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01/04/2006 09:11 AM ID: 52071 Permalink   

Two Mormons Shot, One Dies

 

Chesapeake, Va. Two Mormon missionarys where both shot while preaching the word in a local neighborhood on Monday just after 6pm.

They apparently where approached by a man on foot and then the man opened fire and then ran away.
The identities of the persons shot have not been released

The Two Mormons where rushed to Sentara Norfolk General Hospital where one of the victims died and the other was in serious condition. Police closed down the neighborhood while they searched for the killer. No arrests have been made.

 
  Source: www.courttv.com  
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  38 Comments
  
  A shame  
 
Although I disagree with Mormon doctrine, there's really no excuse for this from anyone. It's a shame that in a country where we "value" the right to differing opinions, in the end, our anger towards those who disagree with us can erupt in such senseless violence.
 
  by: Moojoo     01/04/2006 03:07 PM     
  He Went a Little too Far n/t  
 
n/t
 
  by: tiggyfiggy   01/04/2006 03:19 PM     
  at first  
 
i thought it said two morons shot to death. and i was a bit upset. then after greading i see it says mormons. now i wish i did not read it, cause who cares, it was just mormons
 
  by: NeoFlux   01/04/2006 06:04 PM     
  Well..  
 
I'd say Moojoo summed up my opinion fairly well.
 
  by: StarShadow     01/04/2006 08:29 PM     
  Mormons huh?  
 
I live in the part of Canada where the Mormon church seems to be the most prominent. I do disagree with their doctrine but for the most part these missionaries are just doing what they feel is right and are in their minds doing you a favor, but at least Trying to bring you into their church. They can be pretty annoying, sort of like the door-to-door vacuum salesman who won't leave when you ask them to.
 
  by: inthemode   01/04/2006 10:36 PM     
  Uhmmm...?  
 
"where the older victim died and the other was listed in serious condition Monday night."

If the younger one was to pull through, what would happen when he's released? He would have all the technology, machines, and whatnot the mormons ban in their doctrine to thank for being alive. Could he still be a true mormon?
 
  by: Syphon   01/05/2006 12:54 AM     
  ...Are you....  
 
thinking of the Amish?

Mormon's are just... weird people. But they don't forbid the use of technology. Do they?
 
  by: Dayron   01/05/2006 03:00 AM     
  I think..  
 
it's just blood transfusions they are against.
 
  by: StarShadow     01/05/2006 03:24 AM     
  I dont agree  
 
with door to door preching, but this is to far, insult them, poke fun at them, whatever you like, but no-one has the right to hurt a person who is not causeing anyone or anything any harm.
 
  by: ssxxxssssss   01/05/2006 04:01 AM     
  That is wretched.  
 
Chesapeake has a strong Baptist background.

I really don't get what Mormons are doing preaching in the USA. Are people actually converting? I see the missionaries out here in Europe and only feel pity for them. They are really going against the odds. It is offensive to most people to have religion brought to your front door. (this is why the local housewives make the missionaries vacuum their apartments, etc.)

Sounds like they just got hit by some random hooligans.
 
  by: theironboard     01/05/2006 09:53 AM     
  See  
 
The sad thing is that if you are male and raised in this cult you are pretty much forced to become a missionary. So many of the young men you see riding their bikes around knocking on doors did not choose this life, they were brainwashed and are forced to do what they do for rent money and so they can eat. They are often denied contact with family and treated like crap by the cult.

So in a way I feel sorry for the Mormon door knockers, it's not their fault. Many are too young and brainwashed to escape this insidious cult.

There is of course no excuse for violence against others and those responsible should be brought to justice. I'd also like to see the Mormon cult sued for putting young teens in harms way in this manner.
 
  by: ZCT     01/05/2006 01:38 PM     
  Brainwashed?  
 
Brainwashed? Cult? lol.

I'm curious if ZCT actually understands the Mormon religion or maybe ZCT is just spouting out things that ZCT has been told.
Sue the religion?
The young men choose to go on a mission, how are you going to sue that?

Regardless, it was two human beings and apparently from the article they were shot at for no good reason. Whoever the shooter surely doesn't have any justification at this point that I can tell.
 
  by: hack   01/05/2006 08:57 PM     
  Mormon Misconceptions  
 
Its not a cult. You can chose not to serve a mission which you save for before your mission. You speak with family on the phone on special holidays and e-mail or write weekly. As for the effectiveness of their work, well from six people in 1830 to 12 million plus in 2006. I think they are doing good. Read our basic beliefs (Twelve Articles of Faith) at LDS.org and as for the organization/ structure it is similar to that of the Catholic hierarchy.
 
  by: STM127   01/05/2006 10:02 PM     
  every religion is a cult  
 
or started as one.

