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03/29/2006 12:57 AM ID: 53565 Permalink   

Texas Students Walk Out Over Immigration Laws

 

Monday morning students in Dallas rushed City Hall for the rights of illegal immigrants. Tuesday morning students from Fort Worth joined in by going to Fort Worth City Hall.

One student Richie Meza said, "They work here. They work in construction. They build the houses. Not everybody else is in the hot (weather) working outside. They're inside in air conditioning. We came to help them out, you know, protest."

Congress has a legislation right now trying to make all illegal immigrants felons and unable to receive aid.

It is estimated that tens of thousands of students walked out around the country beginning on Monday.

 
  Source: www.nbc5i.com  
    WebReporter: cherubgirl Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  49 Comments
  
  I am kind of in support  
 
For this law. Illegal immigrants dont deserve anything but lifesaving medical care for free (IMO everyone in the world deserves the right to that). Its easy enough to come in to countries legally and many hundreads of thousands do.
 
  by: ssxxxssssss   03/29/2006 02:25 AM     
  @ssxxxssssss  
 
i dont think they have medicare in usa.
ever heard of insurance?
 
  by: stonedwookie   03/29/2006 02:34 AM     
  I will admit  
 
I dont know how US healthcare works. But everyone deserves free basic healthcare. USA doesnt agree with me thats fine :). But even if I was visiting and got stabbed, I would expect that the treatment to save my life would be free, it probably wouldnt be though. It is here however.
 
  by: ssxxxssssss   03/29/2006 02:46 AM     
  I like how they say students.  
 
Majority of them being mexican. A couple of billion dollars goes down the drain in healthcare for us paying for these people commiting a crime.
 
  by: digital_darkness   03/29/2006 02:57 AM     
  No sympathy  
 
Sorry, but I do not sympathize with the illegal immigrants or their rabid advocates (I live in L.A., and they ARE rabid). These people are here illegally, draining public resources, and doing so in ever-increasing numbers. Our system is flawed in ways that allow for massive abuses. Are they people, deserving of treatment accorded to people? Certainly, and that includes the treatment we give to people who break the law. That is what their supporters will shout you down for saying. They flip emotion and race cards around and send up smokescreens like a cheap magician. People who want to send them packing are not against immigration - these are not immigrants as our nation's founding citizens were, because they actually went through the process of becoming citizens properly. Nor are people who want to end this racists - we simply want the flood of non-citizens to stop because they cause a host of problems as they infiltrate our society.

Immigration is what made America, but not the kind of immigration that involves tunnels, coyotes, and anchor babies.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/29/2006 03:35 AM     
  i hate the end of that quote  
 
and it makes it seem like the students are uniformed
of what's going on.

Newspaper should have made a logical decision and
cut that "you know, protest" part out. Make the
sentence a lot more firm then what it is now.
 
  by: hotrock11     03/29/2006 04:24 AM     
  There is a big issue here  
 
There was a story on one thoses 60 minute shows where they have Mexicans cross the boarder, have their kids, now their kids are americans because they were born here. Here is the killer,, they then drive back in their lexus. They should everyday how the kids cross the boarder, go to school (for free). Fo to the hospital, get major operations, and walk out with out paying, who are they going to send the bill to, they live in mexico, so now the hospital is stuck with the bill. I wish we had free health care, but we are (USA)speeding money on the "WAR" and "The War on Drugs" which we are losing both, sort of a tie on the first one, but the money spent on the war on drugs could have insured the USA, everyone last American for 10 years.
 
  by: thedrewman   03/29/2006 04:37 AM     
  Charity starts at home  
 
Get our own country in order before we start giving rights to these aliens. Sure we're not exactly hurting, but with a deficit like we've got we can't afford a drain like these illegal immigrants.

They should have no rights in our country, and their children who are born here illegally shouldn't receive any rights either. It's unfortunate if we have to send children back to Mexico, because it's really not their fault...but if you take a hard stance against something and stick with it, eventually they'll give up. Our laws are a joke and that is why they keep coming.
 
  by: RaabHimself   03/29/2006 05:42 AM     
  nice little knitting circle we have here  
 
has anyone here actually studied the bill? at the least, it'a a horrible plan for the US economy. at the worst, it tramples on the civil liberties of otherwise law abiding people. we need reform. this proposed bill solves nothing other than to give us the illusion of security. i'm with the protesters on this one.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/29/2006 06:48 AM     
  OK  
 
Well I am all for equal treatment, but if you are in the country illegaly I would have to say no help for you. It is not mean, but it is not fare for all of thoes imagrents who came here leagally and to the people living in this country.
 
  by: dxman4789   03/29/2006 10:24 AM     
  @dxman4789  
 
"if you are in the country illegaly I would have to say no help for you"

what kind of help exactly are you talking about?

