Religious Belief is a Danger to Society, Says Study
High murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide can be contributed to religious belief says a study published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal. Belief in, and worship of, God are unnecessary and harmful.
“Americans [think the USA] is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an example for an increasingly skeptical world." Higher rates of belief in a creator correlate with homicide, earlier mortality, STD and abortion.
This is true in the prosperous democracies, the study says. Gregory Paul, the author and a social scientist, used data of Gallup and other bodies to reach his conclusions. England is performing better than than the US, though less religious.
The study measures many things...so one has to wonder how many Z variables (those being factors not associated with that purported to be the cause) could be involved. I'd need to read the original study to say just how much I'd believe this study, but it certainly offers some interesting findings. When you're comparing entire nations, there are a lot of variables to consider. What else is commonplace in American lifestyles which could contribute to these negatives? Were they anticipated and controlled for?
I am intrigued, and I'll need to track down the meat of this report.
Most religions are very old and no longer in touch with the material and sociological reality we live in today. Forcing a people to live and obide by the dogmas of an ancient religion is guaranteed to feed frustration and extremism.
I would go so far as to say that most of the aggression and suppresion we see in the world today has some sort of religious affinity.
The vulcan choice would be to ban all forms of religion because religion by defies analysis and logic.
And indeed while religion may have theraputic benefits for the individual when practiced on a personal and introspective level, but large scale religious indoctrination will have a stagnating and increasingly regressive effect on a society. This is not desirable.
None the less, the source story goes so far as to indicate that you either stand in the evolutionary camp or the religious camp. I have to disagree with that.
It is an undeniable fact that humans have worshipped godlike entities since the dawn of time. It is not only our physical appearance that is a consequence of evolution, but also our behavioural patterns. The fact that we have religion today is evidence that religion has somehow been a necessary prerequisite to our current evolutionary state. We are here today and we are religious, therefore religion must be beneficial. If you disbelieve that, you also have to write off the theory of evolution.
Just how religion has benefitted our evolution is anyone's guess. Personally I believe that religion helps create stability within a community, which in turn allows the community to unite and work towards common goals and against common enemies.
But it only works as long as there are common goals and common enemies. Today we have no natural enemies and we have a social structure that encourages individual success rather than group success. Actually, at the expense of group success is probably a better way of describing it.
So will religion survive? Hard to say. One might argue there would be less conflict in a purely atheistic society but is that really true? I'm not convinced. I don't think we have evolved quite that far yet.
Fear, Greed and Power are still the predominant forces that motivate each and every one of us. It has been since we climbed down from the trees, and even before that time.
Almost all of our important life decisions can be linked to fear, greed or power, and religion provides a moral counterpoint to that. Which in turn enables us to act selflessly or even self sacrificing from time to time. So one could just as easily argue that without religion, we would have a society with no compassion, driven entirely by genetic urges from a time when we roamed the plains, scavenging for food and avoiding predators. This can't be helpful from an evolutionary perspective, so if you believe in Darwin, then you must also agree that we probably have to maintain a certain level of religious belief.
At least until we evolve to a point where self reproduction is no longer the only meaning of life. That is surely the next stage on our evolutionary ladder. If we can survive until then.
Like I said in my last post about religion, just turn and mold the bible/koran or any other religious articles into manuals of how to live a civilized life. Strip all the believe in this crap and you'll be left with a good manual on how to live life like a civilized person.
Since when does Europe lack religious faiths and followers? I'm personally acquainted with all manner of faiths, in spain, norway, germany...
We talk about rigorous scientific method and process.. this is not it.
I agree with MOC, these conclusions could equally apply to alcohol consumtion, regulation of drug use, economic performance, population levels etc etc.
Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly.
I have to strongly disagree with the idea that religion and the evolution of our species are linked. The evolution of man as a species is a purely physical change in the form. Religion is a construct of our self-aware and communicative people for social welfare. Humans would have evolved just the same without the act of worship or the idea of God. I will grant that common religion has made it easier to band together to ease the perpetuation of the species, but no natural selection (toward the evolutionary benefit of the species) has ever happened due to some religious doctrine.
Also, we do have a natural enemy and it is ourselves. We have always very naturally encroached on each other's domain and used up each other's resources (sometimes killing each other for them). We don't have to eat each other to be defined as enemies.
A large part of the problem in the US has been the Catch-22 that protecting the rights of some individual almost always violates the rights of another, especially with religion. See all the debate on the Ten Commandments and the Pledge. The fact that there are so many different religions dispersed in pockets through the nation leads to conflicts of interest often per neighbor. This is a problem.
I would like to hear some arguments backing up the following statement you made: "large scale religious indoctrination will have a stagnating and increasingly regressive effect on a society." It sounds like this contradicts your statements that religion was an enabling force behind evolution. Also, there are many examples to the contrary. Many Native American societies (among others), through total common religious identity thrived for long periods of time.
I think that the article is immediately vague when it says "Religious belief can cause damage to a society." I would say people arriving at a religious lifestyle through TRUE faith would not exhibit such damaging behavior. However, a definite problem occurs when people attempt to appear faithful by being religious. It is this forced behavior that can lead to repressed tendencies erupting in the violent and destructive acts mentioned.
In summary, religion can be a large problem when acted on unfaithfully and in conflict with non-similar groups. Faith (non-extremist) is not a problem and often a benefit especially when used as a cultural identity over a contiguous group of people.
Religion, especially Catholicism, is just a way to
control large groups of people. It is a way to get them to band together, a way to make them act as one (like sheep baaasically), a way to get them to follow rules by giving them a spiritual reason to behave....
