected of being a suicide bomber shot.

So idiots like ZTC will preach about how eviol the white people are...
 
  by: Domo1 Mkii   07/24/2005 08:09 PM     
  @Dumo  
 
"So idiots like ZTC will preach about how eviol the white people are..."

- Huh? Where did I preach about 'eviol' white people?
 
  by: ZCT     07/24/2005 08:23 PM     
  sorry  
 
evil police
and were gettin rude again arent we, my dog's unlikely to die again so you might not get off next time.
 
  by: Domo1 Mkii   07/24/2005 08:25 PM     
  @Dumo  
 
"evil police"

- Actually if you read my posts you will see that I fully supported the police in this incident.

So maybe it is you who is being rude for making erroneous assumptions and accusations about what you think I think.

"and were gettin rude again arent we, my dog's unlikely to die again so you might not get off next time."

- Learn some English, and then we'll all know what you are trying to say. Until then I'll just have to ignore your tedious ramblings.
 
  by: ZCT     07/24/2005 08:34 PM     
  Time will tell  
 
just wait until all is told.
 
  by: Crystal Clukey   07/24/2005 08:58 PM     
  It still seems people can't read..  
 
Twenty guys...NOT IN UNIFORM....start shouting at you..NOT IN YOUR NATIVE TONGUE. Waving fire arms. You..used to hot, humid 35 C plus weather, are in a MUCH colder climate, so you were a COAT (shocking) coming out of a suspicious building (again, shocking), therefore, once you are CAUGHT!! you should be shot in the head..FIVE TIMES! Did that makes sense? Because, that is what appeared to have heppened.

Something run amok..and it was not the muslim looking spanish guy from Brasil.
 
  by: jeffster   07/24/2005 09:43 PM     
  silly people  
 
If your in this country living as an electrician learn fu*in english, that way when police shout at you you know what to do and stupid people such jeffster don't make silly comments.

If everyone around you ducks you dont just stand there no matter what language you speak dumbass!

Climate!? This guys has been here for quite a while, don't give us "oh its colder than where he's from" bullsh*t.

Armed police would not follow a guy who has links to terrorists and is an electrician by armed police if they did not believe he was a threat!

NEVER BELIEVE "THE TRUTH"

The public are never told what really happens who who these people really are.
 
  by: alex69     07/24/2005 10:41 PM     
  @Jeff  
 
I pity the electrician, if he is innocent, but there is no good arguement against the police here, apart from damned public bleeding hearts that like to make a fuss.


The cops can't afford to take any chances.



Cop: Sir! A guy in a thick coat that we've been surveiling has just come out of that building that we've also been watching and he has just jumped the gates illegally and is running towards a train!

Sergeant: Ok shoo- oh wait, we'd better not. He might not be a terrorist. He might just be a Brazillian electrician who can't speak English after being here for three years, and who hasn't grasped the security tightening around the city he's been living in for a long time. We'd better just take the risk and let him run onto that train.


Damnit people! Think for chrissakes.
 
  by: Daniel2508     07/24/2005 10:52 PM     
  hear hear  
 
If only they had a brain cell between them...
 
  by: alex69     07/24/2005 10:55 PM     
  Well...  
 
I feel its unfortunate that an innocent man was shot, but at the same time, what on earth was he thinking? I guess we'll never know.

He knew the police were on tenterhooks after the second load of bombings in a fortnight, so he choose to run through a station of cops, jump a ticket barrier, ignore calls of people screaming "freeze, armed police" continued to run.

People have said "what if this was your brother Ant? What if it was your brother they had shot five times in the head / back" and each time i've said

"Well... I am sad my brother is dead, but at the same time, i blame him for his own death and am angry at him for being so stupid" I find the police at NO fault here, they did their jobs and cannot be blamed if someone after these events decided to basically sign his own death warrant.

In my mind these guys are heroes if they open up a donations fund to help any legal defence i'll be the first one in line to help them out.

Sorry you're dead Mr Brazilian but if you had only used some intelligence you might not be occupying a hole in the wall of a morgue.
 
  by: koultunami     07/24/2005 11:11 PM     
  @jeffster  
 
You are missing a rather vital point in your overly liberal tirade. The man in question was not innocently walking along the street minding his own business. He was acting suspiciously in a high security area, knowing full well that there had been terrorist attacks just a week earlier. He then proceeds to jump over security gates and when challenged he makes a run for it, running the wrong way down an escalator and on to a train.