"it is not fare for all of thoes imagrents who came here leagally and to the people living in this country."

legal entry into this country is a concept set up by european immigrants who came here illegally to begin with.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/29/2006 10:33 AM     
  @manilaryce  
 
"legal entry into this country is a concept set up by european immigrants who came here illegally to begin with."

What immigrants are you referring to?
 
  by: treyjazz   03/29/2006 03:37 PM     
  i think he means  
 
the colonists. You know the ones that came here and slaughtered the Native Americans.
 
  by: notalentassclown     03/29/2006 03:51 PM     
  well  
 
we can bitch as much as we want until there is a plan that makes sense we are screwed.

How do you keep them from coming in? How do you kick out the 12 mill that are all ready here?
 
  by: Emp3r0r     03/29/2006 03:54 PM     
  @notalentassclown  
 
That's what I thought he was referring to. If that is the case then practically every country on earth has people whose ancestors are guilty of that. Also, they didn't have a government with laws so it wasn't really 'illegal'.
 
  by: treyjazz   03/29/2006 04:19 PM     
  @treyjazz  
 
i just find it ironic that the concept of legal and illegal entry was created by european immigrants who came here with fraudulent claims to this country. the native americans were okay with sharing their land as long as we were peaceful and respectful. we have a knack for hypocrisy and an exclusory attitude.

"practically every country on earth has people whose ancestors are guilty of that"

not every country, and not exactly the same way. ancient indigenous peoples are usually replaced slowly by interbreeding, not genocide. slaughtering the entire population of a continent is something that happens after capitalism arrives.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/29/2006 06:56 PM     
  Yes, attrocities were committed...  
 
...but there is a system here now. They are in violation, and it is taking its toll. In a blissful utopia, we could all wander the world, receive free services and hugs wherever we go, and abolish all citizenship. In this world, Mexico is unloading its poor on us, and it is high time something is done to stop it.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/29/2006 07:47 PM     
  @moment  
 
yawn. so you're in favor of this bill?
 
  by: manilaryce     03/29/2006 08:10 PM     
  bah  
 
Again what are you going to do to stop it?
 
  by: Emp3r0r     03/29/2006 08:50 PM     
  @manila  
 
Oh, worry not, I find touchy-feely idealism just as tiresome as you seem to find the reality of the situation.

Like many bills put out by this Congressman from my former state, this one is extemist and flawed. Thusly, I do not support it but I do welcome the discussion it raises because I hope that will lead to a solution. I think the bill's real purpose could be any number of things - garnering support from conservative xenophobes, destruction of the issue by way of the defeat of a bill doomed from the start, distracting us from ongoing investigation of the illegal and incompetent actions of the Bush administration, etc. People who hire illegals, smuggle illegals, and so forth ought to be punished. Our borders ought to be made more impermeable. Our government should not be looking the other way, and ought to be taking active steps to make illegal immigration harder and less attractive. This bill, however, is simply draconian and simplistic. Telling charitable organizations who they can and cannot help, for example, is absurd. You cannot make th problem go away simply by criminalizing everyone involved.

Regarding the issue as a whole, the only thing I really care about here is the effect on our economy and country as a whole. By their numbers, these people are having a deleterious effect being outside the system, regardless of how tragic and compelling the individual stories may be. The reason these people are at risk of losing civil liberties or living as fugitives is because they chose to enter the country illegally. Consequences - fancy that.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/29/2006 08:57 PM     
  @moment  
 
blaiming the poor. what a new concept. yes things need to be changed through reform, not stoping immigration altogether. accusing protesters against the bill of being "rabid", then saying you don't support the bill either is a bit confusing. this specific bill obviously targets latinos, so the subject of race is a valid topic to argue against it. if we want to talk about the "reality" of the issue then we should probably look beyond the simple solution of border security. how about looking at why these people want to come here in the first place, if we really want to keep them in their own country? the prevailing anti-immigration solution is to enclose america in a giant bubble and plug our ears. the countries these people are from are ravaged by corruption, war, and poverty- all of which our government and corporations have had a hand in creating. that's the reality of the situation.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/29/2006 09:19 PM     
  I have a solution  
 
If we want to catch illegal immigrants, just write a bill to pass, get the illegal Mexicans to walk out in protest and round up their asses to deport them.
 
  by: s0n0fagun   03/29/2006 11:41 PM     
  @manila  
 
"blaiming the poor. what a new concept."

Emotional rhetoric - what a new tactic.