From Moses to Jesus to Johseph Smith. From Muhammed to Buhddah. All would be defined as cults by the modern use of the term (in the negative) when the religions were first born.

cult - a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious

What was Moses to the Pharaohs? Jesus to the Isrealites (or Christianity to the Romans?) Buhddah to the native religions of China?

All cults. Cults that grew to replace previous, more "primitive" religions. Cults that gained a foothold in the collective human psyche until they became dominant religions.

But even then, specific enclaves of the major religions could be considered cults if established in areas where the local dominant religions are different.

This is essentialy what Missionaries do -- they establish small Christian cults, bringing the "word of God" or the "name of Christ" to the "heathens". If these "heathens" used a language that had a word that meant "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious", that is EXACTLY what they would consider the Missionaries and their flocks, to be.
 
  by: Dedolito     01/05/2006 10:21 PM     
  @hack  
 
“Brainwashed? Cult? lol.”

- Yeah that is so funny. Maybe you should read up about what Mormonism is really about from actual people that escaped:

http://www.exmormon.org/...

”I'm curious if ZCT actually understands the Mormon religion or maybe ZCT is just spouting out things that ZCT has been told.”

- I’ve met Mormons, I’ve read about their beliefs, my receptionist lost her son to Mormonism for three years. My sister in law had three Mormon friends. Don’t try to patronize me, especially when you don’t even seem capable of constructing a sentence.

”Sue the religion?”

- It’s quite easy to do. You sue the church, just like when people sue the Catholic Church when they get raped by a priest.

”The young men choose to go on a mission, how are you going to sue that?”

- While I understand it is a choice, they are often heavily coerced into going on one. Well the boys are, the girls are of course treated like second class citizens.

”Regardless, it was two human beings and apparently from the article they were shot at for no good reason. Whoever the shooter surely doesn't have any justification at this point that I can tell.”

- I certainly don’t condone shooting people for being in a cult. What happened to these boys is reprehensible. Of course it would never have happened had the cult not sent them off in the first place.
 
  by: ZCT     01/05/2006 11:30 PM     
  @STM127  
 
“Its not a cult.”

- It was founded by a crazy person who believed he could see through mountains using a magic stone. He was arrested for being a fraudster and a thief, and believed he could run to be US President. Even his own wife believed that he was lying when he pretended to translate the magic scrolls he bought from a traveling salesman into what is known now as the Book of Mormon (and known to be a fake translation).

But sure, if you want to pretend it’s a religion go right ahead.

“You can chose not to serve a mission which you save for before your mission.”

- Oh how cool, you can save up money so you can go and work for free for the church for two years, yay! As you well know boys are made to believe missions are very important and while they can decide not to go I’m sure most Mormon families would be a little disappointed in their sons who didn’t want to go. It’s all about subtle coercion, not about mandating it. This is a very sophisticated cult.

“You speak with family on the phone on special holidays and e-mail or write weekly.”

- Oh how lovely. The ‘church’ gets to tell them when they can speak with or visit their own parents. Yeah that sounds very normal and not at all cult like. Great points.

“As for the effectiveness of their work, well from six people in 1830 to 12 million plus in 2006. I think they are doing good.”

- As for doing good, that’s a questionable statement. AIDS has gone from one person to millions of people in the past couple of decades. I’d hardly say that the disease is ‘doing good.’

My question though is how many of those people that you claim to be a Mormon are still alive? Because Mormons like to baptize dead people without their knowledge to add to their numbers.

“Read our basic beliefs (Twelve Articles of Faith) at LDS.org and as for the organization/ structure it is similar to that of the Catholic hierarchy.”

- Why would I want to do that? I don’t believe in any organized religion as it is, so I have even less interest in a weird cult that steals money from its members and treats women like crap. Your beloved cult exploits people, takes their money, refused black people entry until the 70s when they were pretty much forced into it. The founder was a whack job who thought he could run for President and claimed to have magic powers. He stole ceremonies from the Freemasons and inserted them into his made up religion.