Basically every religion is a cult with brainwashed members who believe whatever the pastor says.
Getting rid of religion would mean more people having to stand up and face responsibility for their actions during their lifetime. It would also mean alot more selfishness. (if i only have to answer to myself and not god do i need to be the good samaritan since god will not reward me and i will not be rewarded for this act of kindness i no longer have to answer for my behaviour in the eyes of god... etc etc)
Why do you think banknotes say in god we trust?
In god we trust people will believe so that we have more law and order... but in real life its actually the pastors that are the biggest conmen of all...
pay me money every week and i will talk to you about an alien being that does not exist... and i promise i can get you in good when you die.... if i can get that new mercedes this year..
and i promise i can get you in good when you die..
its not like you are gonna come back from the dead and yell LIAR!! I will tell you anything you want to hear as long as you put money in my donation box
There's a difference between faith and religion, in the context that you are using it. In fact, your rant is a mix of ignorance and arrogance.
A litigious society has more to do with giving up personal responsibility than anything religious could do. In fact, Buddists particularly are extremely dedicated to taking personal responsibility for every thought and deed. The same can be send for myself, and many other Christians. As I said though, faith and religion are two different things. Blindly following the Bible or even teachings of the Bible doesn't make you a Christian - anymore than wearing golf clothes makes you a golfer.
When it comes to pastors and churches, its obvious that your experience and understanding is lacking. The church PAYS the pastor a wage, just like any professional employer - donations go to the church funds, which are used for the benefit of the church, as guided by an elected committee of parishioners, and voted on at monthly meetings. There are denominations who forward all donations to a head organisation which manages and distributes the funds - but unless you are a televanglist, running your own 'church' no pastor gets anything more than the church agrees to pay him. Some churches provide accomodation for the pastor and his family, some don't.
Many pastors earn barely enough to survive on, they do the job they do because they believe God called them to it, and are willing to suffer that hardship for Him.
These are the same churches and pastors that are the first to reach out in the community when things go awry, and to provide for their parishioners when they are in need.
Whats the main reason for belief? Fear? the 'communal' (being just like everyone else) feeling? or actual belief in those stories about talking snakes and multi-armed elephants? Whatever it is i find the power of denial absolutely fascinating, you really can make people believe anything, especially if they don't know any better, or really want to believe. Any religious people here tell me why you picked the faith you confess to. Did you study other religions and then choose the one that sounded the best to you? All of them are pretty scant on hard evidence, so why one and not the other?
I was raised in a religion free environment, and weaned on sciences of all kinds. In 5th grade, for example, i was reading books on microprocessors. I graduated Dux of my school (complete with name plaque on the honor board) - with top marks in Physics and Chemistry, as well as Math C (advanced mathematics).
I'm telling you this for background.
I spent a long time associating with various friends - satanists, celtic reconstructionists, wiccans and thelemites, but I never really believed in anything myself. I was strictly a believer in scientific explenations.
I came to christianity, as it happens, through helping out a new friend, who I made a deal to pray each night, and in return they wouldn't give up on something important. I didn't really expect anything to happen, I just went through the motions so I could know I hadn't welched on my end.
While I was praying, in the second week, it was a Wednesday night, God revealed himself to me. Not as a vision, or a voice, but an incontrivertible knowledge of his existence, and the feeling of his awesome presence.
That was it, because then I had to reassess everything I had relied on. I don't consider myself a member of any particularly denomination, but a member of the Christian church as a whole.
I've read the Bible, though its hard to recall every verse or line - I'm not a Bible scholar. I believe, and have faith in God, even if I don't understand his plan, or why certain things happen.
Na its not, So you also studied the teachings of mohammed, budha, abraham, the jedi etc...? You know you're exceptional case right? Most people just believe in the god their parents and grandparents did. I'm just looking for a link giving a scientific explanation to 'epiphenies' when i find i'll post.
the holy roman empire, the pope, the vatican.. do you know how much power these people have? Its incredible and if you took away the religion you have a powerful group of strangely dressed men who have a say in world affairs while talking to figments of their imagination... how scary is that? :P
imagine theres no heaven... its easy if you try no hell below us.... above us only sky
"the church pays the pastor a wage" so the church is moonlighting? how can "a church" pay his wage its obvious the money comes from the donations to the church.
"Many pastors earn barely enough to survive on, they do the job they do because they believe God called them to it, and are willing to suffer that hardship for Him."
Aliens told me to preach their word on street corners! You want people who hear voices in their heads at the head of your society?
I dont believe in god, God, Jesus, Ra, Buddah or Mohammed. I dont go out and slit people's throats because I think its fun. I never said that the world would turn to chaos without religion, in fact I dont think it would, I was merely pointing out that "They" think mankind would revert into some chaotic self-serving mob. I actually believe more in karma, be good and it comes back to you. I dont have the need to believe there will be a reward in the 'afterlife' to be a good person. I dont have the need to believe 11 virgins will be waiting for me either ;P
Jesus, who i believe was a real person but not the messiah (just a forgotten historical figure like Tutankhamun or Alexander the Great) was not born nor did he come from Nazereth. He was a Nazarene though, Nazarene being a sect that believed all life was evil and this is our punishment so we must be good to make up for it. Nazareth was built in 60AD.
If you need to believe in something Lauriesman believe in yourself and your power to affect others. You dont need to worship false idols... ANY false idols.
A wise man once wrote: Understand why you cast all other religions aside and you will understand why I cast yours aside.