We blame the poor when they burglarize houses, why not do the same when they collectively do so to a nation? Their situation may be lamentable, but that does not mean that we have to look the other way when they begin to drag us down with them.

"yes things need to be changed through reform, not stoping immigration altogether."

More rhetoric - I never proposed any such thing. I said illegal immigration needs to stop because people living outside the system are draining it dry. In case you'd not considered it, that affects the legitimate immigrants as well.

"accusing protesters against the bill of being "rabid", then saying you don't support the bill either is a bit confusing."

Again, that is not what I said. I said the Latino advocates are rabid, which can be observed if you live in Los Angeles and pay attention to the news. It seems that whenever there is an opportunity, a special interest group is there with lawyers to throw the race card. Last year a baby was killed in a shootout in which the father was carrying it around while firing at police, and within days it was a high-profile race case backed by one such group. Of the minority activist groups, this particular one often seems the most ferocious and least sensible.

"this specific bill obviously targets latinos, so the subject of race is a valid topic to argue against it."

Being that Latinos are the largest group of illegal immigrants in the US, I think that is bound to happen. Need it be a race case? No, they should also be taking care of other illegal immigrants as well. But, trying to stop the source of the largest group seems to be a good start. I am German/Norwegian, and if it were Germans or Norwegians pouring into the US illegally, I would say the same thing. This is a problem of illegal immigrants, not Latinos. The subject of race is only valid to make counterarguments uncomfortable - in other words, to exploit it.

"if we want to talk about the "reality" of the issue then we should probably look beyond the simple solution of border security. how about looking at why these people want to come here in the first place...the countries these people are from are ravaged by corruption, war, and poverty- all of which our government and corporations have had a hand in creating. that's the reality of the situation."

Yes, the US government and corporations are international pariahs, so what are your solutions? Do you have a figure the US and/or its companies ought to pay out for the problems to which they contribute? Are you saying that we can never again defend our borders because some things we've done have caused hardship elsewhere? Is there a point at which you will actually hold these governments responsible for their own people, or is the US supposed to grin and bear picking up the slack until it collapses because we've not got the moral highground?

Simply saying that the US ought to play nicer or provide more foreign aid is not a solution, it is a pipe dream. It is like saying that since chemotherapy is imperfect, we ought not to fight cancer until we've learned to cure it. Stemming the tide of illegals is a simple solution, but I'll take a simple (somewhat effective) solution over simply placing blame.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/30/2006 12:53 AM     
  @moment  
 
"We blame the poor when they burglarize houses, why not do the same when they collectively do so to a nation?... that does not mean that we have to look the other way when they begin to drag us down with them"

you're comparing an entire group of people to burglars. emotional rhetoric? hello mr. black kettle.

"I said illegal immigration needs to stop because people living outside the system are draining it dry."

yes, and you're wrong. illegals aren't taking our jobs or ruining our economy. the sky is not falling. greenspan says immigrants, including illegals, contribute $70 billion and use $43 billion in services. where's this drain you're talking about? billions of dollars are spent in sales tax and also unclaimed by illegals in tax refunds. additionally they contribute $2.7 billion to social security and $168 million to unemployment insurance taxes. these are two programs they can't even access.

"I said the Latino advocates are rabid, which can be observed if you live in Los Angeles and pay attention to the news."

i do live in los angeles, but i don't watch the news. maybe that's where our difference in perception of the illegal "threat" comes in. i suggest you do more research on the "reality" of the issue.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/30/2006 01:49 AM     
  quote on illegal immigration  
 
here's some more emotional rhetoric as you call it.

"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.)
 
  by: manilaryce     03/30/2006 03:05 AM     
  @manila  
 
Again with the hostility and sarcasm...is that a defense mechanism, or a product of being with the "good" guys on the "right" side of the issues?

"you're comparing an entire group of people to burglars. emotional rhetoric? hello mr. black kettle"

It is only an emotional comparison if you insist on reading it as such, which seems to be your angle on this issue, among others. It is really a pretty simple and unemotional comparison. A burglar sneaks into your house and takes what is yours. Illegal immigrants sneak into your country and also take what is yours. Now, it could be theirs if they had gone through the proper channels, but they did not, and they do not somehow still have the right to what is here as if they did. Obviusly the comparison muddies in that they put something back, but how to quantify that?

Now as for the figures, YOU say those things, but cite no source. Frankly, I doubt their accuracy because of unknowns in the equation - how many illegals, how many do and do not pay taxes, how many access what services and how often, and so forth. I've heard the numbers thrown into question more times than I can count, and while Greenspan may certainly be a competent and credible source, but I do not know his words from Adam's without source or context.

