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02/23/2006 04:10 PM ID: 53021 Permalink   

PETA Protests Small Town School

 

The Southern Kern Unified School District school located roughly 70 miles north of Los Angeles has come under fire from PETA for the castration of a pig during an agriculture class.

Some of the students were disturbed by the incident and one had even vomited during the procedure. PETA states they caught wind of this from some of the parents of the distressed students.

Rod Van Norman says that this is not likely since none of the complaints came from students's parents and he doesn't "know why they're picking on a little school district."

 
  Source: news.yahoo.com  
    WebReporter: juggalotoka Show Calling Card    
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  86 Comments
  
  Doesn't seem right  
 
Just because you grow up in a little hick town does not mean a school should be teaching a class on how to castrate a pig.

I may not be a farmer but it certainly doesn't seem reasonable to tie up a creature and cut off its’ balls without anesthetic. Further, to demonstrate this barbaric behavior to a bunch of kids in lieu of a real education seems even worse.

In reading the story in various sources earlier today it seems that the hicks in question are arguing that it is part of rural farming life and a necessary skill to be taught to the little hick children. Well sorry but if these kids were given a real education they might actually be able to leave their sad little hick town and get a real job earning real money instead of toiling on a farm for the rest of their lives. Education in some of these rural areas is in a sorry state, which is little wonder if brutalizing a pig is considered a reasonable and useful part of a biology class.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 05:05 PM     
  Its Sick  
 
I think its sick the way some people treat animals, people forget they are not much different from us, we are just monkeys who think and talk.
 
  by: Mahap   02/23/2006 05:09 PM     
  Hmmm...  
 
While you seem to have a dislike for it, some people actually like a rural life and love farming as a means of income and way of life. Also, please define 'real job'.
 
  by: StarShadow     02/23/2006 05:15 PM     
  Personally  
 
F**k PETA. Whats the deal with these 100 points I got today, are they used fror anything worth while, or just "yay I have points that mena nothing."
 
  by: juggalotoka   02/23/2006 05:27 PM     
  Alreaady up for it  
 
I assuem the pig was already up for castration so it doesn't hurt to make a lesson out of it.

If, on the other hand, the pig was castrated for the sole reason of the lesson then I would think it wrong.
 
  by: vgslag   02/23/2006 05:31 PM     
  @StarShadow  
 
Okay let me clarify. A hick school teaching kids how to castrate a pig is providing a very basic education and pretty much making certain decisions about the future of those children. Like it or not these kids could easily end up trapped in the rural life because their inadequate education closes doors to certain jobs in metropolitan areas and also closes doors to higher education.

So I am arguing that schools all over America need to focus on providing a top quality education giving the kids a broad knowledge base that will enable them to seek all kinds of employment or education opportunities in the future both in their community and outside.

Skills such as brutalizing an animal can be taught outside of school in a community farming college or simply as hands on training after the kid finishes school.

The impression I get when I read about this being part of a biology lesson is the fact that the adults teaching these kids have already decided that the rural farming life is their only path in life. By limiting their education in this manner it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Now if the school in question had already provided an outstanding broad based education and was simply adding additional useful farming information then I guess an OPTIONAL class such as this might be acceptable. But I am willing to bet a sizable amount of money that any school that considers this an acceptable biology lesson falls well below the national standards of education.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 05:40 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Ive been out of the school system for a bout 5 years now and that class that this woul dhav been taught in (AG Science) is an optional science credit in most schools.

NOW WILL SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THESE POINTS ARE USED FOR DAMNIT!
 
  by: juggalotoka   02/23/2006 05:57 PM     
  @juggalotoka  
 
First off the points don't get you anything. If you collect enough of them you can work your way up the high score table. But there are no prizes or any real reason to collect them.

I still don't believe this sounds like an appropriate class for a regular school to teach, optional or not. The state of the American education system is really piss poor. We are the richest country in the world and yet get our asses kicked soundly when it comes to international studies of general knowledge and measures of education. I therefore conclude that a pig abuse class should come pretty far down the list of priorities right now. If America's public education system were the envy of the world and our students were the brightest and most well rounded people, (and I don't mean fat!) then sure optional classes like this might be a next step. But from all the evidence I see we are not even getting the basics right at the moment, especially in Southern and rural America. You only have to look at our literacy rate compared to other countries.

So let's make sure the basics are being covered in a world beating way before looking at how to mutilate a pig as a school class.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 06:09 PM     
  @ZCT @Mahap  
 
Okay, guys. Apparently, you've never lived on farm or ranch; if you had, you would know that castration is an important skill for the lifestyle at hand.
Castration is important for the safety and health of the animal. Left unchecked, the animal could possibly impregnate one of its sisters, causing mutations. Also, without castration, the pig could develop into an aggressive boar and could hurt itself or another animal in fighting.

Think about it.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/23/2006 06:11 PM     
  @ ZCT @ Mahap  
 
Apparently, neither one of you have lived on a farm or ranch. Castration is important to the health of the animal. Without castration, the animal could develop into an aggressive adult and injure itself, another animal or a human. Also, left unchecked, an uncastrated animal could possibly impregnate one of its sisters, causing genetic mutations. The castration also helps prevent infection.

It's not cruelty, it's safety.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/23/2006 06:14 PM     
  crap  
 
i thought it got erased
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/23/2006 06:14 PM     
  Perfectly Normal  
 
First of all this is a High school class. Second it is an elective agriculture class. Few farmers will graduate high school and go to college. Therefore high school would be the time to teach them. Most people who take elective agriculture classes want or have some interest in becoming a farmer. This subject is necessary for farming hence it should be taught.
 
  by: psuchad   02/23/2006 06:25 PM     
  @vanillaskye  
 
Well I don't think general knowledge or simple common sense are skills that can only be established by living on a farm. Frankly it is a rather tiresome argument to imply that without personally living on a farm one cannot form a worthwhile opinion on the matter.

Of course I understand the need to castrate an animal. However my questions are:

1) Do public schools need to be teaching this, when they are so far failing in areas as fundamental as reading, writing and simple arithmetic?
2) Isn't this a form a specialized training for farming based community colleges, or simply on the job training?
3) Isn't it completely barbaric to do this to an animal without any anesthetic or pain management?
4) Is it really acceptable for some child who once saw a demonstration in a high school class to be mutilating animals without any kind of proper veterinary training or supervision?
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 06:26 PM     
  According to the teacher  
 
there was no vomit nor were there any complaints to her. Only PETA had a problem.
 
  by: walter3ca   02/23/2006 06:35 PM     
  Wow...  
 
Ok, first, your siding with PETA, a terrorist organization. These people are scumbags.

Second, it never says where this happened. I doubt it happened at school. It probably happened at a farm in the area. Basically a field trip. If the kids didn't want to see this, they shouldn't have went on the field trip. Personally, on all the field trips I went on in school I knew where we were going ahead of time, and basically what we were gonna see.

Third, It's ok to castrate the pigs we raise for food. Sorry, but when you get down to it, that pig probably would have died long ago if we weren't raising it for food. If it was just some guy wandering around castrating wild pigs, I would agree with you, not cool, but they are born and raised to be our food. It also makes the pig taste better.

Also pigs are nasty creatures, really mean. Castrating them makes them not nearly as mean, so yeah, we stop farmers from getting hurt by castrating them. Given the choice between a farmer getting hurt and a pig getting castrated, I choose the pig every time.
 
  by: tellgar     02/23/2006 06:35 PM     
  @psuchad  
 
“First of all this is a High school class.”

- I think we’ve already established this.

“Second it is an elective agriculture class.”

- Okay.

“Few farmers will graduate high school and go to college.”

- This may be a cultural problem. These kids have been taught that their life will be farming so they don’t bother to get an education which could ultimately trap them in this kind of career for life.

“Therefore high school would be the time to teach them.”

- Well you could start making this argument about almost any vocation, by the time you are done you are teaching such a wide range of skill sets you will fail to do any of them correctly. I don’t believe that the public education system is currently providing an adequate basic education. If you don’t believe me just do some research on the subject. So therefore I am arguing that until the basics are being taught well, elective classes such as these are not appropriate.

“Most people who take elective agriculture classes want or have some interest in becoming a farmer. This subject is necessary for farming hence it should be taught.”

- These are children. By the same argument you should be teaching eight year olds how to become astronauts or firemen. Children need to be given a basic foundation from which all future learning will be built. Even if these kids stay in a rural area and farm for their entire lives, their education should have given them the important basics such as reading, writing and arithmetic. From the figures I’ve seen of rural areas and the South the literacy rate alone is shocking. So the resources that fuel elective classes such as how to castrate a pig, could be better directed into how to make sure that 100% of the educationally able students that leave school can read and write.

Get the basics right, leave vocational training to community farming colleges and similar institutions. There is simply no way that one lesson on castrating a pig is going to give a child the adequate training to do this humanely in the real world. To teach this skill in high school just does not do it justice and shows a complete lack of regard for animals. It is also a waste of valuable resources the school could better spend elsewhere.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 06:37 PM     
  @ ZCT  
 
I'll just say I agree with psuchad. I don't really feel like arguing today. I have the flu.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/23/2006 06:38 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
I should think you like food, correct? Yeah. Who grows the food you eat every day? Farmers.
Who raises the cattle that go into that oh-so-tempting McFatBurger you like to eat? Ranchers.