"how can "a church" pay his wage its obvious the money comes from the donations to the church. " First of all, the Catholic Church is one of the richest institutions on the planet, not only owning huge amount of several large companies such as General Electric, General Motors, Gulf Oil, Shell, BMW, and many many more, but also getting paid directly from the taxes of millions (In Germany, for example, you pay a religious tax to the church of your choosing along with your normal income tax - Since mmany if not most people are Catholic by "default", they continue paying this throughout their lives regardless of acceptance of the Church)
"The Vatican Billions - Avro Manhattan" is a nice book to start, and you can even find a copy online at some flimsy website, http://www.cephasministry.com/ , - an example excerpt lifted from, http://www.chick.com/ (where they have a nice overview of some of the wealth), "The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars."
Are you American? Buddha was "just zis guy" who told people that happiness comes from being nice to others and being kind and helpful. Buddhism doesn't necessarily have any of that "Spooky Crap" (Invisible Monsters / Flaming Bad Dudes With Pitchforks / Magical Faeries / The belief that the entire universe was created just so Joe Schmo can be a UPS delivery dude while his wife works at McDonalds, his beating her is fine as long as he apologizes, not to her of course, and an entire individual new Universe will instantly pop outta nowhere when he dies so he'll live in paradise forever... Cause he deserves it more than one of the main characters of their story, this Moses guy, who didn'T make it to heaven just because he claimed to have found water in the ground whereas "God put it there and led him there" / Ghosts / Zombie-Jeasuses <"A Supernatural spell that can reanimate a corpse or one revived in this way" - No one can argue the usage of Zombie here> / The idea that one dude makes everything happen - And then the crazyness that if he supposedly makes a hurricane, then they pray to him to stop... Directly challanging His will. That's gotta be worse than claiming to have found water / Reincarnation / Afterlifes ) and many Buddhists simply do not believe in such things... To say you don't believe in Buddha is silly, he's not a mythical creature like Norse, Greek, or Christian Gods - He was a normal human being that lived and just told people to be nice - No supernaturalism, just proper behavior and pyschology - Which is, in my opinion, exactly what "Jesus" did, if he existed, and that he would completely detest the fiction work of the "Bible", written after his death and (ab)used ever since by those that could wield the power of convincing others, judging others, damning others, slaughtering others and controlling others in the name of, something that most likely was just written about someone who wanted people to stop being idiots and be kind instead of raping each other over money and power...
Of course it's a bad thing when people stop thinking for themselves and blindly have faith in things or take the word of other people just because of the clothes they wear instead of treating humans equally; it can only lead to apathy, confusion, frustration, pointless and groundless denounciation and hatred of the other possibilities... and the lists go on...
Anyways,
"• The Vatican Bank, Istituto per le Opere di Religione, manages £2bn of assets. It does not reveal its profits or dividends, which are paid directly to the Pope. It enjoys the status of a central bank and has a dealing room adorned with crucifixes and papal portraits where 20 traders work.
...
• The 2,500 officials of the Papal curia have a combined salary bill of 140bn lira (£44m).
• The 20,000 parishes in America had revenues of $7.5bn (£5.18bn) )in 2000, of which $6.5bn went to cover expenses and $1bn subsidised Catholic schools." http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/ Despite the terrible look of that page, the site seems to be a respectible discussion of a lawsuit against the Vatican for some "missing" Nazi treasures in the value of "several hundred million dollars to sums as high as two billion dollars" so one can assume the data on the law firm's site is solid ;)
You're free to not believe in anything, and you're free to insult or degrade my faiths, if that makes you happy. It doesn't bother me, as my faith isn't dependant on your acceptance of it.
What do you exactly think a church is? A building? Maybe in the architechtural sense. In the spiritual and economic sense, a church is a group of believers who gather together for the purposes of fellowship and growth. Each of these believers tithes to their church to enable their church to grow, and also to provide for those in need.
Of course their are exceptions - affiliated churches often are managed by a larger parent organisation that grants money to churches for projects. The catholic church is different again.
I don't NEED to believe in anything beyond what my own hands and eyes bring before me. I DO believe in something more though, not out fear, or a desire to gain something for myself, but simply because it is something I believe in.
Let me put it another way - It is my choice to honor and love my God.
I suggest that rather than jump to the conclusion that 'the feeling of his awesome presence' may well have more to do with meditative techniques than seeing god? I believe that you experienced a transcendental moment as I have through meditation which can be scientifically explained. While you are obviously free to believe what you want, you may want to examine rational explainations before going full-on Baptist on us ;)
I belive that religion should be a belief system for the individual, not the group. I don't think you should have to go to a church in order to worship. If you have the faith, then you're a good practicioner of your faith. Simple as that. Churches take away from the spiritualism, I think. People are no longer really 'believing' in their faith, but instead, dragging themselves to a building every week in order to worship 'properly'.
Simply said, I can certainly see where the article was coming from, where it's going, and I can certainly see the point it's trying to convey.
Unfortunately, if something doesn't change soon, we may be alive to see the Holy States of American God, soon. From what I can see, this spark in religious flabbidybloo happened after 9/11.
I'm tired of religion. I choose to praise my faith individually, and I don't care if I'm a 'heretic who'll burn in hell!', alright? I'm on earth to live my life, and believe what I'm going to believe.
Some people might want to tell me different. Some people might be so zealous, that they want to kill me for not believing like them. It's those people, that I fear.