What I do know is that on one thread we complain about Bush's unemployment rates and how hard it is to get jobs in the US, while on another we talk about how there are plenty of jobs left over even after many are taken by a massive population of non-citizen workers. Some complain about outsourcing, but advocate this? That seems a little fishy.

"i do live in los angeles, but i don't watch the news. maybe that's where our difference in perception of the illegal "threat" comes in."

I suppose you're going to infer that I must be a Fox News junkie next, right? I get my news from radio and the internet, but thanks for yet another petty little potshot.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/30/2006 03:10 AM     
  @manila2  
 
"here's some more emotional rhetoric as you call it."

Did I say that everything you say is emotional rhetoric, without merit? No, I cited a few specific instances as such, now quit your flamebaiting if you actually want to discuss the issue.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/30/2006 03:19 AM     
  @moment  
 
i only reflect what i'm given. you're presenting your opinion as fact in a most pretentious way, and claim your comments are based in fact while others are merely emotional. the hypocrisy gets tiresome after awhile. now, rather than own up to the facts you're attacking their authenticity.

http://www.app.com/...

http://judiciary.senate.gov/...

http://www.urban.org/...

if you require more statistics i assume you know how to use google.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/30/2006 04:25 AM     
  Its all to easy...  
 
Well as you know there Millions of people in this country as it is. And if the "illegal" workers work so hard here, why cant they do it in there country where they arent "illegal". And come to the USA legally? It would make everything a lot easier if they all did it legally. I am all for imagration, but when they come here "illegaly" and send money back to there country for there families? What is all that about, is there family all disabled or something? So not that they are taking from are government, but they are also taking from the millions of people how are legal citizens.
 
  by: dxman4789   03/30/2006 06:19 AM     
  @dxman4789  
 
your solution over-simplifies the issue to the point of not even addressing the issue. your questions have answers. in fact, the answers are so easy i'm afraid i won't be able to get into them without being completely condescending. instead of acquiring your hatred i'll simply suggest you take a trip to tijuana. any question you just asked will be explained then.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/30/2006 12:59 PM     
  ...  
 
Mexico is so poor even the dirt up and left.
 
  by: Emp3r0r     03/30/2006 02:45 PM     
  @manila  
 
I present my opinions with certainty, because I am confident of them being logical and having a sound base. That is different than presenting them as fact - I never claim they are, and I will always consider a challenge to them. I will also call a spade a spade when someone appeals to emotion, and simply because I dismiss one argument does not mean I dismiss all, nor is it some kind of personal affront.

Now, your numbers are actually a simple answer to an overly simplistic point which I am not making. Essentially, they respond to the argument of "Illegal aliens contribute nothing to the system!" with an answer of "Yes they do!"

Source 1: A piece, full of loaded terms and emotional appeals for pity, opposing the bill in question. I do not support the bill, as I've said. It does provide the Greenspan quote, but with no more context than you provided and even more rhetoric. I will get to those numbers later.

Source 2: A nice advocacy piece, but certainly no more an unbiased look at the issue than the first. Again, the economics are there, but the presentation is not exactly unopinionated, to say the least.

Source 3: This might be useful, if it weren't so long. Honestly, I do not have the time to go through this source now, but maybe I will when I get my internet back at home and I have a free weekend.

The problem with the numbers you've cited is that that they do not address the results of illegal immigration, which are depressed wages due to an abundance of easily exploited people and corrupt businesses that needn't reform because there is no shortage of people to do their jobs, and needn't work with unions for the same reason. This ultimately is leading to the destruction of the middle class, as those blue-collar jobs are being eaten up by people kept at the poverty level.

"greenspan says immigrants, including illegals..."

Already the figures are compromised, because you are including legitimate immigrants who pay into the system as others do. Again, the problem is not legal immigrants, so they should not be included in the numbers.

"contribute $70 billion and use $43 billion in services. where's this drain you're talking about?"

Disregarding the dilution of the problem group with a non-problem group, to say they are a drain on the system is not to say that they put NOTHING back in. How much would this be if these were legal Americans being paid the proper wages above the table?

"billions of dollars are spent in sales tax and also unclaimed by illegals in tax refunds. additionally they contribute $2.7 billion to social security and $168 million to unemployment insurance taxes. these are two programs they can't even access."