Don't talk to me about being "trapped" in an occupation.

Also, these kids aren't really children. They're in high school. Yes, they're minors, but that doesn't mean they can't think like adults.

Pull your head out and think before you talk next time. Jesus.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/23/2006 06:42 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Oh and the anesthetic, it's a huge waste of time. If a farmer has any real number of pigs (100+), he would have to go through so much extra work, time, and money, to do this to all the pigs.

It seems harsh, but they are food.
 
  by: tellgar     02/23/2006 06:51 PM     
  @juggalotoka  
 
There is an "FAQs" tab on the homepage if you have questions. Read this:

http://www.shortnews.com/...

And this:

http://www.shortnews.com/...
 
  by: lurker     02/23/2006 07:13 PM     
  Not news.  
 
ZCT, I distinctly remember you saying you were moving on from this site. What happened?

I don't see what the big deal is. This is only news because PETA caught wind of it this time. I'm sure fixing farm animals has been a part of ag classes for ages, be it in a high school elective class, 4H, votech, etc. Young adults(which is what they are, don't kid yourself) taking ag electives in high school are there because they probably have an interest in farming. Believe it or not, but a lot of people are attracted to farming as an occupation. Just because it may not pay as well or have the prestige as other lines of work does not make it inferior. We need farmers just as much as we need architects.

Using terms like hick town, hick children, hick school are an insult to the farming communities of this country. Farming is a real, necessary occupation, and while I may not agree with our government propping up failing farms, there are plenty that do just fine and will continue to be a major part of this country's economy for a long time to come.
 
  by: ezanto   02/23/2006 07:19 PM     
  @vanillaskye  
 
“I should think you like food, correct? Yeah. Who grows the food you eat every day? Farmers.
Who raises the cattle that go into that oh-so-tempting McFatBurger you like to eat? Ranchers.”

- Well that’s just amazing. Thank you for that insightful comment. However ignoring your statements of the obvious for a moment, how does that justify anything? Simply because the food I eat is produced by farmer and ranchers does not mean I should never question any of their ethics or work practice. I like to buy clothes too, but that doesn’t mean I should not be cognizant of the fact that some clothes are made by children in third world sweatshops. I would certainly use my personal consumer power to try and avoid supporting this kind of behavior.

I know plenty of farmers, and I’ve never met a lazy one. Both in England and here in the States I work in fairly rural areas and many of my patients are farmers who have damaged their hearing through years of industrial noise. But again none of this means I should never question any of their methods.

”Don't talk to me about being "trapped" in an occupation.”

- Many people are. If they are raised a certain way and not educated properly there will be many avenues closed to them, it’s a legitimate point. Other than being confrontational and irrational I don’t see what point you are trying to make with this statement.

”Also, these kids aren't really children. They're in high school. Yes, they're minors, but that doesn't mean they can't think like adults.”

- If that were the case there would not be 23 states that still sanction the paddling of these ‘young adults.’ If they could think just like adults then the age of majority would be lowered to 14 or 16. Heck we don’t even let Americans buy beer before they are 21, so let’s not pretend that we treat young people in America like adults.

”Pull your head out and think before you talk next time. Jesus.”

- My name is Chris, not Jesus. Just because you disagree with my point of view doesn’t make it wrong. I’m sorry you find it so challenging to have a discussion with someone who thinks a little differently than you do.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 07:43 PM     
  @ezanto  
 
“ZCT, I distinctly remember you saying you were moving on from this site. What happened?”

- Don’t recall ever making such a statement, but feel free to find it and quote me. Unlike you I have contributed to this site, writing over 300 news stories and commenting on over 2000 more, which gives points to those who also contribute to this site. Maybe you should consider contributing yourself some time.

”I don't see what the big deal is. This is only news because PETA caught wind of it this time. I'm sure fixing farm animals has been a part of ag classes for ages, be it in a high school elective class, 4H, votech, etc. Young adults(which is what they are, don't kid yourself) taking ag electives in high school are there because they probably have an interest in farming. Believe it or not, but a lot of people are attracted to farming as an occupation. Just because it may not pay as well or have the prestige as other lines of work does not make it inferior. We need farmers just as much as we need architects.”

- My point, which I appear to need to reiterate again is this: Schools in America are failing. Adult literacy and other indicators of good education are not great. So I am simply suggesting that high schools should concentrate on getting the basics right. Once this is done the students leaving high school will have a broad education base and the ability to learn more things, including farming techniques that can be taught in community farming colleges and other vocation based training. So while I accept the need for farmers, I just believe that students should be taught the basics very well so that they will have as many doors as possible open to them in the future.

It is also a valid point to question animal cruelty. Just because certain things are tradition and simply because farmers do things a certain way doesn’t make it right. It wasn’t so long ago that farmers used slaves and indentured servants on their farms and plantations. Even today farmers often use illegal immigrants as cheap and expendable labor with little or no rights to do the menial jobs that Americans don’t seem to want to do. So it would be a misnomer to believe that the non-farming community should never question their methods.

The impression I get is that many kids from farming communities, and I’ve met many, are raised to believe that farming will be their future. The schools bias the education to that way of thinking, and as a result certain avenues become closed to these children (or young adults). All I’m arguing for is a quality education, that’s all.

”Using terms like hick town, hick children, hick school are an insult to the farming communities of this country. Farming is a real, necessary occupation, and while I may not agree with our government propping up failing farms, there are plenty that do just fine and will continue to be a major part of this country's economy for a long time to come.”

- I agree using such terms was derogatory, and perhaps was ill-advised. However it was to express the mentality behind some of these communities where education suffers in favor of teaching a single skill area which may prevent a child from doing something outside of that field or community in the future.

I apologize for my use of the term hick.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 07:55 PM     
  @ ZCT  
 
I don't find it challenging, I just don't think it's worth my time anymore.

And frankly, I don't give a flying f**k what your name is.

I have the flu. I don't really care anymore, because obviously, you're so hell-bent on changing everyone else's opinion that you can't even see when to just stop--no one else cares.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/23/2006 08:29 PM     
  @ZCT @ Vanillaskye  
 
Well, thanks for entertaining the rest of us! ;)
 
  by: theironboard     02/23/2006 08:55 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
I assume you know how electives work - in most high schools, you take a set of core units, plus 2 or 3 elective classes. The choices in electives are entirely up to the student.

You're painting this as sacrificing core education to teach one-off skills. It is not. Those core classes are still being taught, and will always be taught - no school could justify taking them out of the curriculum.

AG Science is not just about farming, but all facets of animal husbandry and agriculture. Some people take ag science as a prelude to genetics in college. Some take it because they have an interest in being a vet. Some take it because they think it will be easier and worth the same credit. It doesnt matter why, it's the students choice. As a non-compulsory, non-core subject I don't see where it would be any business of yours what they choose to learn.
 
  by: lauriesman     02/23/2006 09:34 PM     
  PETA is retarded  
 
I was going to type up a long resonce but I think I will just sum it up like this [deleted] I don't understand why PETA gets a raging **** **over some thing that happens millions of times a year on farms all over the world.

If these kids choose to take an optional elective (Ag studies) why can't they see what happens on a real farm. If the did't that would be like taking phys ed in a classroom.
 
  by: HighTeckRedNeck   02/23/2006 09:49 PM     
  @vanillaskye  
 
“I don't find it challenging, I just don't think it's worth my time anymore. And frankly, I don't give a flying f**k what your name is.”

- Well I guess you found it more challenging than you thought because it was clearly a joke based on one of your badly written sentences. Not to worry.

”I have the flu. I don't really care anymore, because obviously, you're so hell-bent on changing everyone else's opinion that you can't even see when to just stop--no one else cares.”

- I hope that when you are not sick you are a little more open minded to discussing issues. The world is not a black and white place there are lots of shades of gray. I don’t quite understand why you feel the need to become so hostile when someone questions your opinion.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 10:25 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Not much more I can say that has not already been said, really. This is not an issue of education being sacrificed, as this is an elective. Even fewer people will go into music or art as a profession, yet we champion these electives though they could be learned in conservatories anywhere in the country. If you are so much for a comprehensive base to public education, then there is no sense in being against an elective course. There is nothing here to indicate that their education suffers for it, and such courses are certainly nothing new. No matter how much you obviously dislike these "hick" towns and think you know what is best for their children, such a course WILL be valuable to many of them.

Regarding the subject matter, I see nothing objectionable here. What was shown was a common procedure in agriculture in a class on agriculture. Somehow, I am not shocked by the offering nor PETA's ability to make a pest of itself about it. If you want to argue the practice is inhumane, go ahead. We dehorned our dairy calves with hot irons, and the only consolation to one who questioned the ethics of that was that it was less painful (because nerves were quickly killed) than having to cut them out later in the animal's life. I may not completely agree with these practices, but they are common in the field, and this is no fault of the school who merely demonstrates one in a class on that field.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     02/23/2006 10:32 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
“I assume you know how electives work - in most high schools, you take a set of core units, plus 2 or 3 elective classes. The choices in electives are entirely up to the student.”