Wouldn't it be better to live a life of love for others more than yourself even if you are fallible and say your prayers, attend church on a regular basis and have a little faith that god is real then to be wrong and die only to find out you were a total fool that now has no options but an eternity of torment? It sure seems like a really tiny price to pay to insure an eternity when all it cost is a little faith.
Pascal's Wager is based on the assumption that your particular religion is right. Do you see the implications of this?
There are litterally hundreds if not thousands of religions in the world, how do you know yours is correct?
Also Pascals Wager is an argument which is based on fear ie saying you should believe in god otherwise you will go to hell when you die. If there is a god I don't think that he or she would appreciate you believing in him/her just because. On a scale of morality doing something 'good' due to fear is on the lowest scale.
Aside from this, isn't god a merciful god? So therefore as long as you lead the good life you gain entrance anyway.
First I gotta say that I didn't have the time to read all the articles so if I repeat sorry in advance.
This "study" is pretty far out there. It doesn't take into account what would happen if people didn't believe in a Supreme Being. Imagine what people would do if they didn't feel the need to answer to a higher power. Basically it keeps a lot of those who are wouldbe evildoers in check.
Just another study where someone went in with a preset conclusion and searched until they found something to support it.
But for the sake of argument let's take out religion. So say good bye to all the medical centres, hospitals, hostels,homeless shelters, domestic violence shelters, drug and alcohol rehab programs, migrant support programs, schools, op shops, soup kitchens, child sponsorship programs, counselling services, third world development projects, etc that were started by/are run by religious groups. Now where are we?
In the west there is a hell big hole in the welfare budget and system. I can't see the highly capitalistic society picking up the bill. There's not a great deal of profit to be made from welfare is there? If you're poor things are probably looking pretty awful. Groups of good hearted individuals will help as best they can but will probably for the most part lack the large scale organisation to be effective.
Now for the developing world. For many people the only chance they or their children had to go to school was the school constructed by a group of religious tradesmen who flew in for a couple of weeks and built it on their own time. The teacher is a local whose training was paid for by a sponsorship program. That's all gone. Same with the free health and dental clinics. Oh, it also looks like that development agency that was going to put in a well so your community could have fresh drinking water is now defunct to. Need I go on?
Now I'm aware that there are a lot of non religious affiliated groups doing a lot of wonderful work and I take my hat off to them but religious organisations do a lot of stuff that you mightn't think about every day. I think you would also find that a lot of the volunteers would say their faith is a large part of the reason they volunteer. Also worth noting is that a lot if international government aid comes with large and numerous strings that may well cripple your country.
Unchecked capitalism, large corporations and the governments they own are a far greater threat to society than religion ever will be.
Anyone with some Google sense can see a ton of research on this subject, and you will find that most research done by doctors and scientists show completely opposite results from the study in question.
It has even been proven that a large number of 'religious' people live longer than atheists, allbeit there are always exceptions to the rule.
First of all thanks for following up on my post. I find this subject very interesting and it's always good to have an opportunity to discuss different standpoints.
As for my statement regarding the fact that religious indoctrination can have a stagnating effect on a society, I base that on the fact that religions are often very old and bound on traditions. If people are not allowed to follow other faiths or have no faith at all, this surely can't be catalytic to technological and sociological advancement.
I realize this is contrary to other parts of my post, but this is intentional. My post is really a question, as you will find when you reach the final few paragraphs.
I'd like to follow up on your statement to the fact that you do not believe that we are genetically disposed to have religious beliefs, and that evolution is purely a matter of physiological changes.
In my experience, human behaviour is often dictated by reflexes that can only have an evolutionary origin. Our desire to mate, our behavior around specimens of the opposite gender, Alpha male dominance behavior, our perception of physical beauty (which is really our minds telling us which partner we are likely to produce the best offspring with) - such behavioral patterns are based on evolution. I'm sure you agree with that.
With this in mind, is it really so unlikely that humans are genetically disposed to require religious beliefs to survive, just like we need to have a desire to mate in order to preserve the species?
It is certainly very interesting that religion has evolved independantly on all continents, and even in small sequestered societies without any contact with the rest of the world. If this isn't a sign of an evolutionary process, then how do you account for that?
Fundamentally speaking, our genetic goal is to procreate and ensure the survival of our species. This means that we must be able to find a suitable mate, and we must stay alive for the longest possible time. This is also why we have such a strong fear of dying, and it might explain why religion might be a prerequisite for our evolution up to this point. It's certainly possible.
An interesting concept I sometimes use is the following. As a species we have been around in our current shape and size for about 200.000 years. In that time we have evolved aggressively, we have mapped the world, tamed our natural enemies, built computeres and travelled to the moon and beyond.
Dinosaurs were around for *millions* of years. Why did they not build computers and travel to the moon? We can laugh at the concept but it turns out it is not so easy to answer that question.
One answer might be that humans got a genetic break when we thought up the idea of a God. It gave us mental strength, it enabled us to see beyond our own deaths, and so inspired us to do selfless acts to achieve goals for the species as a whole. Those who believed were somehow better able to survive, and so their offspring were also genetically disposed to believe in etherical beings.
Doesn't it strike you as odd, that in our society with nano technology and plasma tv's we are still inclined to believe in a being that we cannot see, we cannot hear, we cannot taste and for which we have no physical evidence of its existance whatsoever? It just isn't logical. Find a scientist and ask him if he believes in God, and you will find that the majority does, even though it goes against everything they know. Somehow you manage to work it into your physical reality, you say that God is in "heaven" and you imagine that He has a grand scheme for all of us. Even though there is no evidence of that, nothing but our own inclination to believe it.