What he was doing was illegal, unbelievable stupid, and highly suspicious.

I again give the example of what if this had happened with a man trying to board a plane in this manner at say JFK?

My wife was in London last weekend and was amazed at how many armed police were patrolling the underground and airports. Even if you are some hapless ignorant Brazilian that doesn't know English, common sense tells you that you don't jump over security gates and start running when the country is on a terror alert and there are a bunch of armed police everywhere.

This man may not have been a terrorist, but he played an unfathomably idiotic game of chicken with the police and lost. But for the terrorist attacks this never would have happened, so I place the blame squarely on the heads of the evil bastards that blow up innocent civilians and make unfortunate events like this all the more likely.
 
  by: ZCT     07/25/2005 12:26 AM     
  @ZTC whoops  
 
Sorry, i read that wrongly, it seems you were right.
 
  by: Domo1 Mkii   07/25/2005 12:29 AM     
  @Domo1 Mkii  
 
Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and admit your mistake.

One thing you will learn about me is that I am not one thing politically like say a liberal. I think of each issue as it comes up and form an opinion, I am therefore annoyed when people try and pigeonhole me and assume they know what I am thinking.
 
  by: ZCT     07/25/2005 12:34 AM     
  Running from Police  
 
I;ve heard a lot of people saying "if you don't want to get shot then don't run from armed police" but I think this really requires more thought into why the man may have acted as he did. Firstly, the police were apparantly NOT in uniform. You have to realise that this man was not faced with uniformed bobbies, just normally dressed citizen looking police. That's enough to startle me, but also these men were not holding the MP5 machine guns that you see on armed police in the airport etc. but simple Heckler and Koch hand guns. For all the 'running man' new these could hav been any nut jobs just out to kill people (and we know they exist especially after this past few weeks.) I know it is very simple to say "don't run if you're innocent" but until you're in that situation then there is no way tou can tell how you'd act, I'm sure you wouldn't just lay down and surrender, at least without a little bit of startled movement (which could the be seen as an attempt to trigger the bomb hidden under your 'big jacket').

Now call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm not usually intrigued in this sort of scandal but this one, to me has 'untoward' written all-over it. A man with no motive, no actual known criminal activity and no bomb, pinned to the ground (according to two eye witnesses to report early) and shot 5 times in the back of the head sounds all a little too weird for me
 
  by: JimmyRiddle   07/25/2005 01:05 AM     
  If you are in any country  
 
And you see 20 men pointing guns at you screaming, do you think you can run and not get shot? Whether they have good or bad intentions, your going to die if you run.

Also England is not known for having groups of criminals walking around in daylight pointing guns at people for their wallets.
The choice to shoot is not a rash one, and the police would have identified themselves, they always do. The English are more anal about it that the americans are, when it comes to making the police let everyone know they are police. Especially while armed (which may seem wierd for the rest of the world), most English officers do not carry firearms of any variety.
 
  by: ssxxxssssss   07/25/2005 02:07 AM     
  not running...  
 
first off, i see reall only 3 options when confronted by anyone (or group) in a threatening manner; 20 people with guns is a very threatening situation.

1. do nothing and allow the threat to take its course.

2. get away (run)

3. fight

heres a question if someone points a gun at you do you have the right to avoid your own death?... absolutely 100%.

if he had a gun and had been fired upon and shot back and it just so happened it was a cop that got shot (from having gunfire back unto him) it would've been self-defence.

the police should be 100% accountable for who they shoot and thusly for the innocent people they shoot.

you can't pin this mans death on terrorists... he was not killed by terrorists he was killed by cops...

and disagree if you will but the later is worse, because its the police job to protect the innocent not kill them.

back to what i was saying for a threatening situation you could eliminate do nothing for me... as i will either keep away from the threat or attack it... and since i'm not prone to carryign a gun, i'd probably avoid them.
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 02:34 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
What I was startled at was the report that they shot the guy AFTER capture...and it seems obvious that is what happened since he was shot in the head 5 times. I am very conservative by nature..usually, but terrorist or not, if this is what really did happen, it was uncalled for.
 
  by: jeffster   07/25/2005 03:09 AM     
  also...  
 
this isn't the kind of think i expected to here comming out of England...

more anti-depressants needed in the
water perhaps?...lol
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 03:09 AM     
  can't think of a title  
 

"heres a question if someone points a gun at you do you have the right to avoid your own death?... absolutely 100%"