- Are you explaining the intricacies of the American education system to me, because I though you lived in Australia. Have you ever attended a rural American high school?

”You're painting this as sacrificing core education to teach one-off skills. It is not. Those core classes are still being taught, and will always be taught - no school could justify taking them out of the curriculum.”

- No that’s not what I am saying. What I am saying is that American education sucks. Go look up the adult literacy levels in the rural South, basic science or math. Please go do it now and report back to us. I’ve checked and the figures I’ve seen scare the crap out of me. So my argument, which I thought I had made rather clear by now, is that schools are failing to get the basics right. Let’s get these basics right first, then think about electives involving cutting off pig testicles.

”AG Science is not just about farming, but all facets of animal husbandry and agriculture. Some people take ag science as a prelude to genetics in college. Some take it because they have an interest in being a vet. Some take it because they think it will be easier and worth the same credit. It doesnt matter why, it's the students choice. As a non-compulsory, non-core subject I don't see where it would be any business of yours what they choose to learn.”

- Well frankly it’s no business of either of us if you really think about it, especially with you not even living here. But the bottom line is I care about humane treatment of animals and I don’t think this brutalizing of a pig in front of children has any real educational value beyond how to torture an animal, which they can probably learn on their own time.

At the core of my argument is (1) giving Americans a better education and (2) treating animals in a humane manner. I don’t see why either of these points causes so much offense. I know people like you think that animals are just placed on Earth by God for our amusement and exploitation but I don’t accept that as an excuse for the wholesale abuse and torture of living creatures. It’s not too much to ask to be a little more humane.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 10:33 PM     
  @MomentOfClarity  
 
Not much I can reply that I have not already said.

Trust me I don't dislike 'hick' towns I just feel sorry for the kids who are raised there who are often denied good education and their futures are decided for them in many respects.

I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning barbaric treatment of animals. Such questions have reduced some of the most horrific abuses of animals over the past few decades, but there is still a way to go. Tradition does not make torture of animals right, no matter how convenient it might be for humans to behave in this manner.

I'm not even really an animal rights kind of person, PETA pisses me off, and I eat meat just like anyone else. But I am mindful of some of the exploitation of animals, and I happen to think that cutting off an animals balls without some kind of pain management is out and out torture, and therefore wrong. But hey we're still torturing humans, so I guess no one is going to give a shit about some dumb animals.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 10:40 PM     
  @moment and ZCT  
 
not much more i can say either that has not already been said. um... i guess that's it then. okay, bye.
 
  by: manilaryce     02/23/2006 11:29 PM     
  Castration is real life  
 
So is a wolf eating a pig. Ok, your a pig, now choose eaten by wolf or castration. We eat pigs. Sure we could give them pain killers but what is funny about that is it TAINTS the meat with Chemicals. They CAN'T give the pig painkillers.

Peta's mission is to turn the entire world into disney's movie Bambi. The source also doens't say the age of these children, is this elementary or high school? I knew a girl in highschool who puked because I ate a burger. My grandfather raises cattle, my father has castrated a bull. If it ment feeding my children I would do it. It does mean feeding your children, this is something that must be done for the food supply.
 
  by: ericcode   02/23/2006 11:41 PM     
  @manilaryce  
 
Indeed :P
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 11:44 PM     
  it was their choice  
 
to go pick that class and stay in the classroom. if you can't handle it, don't go to class, but you're going to have to face it one day anyways. peta is sham, they are hypocrits. the president of peta is a diabetic, yet the insulin she receives would not be possible without animal testing.
 
  by: moon118   02/23/2006 11:48 PM     
  @ericcode  
 
So you are saying with all the technology we have on this planet there is no way to humanely castrate a pig? I'd have to see some proof to believe that.

As for the law of nature argument, sure. Nature is a bitch. I'm damn sure being eaten by a predator can't be much fun. But humans are supposed to be better than that, and the reality is we have exploited the environment and animals for centuries. However as we advance as humans it's about time we started to show a little more compassion for those people and animals who are less fortunate than we are. Where there's a will there's a way.

In this case people would rather brand all those who believe in humane treatment of animals into some left wing tree hugging PETA sucking conspiracy group so they don't have to actually think about the issues and consider their own moral code for a moment.
 
  by: ZCT     02/23/2006 11:50 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
I simply contend that your anger is misplaced. I agree there is plenty of justification in attacking the practices in question. I disagree that there is any justification in attacking the teachers, school, or town involved. They merely taught, as an elective, the basics of agriculture. I do not think that most people here are responding so negatively to your defense of treating animals humanely, but rather the extremely negative way you entered this topic with guns blazing - my two cents.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     02/24/2006 12:08 AM     
  Seems OK to me, up to a point  
 
1. This is a small community in an agricultural area.
2. If you have your dog or cat spayed or neutered at the vets, they do not get anaesthetic, unless you pay extra for it.
3. PETA is a GOOD organization: "People whe Enjoy Tasting Animals". Animals (Cattle, hogs, chickens, whatever) have been castrated since prehistory without the benefit of anaesthetic. It is arguably unnecessary. I sure would not want it done to me, though.
4. As far as demonstrating in the classroom (or field trip), is that not what learning is about? Or, don't you eat? Perhaps folks feel that learning is only about reading writing and arithmetic (Or is it cultural studies, racial awareness, underwater basketweaving, the art of kidding youself, or drama for aspiring drama queens?). Most people think kids ought to be learning something useful. Some high schools have ROP programs involving construction, automotive repair, or animal husbandry. Not everyone wants to be a journalist (thank goodness) or a lawyer (double thank goodness). The points previously made about the desirability of castrating hogs are well made.
 
  by: LeePIII   02/24/2006 12:16 AM     
  @moon  
 
When I took the ag elective in my high school (needed a credit - that it was an easy one given my farm upbringing was a bonus), we were shown a video of a bovine slaughter and processing. We had to get our parents to sign consents, and were given the option to leave if we desired. Maybe these administrators did not notify the parents or warn the students ahead of time, but I doubt it, and so I doubt the claim of clueless, distressed students and shocked parents after the fact. I really smell a rat here.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     02/24/2006 12:24 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
Do you practice being insulting and offensive in front of a mirror, or is it just a natural gift you have?

The problem you have is that you cannot just make a point, you have to be insulting or offensive about it. If you could have, and just stuck to "Standard American education is so poor ot be scary", and "castration is inhumane" and been clear about it, you'd probably find that fewer people would have a problem. Instead, you attacked rural communities (some of us were born and raised rural, btw). Not satisfied with insulting rural life, you proceed to insult each member on here, pretty much in turn. Like I said, I don't know if you really intend to do that, or if you are incapable of saying something in an inoffensive manner.

Now to me:

1. I know a bit about the American education system, I understand the process of electives and core classes, which largely mirror those of the UK and Australia. It shouldn't be surprising as it makes sense ot handle things this way.

2. Educational standards are dropping in the US, the UK, and Australia. This isn't a problem limited to the US in any way,nor is it relative to where the students are taught. If you look at school performance, you'll find that pretty much all public schools perform about the same for their education level. Private schools are another matter.

3. Castration is a humane option for male pigs raised for their meat. These pigs will never mate, and the added aggresiveness and anti-social behavior that male pigs naturally exhibit can lead them to severely injure themselves or another pig, which in turn may lead to the pig being put down.

4. Castration is 'relatively' painless and quick, involving a quick incission, the removal of the testical, and the terminating of the associated blood vessel. Each testical is removed separately. It is not a complete removal of the scrotum. The incision is closed with surgical thread, and the area bathed in anti-bacterial.

5. I happen to believe very strongly in the rights of animals, just as my fiance does. However, in this case where the animal is destined never to mate, but to be slaughtered for meat, it is humane and advantageous for the pig to be castrated.

You really owe me, and a lot of people, an apology.
 
  by: lauriesman     02/24/2006 02:23 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
I commend you.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/24/2006 03:14 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
So, after all of these annoying paragraphs I've read, I come to the conclusion that what you are saying is, "We should stop teaching Physical Education, Music Appreciation, Band, Sports, Drivers Ed, Agricultural Mechanics, Health, and maybe even Biology".... That stuff should be saved until college right? When all of these "young adults" have finally learned to read, write, and do math? Why learn how to play football? Why learn to drive when you cant read the road signs? Why learn how to stop the spread of STD's? Yeah... I see your point completely. </soapbox>
 
  by: TheChanPerv   02/24/2006 03:22 AM     
  @MomentOfClarity  
 
“I simply contend that your anger is misplaced.”

- I think you mistake disagreement and a strong opinion with anger. I don’t think as far as I can remember I have ever posted in anger. Short News is just an amusing diversion to me where I occasionally spout an opinion and challenge those with some retarded dogma to see if they have any real intelligence behind their opinion or if they are just regurgitating things they’ve been told.

“I agree there is plenty of justification in attacking the practices in question.”

- Yep.

“I disagree that there is any justification in attacking the teachers, school, or town involved. They merely taught, as an elective, the basics of agriculture.”