You may disagree, but I think such realizations show very clearly our genetic disposition to adopt religious beliefs. And if we have a genetic disposition for it, we have it because we need it to survive as a species. Evolution doesn't give us anything we don't need.
Your point about humans having no natural enemies except ourselves is interesting. Because from a genetic point of view, we are failing in a spectacular way to realize just that. Everyone knows and fears sharp teeth, but we are all happlessly walking about destrying the very habitat we live in and we have no instict of fear to limit us in this endeavour.
So when we run out of oil, when we can't breathe the air, when all other animals are gone, when the ice has melted and the forrests have died, when we perish by the millions in some nuclear holocaust, perhaps then will we be able to evolve past the point of mere self reproduction and self preservation.
I personally dont believe in god but when I had my daughter, I had to spend quite some time deciding how to raise her, and I decided that I will not sway her and when she is 5 years old I am going to start attending church.
Sadly, my strongest point was that ignorance is bliss and in my opinion if her quality of life betters because she can believe in a "God" then I would be happy.
I sometimes with I could just believe but I cant, I am cursed with a skeptical mind.
I'm as anti-religious as the next man however reading the report its pretty plain to see that the author holds anti-religious and anti-american beliefs, in a paper like this you'r supposed to be impartial. It does undermine the paper somewhat even if it is factualy correct.
history prooves me right..... its just the fact that religious nut cracks never face up to reality and cover their eyes, ears and mouth all the time... to avoid seeing the truth of their beliefs......
Without the benefit of having read any of the supporting material, I will say that it at least sounds like a conclusion was foregone and they cooked up some data to prove it. Now I don't like religion at all and Bush and the Pope can both **** my ****, but to just say that the US is in the mess it's currently in solely because of religion, and not also because of a host of other factors both historical and recent, is quite a huge generalization. You could also say nations that have parliamentary systems of government and a queen fare better than republican systems by that measure. It's just too broad.
I'm well aware of the mechanics of brain state changes, have read a lot of content on using the different states of the brain and training yourself to move between them at will - which is largely how meditation works.
This was completely different, nor was it my only experience - I have had other more... direct... experiences since then, but the question was how I came to be Christian.
My case is not that extraordinary - pretty much all of the Christians I know personally arrived at Christianity by something of a similar route, although the circumstances are different, I only know one Christian who was raised that way.
I get the impression that many of you are way out of touch with contemporary Christianity, and are confusing it with either something you read about, or something you personally experienced in the past.
"When it comes to pastors and churches, its obvious that your experience and understanding is lacking. The church PAYS the pastor a wage, just like any professional employer"
That's just some branches of christianity. Some don't. Personally the priests, pastors, etc in the church I went to when I was younger, didn't pay them. They did it because they wanted to, not for money. During the day, they had normal jobs, just like everyone else.
posted on shortnews not too long ago (at least i think it was SN, anyone?) that said a survey done by churchgoers in the US saw that the more frequently people went to church the more likely they were to SUPPORT the iraq WAR. Is there any more proof you need of the skewed and twisted morality of the religious right? These people are supposed to be LOVING their neighbor, but most want to KILL them. I'm not taking a swing at all religious people, but if you confess to a faith can you at least try to live within its boundarys? It seems to me that these 'hell fearing' religous ppls are scared of alot of other things too...
1st off.. if god exists, why are there atheist. Stupid invisible nothing has purposely designed me to go to hell and thousands of others just like me. Does this amuse it or something or is it just a sick twisted f* head. Or does it not exsist
2nd. If there is hell, I would be praised by this so called devil for doing his work and discouraging believing in a so called god. He rebelled against god because god sucks. Why would the devil do his work if he hates him. Doesn't make any sense to me. I hate you so I am going to do what you tell me !!! yea right
3rd. if god exists it designed homosexuals. They are in all breeds of animals and mammals, dog’s, cat’s penguins, dolphins, and humans. This means that either; ever-single living creature on this earth has free choice or god designed things this way. Or the more simple answer - there is no such thing as god
4th if jesus is the son of god and he returns. I will be the first one to line up and kill him again !!! YEA
Exactly if in fact Jesus Mohammed or Buddha did exist they were just real people whose lives and words have been twisted out of all proportion.
"just zis guy" - Douglas Adams fan?
"The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence...."
exactly. people believing in god or God is big business and just like the tobacco industry they wont stop their sales no matter how much it screws people up.
am I American, yes I am American and British - i have dual nationality and two passports to prove it
@lauriesman
"I don't NEED to believe in anything beyond what my own hands and eyes bring before me. I DO believe in something more though, not out fear, or a desire to gain something for myself, but simply because it is something I believe in."
so the only reason you believe is basically you were brought up that way. Why do you feel the need to imagine, and it is imagination for there is no proof anywhere it is so, that there is something bigger more powerful with an intelligent plan of design? Darwin should be more than enough to show you we were random made.
We are brought into this world random made no intelligent design or precision grade we are what we are and t'will always be so dont put faith in gods or giant legends though one thing made us to be this way the littlest thing - called DNA
"It is certainly very interesting that religion has evolved independantly on all continents, and even in small sequestered societies without any contact with the rest of the world. If this isn't a sign of an evolutionary process, then how do you account for that?"
easy human life didnt spring up around the world on the same day. What we know as human beings evolved in Africa and spread across the world. Yes primitive man believed and worshipped the animals and sun and the moon - because he didnt know otherwise.
"One answer might be that humans got a genetic break when we thought up the idea of a God."
No we got a genetic break when our brains got bigger.