There are hundreds of stories from former cult members describing the horrific inner workings of this cult, which of course good Mormons are not supposed to read because they are forbidden from reading material critical to their ‘religion.’ So excuse me for being just a little skeptical about Mormonism and the points you made.

Oh and in a lovely arrogant manner of most cults Nephi 14:6 and 22:24 claims that anyone who is not part of the Mormon Church is worshiping the Devil. Nice touch.
 
  by: ZCT     01/05/2006 11:58 PM     
  @ZCT and others...  
 
As a former mormon, I gotta say, there are some misconceptions around here about them.

For one, they don't ban tech or blood transfusions.

They do ban alchol, caffine, cigarettes, and illegal activity.

As for them bringing the word to the heathens, you might be a little off there too. They do want to spread their religion, but they also believe that everyone goes to heaven, from the heathens, to the murderers, to the christians, muslims, and mormons. Depending on how good of life you lived, you end up in one of 3 stages of heaven.

As for being forced on a mission, there is a lot of focus on that, for both the men and women. I'm not sure where you got the line "the girls are of course treated like second class citizens.", personally I never saw that while I was there. The women aren't allowed to hold the priesthood, but that is true for just about every christian sect.

"So many of the young men you see riding their bikes around knocking on doors did not choose this life"

I never went on one, and everyone that I know that went on one choose to be there. Sorry, but if you don't want to go on one, you are still welcome in the church, and all that.

"my receptionist lost her son to Mormonism for three years."

Huh? How do you lose a son for 3 years to a religion? Did the receptionist disown her son for 3 years or something? I really don't get that part of what your saying.

Personally, my parents and about 30% of my brothers and sisters are mormons, the rest aren't. I still see my parents, and they don't care that the athiests and pagens in the family aren't mormon.
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 12:07 AM     
  @ZCT part 2  
 
"who believed he could see through mountains using a magic stone."

Yeah, really. That's a new one on me. He never clained he could see through mountains. He did claim to have "magic" stones, but that was for translating the golden plates into the book of mormon.

"Even his own wife believed that he was lying when he pretended to translate the magic scrolls he bought from a traveling salesman into what is known now as the Book of Mormon"

Wow, umm.. ok, the golden plates, he claimed was buried by (someone who I can't remember the name of) years and years ago, then the angel appeared to him and showed him where they were buried. His wife didn't believe he was a fraud, well she might of, but there isn't really any proof of that, so she must have kept that to her self. Now his friend who helped him translate (the guy in the scribe position)'s wife didn't believe his, and thought he was a fraud.

"Because Mormons like to baptize dead people without their knowledge to add to their numbers."

There is a way to baptize the dead with their permission?

But, yes, they do baptize in the name of the dead. They however don't count that as part of their numbers. I looked around the internet, and it seems that the 12 million number that was quoted is fairly accurate.

Their belief is that in baptizing in the name of the dead will give the dead the option of accepting jesus in heaven. Now mind you, they also belive that those dead that are baptized make their own choice if they want it or not, they just provide the dead with the option.
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 12:18 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
"Nephi 14:6 and 22:24"

I'm not sure about that... I'll have to look those up next time I'm at my parents house.

"refused black people entry until the 70s when they were pretty much forced into it."

I'm not sure where you heard that... but black people they were allowed, although they didn't allow them to hold the priesthood, which I agree, is no good, but they did allow them in before the 70s. As for forced, yeah, I have no idea where you get that from.
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 12:24 AM     
  @ All with whack misconceptions...  
 
Wow... Where did you hear these things? The National Enquirer? Give me three credible sources on "who believed he could see through mountains using a magic stone" or " a weird cult that steals money from its members and treats women like crap." or "Even his own wife believed that he was lying when he pretended to translate the magic scrolls he bought from a traveling salesman into what is known now as the Book of Mormon." Dig some, ask some Mormons, but don't just blindly slander another relegion b/c no matter who is really right or even if you believe in God, God probably frowns on that.
 
  by: STM127   01/06/2006 02:55 AM     
  @STM127  
 
“Wow... Where did you hear these things? The National Enquirer?”

- Yes I get all my news from there.

“Give me three credible sources on "who believed he could see through mountains using a magic stone"”

- So I am supposed to research three sources to debunk the claims of a cult?

http://www.xmission.com/...

http://www.whichprophets.com/...

http://www.lds-mormon.com/...

http://www.realmormonhistory.com/...

http://www.whatismormonism.com/...