- Well much of my opinion was an ideal world kind of scenario anyway. But I’m not sure the basics of agriculture requires a real life demonstration of an animal castration. This would be like having a couple come in and have sex with each other as part of a sex education class.

“I do not think that most people here are responding so negatively to your defense of treating animals humanely, but rather the extremely negative way you entered this topic with guns blazing - my two cents.”

- Yeah, you are probably right. Sometimes I like to push buttons to see who has an intelligent point to make. My initial verbiage was inflammatory and provocative, you got me. But don’t mistake deliberate pushing of buttons with a hapless social ineptitude or a behavior you need to point out. There is a thought process behind what I write.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 06:19 AM     
  @TheChanPerv  
 
It’s almost that simple, yes. When I see some of the failures of education in this country I wonder why there is so much time and money spent on sport stadiums, field trips, extra curricular activities, and so on. I believe that in America people expect a little too much of the high school system. It seems to be relied upon for social events, clubs, hobbies, entertainment and various other things not related to basic educational requirements. When 11% of Americans cannot identify America on a map of the world I question whether the education system has done a great job. I do believe that music appreciation, band, sports, drivers ed, and agricultural mechanics should take a back seat to the fundamental requirements of an education. Again I reiterate my comments that once the education system is consistently turning out students who can read, write, do basic math, understand basic science, and can do this in an internationally competitive way, that would be the time to add all kinds of wonderful extra classes that may even include torturing a pig. But we are not yet at that point. So the money spent on all this extra curricular stuff needs to be redirected to the basics first to get that right, before it is used for other purposes.

As for your comments about college, I am under no illusions that wannabe farmers are going to get a degree in Agricultural studies. I am simply talking about high school graduates taking some classes in agricultural community colleges to learn certain farming specific skills once they have learned the basics in a high school setting. I just don’t think it is a necessary part of the high school mission to teach kids how to castrate a pig.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 06:34 AM     
  @lauriesman 1/2  
 
“Do you practice being insulting and offensive in front of a mirror, or is it just a natural gift you have?”

- I’ll answer that question only if you promise not to tell anyone.

”The problem you have is that you cannot just make a point, you have to be insulting or offensive about it. If you could have, and just stuck to "Standard American education is so poor ot be scary", and "castration is inhumane" and been clear about it, you'd probably find that fewer people would have a problem.”

- I don’t really care who has a problem. I am making a point and if that ruffles some feathers and makes people think then that’s great. I am always intrigued (but usually disappointed) to see if someone has an intelligent rebuttal. I accept that some of my statements are inflammatory, but I want to provoke a reaction sometimes.

“Instead, you attacked rural communities (some of us were born and raised rural, btw). Not satisfied with insulting rural life, you proceed to insult each member on here, pretty much in turn.”

- I too grew up in a rural community. Some of my friends in school were farmers (or children of farmers) and I attended a school with a fairly rural theme. As to insults, hardly, I simply pointed out some incongruousness in what people said.

“Like I said, I don't know if you really intend to do that, or if you are incapable of saying something in an inoffensive manner. “

- I think you know the answer to that, you are just being glib.

”1. I know a bit about the American education system, I understand the process of electives and core classes, which largely mirror those of the UK and Australia. It shouldn't be surprising as it makes sense ot handle things this way.”

- Well you just compared the US system to the UK system when it is radically different. So I have to question your other suppositions.

”2. Educational standards are dropping in the US, the UK, and Australia. This isn't a problem limited to the US in any way,nor is it relative to where the students are taught. If you look at school performance, you'll find that pretty much all public schools perform about the same for their education level. Private schools are another matter.”

- Well let’s assume that is true. The correct course of action is to spend the available resources on the core education requirements, which doesn’t really include castrating a pig. All fringe activities should be curtailed in order to shore up the rest, what some like to call the three ‘Rs.’
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 06:57 AM     
  @lauriesman 2/2  
 
”Castration is a humane option for male pigs raised for their meat.”

- So you think that a mammal, would feel no pain when its’ scrotum is sliced open and his testicles cut out? What makes you think that pig testicles are any less sensitive than yours? That is just an absurd statement.

“These pigs will never mate, and the added aggresiveness and anti-social behavior that male pigs naturally exhibit can lead them to severely injure themselves or another pig, which in turn may lead to the pig being put down.”

- Well these are all products of our imprisoning these animals for slaughter. But I don’t deny the need to castrate them at all.

”Castration is 'relatively' painless and quick, involving a quick incission, the removal of the testical, and the terminating of the associated blood vessel. Each testical is removed separately. It is not a complete removal of the scrotum. The incision is closed with surgical thread, and the area bathed in anti-bacterial.”

- That is one of the most bizarre statements I’ve ever seen you make. What possible evidence do you have to assess the pain of slicing open a scrotum and cutting out testicles? Even on a ‘relative’ scale I don’t see how you can make such a statement.

”I happen to believe very strongly in the rights of animals, just as my fiance does. However, in this case where the animal is destined never to mate, but to be slaughtered for meat, it is humane and advantageous for the pig to be castrated.”

- I’m pleased that you make that statement but question it’s authenticity. If you really think that you can take an animal, tie it so it is completely immobile, slice open its’ scrotum, cut out its’ testicles, and let it continue on its’ way without a considerable amount of suffering, then you lack imagination. There is no reason to believe that such a procedure is any less painful for a pig than a human being. Even if it were only half as painful, it still seems like a lot. I am not suggesting we stop the practice, I am just raising the question as to whether there is a more humane way to do it. Astonishingly those posting on here from the ‘rural’ camp are remarkably unwilling to even consider that anything they are doing to animals is harmful or cruel. That’s an awfully arrogant stance to be taking quite frankly.

”You really owe me, and a lot of people, an apology.”

- Oh please, if I ever unloaded on someone that might be the case. But you have never seen me do that on this web site. At best I have been a little caustic with some people to make an important point. You have made some pretty offensive statements yourself on Short News including likening homosexuals to pedophiles. So let’s not go down that road.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 06:57 AM     
  @LeePIII  
 
"If you have your dog or cat spayed or neutered at the vets, they do not get anaesthetic, unless you pay extra for it."

- I don't know where you live, but I live in Hicksville Tennessee, and I have never known a vet in this area offer castration of a family pet without anesthetic. No vet has ever offered me a discount if I opted not to anesthetize my pets.

But maybe things are different where you live. Maybe you can direct us to a web site of a vet who offers a discount for a more painful castration?
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 07:02 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
I'm not touching most of this... too much to comment on.

I just gotta say that this statement is a little off "The correct course of action is to spend the available resources on the core education requirements"

While I agree with you that it is the correct course of action, watching a farmer castrate his pig probably doesn't cost anything. We are also talking about a very rural area, most likely the field trip wasn't a day trip or a bus ride, it was probably a block or two away and they walked. Also the process of castrating a pid doesn't take very long. So there was very little time or resources spend on that.
 
  by: tellgar     02/24/2006 07:41 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
I don't give a shit if you think you've been offensive or not. I'm telling you - YOU HAVE BEEN.

1. Pigs are castrated at 2-3 weeks, the piglet (more correct) is held upside, the scrotal area is wiped with alcohol, a tiny incision, maybe 1cm across, is made on one side of the scrotum with a sharp scalpel - this is a little painful for the piglet, but not hugely so. The scrotum is gently pressed so that testical pops out of hte incision, and it is quickly and cleanly snipped off. The blood vessel is terminated, and the tiny incision is sewn back up.

It is NOT some hugely painful operation, and it is relatively quick - given a clean operation, and no infection, the piglet will be completely recovered in one to two days.

It will then grow to adulthood with a lot less stress, and less likely hood of severely injuring itself or another pig.

The reason you 'don't see how i could make such a statement' is that you have never witnessed it done, and never held the piglet while it was done. If you had, you would understand that there is relatively little stress involved for the piglet, and that it is an exceptionally quick and efficient operation.

I tell you what, seeing as you live in 'Hicksville' - how about you go down to one of your local farms, and ask whats involved, and maybe observe a piglet being castrated. Then you might be.. oh I don't know.. informed? on the issue.

At least in this case, I'm speaking from experience.
 
  by: lauriesman     02/24/2006 08:23 AM     
  @ZCT2  
 
And I never claimed that:

'So you think that a mammal, would feel no pain when its’ scrotum is sliced open and his testicles cut out?'

I said it was HUMANE, not PAINLESS. There is a big difference. In this case, humane means 'a little pain now, saving a lot of pain, stress and anxiety later'.

You're 'points' (what there are of them, and such that they are) are not 'ruffling feathers' its your being insulting and offensive along with it. Let me quote you:

'I know people like you think that animals are just placed on Earth by God for our amusement and exploitation'

Hello?? What gives you the right to insult me like that - and I'm f*cking insulted. I'll say it again, YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY. My fiancee and I are both lovers of animals, and strong believers in the rights of all animals.

We might actually get an intelligent debate going, if you could learn to argue the point, and not insult everyone every second paragraph.
 
  by: lauriesman     02/24/2006 08:32 AM     
  I hate Peta  
 
But I wouldnt want my kid watching a live castration...
 
  by: koultunami     02/24/2006 01:07 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
What a lovely post, full of cuss words, very amusing.