But this does make me want to ask a question. Primitive man for thousands and thousands of years worshipped the gods of the land... for they brought the bounty of food knowledge and bountiful harvest etc... so in this day and age our equivalent would be Walmart, Time Warner Cable and Jensons 2 in 1 fertilizer maybe?
I was not brought up in a religious environment, in fact quite the opposite. You have either a very short, biggoted memory, or an incapacity to read. I was 25 when I became a Christian.
Why do you feel the need to live inside a closed little box, that is defined solely by what you directly experience? Where would science be if scientists never dares to think outside the box of the known and recorded?
I know what I and my friends have experienced - which I don't expect you to accept or believe in any way shape or form. However, you are making your assumptions and stating your position on a ridiculous lack of evidence regarding MY life.
DNA is a composite of smaller things called molecules, which in turn are made up of atoms and electron clouds, which are then made up off protons and neutrons, which are... etc
I'm quite happy for you to believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus, if it makes you happy. Feel free. You can even start a religion on it if you want, thats entirely up to you.
"You have either a very short, biggoted memory, or an incapacity to read. I was 25 when I became a Christian."
I did not see your post on this no i dont read alllll the posts ;p there are far too many.
"Why do you feel the need to live inside a closed little box, that is defined solely by what you directly experience?"
because that is the reality we call life? and its not a closed box per se' because i am open to theories and projectures - hell i even watch histories mysteries.. but all these are based on fact not fiction.
"Where would science be if scientists never dares to think outside the box of the known and recorded?"
Yes look at Darwin for instance what would have happened if he had not been interested in where life came from. What would have happened if his religion conflicted with his theories and all of his contemporaries cast him out because of his interest in science... oh wait that DID happen.
"DNA is a composite of smaller things called molecules, which in turn are made up of atoms and electron clouds, which are then made up off protons and neutrons, which are... etc"
you know this and still you want to believe that life was created in 7 days? You are the one living in a box my friend :)
first of all, in meditation it's all about where IT takes you .. not where you think it'll take ya .. cause if it's a "where you THINK it'll take you" .. it will take you to where "you think" it will ... I did the fasting and meditation practice for a year .. and I was raised in the christian back ground (my father was a preacher in 3 different churches, I know Gary Condit and his Dad personally - I seen nothing but fear breeders and hate teachers, AKA liars, in every church I was in, from baptist, catholic to mormon).
I listened to my inner voice (john 10:2-4)
anywayssss .. one my lessons I learned was "Repentance" - Repent From Christianity and all likes of self-destruction, for the Kingdom Of God Is In My Hands.
If I believe in sin then I am a servent of sin, therefore I found there was NO such thing as sin, for I am not a servent of this impaired thought disease ... the power from the surrounding energies from within and without (aka inside and outside) .. and Jesus was NOT the only son of god .. and also, why make a referrence to a him, when describing God, it says let US make man in OUR image, male and female .. but I met a few people in churches that actually denied the male and female written part .. and said "it means God and Jesus making man" .. hmmm, two male figures, role figures, creating life, then who are we to say that gay people are wrong??
We describe him as Father, because he posseses qualities that we most easily associate with a father figure.
Angels, likewise, are genderless, and so will we be, when we are raised to heaven (or hell).
Also, if you reference the hebrew scriptures for the genesis verses, it gets quite confusing. Firstly, the creation of man, is a plural - refering to mankind rather than an individual man. This is a plural reference to Adam, followed by a singular reference to Adam, when discussing the creation of Eve.
I do find it facinating to hear of ppl who have, one way or another, been contacted by or been in the presence of 'god'. Why the deity should choose to make his presence known to such individuals and not more deserving others is a mystery. Maybe such ppl are special or chosen. Maybe god singles them out for some other reason. It all seems rather odd and IMO the answer lies in the persons head and nowhere else. That doesn't mean that god does not exist, but why he would avail himself to some and not others at random is extremely un-godly.
the fact that he only reveals himself to those people who have been told about him. You have to have exposure to the christian culture before he reveals himself.
Also it comes back to the moral superority that I tend to find in recent born-agains. (Not all mind you but many if not most...)
They tend to give me the creeps. Like used car salesmen and real estate agents.
God reveals himself to anyone who sincerely seeks him. There is no 'select few' that you seem to be refering to - and there is also noone more or less deserving. Such comments are just another example of thinking that is closed and prejudiced.
You can be as arrogant and derogatory as you like - the truth is, you're acting like a bigot.
As to the wino's - who knows? Maybe they have multiple personalities, maybe they really are talking to God, or maybe their old-style metalic bridges in their teeth are causing them to pick up talk back radio. Do you know? I'd say the answer is a definitive NO.
But hey, I guess in your view its perfectly okay to be insulting and derogatory about a whole demographic of people, so long as it isn't race or sexuality that's the issue, right?
only reveals himself to a select few now you know who the wino's in the car park are really talking to when they are shouting obscenities at thin air.... by: juleslady 09/30/2005 03:28 AM
I think the only reason you find my remarks insulting and derogatory is because I do not believe what you do and so you think my remarks are rude. To me they are not rude because I do not believe and so i am not insulting anyone. If you could sit on my side of the fence - believing as I do - my remarks would seem... well.. reasonable.
See, your remarks would be like me calling homosexuals deluded and twisted perverts.
Derogatory - perhaps if you could sit MY side the fence you would see that someone implying psychosis or mental disease, and or intellectual frailty could possibly by construed as offensive.