By right you also have to right to proclaim your innocence. Don't by any measure waste this right...please
 
  by: JimmyRiddle   07/25/2005 05:00 AM     
  @jimmyriddle  
 
"By right you also have to right to proclaim your innocence. Don't by any measure waste this right...please"

to 20 armed unknowns, whyy don't you just ask to get ass kicked... seriously what is so hard to comprehend about 20 people with guns chasing you... if you don't run your a frigging moron... seriously, if you are threatened in a means such as 20 armed people, i'd say you have the right to run or fight.. 20 people in a group pretty much constitutes a gang by definition, esspecially given they were unknowns, not uniformed police. given they also had guns and severely outnumbered him fight wasn't really an option even if he wanted to... that leaves running.

i think what this really is, is another reason why people feel they need to arm themselves.

if one of those cops got killed if he had a gun and shot at them to defend against being chased/shot at would that make him guilty... i'd say not being how it would've been self-defense.

also being shot 5 times in the head is really an assassination/execution... not really a tragedy... the tragedy was the mistake not the action. the action is what they should be responsible for...

i love how people dismiss this crap as they are just doing their job... i've been fired from a few job for making simple mistakes that didn't even hurt anyone or anything except possibly myself for a breif while.

these cops made a mistake that killed an innocent person. cops have to yeild to the same law as the rest of us. no-one is above the law... thats a primary tenent of western law... yet most people play shadow games (double standards) with it. also innocent until proven guilty but already waived that point.
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 05:25 AM     
  Maybe He was an illegal  
 
The illegals here run any time some is too close to them walking down the street,even though they may have commited any crimes, other than be here illegaly. Maybe he was one, or just a loney that wore coats in hot weather. In miami there was a man that walked around in a trench coat all year. He was the local loney and he was from a very rich family from Maine. A cop shot him, thinking he was holding a gun to someone, it turned out to be a walkman and the Cops had a throw down gun, and threw it down to say it was a clean shooting. Atleast the police in london didnt do anything stupid like that. My cop buddie said it would have been a clean shooting anyway and they didnt need to use a throw down gun, because he didnt obey the order to drop it, and it was 1 in the am and they had to make a judgement call based on what they saw. Thoses cops are doing 10 years plus for that. Well sticking to the point, he ran for a reason, only time will tell us why.
 
  by: thedrewman   07/25/2005 06:01 AM     
  @ jeffster  
 
Anyone who has lived in london as an electrician for 3 years will know what the words "Stop" "Armed" and "Police" mean. He was stupid to do what he did. The Police had to make a decision for the safety of the people around them.
 
  by: Eidron   07/25/2005 04:01 PM     
  At the moment  
 
I feel sorry for the Police officers, no doubt filling out a mountain of paper work and having the threat of court cases on their heads.

oh... and kinda sorry for this dead guys family, sorry that their relative was a bit simple and felt the need to run from armed police.
 
  by: koultunami     07/25/2005 04:21 PM     
  Those officers  
 
will probably never be able to do their job again suffering this trauma
 
  by: alex69     07/25/2005 07:05 PM     
  @koultunami  
 
"At the moment
I feel sorry for the Police officers, no doubt filling out a mountain of paper work and having the threat of court cases on their heads.

oh... and kinda sorry for this dead guys family, sorry that their relative was a bit simple and felt the need to run from armed police."

you should be a cop you'd fit right in...

your sorry for the shooters but only kinda sorry for the victim... no logic do i see there.
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 07:21 PM     
  @alex69  
 
"Those officers
will probably never be able to do their job again suffering this trauma"

i feel safer already...lol

these cops get no pity from me, they made a bad judgement call and shot an innocent person... people can call it the victim stupidity but the victim hurt no-one, the same cannot be said about the cops.

let the trial commense.
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 07:24 PM     
  man  
 
Its people like you that these guys try to protect, and all can you do is throw it back in their face. I suppose you want them severly punished. What good does that do? It just puts people off from joining the police. How can that be a good thing? How can that bring anyone any comfort?

This guy was acting suspiciously. F**k me these poor guys lose either way. Let a suspected terrorist go or shoot him. How can you judge these guys so much. Any of you. You've never done this, you have no idea what the police went through.
I mean what are you saying? Don't hurt a terrorist until they kill some people? "people can call it the victim stupidity but the victim hurt no-one, the same cannot be said about the cops."
It is sadly people like you that terrorist hope are around. Are you god? Do you know this mans past? How do you know he hasnt hurt anyone? Police don't just go around shooting people.