I don't care if you have personally torn the beating heart out of a piglet, you still don't know what it feels like to be the piglet.

Generally speaking animals do all they can to hide their pain if they can, it is a natural instinct to avoid attracting predators.

You can call it humane all you like, I don't buy it. I understand and accept that it is necessary; I just believe it could be done in a better way.

I guess that's it. There is no apology from me, sorry. Your extreme reaction to my post only shows me that it hit pretty close to home in an area that you appear to be a little conflicted on. I’m not the one cussing up a storm and yelling demands in capital letters. Maybe you should apologize for using such strong language in front of a potential child audience.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 02:14 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
I think the pig was already dead. I had to do that in science class with a dead fetal(?) pig in high school.
 
  by: s0n0fagun   02/24/2006 04:09 PM     
  @s0n0fagun  
 
From the first line of the source:

"ROSAMOND, Calif. - A teacher who castrated a live pig in front of her high school class is the target of protests by animal rights activists throughout the country."

This clearly negates the arguement that it was dead, and also those who posted saying that the kids were just witnessing some random farmer. The teacher was the one doing this.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 04:55 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
I believe the argument being presented by you is a strawman that has no significance on the issue at hand.

you make statements regarding the "Core" classes are insufficent. The issue is this is NOT a "Core" class but an Elective that is picked by the students to take on thier own.

You state is is wrong and inhumane to cut the pigs testicles out yet in the same breath say we do not know what the pig feels because we are not that pig. You have rebuttled your own point, we do not know what they feel and making uninformed opinions about what they "might" feel is irrelevant. What is relevant is that through experience and history t has been found to have no lasting ill effects on the animal and actually increases its usefullness.

It would be premature to think that this was the first time this class has done this. In saying that each student that signed up for this class has heard or read in the class description that castration of a pig was involved at some point. Apparently they did not care or they would not have signed up. My 2 cents are that that would be a major draw if in fact I did live on a farm and needed to know how to perform this operation.


just a FYI. When the circumsize baby's..guess what, they dont use anestesia (sp). why? because the child is so young the effects of the anestesia(sp) are more risky than the actual operation. Me and my 2 boys are circumsized and wouldn't you know it I have no reculection of the event and no undo stress from it occuring.

 
  by: DRHunk     02/24/2006 06:16 PM     
  @DRHunk  
 
“I believe the argument being presented by you is a strawman that has no significance on the issue at hand.”

- If you believe that I’d wager you don’t fully understand my points.

”you make statements regarding the "Core" classes are insufficent. The issue is this is NOT a "Core" class but an Elective that is picked by the students to take on thier own.”

- It’s not really that complicated. My issue is that since core classes are woefully inadequate in parts of America more time attention and resources should be spent on getting the basics right before investing in various electives such as, in this case, castrating pigs. I also fail to see how watching a teacher cut off a pigs balls is really going to teach them anything. If education were so simple we’d just need to take a bunch of kids to an operating room and suddenly we’d have bunch of fully qualified surgeons.

”You state is is wrong and inhumane to cut the pigs testicles out yet in the same breath say we do not know what the pig feels because we are not that pig. You have rebuttled your own point, we do not know what they feel and making uninformed opinions about what they "might" feel is irrelevant.”

- What we do know is that these animals have lots of nerves and can feel pain. It is a fairly reasonable assumption that pigs feel pain just like other animals and just like humans. After all rodeo is done by sticking spikes in an animal to make it buck, and horses are made to run faster by whipping them. Fairly simplistic examples like this are enough to show that animals feel pain. I don’t need to actually BE a pig to make certain logical conclusions about them.

“What is relevant is that through experience and history t has been found to have no lasting ill effects on the animal and actually increases its usefullness.”

- Well slaves were pretty useful around the cotton fields. Illegal immigrants make awfully cheap labor around the house and on the farms. Just because it is useful and convenient to exploit a person or an animal does not make it right.

”just a FYI. When the circumsize baby's..guess what, they dont use anestesia (sp). why? because the child is so young the effects of the anestesia(sp) are more risky than the actual operation.”

- Well that’s an entirely different argument. It is in fact the very reason why circumcision is so unpopular around the world. In America the rate has dropped to less than 60% at this point and is on the decline as more and more medical professionals shy away from the liability of this unnecessary medical procedure. Worldwide 82% of males are intact. Most major developed countries are against circumcision with most of the medical boards advising physicians against it as a routine procedure.

Maybe you should do some research on this one.

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/...
http://www.noharmm.org/...
http://www.nocirc.org/...

“Me and my 2 boys are circumsized and wouldn't you know it I have no reculection of the event and no undo stress from it occuring.”

- Well you accuse me of illogical arguments! If you had taken one of your boys and sawn off his hand when he was a newborn he would have no recollection of the event. For one thing babies don’t really remember being babies and for another most humans block traumatic events out of their life. For example when a woman has a baby the brain releases chemicals that actually make her forget the exact level of pain she had to endure.

Circumcision is a puritan religious tradition that began in order to reduce the likelihood of masturbation. It has been continued for cultural and religious reasons, and because usually a father wants his son to be like him. The reality there is no real need for it as a routine procedure, it causes agonizing pain to the baby (you can watch some videos online if you don’t believe me), and it has a risk of permanent physical or sexual harm to the baby. Some infants have even died during the procedure.

Due to the liability and the ethical considerations more and more doctors are against it as a routine procedure and many government and private health insurance organizations are pulling funding for it.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 06:57 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Once again you fail to address the issue by building strawman arguments.

"Well slaves were pretty useful around the cotton fields. Illegal immigrants make awfully cheap labor around the house and on the farms. Just because it is useful and convenient to exploit a person or an animal does not make it right."

Does not address the statement about not having any ill effects or becomming more useful.
The fact is that Slavery and Illegal Immigration did and still does have HUGE negative impact not only on the people involved in slavery but the economy in which Illegal immagrants are working.

"If you had taken one of your boys and sawn off his hand when he was a newborn he would have no recollection of the event. For one thing babies don’t really remember being babies and for another most humans block traumatic events out of their life. For example when a woman has a baby the brain releases chemicals that actually make her forget the exact level of pain she had to endure."

This statement only supports my argument that even if it caused the pig pain minor or otherwise it would not remember the act and still be a more usefull animal than if he was not casturated.

"It’s not really that complicated. My issue is that since core classes are woefully inadequate in parts of America more time attention and resources should be spent on getting the basics right before investing in various electives"

This staement fails to represent the last 8-9 years of "Core" classes these High School students have already endured. If you do not have a basic fundemental understanding of the Core basics by the time you are a Sophmore in high school then you have bigger issues than deciding if you need to take an elective or not.

I am not arguing the cemantics about circumscission, to each his own, the point to focus on is that it is done with no pain killers and has no effects on the child after the wound has healed.

 
  by: DRHunk     02/24/2006 08:22 PM     
  @DRHunk  
 
“Once again you fail to address the issue by building strawman arguments.”

- I guess it’s pretty easy to make that statement as opposed to dealing with the real issues I raised.

”Does not address the statement about not having any ill effects or becomming more useful.
The fact is that Slavery and Illegal Immigration did and still does have HUGE negative impact not only on the people involved in slavery but the economy in which Illegal immagrants are working.

- My point, and it’s not that difficult to grasp, is that not all traditional things that have been going on for years are good things.

”This statement only supports my argument that even if it caused the pig pain minor or otherwise it would not remember the act and still be a more usefull animal than if he was not casturated.”

- Well then by that same logic we can treat any animal in any way we see fit without any consideration of treating animals humanely. In fact you can further use this ridiculous logic to revoke all child abuse laws, after all many abused children will repress the memories of sexual and physical abuse if they were pretty young. It’s a really foolish tack you are taking.

”This staement fails to represent the last 8-9 years of "Core" classes these High School students have already endured. If you do not have a basic fundemental understanding of the Core basics by the time you are a Sophmore in high school then you have bigger issues than deciding if you need to take an elective or not.”

- Well you are just totally missing most of my points here. How do you explain the rates of innumeracy, poor general knowledge, poor literacy rates, and the fact that in a recent study 11% of Americans between 18-24 cannot find America on a map of the world? I explain it by saying that the core education is failing in many parts of America. For this reason, I am calling for such core education to be done better without distractions such as castrating pigs.

”I am not arguing the cemantics about circumscission, to each his own, the point to focus on is that it is done with no pain killers and has no effects on the child after the wound has healed.”

- Well you are just not even willing to consider that you might be wrong. The fact that you make the statement that no harm is done to the child proves that you have not read a single word of the research I shared with you, much of it written by doctors. The fact that many children have been killed, disfigured, or rendered sexually incapable by this unnecessary procedure is proof that there are effects on the child. Just because you and your two kids turned out okay is hardly a logical argument versus samples of thousands. Further more neither you nor your children will ever know what you have missed out on when those 140,000 nerve endings were cut off. They are irreversibly gone forever. Sure, to each his own, but your argument does nothing to prove your point.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 08:43 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
"Well you are just totally missing most of my points here. How do you explain the rates of innumeracy, poor general knowledge, poor literacy rates, and the fact that in a recent study 11% of Americans between 18-24 cannot find America on a map of the world?"