*sigh* Some here may know me and some may not. Matters little but i haven't commented on anything in a loooong time because i haven't felt the need. The truth is i heard a voice in my head and saw a vision that compeled me to make a statement. From a personal point of view i find myself and others i know to be way more moral than so-called 'religious' people. I was brought up a strict catholic, i mean, no whistling in the house because that's inviting satan in, if you walk/drive by a church/chapel (anyone here know the difference?) you HAVE to make the sign of the cross. My school had the good ole priests and nuns to beat the crap out of you if you mis-spoke the belief...oh yeah, i was raised in Scotland btw in case anyone here knows what they were like. And i say 'were' because they long ago banished those ways because they did not work. God is a spiritual being who has no corporeal form therefore no real impact on your life. I decide to be a good person because people deserve respect and goodwill, nothing more, ther e is no power over me forcing me to 'be good' I don't believe in an almighty being that has shaped and controls our very lives. But i wish there was because it would be easy to blame an external force, satan, on some of the evils that happen in this world. "God didn't build himself that throne" People worship in masses, why? God can hear you just as well in your house as he can in a church that cost $500k...pastors wages not with standing. Now. I want to make it clear here. Religion works for some people and it doesn't for some. But who is to say anyones god is more powerful than anothers? God is more powerful than Allah, or Rah or Set or Zeus or are they all the same one god? So then you are saying he sets people against each other because each religion has a different view on who "God" is.
In the end, only God really knows if and which other gods are really Himself by another name, and which are false idols or something more dangerous. In my own opinion you have to follow your heart in what you believe. Nooone truly knows with in empirical defining evidence whether God does or doesn't exist, the only knowledge you have is what I call 'heart knowledge' that unshakable, inexplicable belief in something, that you know to be true without any evidence for or against.
You can't FORCE or COERCE someone into believing something, they have to come to it of their own free will or not at all.
We have gatherings in church because it is a way to share our experiences, and growth, to discuss Christian issues, and to pray together for each other, rather than praying apart for ourselves. It provides a 'degaussing' effect, helping us to realign ourselves to following God after a week of heavy and stressful material concerns.
"only God really knows if and which other gods are really Himself by another name" By that statement you are admitting there *may* be other forces at work or you just mis-spoke what you meant. The biggest issue i myself have always have had is "The father, the son and the holy ghost" God impregnated Mary so that Mary could give birth to himself? And God IS the son if you know your stuff. But He gave up his one begoten son for the Sins of all mankind...which God created...and if that's the case where does Lucifer come into it? Angels were pissed because man had free will right? But hell was created before man walked the earth...Adam and Eve...which brings up a whole different kettle of fish regarding incest with the mother and sisters. Like i said, some people need 'something' to believe in which is cool. My daughter still believes in santa claus and the Easter bunny (not going into Jesus and Easter). Should i tell her that they are fake? No, because she will realise they are sooner or later though i personaly wish she wouldn't because they are nice fairy tales... BTW, i genuinely hope you do believe in what you are saying and your NOT a post troll...
Could I be wrong about God's existence? Yes, of course. I mean, apart from what I know in my heart, there's no proof one way or the other, right? Objectively speaking, I COULD be utterly deluded and mistaken - or I could be absolutely right.
Choice and free will require alternatives.. mankind is created with both a materialistic and spiritual nature, a duality. God places the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden, and admonishes adam and eve to leave it alone, while Satan, as the serpent provides the temptation. Alternate options, choice.
God could have prevented mankind from sinning, but not without voiding the entire purpose of creation - that human kind choose to love him freely of their own will. Any other kind of 'love' is meaningless. It is the same reason he cannot interfere or reveal himself plainly to those who do not already believe - doing so would influence them and deny their free choice.
Did God create Lucifer/Satan with the intention that he should become so jealous of human kind he would rebel? can't answer that one, or though I suspect it is so. None the less, Satan has freewill too, in that he chose to rebel, rather than follow God's will.
We are told that Angel's do not have free will, or the capacity to make choices - I'm not sure on this, because of Satan's rejection of God's plan.
In the end, it's only food for thought and affects how I feel about God, and his plan, very little.
I don't presume to understand any of its almost infinite complexity.
Exactly :) The only teeny-weeny drawback on a God issue is this. You can kill people, there are saints that are well known murders, and you can TRUELY repent before you die and aknowledge Jesus, not God btw, and you shall go to heaven. One mans heaven is another mans hell etc. Its all subjective and you are correct you cannot make anyone change their 'beliefs'. I know this is a *little* OT ut then why do 'christian' people renounce the suicide bombers whom believ in thier 'God'? I know you know all about the Spanish inquisition, we ALL know it was a bad and evil, subjective again ;), thing but the people doing it actually believed God told them what to do and these were GOOD CHRISTIAN folk. So like i said believe in what you will, not just Lauriesman, just try and not force your beliefs on others.
"that human kind choose to love him freely of their own will." There is no choice. That's the point. You WILL love me AND obey me or you will suffer for all eternity.
"that human kind choose to love him freely of their own will." There is no choice. That's the point. You WILL love me AND obey me or you will suffer for all eternity.
For those who do not know God or have never experienced a relationship with him it all seems as nonsense and illogical and unprovable and something for those that are weak of mind or for those who do not have enough intellengence not to be duped.
For those who truly know him and have had a life changing experience we see you as being blind to a spiritual world that is indeed much more real and permanant so much bigger than the one you are currently living in. You will not see this spiritual world without your eyes being open to it by God because it is hidden from man and only revealed by God to those who choose to follow him with all their heart.