So they are feeding the machine, so it is OK? What about the illegals who aren't paying taxes? Those who walk out of hospitals and, because they have no address, leave the bills behind? Simply because it can be shown that SOMETHING is going back into the system, it does not mean that everything is fine. Demand for labor directly influences cost of labor, and the dilution of our workforce with one which will work cheaper (or else) seems a pretty obvious problem. Someone who cares about these people ought to care that this is a population exploited by the upper ranks of this society. You've still not presented what you would see as an acceptable solution, but I can tell you that pretending there is no problem is certainly not it. Read the following, it sums of my view of the issue nicely:

http://www.commondreams.org/...
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/30/2006 09:50 PM     
  @Emp  
 
That is another negative consequence - for all that can be said about the US causing hardship in these countries, we only enable their governments to be disfunctional and not address the needs of their people by exploiting their poor.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/30/2006 10:29 PM     
  @moment  
 
"I present my opinions with certainty because I am confident of them being logical and having a sound base."

obviously your confidence was unfounded since your argument was baseless. you have presented no statistical info to back up your argument, yet label mine as "emotional rhetoric". i've successfully backed up my argument. seems you hold people to a higher standard than you do for yourself. hence, hypocrisy.

"Now, your numbers are actually a simple answer to an overly simplistic point which I am not making. Essentially, they respond to the argument of 'Illegal aliens contribute nothing to the system!' with an answer of 'Yes they do!' "

that has been your main argument. now that it's in trouble you're changing gears. these are your words:

"Mexico is unloading its poor on us, and it is high time something is done to stop it.

Regarding the issue as a whole, the only thing I really care about here is the effect on our economy and country as a whole.

We blame the poor when they burglarize houses, why not do the same when they collectively do so to a nation?

I said illegal immigration needs to stop because people living outside the system are draining it dry

is the US supposed to grin and bear picking up the slack until it collapses because we've not got the moral highground?

Their situation may be lamentable, but that does not mean that we have to look the other way when they begin to drag us down with them

A burglar sneaks into your house and takes what is yours. Illegal immigrants sneak into your country and also take what is yours."

as for my sources, yes some of them are slightly biased. finding an unbiased and reliable source on illegal immigration is even harder than finding one on abortion. i knew you wouldn't be happy with any source i presented so i suggested you search for yourself.

Source 1: simply to show you the greenspan quote was not from my own mind as you suggested. biased or not, the it is reliable enough to prove the quote was indeed real.

Source 2: once again, biased but reliable in the facts it displays. it sums up alot of info from the third source since i knew you'd complain about its length.

Source 3: yes it's long. fortunately, it's unbiased and reliable so we can overlook its aesthetic unpleasantries.

"The problem with the numbers you've cited is that that they do not address the results of illegal immigration, which are depressed wages due to an abundance of easily exploited people and corrupt businesses that needn't reform because there is no shortage of people to do their jobs, and needn't work with unions for the same reason. This ultimately is leading to the destruction of the middle class, as those blue-collar jobs are being eaten up by people kept at the poverty level."

third source

"Already the figures are compromised, because you are including legitimate immigrants who pay into the system as others do. Again, the problem is not legal immigrants, so they should not be included in the numbers."

actual numbers for undocumented workers are hard because they are, well, undocumented. the third source gets into this. from now on though i'd like to see some statistics and sources for any claim you make. otherwise i'll regard it as pure and unfounded speculation.

"What about the illegals who aren't paying taxes? Those who walk out of hospitals and, because they have no address, leave the bills behind? Simply because it can be shown that SOMETHING is going back into the system, it does not mean that everything is fine. Demand for labor directly influences cost of labor, and the dilution of our workforce with one which will work cheaper (or else) seems a pretty obvious problem. Someone who cares about these people ought to care that this is a population exploited by the upper ranks of this society."

statistics please. if you're concerned about these problems then make them citizens or documented workers. i never said there wasn't a problem. i've said we need reform so that the minority of these illegals who do commit crimes are able to be held responsible. however, this illegal immigrant problem is a mole hill made into a mountain to distract from the real causes of our economic and health care problems. there is a drain on this country and these people are not it. that's all i've ever said.

"You've still not presented what you would see as an acceptable solution, but I can tell you that pretending there is no problem is certainly not it."

never said there wasn't a problem. you're assuming my position is something other than what it is so you have something irrational to attack. as far as a solution goes, i think dedolito has a pretty good one in the thread i created in the forum. it doesn’t deport or jail illegal immigrants, and addresses the real issues of undocumented americans.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/31/2006 01:41 AM     
  @manila  
 
"Baseless?" Manila, you've not once actually summarized my argument accurately, you refuse to address what I actually say, and instead persist in telling me why my argument is. You've clearly have the counterargument of evil anti-immigrant racists like me in your mind, along with the standard talking points to trot out in response. When you cannot use them, you get testy and try to force my arguments into your little boxes. Most strawmen ARE baseless arguments, which is why people like you use them to score easy points. Not one of my quotes you listed even remotely reaches the conclusion of "Illegal immigrants contribute NOTHING to this country," and in every comment I've made, I've clarified this is not my point - at great length.