Easlily explained: Parents not taking an active enough roll in thier childrens education or life. More and more homes have both parents working then ever before, when the parents get home they do not worry about taking the time or interest in what the child did in school, or how thier homework is going, or even sitting down and helping them study. It is the parents responsibility to make sure thier children succeed in school and life it is not the schools responsibility to make sure the kids succeeed.

"Well then by that same logic we can treat any animal in any way we see fit without any consideration of treating animals humanely. In fact you can further use this ridiculous logic to revoke all child abuse laws, after all many abused children will repress the memories of sexual and physical abuse if they were pretty young. It’s a really foolish tack you are taking."

This is a classic (STRAWMAN)/Slippery Slope argument.
We both know you are comparing apples to oranges to bolter your point of view. Child abuse and general animal abuse once again Does have a negative impact on the person and animal and does not make them more usefull or productive on a farm.

"My point, and it’s not that difficult to grasp, is that not all traditional things that have been going on for years are good things."

If this is your point then yes you are correct. But the issue is you are trying to make this point about castration of farm animals, and in that context you are wrong. Some things are bad but this is not one of them.

This isn't a discussion on circumscission this is an argument about the long term effects a casterated pig with no pain killers might have.

"many children have been killed, disfigured, or rendered sexually incapable by this unnecessary procedure is proof that there are effects on the child"

Any botched operation will have an effect on the patient Circumscision is not immune to this....but once again this is not the argument at hand.
 
  by: DRHunk     02/24/2006 09:00 PM     
  DRHunk  
 
“Easlily explained: Parents not taking an active enough roll in thier childrens education or life…”

- I almost entirely agree with you on this. However, since this is unlikely to change the logical step to take is beef up the education they do get at school in the core areas. Less sport, less social stuff, less voting for class president, fewer clubs, no standardized testing, no teaching to the test, fewer pig castrations and more time spent on the basics. With parents not bothering to take an active roll this may be the only way to help them.

”This is a classic (STRAWMAN)/Slippery Slope argument. We both know you are comparing apples to oranges to bolter your point of view. Child abuse and general animal abuse once again Does have a negative impact on the person and animal and does not make them more usefull or productive on a farm.”

- Well your argument was that because a pig may not feel as much pain as a human, and because they will have forgotten their potential ordeal within a few days or weeks anything we do to them is okay as long as it is for the good of the farmer. I am refuting that argument because it can be used to justify a lot of abuse of various different forms. My examples may be been extreme, and I am not stupid enought to believe that you are trying to justify child abuse, but I am simply trying to demonstrate to you how your premis is wrong.

”If this is your point then yes you are correct. But the issue is you are trying to make this point about castration of farm animals, and in that context you are wrong. Some things are bad but this is not one of them.”

- I never said castration was a bad thing. I fully understand the need for it. I am simply asking if there is a more humane way of doing it.

”This isn't a discussion on circumscission this is an argument about the long term effects a casterated pig with no pain killers might have.”

- You were the one that entered into that arena to bolster your argument. You were the one that volunteered the information about the state of your penis and that of your two boys. I certainly never asked for such information. In fact all it seemed to do was undermine your argument since there is so much evidence against circumcision these days.

”Any botched operation will have an effect on the patient Circumscision is not immune to this...”

- Well you see that’s the heart of the issue right there. If we agree that every operation has the potential to be botched, then you also have to begin to question the logic behind putting new born babies through an unnecessary operation for no good reason. You can almost argue the whole pig thing on the basis of the long term advantage of having a castrated pig versus one with balls. But that argument only goes as far as justifying the benefits to us of having a better tasting more docile animal, it does not really address initial act of animal cruelty.

“but once again this is not the argument at hand.”

- And once again all I am doing is answering your points. Don’t raise points if you don’t want them answered.
 
  by: ZCT     02/24/2006 09:47 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
- "I never said castration was a bad thing. I fully understand the need for it. I am simply asking if there is a more humane way of doing it"

That is the point, it IS humane to casterate them at 3 weeks without anestesia, they show no signs of long term effects due to stress or pain.

If you want to go down the "what is and what is not humane road" i will say 2 things.

1) They are not Human and therefore precludes them from Humane treatment. They are born and bred to fill our guts.

2) First thing they do to slaughter an animal is slit its throat or zapp it with one of them fork things in the back of the head without any anestesia...is this not also considered inhumane?? Maybe we just all need to go out and hug a cow and tell them we will never eat a burger again. (now im the strawman) =)

"But that argument only goes as far as justifying the benefits to us of having a better tasting more docile animal, it does not really address initial act of animal cruelty."

Having more docile better tasting meat is the entire point all wrapped up in one neat little package.


You still have not proven that this act is cruel or inhumane to the pig you are merely stating your opinions on what you would feel if you were to be castrated today in that manner. I have proven not only through looking back at experience and history that this act can be accomplished and is accomplished with no effect to the animals life.

Until you can prove there are ill effects, mentaly or physicaly to the pig then you have no case to stand on and the last 20 post's were in vain.

"My examples may be been extreme, and I am not stupid enought to believe that you are trying to justify child abuse, but I am simply trying to demonstrate to you how your premis is wrong."

Then give me an example that isn't in the extreme and that actually occurs and is accepted for occuring.

I will even give you one (Veal).

 
  by: DRHunk     02/24/2006 10:15 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Ooops, forgot to mention.

"since this is unlikely to change the logical step to take is beef up the education they do get at school in the core areas. Less sport, less social stuff, less voting for class president, fewer clubs, no standardized testing, no teaching to the test, fewer pig castrations and more time spent on the basics. With parents not bothering to take an active roll this may be the only way to help them."

You do realize that eveything in your list actually helps children in school, and cutting those programs would increase the rate at which children experiment with drugs and sex.

think about it, if the parents are not at home, and your not at school in some extraciricular activity.. where are you?? hangin on the street corner or over hanging out with your boy/girl friend at thier house. and those who are not are the ones excelling in school in the first place.

(Dumbest comment I have seen you make)
 
  by: DRHunk     02/24/2006 10:42 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Just take it as noted that you're an offensive hypocritical jerk.

Emphasis on the hypocrit. For one who goes around complaining and proclaiming about the way people treat each other - you seem incapable of being polite and civil.

Yeah, I was and am pissed at you. Do you donate to the humane society? Do you go and give your time and help out? Have you ever lifted a finger to help an injured bunny or cat at the roadside? My fiance and I both have done all the above and more - you have no right to cast asperations against my love and compassion for animals.

Likewise, your entire position is based on "i dont buy it" - you say that I can't have any idea how it feels to be the piglet in that situation - yet my position is more qualified and backed up by empirical evidence than yours. Your entire position can be summed up as "I think it must be a terrible experience, therefore it is"

Again, you're wrong about child animals hiding their pain. In that regard, they behave exactly like a human child does when it gets hurt. Piglets particularly tend to sqeal if they are hurt or scared.

Animals raised for meat cannot be given anaesthesia, it taints the meat and can damage the kidneys and liver of the animal - that is why you almost always have to get a blood test before getting your cat or dog fixed. The anaesthesia might kill it otherwise. The same goes for chemical castration.

If you want get into a howl about how poorly treated animals are, you might start with battery hens, with their beaks amputated so they dont peck themselves and each other to death, pumped up with antibiotics because of the unsanitary conditions they are forced to endure in tiny cramped cages.

I'm sick of your caustic and offensive attitude - you actually make good points now and then, but they are so bound up in your "i know best, and the rest of you are morons/bigots/sadists" acidity that the entire value of your post is sub-zero.

The 'Sometimes I like to push buttons to see who has an intelligent point to make. My initial verbiage was inflammatory and provocative' fob-off you gave MOC just doesn't cut it. Pushing buttons and being insulting and inflammatory does nothing for the intellectual level and rationality of the discussion, it merely serves to make people pissed off at you. Also, this isn't ZCT'snews.com. You don't have a right to come here and piss everyone off by verbally attacking them personally because it's 'just an amusing diversion'.

I love animals, even snakes (spiders is pushing it, although i can stand them and dont like to see them mistreated or wantonly killed), through the years I've put a lot of effort into animal welfare. Then you have the gall to compare me to the kind of person who thinks animals have no rights, and humans can do whatever they like to them. Of course I'm pissed off at you. You didn't even have a basis for making such an insult, nor for attacking me personally. If you had any kind of social responsibility, you would have appologised. It's clear to see that you don't.

You're ignorant of the issue, bigoted, and offensive. Nuff said.



 
  by: lauriesman     02/25/2006 12:10 AM     
  @ZCT2  
 
"Your extreme reaction to my post only shows me that it hit pretty close to home in an area that you appear to be a little conflicted on."

See this is what I mean. You cant just say "sorry, I don't believe I owe you an apology". You have to go and make another snide insult.