I had a life changing experience on 12/8/1974 at 5:30 PM that has forever changed my life and made it so much better and had influenced every thought and action from that wonderful moment in time. I was not in a church and had not been in church for years, I was alone in the car traveling down the interstate. I had a personal encounter with God that you will not in any way understand unless you experience the same. You may be asking, ok what happened that was so great. ... I ask God for forgiveness for my sin and for living my life as I had been doing, I felt so very very sorry for the things I had done that I knew broke his laws, my heart was just broken over them to the point of tears. I was instantly and forever more changed, I was washed so clean on the inside and forgiven as if I have never done any wrong in my entire life and as if I had just been made perfect in the eyes of God. The feeling of peace and cleanliness and joy were beyond anything that could ever be put into words or fully described, I had a complete change of heart and in the things I desired, I felt as if I had just been given a heart so full of love for every person reguardless of what they did to me I could only love them and want the best for them, I saw mankind and people through the eyes of God and understood his unexplainable love for all of us, and I felt as if my eyes were instantly opened and allowed to see a spiritual world that exist that was just moments ago totally hidden from me. I just could not understand why I was unable to see it before because it was so visable and plain now. I sit here now with tears of joy in my eyes even now as I write this recalling this wonderful experience with our creator.
That experience is called being born again, it happened 29 years ago, I am still as changed now as I was then. This is not and experience that can be explained by logic or something you will understand without Gods help and a real relationship with him, if you dont understand the things I am writing here it is understandable, I did not either until my eyes were opened to it by the supernatural work of God. One thing I leave you with, you can have this life changing experience just as I did by doing a few simple things. First admit to God that you have sinned and ask for his forgivness and really mean it from the heart. Ask that he would come into you heart and live within you and that he would reveal himself and the hidden spiritual world to you just as I have described here. He will do it. It is a promise.
As you rightly said "this is not and experience that can be explained by logic". The mind and a persons conscience work in ways that we are yet to understand and so your experience may or may not have been genuinely godly. You have attributed it as a godly experience and choose to see it as such but that doesn't mean that it was. I have seen strange lights in the sky and believe in extraterrestial life but that doesn't mean that what I saw was extraterrestial life even if I choose to believe that it was. Your experience, and those of others, are personal beliefs, which is fine and nobody should try to take away your right to have such beliefs, but when ppl who believe that they have had an encounter with god then use it to impose their belief system on others then it can be dangerous. A relevant example of this IMO is GW Bush - he truly (I think) believes that god is with him, loves him and guides him which makes his actions completely legitimate and beyond question in his eyes. The judges involved in the Salem witch trials of 1692 truly believed in what they did and only one (to the best of my knowledge) ever admitted to the error of his ways after the events. Nobody can ever verify or authenticate spiritual experience which is why it must remain a personal issue and certainly shouldn't be the foundation of such things as child indoctrination or the introduction of religious law.
how many ppl would profess to religiously-guided moral beliefs if it were proved that there was no god or afterlife? A truly loving and caring person chooses a moral path in life out of free will and not out of fear of divine judgement and subsequent retribution. Ppl should not need a god to bring out the best in them. Maybe that is why I have never had a divine experience despite in the past longing for it and being bought up with religious beliefs. I believe in a 'god' of sorts but it bears no resemblence to the one marketed by religion and I do not conduct myself in a decent and moral way for any other reason than because I believe it to be right and to be one of the few things that give my life meaning. I do not need to be told by anyone not to kill in order not to do it. Maybe others do, though....
"I do not need to be told by anyone not to kill in order not to do it. Maybe others do, though...."
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in the talmud it brings this up, and says why do we need the 10 commandments to be written down, they are logical (well most at least today, i guess more back then) like dont kill, diont seteal, ect. one can find these laws in nature, like dont steal can ne learned from ants. they never steal from one another. but they do steal the food to begin with, hence the need to have it written, or told by god. it brngs examples for others, ut i am to lazy to type them right now
As I said, I would not expect you to understand it. I would not have either. But, never the less, it is true just as I have stated it. The one experience mentioned was just the starting point, my experience with a relationship with God is daily and forever anew, there is no other experience on earth that can compare, not even come close to it, even after 29 years it never gets old and is still wonderful in every way.
There are a lot of comments on this page about religion and people who have had bad experiences. That is understandable. Religion and church denomination is a man made idea. Much of it is traditions created by people and their ideas of who God is but they are very often incorrect or even totally misguided or just outright wrong in thier ideas. Mankind had done a lot of damage under the name of religion and in the name of God. God did not ask or want that we be "religious", he actually condemmed it and those who think they are made right in his eyes by following man made rules and traditions of by their own good works. He only ask that you have a relationship with him and make him first in your life, he did not ordane organized religion as you see it today. That is mans idea. Kind of like when someone steals your identity and goes out and does a lot of bad stuff in your name and ruins your credability without your consent. They can do all kinds of bad things to their fellow man while claiming the name of God but the first commandment God gave is to love thy neighbor as thy self. Any thing that goes contrary to this is not prompted by God, he does not break his own commandments or tell others to do so.
Being a member of an organized religion does not necessarily mean you have a relationship with God. It means you follow a set of beliefs but it does not always mean they are correct. It seems that everything mankind puts his hand to has a way of becoming corrupt or disfuctional in one way or another. That is our imperfect nature and why we need God's help.
Tell you what, on Monday, as I'm taking a North Shore train across the Sydney Harbor Bridge, to work, I'll try and snap a reasonably clear picture of the Opera House for you with my camera phone?