I would gladly be shot by police than a terrorist get away.

I spose not everyone in the world can be good hearted. That's just so wrong what you have said. I'm athiest but sometimes i do hope we will all be judged by "god" so that people like you get what you deserve.

How can anyone think like this?
 
  by: alex69     07/25/2005 07:40 PM     
  @alex69  
 
"Its people like you that these guys try to protect, and all can you do is throw it back in their face. I suppose you want them severly punished. What good does that do? It just puts people off from joining the police. How can that be a good thing? How can that bring anyone any comfort?"

cops don't protect me, we can drop that crap... everytime i've went to the cops they were useless, f*ck em they deserve the critism they get, just like everyone else, they are not exempt.

"This guy was acting suspiciously. F**k me these poor guys lose either way. Let a suspected terrorist go or shoot him. How can you judge these guys so much. Any of you. You've never done this, you have no idea what the police went through."

your right i never have shot an innocent person.

everyone acts suspiciously to someone... i can apply this to any group of people.. its really simple actually. this doesn't warrant their death let alone an execution.

"I mean what are you saying? Don't hurt a terrorist until they kill some people?

It is sadly people like you that terrorist hope are around. Are you god? Do you know this mans past? How do you know he hasnt hurt anyone? Police don't just go around shooting people."

well be definition they aren't a terrorist until they do.

if terrorist hope for people like me to be around they most support the innocent until proven guilty statement, no man above the law and right to safety that so many people forget exists.

hell michael jackson is innocent and he has a 15-20 year track record.

and as far as "god" goes... i don't hold to superstition

"I would gladly be shot by police than a terrorist get away."

no will to live... lots of those people around lately...

remember a terrorist didn't get away your statement assumes he is a terrorist when he wasn't.

"I spose not everyone in the world can be good hearted. That's just so wrong what you have said. I'm athiest but sometimes i do hope we will all be judged by "god" so that people like you get what you deserve.

How can anyone think like this?"

its quite easy i have my own moral and shooting innocent people definately goes against this. i am rather good hearted i just have no sympathy for the bullshit the world inflicts upon itself(world meaning society).

these cops shot and killed a innocent person they deserve to:

a) be fired
and b) be charged criminally

the very least they should be charged for is manslaughter though an execution style murder as this was should be trialed as 1st degree murder.

people with your statement suggest cops are above the law... they are not... nor is the queen, nor the PM, not he president of the US...

that is the law... to the letter.

Magne Carta anyone?
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 08:08 PM     
  Magna Carta n/t  
 
n/t
 
  by: HAVOC666     07/25/2005 08:08 PM     
  wow  
 
Your head is messed up man! Maybe the police are crap in your country but England they're pretty damn good so f**k you buddy!

No will to live?! No im just willing to die so others can live...willing to die to protect the people i love and what i believe in. Maybe your "too macho" for that.

Do you think it makes you clever having these thoughts?

Execution?! You have no idea do you!?
You are saying you would rather be responsible for up 50 peoples deaths for letting a suspected terrorist go or be critised by the few for doing the right thing?

Magna carter? What would you know? This has nothing to do with that. Stop trying to be clever and just think for a minute! Actually give it 5!

I just seriously can't understand why people like you would feel this way. I mean they did this to PROTECT us!

Its like getting rid of an army because what they do is wrong in your eyes and then wondering why you have been invaded. And then once millions have been killed you realise what you have done.

They made a bad call, we all do. You can't punish them for only being human. As far as i know pretty much the entire of Britian is behind the police right now.
 
  by: alex69     07/25/2005 08:25 PM     
  he deserved to be shot....  
 
what a retard, he runs from the cops when there's a terrorist alert in affect.
i fully support the actions taken by the police in this matter because they were just doing their job.

in a humurous peice of related news, the toronto star took a poll and said the cops should be charged with murder. my guess is they polled mainly hippie liberals and minorities.
 
  by: Homercles   07/27/2005 09:06 PM     
  OMG  
 
I don't understand how it can be murder. Why is it people are so quick to judge when they will probably never understand the decision that the police had to make.

The reason many people outside the UK are saying have them charged is becuase they don't care and this kind of thing has never happened in this situation. It's only really France and the U.S. that knows that what the police did was the right thing...along with the UK obv.
 
  by: alex69     07/27/2005 09:50 PM     
 
 
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