Actually, if you want to go the psychoanalysis route - your inability to make a post without being snide or insulting hints at a "little man" syndrome. The need to make yourself look or feel superior to others is often manifested by such pettiness. This belittling of others serves to emphasise in your own mind your intellectual/moral superiority and is a well documented and recognised anti-social behavior. Don't worry, there is treatment available for it though - first you need to learn to accept and love yourself for who you are.

(Not very nice is it?)
 
  by: lauriesman     02/25/2006 12:18 AM     
  haahha  
 
ZCT has turned into a troll and is getting lots of food.

Sorry mate, I'm not going to feed you.
 
  by: jendres     02/25/2006 12:21 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
"What we do know is that these animals have lots of nerves and can feel pain."

No, YOU think you know that they can feel a lot of pain. Obviously you are unfamilair with animal pain and distress catagories. Castration of 3 week piglets does not fall within Class C pain and distress (where anesthetics are typically required). I would surmize that is because the testies are not developed and the nerve connections are not compeltely connected.

Please note that all the pain that you IMAGINE would be due to damage being done to the testies itself. The testies is not being cut or damaged during the operation -- A blood vessel is being snipped. The testies has no time to send any presumptive pain signal to the brain because it has been detached from the system.

"I don’t need to actually BE a pig to make certain logical conclusions about them."

They aren't "logical conclusions", they are presumptive assertations based on false rational.

As for your overarching educational argument:

SOmeone has to work the farms and ranches of America. What's wrong with teaching those most likely to perform such tasks something, I don't know, USEFUL to a likely trade to them?

How do you know that this biology lesson didn't go along with an anatomy lesson on pigs? Somehow I seriously doubt that all the lesson plan called for was the observance of a pig being castrated.

Additionally, the core educational components that you seem wont to harp on and on about -- how do you know that these kids are lacking in these basic skills? Biology requires a firm grasp of reading and writing, so I think it safe to argue that such an elective class REINFORCES such lessons from the core classes, not dillute them.
 
  by: Dedolito     02/25/2006 12:49 AM     
  oh, and  
 
http://www.ars.usda.gov/...

Yes, castration is stressful and painful. But the behavior of piglets post-procedure do not indicate a significant level of pain and distress if

1) castration is performed early (US guidlines is <3 weeks, EU is <1 week I believe)

2) the procedure is done properly (takes less than 30 seconds if done properly)

Personally, I would before that a local anesthetic be used so the pigletts feel nothing at all. That has it's own health issues, mainly kidney damage, but I think it a reasonable trade-off. And I'm not overly worried about any sort of "there's chemicals in our foods!" arguments if the drugs are used properly.
 
  by: Dedolito     02/25/2006 02:36 AM     
  DO PETA people wear leather shoes?  
 
chalk it up to People Eating Tasty Animals
 
  by: Mile High Guy     02/25/2006 11:11 AM     
  @DRHunk  
 
I’m going to be brief because really this is just going around in circles now…

“That is the point, it IS humane to casterate them at 3 weeks without anestesia, they show no signs of long term effects due to stress or pain.”

- As we have already discussed it is only your opinion that the procedure is humane, but then you also think circumcision is humane, an opinion that is rapidly losing support in the global medical community. Conventional thinking could be wrong on this. Just because the animals learn to adapt and forget their moment of torture does not really make the act itself reasonable.

”1) They are not Human and therefore precludes them from Humane treatment. They are born and bred to fill our guts.”

- Well then by that logic there should be no concern at all about how any animal is kept. You can justify any behavior not matter how obscene with that sentence. Also you appear to misunderstand the definition of humane, which since you have not bothered to look it up means, “Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion.” Being humane does not have anything to do with the recipient species.

”You still have not proven that this act is cruel or inhumane to the pig you are merely stating your opinions on what you would feel if you were to be castrated today in that manner. I have proven not only through looking back at experience and history that this act can be accomplished and is accomplished with no effect to the animals life.”

- You have proved no such thing.

”Until you can prove there are ill effects, mentaly or physicaly to the pig then you have no case to stand on and the last 20 post's were in vain.”

- I am not a lawyer, I don’t have to make a case. I don’t think any veterinarians or medical ethicists have been posting on this subject. So we are all posting in vain really. Nothing is going to change thanks to this exchange of ideas. My only hope is that somewhere out there someone has been made to think about something that they perhaps took for granted before. I don’t even care if they agree with me, as long as they thought about it.

”Then give me an example that isn't in the extreme and that actually occurs and is accepted for occuring. I will even give you one (Veal).”

- Asked and answered. Thank you.
 
  by: ZCT     02/25/2006 02:36 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
I find it ironic that most of the accusations you hurl at me are more true of you. I have not flown off the handle with foul language and direct insults, as you have.

As for the psychoanalysis. Good job. I am just so inadequate and insecure the only way I can feel good about myself is to belittle other people on the internet. It's almost like you're looking right into my very soul. Wonderful. I am so humbled by your gift. But I did find you more amusing when your ranting included the vulgar language.
 
  by: ZCT     02/25/2006 02:42 PM     
  @Dedolito 1/2  
 
“No, YOU think you know that they can feel a lot of pain.”

- Out of interest why is it you imagine that other parts of the world set the limit at one week for the procedure? Could it be that even among experts there is some disparity about how much pain is caused and when something becomes unacceptable?

It is also entirely possible that those who have performed much of the research have a vested interest in convincing people like you that the entire farming process is wonderfully humane to animals and environmentally responsible. Of course we have often discovered many years later that certain practices that were once considered reasonable were in fact greedy attempts to maximize profits with little or no regard for animal rights and the environment. Blindly accepting the status quo and assuming everything is perfect is just naive.

”SOmeone has to work the farms and ranches of America. What's wrong with teaching those most likely to perform such tasks something, I don't know, USEFUL to a likely trade to them?”

- Because it is making the presumption that the best any kid living in this area can hope for is working on a farm. That kid might want to be a stock broker in New York, but they have been raised to think that farming is the future and that some of the fancy city boy education is less important that knowing how to handle an animal. The point is by the time the kid is old enough to have a true opinion on what they want to do, they may have quite the up hill battle to make a change, which is why I am advocating a good core education. And I’m sorry but even if the class ran for a few weeks, I doubt simply watching a teacher castrate a pig is going to be all the training they need. If this kid goes to an interview on a farm on day and is asked about castrating a pig and they reply, “well gee I saw my teacher do it once.” That is hardly going to put them head and shoulders above other applicants.

”How do you know that this biology lesson didn't go along with an anatomy lesson on pigs? Somehow I seriously doubt that all the lesson plan called for was the observance of a pig being castrated.”

- I guess my question really is the legitimacy and importance of the lesson. Can’t they show a video on it, if it deemed that important?
 
  by: ZCT     02/25/2006 03:08 PM     
  @Dedolito 2/2  
 
”Additionally, the core educational components that you seem wont to harp on and on about -- how do you know that these kids are lacking in these basic skills?”

- Oh yes I hate to harp on about core education. You know you once told me that you were once a teacher, hence your ‘expert’ status in the education area. Yet your posts to this day remain littered with constant mistakes in spelling, grammar, and general sentence structure. If this is the skill set of an educator (albeit a former one) then just how good is the teaching of the core skills? The mere fact that you consider my interest in this area ‘harp[ing] on and on’ shows quite a lack of concern for it on your part. If other teachers have such a lack of interest in teaching core skills, maybe this is one of the reasons why they are doing it so badly.

“Biology requires a firm grasp of reading and writing, so I think it safe to argue that such an elective class REINFORCES such lessons from the core classes, not dillute them.”

- I took several years of biology in school and managed to complete the course just fine without ever watching my teacher hold down a pig and cut off its balls. I have already said that what I called core subjects includes science which would of course include biology.

“Yes, castration is stressful and painful. But the behavior of piglets post-procedure do not indicate a significant level of pain and distress if 1) castration is performed early (US guidlines is <3 weeks, EU is <1 week I believe)”

- I wonder why there is that difference between one continent and the other?

”2) the procedure is done properly (takes less than 30 seconds if done properly)”

- Perhaps those doing it should be trained qualified and licensed then.

”Personally, I would before that a local anesthetic be used so the pigletts feel nothing at all. That has it's own health issues, mainly kidney damage, but I think it a reasonable trade-off. And I'm not overly worried about any sort of "there's chemicals in our foods!" arguments if the drugs are used properly.”

- I kind of agree, but I’m not even sure that that would be necessary. My only question here is could there be a better and more humane way? It’s just a question, and I don’t know the answer to that. Whatever the answer is as we travel back to the news article that started it all, I just don’t believe that the class demonstration that caused all this controversy was beneficial to anyone involved.
 
  by: ZCT     02/25/2006 03:09 PM     
  @ ZCT  
 
Just let it go, man. You've already run it into the ground.
 
  by: vanillaskye   02/25/2006 05:42 PM     
  how the world works  
 
Every community segregates itself into a mainstream and a subculture. Members from the mainstream, having the numbers, form the values of the community; members of the subculture do what they can to promote their own values.

But members of the subculture tend to tire of constantly fighting a losing battle, so there's a constant erosion as members leave the community to move to areas where, they think, people are more like them.

Thus, rural communities always have memories of the "weirdo who ran off to New York City," and urban communties have the "guy who burned out and went off to work on a farm."