" a weird cult that steals money from its members and treats women like crap."

- It’s called a tithing, usually mandated at 10% of your income:

http://www.mormon.org/...

- As for the women thing, name five prominent Mormon women who are single. A woman’s status in the church is governed by the status of her husband, she cannot move up the ranks by herself.

"Even his own wife believed that he was lying when he pretended to translate the magic scrolls he bought from a traveling salesman into what is known now as the Book of Mormon."

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/...

Here is a list of plagiarism in the book.

http://www.atheists.org/...

http://farms.byu.edu/...

Info about his wife stealing pages.

“Dig some, ask some Mormons, but don't just blindly slander another relegion b/c no matter who is really right or even if you believe in God, God probably frowns on that.”

- Sorry but Mormonism is not a religion, it is a cult. The more you look into it and the more you read accounts of former Mormons this becomes apparent. Read all about it:

http://www.exmormon.org/...

http://www.ex-sda.com/...

http://www.realmormonhistory.com/...

http://www.xpolygamist.com/...

http://www.refutingmormonism.com/...

But I’m sure your mind is already made up.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 04:22 AM     
  @tellgar  
 
“I'm not sure where you heard that... but black people they were allowed, although they didn't allow them to hold the priesthood, which I agree, is no good, but they did allow them in before the 70s.”

http://lds.about.com/...

http://nowscape.com/...

http://www.saintsalive.com/...

http://www.lds-mormon.com/...

http://www.realmormonhistory.com/...

“As for forced, yeah, I have no idea where you get that from.”

- Well let’s call it peer pressure from society.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 04:28 AM     
  ha ha ha ha!!!  
 
where's your god now???
 
  by: biohazard   01/06/2006 04:49 AM     
  @telgar  
 
“As a former mormon, I gotta say, there are some misconceptions around here about them. For one, they don't ban tech or blood transfusions.”

- I never claimed that.

”They do ban alchol, caffine, cigarettes, and illegal activity.”

- I believe they frown upon R rated movies too. But yes I knew all that.

”As for being forced on a mission, there is a lot of focus on that, for both the men and women.”

- Focus?

Anyway, some links from ex-Mormons:

http://www.exmormon.org/...

http://www.exmormon.org/...

http://www.exmormon.org/...

http://www.exmormon.org/...

http://www.exmormon.org/...

I could go on, but you get the idea. Keep in mind these are actual former Mormons writing here and there are hundreds of posts, are they all lying?

“I'm not sure where you got the line "the girls are of course treated like second class citizens.", personally I never saw that while I was there. The women aren't allowed to hold the priesthood, but that is true for just about every christian sect.”

- How high up can an unmarried woman get in the Mormon church? Think about it.

http://www.exmormon.org/...


”I never went on one, and everyone that I know that went on one choose to be there. Sorry, but if you don't want to go on one, you are still welcome in the church, and all that.”

- Why do so many people choose to give up two years of their lives away from their family with no coercion of any kind?

”Huh? How do you lose a son for 3 years to a religion? Did the receptionist disown her son for 3 years or something? I really don't get that part of what your saying.”

- It’s a long story and I’m sure many were similar on that former Mormon site. But basically her son made friends with some Mormons got a job at a Mormon bookstore of some kind in California. Before long they had brainwashed him into leaving home and not attending college. He was moved in with some family in the same town at the age of 18 and was forbidden from seeing his real parents. They pretty much lost all track of him for three years. He was sexually abused by the Mormon family which was really the only reason he began to think it was wrong. Finally he got back in contact with his parents and eventually extricated himself from the cult.

Just because your experiences were not that bad doesn’t mean you know all about Mormons in every state and country. This happened in California about 12 years ago. My receptionist would have no motive to lie to me about what happened to her son.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 04:53 AM     
  @telgar 2  
 
”Personally, my parents and about 30% of my brothers and sisters are mormons, the rest aren't. I still see my parents, and they don't care that the athiests and pagens in the family aren't mormon.”

- Again just your experience. But there are so many hundreds of accounts online of excommunication and the church coming between family members. Just because your relationship wasn’t all that bad doesn’t negate the claims of all these people. Sure you can claim that I’ve not been a Mormon so I don’t know. But when I read hundreds of accounts online that all seem to tie in with one another I find it hard to believe that these people all write in as one giant conspiracy against the LDS.