You continue to persist along this "Poor, persecuted me" line, claiming I've called all your arguments emotional rhetoric, which I've repeatedly pointed out was not the case. I hold you to the same standard I hold myself, which is to address the other person's ACTUAL points, and to present unbaised information in a useful form or at least a concise opinion. You've done neither, instead reframing if not utterly rewriting my arguments, countering with biased sources or sources so long as to be unusable to anyone not paid to read them. Your argument is vague, and all you've really done here is attack the opinions of others in ways that only hint at your view on or solution to the problem.

I outlined my specific argument, and citing a broad overview of the whole issue as a counterargument is completely counterproductive, save as a trap so you can later say "Well you didn't read it!" Quote something and back up your own arguments in a useful way. The ultimate irony is the claim that you've backed up your claims, then conceding that your primary source is wrong because the numbers are vague - talk about hypocrisy.

I did provide one source which quite nicely sums up my beliefs on this matter. This article was from a person on the sidelines of the issue, a Democrat published on Commondreams.org mirroring my own beliefs. If you think an unbiased opinion is hard to find for this issue or abortion, perhaps you ought to try not considering every single person as either one partisan or the other - extremist thought, to be sure. Read the article I posted, then get back to me if you can use a civil tone, because I've said all that I have to say on the matter. Obviously you cannot type and grind an axe at the same time, so try sitting and reading for a while.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/31/2006 02:26 AM     
  BTW  
 
"as far as a solution goes, i think dedolito has a pretty good one in the thread i created in the forum."

Thanks for pointing me to that...I agree with Dedolito 100%. That's funny, given the arguments that you insist I am making. You even quoted statements I made mirroring hers. Maybe if you had actually paid attention instead of trying to pick a fight, you would have had a clue as to where I stood.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/31/2006 03:07 AM     
  @moment  
 
i merely ask of you what you ask of me- factual evidence to support your claims. where are the statistics about illegals draining our economy, destroying the middle class, evading taxes, unpaid hospital bills, or any other claim you've made? your opinions or those of your source may very well be true, but opinions without facts are baseless.
 
  by: manilaryce     03/31/2006 03:27 AM     
  @moment  
 
sans the soultion, on which we all share, your perspective and accussations are not the same as dedolitos. not to mention, you've given away the ambiguity dedolito's been trying to maintain by labeling "her".
 
  by: manilaryce     03/31/2006 04:38 AM     
  @manila  
 
Firstly, I have no internet at home currently and my connection here at work is restricted, so data will have to wait. Sorry, there is nothing I can do about that. Secondly, I see nothing that Dedolito's said that I do not agree with or have contradicted, and I just reread the whole forum thread. Dedolito points out that we're only enabling Cetnral and South American governments to remain disfunctional, as do I. The plan Dedolito suggests is exactly what I think we need, based on the same conclusions I've drawn, though the idea of community service had not occured to me (only the inneffectiveness of fines and impracticality of deportation had). As I said, I agree completely with Dedolito (and I would know) - I'm sorry if that is not your understanding of it, but I cannot make that any more clear or simple. Perhaps you had better stop, reread, and rethink, because you are just plain wrong. Thirdly, I have no idea what you're talking about giving away Dedolito's "ambiguity." I recalled Dedolito to be female, so I used the pronoun "her." I've never seen Dedolito aggressively defending complete anonymity, and what business is it of yours, anyway? If the first part of your last comment amounts to "Nuh-uh!", the second amounts to "So there!" Can you please stop trying to pick these childish little fights? You're over a decade my senior, for crying out loud!
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/31/2006 08:10 PM     
  Well that's two...  
 
I always thought that both Dedolito and notalent were male. Oh well, live and learn lol..
 
  by: StarShadow     03/31/2006 08:32 PM     
  @Starshadow  
 
"Lol?" This is no laughing matter, Manila is right! I hear this is how Plamegate got started:

"Mr. Cheney, I'm sorry to interrupt your meeting, but Agent Plame is here to see you. She's waiting outside."

"I thought Agent Plame was male?"

"No sir, agent Plame is Joe Wilson's wife...D'oh!"

Can't you see how serious this is? I have to go to lunch and catch a flight to Argentina now before I am subpoenaed, so if you'll excuse me...
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     03/31/2006 09:06 PM     
  @moment  
 
all i'm looking for is accountablility. do you deny you've made claims that illegals are draining our economy, destroy the middle class, etc? neither dedolito nor i have made such claims. you're simply driving the argument towards the solution to which we have common ground rather than dwell on the statements you've made previous to getting there. if those statements were false then simply retract them, otherwise provide some proof. and the statement about ambiguity was made on dedolitos behalf. i could care less. for some reason dedolito prefers not to make sex, orientation, and age known. i recall that from another thread in the forum. dedolito seemed quite adamant about keeping those things private.