Now we're seeing European conservatives emigrating to the Red State U.S. and American liberals moving to Canada or Europe. The point is, you generally can't change a culture -- you just leave.
 
  by: l´anglais     02/25/2006 06:33 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Show me where I attacked you, prior to your ill-begotten insult against both my religion and my love of animals, and I'll cop to your accusation.

The point is, YOU insulted ME first. I have a right to be offended by such a vile accusation. If that offense is expressed through more vulgar than normal language, it should show you the depth of my outrage.

The psychoanalysis was - as I'm sure you can guess - satire, intended to point out how completely unfounded your psychoanalysis of my response was.

You are, by your very own words, being hypocritical. On the one hand, you champion the rights of individuals to be treated fairly, and on the other you think it is acceptable to go around being deliberately caustic, inflammatory and insulting. When called on it, you don't feel the slightest need to offer an apology, because it was all apparently to stir intellectual debate (the ends justifies the means does it?).
 
  by: lauriesman     02/25/2006 09:48 PM     
  I'm with PETA  
 
if it involves:
(P)eople
(E)ating
(T)asty
(A)nimals
:)
 
  by: LuxFestinus     02/25/2006 11:58 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
It just struck me that you sound exactly like Manilaryce over on the "Home abortion" topic: http://www.shortnews.com/...

You have no proof, so you cast a lot of aspersions and make a lot of unfounded statements, which you feel justified in doing because you're arguing for the poor piglets like Manila is for the poor unborn. You even think you're justified in using lacing every comment you make in flamebait to stimulate discussion. Then when anyone calls you on it, you act as if the world has something to prove to you. These overzealous moral highground arguments are nothing but a waste of time for everyone involved.
 
  by: momentofclarity     02/25/2006 11:59 PM     
  @momentofclarity  
 
If it's all such a waste of time, why partake?
 
  by: ZCT     02/26/2006 12:21 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
Because it takes time to determine that you're arguing against a brick wall. Why start an argument if half the discussion is going to be about your behavior? You call that stimulating intellectual discussion?
 
  by: momentofclarity     02/26/2006 12:49 AM     
  @momentofclarity  
 
Well it was not a waste of time for me because it gave me some very useful insight into people's attitudes towards animals, education, and farming.

- First off I discovered that people appear to be utterly unconcerned about animal welfare. Even the animal lovers appeared disinterested by potential suffering of an animal, justifying it by citing tradition and their own belief that it is for the good of the animal and therefore okay.

- No one addressed why Europe considers castration cruel after a week, but America is okay with three weeks.

- No one seemed to care that much of the data they have looked at is from entities that have a vested interest in making us look the other way.

- Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary people seemed stuck with this naive notion of a good ole boy riding his majestic horse around his farm, tending to his animals and crops. For some reason this romantic ideal blinded them from the truth that many farms these days are owned by corporations, and animal abuse happens all the time all over the world. For some reason I was shouted down for even suggesting that we be mindful of possible abuse.

- I discovered a few unintelligent people thought it was funny to corrupt the acronym of PETA and post it, each time as if it were an original and amusing joke.

- I noticed a surprising lack of concern with the American education system. People defended the status quo as if the education system was perfect, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

- Several people seemed to believe that a teacher castrating a live pig had some actual educational value.

- People made various comments that supported abuse of animals on the basis that as our future food there should really be no regard for their welfare.

So I guess that was interesting in seeing where people are coming from. I am surprised and disappointed on the whole with what I have read. No one seemed to see the bigger picture, no one seemed interested in questioning the status quo. I admit to using some so called ‘flame-bait’ just to see if anyone would bite, but again, no. I guess for many people if they can continue to stuff their face at McDonalds they’d rather not consider how the food was made.

My biggest concern with this ambivalence is that since so few people are willing to ask questions large corporate farming organizations can continue to abuse animals and the environment with no challenge. Such practices that put profit before responsibility have helped spread mad cow disease and bird flu. Unless we keep an eye on what is going on these problems have the potential to be widespread. Let’s hope some people start asking questions before it’s too late.

At the end of the day as a person that has to eat just like the rest of you, I sincerely hope that I am wrong. I sincerely hope that farming today is as idealistic and perfect as some people here seem to think it is. Because clearly with such a lack of interest in considering possibilities if I am right then it will be too late to change things.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/...
 
  by: ZCT     02/26/2006 03:55 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
- I wonder why there is that difference between one continent and the other?

Interesting question. Perhaps European pigs are more excitable than American ones? :D

This entire argument is proof of what you're saying about the failure of core education, since I consider basic logic and debate skills to be core education. When presented with an opposing viewpoint, people who haven't developed their logic/debate skills are usually unable or unwilling to process new information brought to the debate (which is why pretty much everyone ignored the links you posted for further information).
 
  by: themorp   02/26/2006 03:56 PM     
  @ZCT  
 
Wow, a lot of these things really speak of a completely lack of consideration for the viewpoints of others.

"- First off I discovered that people appear to be utterly unconcerned about animal welfare. Even the animal lovers appeared disinterested by potential suffering of an animal, justifying it by citing tradition and their own belief that it is for the good of the animal and therefore okay."

This is an exaggeration - simply because people haven't the degree of concern you do about this, including the propensity to assume the absolute worst, does not mean that they are "utterly unconcerned about animal welfare." That you would draw this conclusion about other animal lovers for not being as concerned as you just smacks of extremism. They are simply unconcerned, or less concerned, about this case (or just small details of it).

"- No one addressed why Europe considers castration cruel after a week, but America is okay with three weeks."

No one has established this to be the case, either. Someone did comment about a POSSIBLE disparity in regulations, but assuming that is true, no one said anything about it being about when the procedure becomes cruel other than you, a claim which you've now begun stating as fact.

"- No one seemed to care that much of the data they have looked at is from entities that have a vested interest in making us look the other way."

Again, this was a suggestion you made, there is no factual backing for it. You suggested it may be the case on one issue, and now you're stating that it is fact for "much of the data they have looked at."

"- Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary people seemed stuck with this naive notion of a good ole boy riding his majestic horse around his farm...For some reason I was shouted down for even suggesting that we be mindful of possible abuse."

You've...said little to nothing about corporate abuses, but you have gone to great lengths to denigrate farmers in general. In fact, this whole issue is about the practice in small towns. What was this "overwhelming evidence to the contrary?" That you called all these people hicks and assert that they are being forced into farm life generation after generation? You were shouted down in this area for being so blatantly offensive, not because no one else wants to consider potential abuses.

"- I discovered a few unintelligent people thought it was funny to corrupt the acronym of PETA and post it, each time as if it were an original and amusing joke."

Yes, that did get old fast.

"- I noticed a surprising lack of concern with the American education system. People defended the status quo as if the education system was perfect, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

This is such a warped view of the issue. Everyone knows that education is in a sorry state these days. The point of contention is your claim that these kids taking an elective class in high school means that their education is suffering. There is no proof for that and no proof that this school in particular was less than adequate.

"- Several people seemed to believe that a teacher castrating a live pig had some actual educational value."

Right, and you've yet to show why a demonstration of a practice related to agriculture in a agriculture class is not, without changing the subject to how cruel is is. You do not like the practice - great. That does not mean that it was innapropriate or had no value in the class.

"- People made various comments that supported abuse of animals on the basis that as our future food there should really be no regard for their welfare."

Yes, these arguments were a bit unproductive.

All in all, I think you need to take a step back and try to look at things from the perspectives of others, rather than from your own incensed viewpoint. Most of what you're getting from the arguments here is terribly colored by your own perception, and shows you to be more than a tad extremist about the whole matter. Most people are arguing against minor points or those unrelated to animal rights entirely while you make the world of them in terms of the acceptance of animal cruelty.
 
  by: momentofclarity     02/26/2006 07:54 PM     
  @momentofclarity  
 
I'm not going to rehash the same points over and over. Clearly you are a debating master and I am just a lowly idiot. Everything you say is cold calculated logic and the pinnacle of common sense and well informed knowledge, whereas I am just spouting my ill-informed radical ideas based purely on my emotional response to my own ignorance. In this instance I really do hope you are right, although I reserve the right to remain skeptical.

I really hope my opinion on this matter is one of fringe ignorance. I really hope that we are not turning a blind eye to the destruction of our environment, the further deterioration of our education system and the abuse of animals at all levels, including the kind of abuses that will come back and bite us in the ass because we mess up our food chain with them.

There is nothing left to argue, and I hope for all our sakes that I am completely wrong. However, you should temper that smugness of yours because it is highly unlikely that you are completely right. The answer probably lies somewhere in between.
 
  by: ZCT     02/27/2006 05:17 AM     
  What about bulls and goats  
 
they have em cut off all the time. calms em down, don't u know.
 
  by: MmmMan     03/01/2006 03:51 PM     
  And they don't use anesthesia on babys  
 
when they circumcise them. How come peta aint after the baby docs?
 
  by: MmmMan     03/01/2006 03:56 PM     
  ...  
 
This would almost be funny, if it weren't so sad (in the pathetic sense)..
 
  by: StarShadow     03/01/2006 04:08 PM     
 
 
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