“Yeah, really. That's a new one on me. He never clained he could see through mountains. He did claim to have "magic" stones, but that was for translating the golden plates into the book of mormon.”

- Ah well as long as his claims were that his magic stones only had certain magical qualities, that makes it SO much more credible. I believe he used two stones to translate his book and had a third which he used to hunt for buried treasuer.

”His wife didn't believe he was a fraud, well she might of, but there isn't really any proof of that, so she must have kept that to her self. Now his friend who helped him translate (the guy in the scribe position)'s wife didn't believe his, and thought he was a fraud.”

- One of my previous links talks about 116 pages being stolen by his wife. She told him to re-translate them. He could not do this so he claimed the first batch was the work of Satan and his new translation was more accurate. But even so do you really think he had magic stones that translated Egyptian hieroglyphics?

“There is a way to baptize the dead with their permission?”

http://www.letusreason.org/...

- Is there a way to seek permission to baptize by proxy after death?

”But, yes, they do baptize in the name of the dead. They however don't count that as part of their numbers. I looked around the internet, and it seems that the 12 million number that was quoted is fairly accurate.”

- Yep I found that too. But does the rapid growth of a cult make it more valid?

”Their belief is that in baptizing in the name of the dead will give the dead the option of accepting jesus in heaven. Now mind you, they also belive that those dead that are baptized make their own choice if they want it or not, they just provide the dead with the option.”

- Are the dead asked before death or is it random?

Anyway this is all getting too silly, and it’s late. The bottom line here is that when you do a search it is quite surprising how many former Mormon stories you can find online. If the church is a wonderful great religion as you seem to be claiming it is astonishing how many horror stories have been posted online.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 04:54 AM     
  @telgar 3  
 
Out of interest, why did you leave?
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 04:54 AM     
  What a fantastic thread.  
 
It starts off with two mormons getting shot and ends up in the debunking of thier religion.

Personally, I've never read a religous book thats made sense.
 
  by: CrisW   01/06/2006 05:11 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
Ok, about the black people....

To quote your first source "From the first days of the Church (1830) until 1978 members who were of Hamitic or Black African descent were denied the blessings of the Priesthood."

I think you are misunderstanding the term priesthood. They were allowed in the church as members, they just couldn't, bless the sacrament, hold a position like a bishop or decon or priest. Which as I said before, is all bad, but they were allowed to be members of the church.

As for the peer pressure, I see where your coming from, but I'm pretty sure they had the same amount of pressure before they were allowed to hold the priesthood and after.

And honestly, if you are enough of a sheeple where peer pressure makes you join a church and worship a certain god, you would probably be joining anyways because you're that much of a sheeple.

"It’s called a tithing, usually mandated at 10% of your income"

It's not mandated, 10% is requested, if you donate nothing, 1% or 100% it is all the same, and you can stay a member all the same. Also nearly every religion asks their followers for cash...

"A woman’s status in the church is governed by the status of her husband, she cannot move up the ranks by herself."

That's not exactly true, women can hold many "ranks", but they can't hold the "ranks" within the priesthood. That is because women are not ordained with the priesthood. Much like other religions, like catholics, where the pope is a man, so are the priests and bishops. Women are the nuns.

"As for the women thing, name five prominent Mormon women who are single."

Do you want Mormon women who are famous and single (those are easy), or do you want 5 women who are high "ranking" single mormon women within the priesthood (which as I explained above is impossible)? I'm not really sure what you are shooting for there.

You know... there is an episode of southpark that explains the beginnings of the mormon religion pretty well, the general "feeling" I usually got from mormons, and they really didn't exagerate too much on it (and it's pretty damn funny too).
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 05:13 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
"hundreds of accounts online of excommunication and the church coming between family members"

True, very true, and I can't say what each persons reasoning is behind it, maybe they did get treated that way, or met up with bad people that are within the church. One thing to consider is that there are hundreds online saying how bad it is, but there are 12 million who didn't think it was a bad idea.

"One of my previous links talks about 116 pages being stolen by his wife."

Actually, it wasn't his wife, it was the wife of the man who was acting as the scribe while Smith translated.

"He could not do this so he claimed the first batch was the work of Satan and his new translation was more accurate."

Actually he claimed that god would not allow him to retranslate them again, and basically said "but hey, I got another story just like it".

Do I think he was a prophet? No. Do I believe? Hell No. Do I think they have a good moral system, for a religion? Yes.