"You're over a decade my senior, for crying out loud!"

you're under 14? kudos on your vocabulary then, and don't let them work you too hard at the office.
 
  by: manilaryce     04/01/2006 12:52 AM     
  @manila  
 
You'll get accountability when I get my internet back. I can provide the number for SBC Yahoo if you care to bother them on my behalf. As for the comments, some are logical arguments (destruction of the middle class), others are claims needing proof (draining the economy). The former stand on their own merit, and were well outlined in the article I posted - there are no numbers which can prove or disprove the statements, you can only debate them which you seem adverse to doing. The core of the example statement is that cost of labor is determined by the supply of labor, and given the abundance and low cost of illegal immigrant labor, wages are depressed and the middle class dissolves into poor workers and rich managers (read the article, it's all there so I needn't reinvent the wheel). Will you not debate the logic of such statements because you know them to be true? I've already given my reason for not evidencing more specific financial claims, but some of them are founded in logic, as well. I refuted your Greenspan quote with the simple question of how much money would be going into the system if these were legal American workers receiving a legal wage, for example.

I've not claimed that Dedolito and I have made completely congruous statements, merely that I agree with what s/he has said. My perspective is such that I agree with Dedolito on every point s/he has made, pointed out to show the error of your characterization of my position. If you now want to pick the nits of the things Dedolito has not said which I did, fine, we'll deal with those.

There is no cover to blow for any of us here because no one knows a thing beyond what is on the visitor cards, so stop that foolishness. I recalled Dedolito was female, so I said it, and taking issue with it has got to be the silliest diversion I've ever seen in an argument here. By the way, 10 years your junior is 14?

Manilaryce's Visitor Card:
Gender: male
Age: 34
City: Torrance, CA
Country: USA

That is some funny math. Like I said, we know nothing about each other here, and ambiguity cannot be compromised by strangers. With all of that BS out of the way, I will deal with the actual issues that remain after the weekend.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     04/01/2006 01:36 AM     
  @moment  
 
"The former stand on their own merit, and were well outlined in the article I posted - there are no numbers which can prove or disprove the statements, you can only debate them which you seem adverse to doing"

no, i actually agree with a pro middle class immigration policy that gives illegal immigrants full labor rights and makes sure employers can't use deportation as a coercive tool, though i was hoping you'd look up the statistics yourself so you might see the additional effects in store. our entire economy is too reliant on undocumented workers now to do anything too drastic in the way of wages. raising them could also mean chaos for the middle class since they are reliant upon the goods and services they produce. coupled with the inevitable crisis of peak oil i'd say economic disaster is ahead. were our system structurally different i'd say it's a good plan as i'm partially marxist, though to me it seems idealistic within our current situation.

i also think there are greater threats to the middle class, such as wal-mart. if we're discussing the destruction of the middle class then we should do so honestly instead of picking an easy scapegoat. i think our main disagreement is that I don’t see the issue as being as big a threat as others.

"I recalled Dedolito was female, so I said it, and taking issue with it has got to be the silliest diversion I've ever seen in an argument here"

i originally mentioned this in one sentence as a passing thought. you've made it an issue and blown it up into something of a spectacle, dedicating paragraphs to it. i've said before, i could care less. btw i am capable of basic arithmetic. my shortnews profile isn't exactly as accurate as my drivers license.
 
  by: manilaryce     04/01/2006 03:34 AM     
  @moment  
 
i've dealt with sbc before. i'd advise you not to waste your money on dsl pro, and to request a "Preferential Bill Date" to avoid confusion. they'll waive the charge if you talk to the right person about their idiocy.
 
  by: manilaryce     04/01/2006 03:54 AM     
  @moment  
 
Just to clarify. If you think my position is vague I’ll excuse you this once. My attention towards the negative effects of this solution, while supporting it, is to counteract the arguments you’ve used in favor of it. My reasons for supporting it are very different from your own. It seems your reasons are based in the ideas that illegals are a “drain” or that latino groups against the very same bill you’re against are “rabid”. I bring up negative effects as well as positive ones because that is the reality of this proposal. It is not the life raft you make it out to be for this crippled middle class. And no, you have not refuted Greenspan since you have not provided any evidence to the contrary of his quote. You must remember that the moment illegals become legal more will start using social programs. I actually know a few illegals myself who do not use welfare though they are eligible. If they were to become legal there’s no doubt they’d make use of social programs since the fear of deportation is no longer there. If you can find real stats to refute Greenspan’s quote, that take the negative effects of legalization into account, then do so. Truthfully, there are millions who could benefit from social security and welfare, but don’t. I’d also like to add that your criticism of me not addressing the argument is absurd. All of your posts have been sheer opinion, and your only critiques have been of me, not my argument. You can call me childish or vengeful and grind that axe of hypocrisy all you want. It’s amusing to see you become the very thing you’ve denounced.
 