As for the letusreason link, there are grains of truth in that, but there are also a lot that is exaggerated, or just plain misunderstood.

Like Hitler being baptised. He would never become a god of his own planet (which is another subject, but also taken out of context). Although he was baptized, he did not live a pure enough life to get to the highest level of heaven.

With the sealing to his wife though, that would be so they could be together.

I admit, it sounds crazy, insane, but hey, who are they harming by doing baptism for the dead.

I doubt the dead mind.


As for me leaving, I left because it wasn't for me. I never really bought into the whole religion thing even as a little kid. I always thought it was an organization, originally formed to keep the lower masses inline with a slight side effect of trying to make people be better to each other, and instead often end up causing them to be worse to each other.

I did however, try to keep some of the morals that they taught, like do unto others as you would have others do to you. Forgive. Help others when you can. Generally don't be a douchbag or asshole. Etc.

Had to drop some of the stuff though. Like the no alchol and caffine, that's just madness.
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 05:33 AM     
  When you get down to it...  
 
You can pick apart any religion.

I'm an Inactive Mormon, i still pay my tithe 100% and will probably continue to do so. I've had good fortunes and I do quite well with my money.

I busted out laughing when I read the part about some lady losing her son to Mormonism..lol... that's the most hilarious thing.

It's sad when someone takes something out of context and starts throwing in this and that to make an inaccurate statement to say the least.
I'm curious to how these exmormon sites actually get their knowledge, you ever think their knowledge is just fueled by their hatred towards the church and therefor they just might exaggerate the situation or I don't know...lie?
Anyway, the men who do choose to go on missions are courageous men and are only trying to spread the Word of God so to speak.

I didn't go on a mission, but the men and women who do go on a mission are good people. The missionaries give people something to think about and it's a positive message... and this can help people in their lives. So I applaud each and every missionary.
 
  by: hack   01/06/2006 01:03 PM     
  @hack  
 
“You can pick apart any religion.”

- Sure, but when it is a cult there is a lot more material.

”I'm an Inactive Mormon, i still pay my tithe 100% and will probably continue to do so. I've had good fortunes and I do quite well with my money.”

- So you still give 10% of your income to the ‘church.’ Amazing. So if you claim to be doing quite well with money let’s say you make $50,000, you give $5,000 PA to a cult that you claim to be an inactive member of.

I need to found my own cult. If only I had some magic stones.

”I busted out laughing when I read the part about some lady losing her son to Mormonism..lol... that's the most hilarious thing.”

- How ignorant of you. But hey if you find it amusing that a cult takes a once normal teenage son and drives a massive wedge between him and his family then you are clearly too immature for further discussion on that matter. You seem to think that just because your personal experiences have been reasonably insipid that the entire LDS movement must be the same. Well it’s not. There was a whole piece on talk radio the other day about some LDS villages near AZ which are being investigated for multiple accounts of polygamy, child abuse (sexual and physical) and various other horrendous situations. But I guess all that will have you ‘bust out’ laughing too. Just keep giving them money and close your mind to anything bad you hear. Good job.

”I'm curious to how these exmormon sites actually get their knowledge, you ever think their knowledge is just fueled by their hatred towards the church and therefor they just might exaggerate the situation or I don't know...lie?”

- People need motivation for such things. I think the Mormon Church is a disgusting cult, but I am not going to make up a bunch of lies and them pose as a former Mormon just to spew hatred on one of these sites. If you actually took the time to read them you would see that they are not just hate filled bile, they seem like genuine accounts together with dozens of posts agreeing with the sentiments or describing how their experience was similar or subtly different. In any case I don’t really see any validity to your logic where you choose to believe that they all must be lies from hate filled people.

“Anyway, the men who do choose to go on missions are courageous men and are only trying to spread the Word of God so to speak.”

- Half the time they are not brave men, they are young kids, not even old enough to drink. They go and live in isolation and poverty for two years under constant pressure to achieve sales figures. They give up relationships with family, friends, girlfriends. They give up further education or starting careers. All this just to bolster the numbers and get more people giving that all important tithing. It is nothing to do with God; this is about membership and money.

”I didn't go on a mission, but the men and women who do go on a mission are good people. The missionaries give people something to think about and it's a positive message... and this can help people in their lives. So I applaud each and every missionary.”

- Too bad that you feel like that. Maybe you should read some real accounts of those who went on missions, see what they have to say. Since you never went you clearly don’t know what it’s like. Well there are hundreds of accounts online, do the research.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 01:52 PM     
  @telgar 1/2  
 
“I think you are misunderstanding the term priesthood. They were allowed in the church as members, they just couldn't, bless the sacrament, hold a position like a bishop or decon or priest. Which as I said before, is all bad, but they were allowed to be members of the church.”

- Bottom line they were treated like second class citizens and the founders of Mormonism were racist, read the sources I gave you.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/...

Here is a list of further intolerance found in the BOM.

”It's not mandated, 10% is requested, if you donate nothing, 1% or 100% it is all the same, and you can stay a member all the same. Also nearly every religion asks their followers for cash...”

- Yes but in most religions a bowl is passed around. There is no specific dollar value requested, you can put in a dollar, a thousand dollars, or just pass the bowl along to the next person. A tithing is a totally different concept as you well know.

”That's not exactly true, women can hold many "ranks", but they can't hold the "ranks" within the priesthood.”

- Really? Single unmarried women? I’d be very surprised. All the accounts I read were to do with women who were married and their status was related to her husbands status. I think you are quite wrong and the posts I’ve read seem to agree with me on the various ex-mormon sites.

“That is because women are not ordained with the priesthood. Much like other religions, like catholics, where the pope is a man, so are the priests and bishops. Women are the nuns.”

- The argument ‘we discriminate just like everyone else’ is not much of an argument.

”True, very true, and I can't say what each persons reasoning is behind it, maybe they did get treated that way, or met up with bad people that are within the church. One thing to consider is that there are hundreds online saying how bad it is, but there are 12 million who didn't think it was a bad idea.”

- Sorry but that is just flawed logic. To assume that just because they claim to have 12 million members that all of them are 100% happy and have had no bad experiences is just absurd. Only a small percentage will be able to leave close knit Mormon communities. Half of the Mormon figure you quote don’t live in America any way. So clearly only a tiny fraction of those that are able to leave or actually leave are going to find some web site to write about it on.

”Actually he claimed that god would not allow him to retranslate them again, and basically said "but hey, I got another story just like it".”

- Yeah, weird because that’s the kind of lie I would make up if I were pretending to translate a book.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 02:08 PM     
  @telgar 2/2  
 
”Do I think he was a prophet? No. Do I believe? Hell No. Do I think they have a good moral system, for a religion? Yes.”

- Well then I suggest you read some more accounts from real people that were hurt by the cult. I certainly don’t see how this cult has better morals than any normal religion.

”I admit, it sounds crazy, insane, but hey, who are they harming by doing baptism for the dead. I doubt the dead mind.”

- Well they simply have no right to do it. I doubt the dead would ‘mind’ if I dig up their bodies looking for jewelry, but that doesn’t make it right.

”As for me leaving, I left because it wasn't for me. I never really bought into the whole religion thing even as a little kid. I always thought it was an organization, originally formed to keep the lower masses inline with a slight side effect of trying to make people be better to each other, and instead often end up causing them to be worse to each other.”

- Well now that I can agree with you on 100%!

”I did however, try to keep some of the morals that they taught, like do unto others as you would have others do to you. Forgive. Help others when you can. Generally don't be a douchbag or asshole. Etc.”

- Sure, but I am one of those people that feel that moral values are completely separate to religion. I am an Athiest, but I am nice to people not because I fear some divine retribution or punishment if I am not, but because I think it is the right thing to do.

”Had to drop some of the stuff though. Like the no alchol and caffine, that's just madness.”

- Yeah that is messed up. Noah made wine and was even drunk in the Bible, yet God thought he was Mr. Perfect. So I fail to see how or why some cult feels they can come along and ban people from drinking. But the bottom line is it is all about control.

Although I don’t agree with much of your comments, it was interesting reading your opinions. Glad you escaped.
 
  by: ZCT     01/06/2006 02:08 PM     
  Title is Misleading  
 
Only one mormon was shot to death. The other one lives.
 
  by: Reporter ©     01/06/2006 02:57 PM     
  Mormons Own  
 
Mormons OWN ALMOST ALL alcohol, caffine, and cigarette distributation places in utah .. half my family's history is mormons, since the beginning settlers of salt lake city.

(..yes I know, you can pick your friends, but you can't pick your relatives ..)

Coercion is a fact, and a first choice, well excercised tool, with this man made religion ..

they do insist on 10% of your wages .. they inquire into your income and tell you where you can cut back in order to give 10% ..

they do push their youth into missionary status, and if ya don't .. enuendos and snide remarks are often employed ...

I seen missionaries first-hand, tell couples that live together, if they wanted to be part of the church, and baptized into the church, that they had to either get married or live seperatly .. and then they'll help them figure out their finances for that 10% .. and then blessings will come .. HA!

so if ya give, they'll help = paid services!

YET mormons turn a blind eye to ..
"Render Unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, and Unto God, That which is God's"

Luke 20:21-26

ZCT you have a good head on your shoulders.
 
  by: SeventhGene   01/06/2006 06:54 PM     
  @seventh  
 
"Mormons OWN ALMOST ALL..."

They own almost all of Utah, not just the cigarette, liquor, etc. They own almost all the land, buisnesses, etc. But hey, when you have a state that is 90% mormons, that shouldn't really be a surprise.

@ZCT
"skepticsannotatedbible.com"

I did read the link, and I can see as I'm reading it that a lot of the quotes are taken heavily out of context... some aren't though.

"the founders of Mormonism were racist"

No arguement here, as I said before, it was all bad.

Ok, on to the women...

Utah was the 2nd state to grant women the right to vote (1870). The first state to actually have women vote was Utah. The 3rd to grant the right to women was Idaho, a heavily mormon state.

Here is a list of firsts, preformed by mormon women...

Martha Hughes Cannon - first woman elected as a state senator in the United States

Jean Westwood - first woman to serve as chairperson of the National Democratic Party

Ivy Baker Priest - U.S. Treasurer, whose signature appeared on U.S. currency from 1953 to 1961

Reva Beck Bosone - (1895 - 1983) first woman member of U.S. Congress from Utah

Ina Coolbrith - California's first poet laureatte

Cynthia Garner - first woman to appear on Fortune Magazine's cover

Paula Hawkins - first woman senator from Florida

Sarah Melissa Granger Kimball - (1818-1898) Early suffragist and women's rights activist

Kathleen Burton Clarke - in 2001 became the first woman director of the Bureau of Land Management

"The argument ‘we discriminate just like everyone else’ is not much of an argument."

Wasn't meant to be, I just think that if your gonna hate something, hate them with the facts.

"So clearly only a tiny fraction of those that are able to leave or actually leave are going to find some web site to write about it on."

So you want hundreds of testimonials to compare to your hundreds of testimonials? They are out there... and very easy to find, but I'm sure you would just call it a bias webpage, or pages, which may be true. Hell, I just ran other to google (and yes, I realise this isn't the greatest proof or arguement), and searched for mormon good and mormon bad, the mormon good gave me about twice as many hits at 1,660,000 vs 2,760,000.

"moral values are completely separate to religion."

Agreed, but it has been used as a tool to help promote moral values... personally I think it is better to be a good person, just to be one, than to be one for a better place in heaven.

"Yeah, weird because that’s the kind of lie I would make up if I were pretending to translate a book."

Agreed. Just think that you should hate them for the facts rather than hating them for what others have come up with.
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 09:34 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
"I doubt the dead would ‘mind’ if I dig up their bodies looking for jewelry, but that doesn’t make it right."

Well, I am sure I won't mind, so after I die, feel free to loot the corpse.

This is the same as someone who is religious praying for someone who isn't religious. And really, as long as they aren't harming anyone, who really cares.

On a side note, the potheads should be left alone for the same reason, they aren't harming anyone but themselves.

"Although I don’t agree with much of your comments"

Either do I... like I said, know who you hate. Same reason why I read up on most religions and cults.

"But hey if you find it amusing that a cult takes a once normal teenage son and drives a massive wedge between him and his family"

It takes two idiots or more to seperate a family like that. While the son probably isn't blameless, either is the other side of the family who let that happen.

Oh and I can't seem to find the comment now, but there was one about how mormons abuse minors, and have multiple wives...

On that subject, that is partially true. People in the name of mormonism have done these things, but the president of the church (similiar to the pope) has repeatedly said that this is wrong, and that it should not be practiced. And although they believe that their religion allows multiple wives, the US law does not, and that is one of their rules, "obey the law of the land".
 
  by: tellgar     01/06/2006 09:45 PM     
  @Reporter ©  
 
I noticed that also but your suppose to look the other way sir




 
  by: TheReporter     01/07/2006 02:48 AM     
 
 
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