  by: manilaryce     04/01/2006 01:21 PM     
  @moment  
 
Additionally, the Greenspan quote said nothing about the quantity of production immigrants and illegals produce, he merely stated that they do produce. Therefore your claim of refutability is improper. To truly refute his statement you’d have to prove illegals are a “drain” as you’ve claimed. All in all, i suggest you retract that comment unless you want to take up the heavy task of proving it.

Now to show you what a nice guy I am I’ve even done the research for you. Here are two parts of the third link I posted which back up my position.

“There is no strong evidence that immigration reduces overall availability of jobs or wages. Immigrants may reduce the employment opportunities of low-skill workers, however, especially in areas where the local economy is weak and immigrants are concentrated. Immigration does not hurt the job prospects of African Americans as a whole, but it reduces their economic opportunities in areas of high immigration during recessionary periods. New immigrants appear to hurt the overall labor market chances of one population group—the immigrants who immediately preceded them. Immigration may also be altering the movement of native workers into and out of high-immigration areas.

Immigrants contribute substantially to the U.S. economy. They create more jobs than they themselves fill. They do so directly by starting new businesses and indirectly through their expenditures on U.S. goods and services.”

“Immigration has no discernible effect on wages overall, as a number of recent studies agree (Table B-2). Wage growth and decline appear to be unrelated to immigration—a finding that holds for both unskilled and skilled workers (Butcher and Card 1991). And a study of state-level wage declines over a 13-year period finds no evidence that immigration is a factor (Vroman and Worden 1992). Indeed, wage growth is no slower and may be faster where immigration rates are high than where they are low (Enchautegui 1993).”

As I’ve stated, the effect on the middle class is common sense, but it’s not nearly large enough to be considered an actual threat. The only real threat I see, which seems to really affect people, is a cultural one. I am not accussing you of racism, but suggesting the majority of people against illegals do so for racial reasons and disguise them with economic ones. Facts are then twisted to put a rational face on the argument. "They're taking our jobs! They're driving down wages! They're creating crime!" are all untrue statements used to bring out the closet fears of white america. If you want to read more on the stats and my position you have my respective link as well.
 
  by: manilaryce     04/02/2006 09:46 AM     
  @manila  
 
The SBC problem turned out to be my housemate not paying the bill on time, so it is just a matter of when they connect our service again. He's passing the bill management on to me now, lest this happen again. For now, they sure seem to be taking their sweet time getting around to it - it's been nearly a month. I, for one, am getting twitchy.

Now, we seem to be nearing a conclusion on this matter, so I would like to clear up a few things, as well. We both have a number of reasons for our positions here. Mine are not solely the negative reasons you focus on, just as yours is not an utter denial of a problem. I will not retract previous statements of those reasons, because I am not peddling these as Fact or Truth, and last I knew, we could still offer well-reasoned (and I maintain that they are) opinions in the absence of a clear situation.

This is why I reject your Greenspan quote and consider it, at very least, discredited. The situation is unclear because we are talking about a population who cannot be accurately be surveyed or assessed because of their status, and thusly a snippet of a statement on the matter by even an economic wizard will not do it justice or provide the final word. I have pointed out why I think it inadequate, especially since I have never asserted that illegals do not produce at all, which is the only statement it could rebut. I have said that the way illegals exist outside the system drains it, but that does not mean they do not contribute at the same time, merely that they do not contribute what their legal couterparts would.

Frankly, I think America is going to need some hardship in days ahead to fix problems like this. Our appetite for convenience has put us into a difficult situation, and like an obsessive overeater who decides to cut back, if we want to get anywhere we are going to have to be hungry for a while. As I said to tellgar in the forum, I think people will pay more to get back on track, but I think they would make due regardless. I think what most people take issue with on this issue are:

1) The broken system, the irritation with people who would advocate keeping it broken, and the flagrant abuses of that system.
2) The effect this population has on wages and employment. Businesses SHOULD be paying legal wages, regardless of how much it hurts the consumer to make it so. Employment should not be reduced anywhere, even if only in places of illegal immigrant concentration.
3) Racism and xenophobia, which are certainly factors for some people. Is this true of the majority? Maybe so, who's to say?
4) Exploitation of people while enabling disfunctional governments, as covered in the forum.

Finally, my antipathy for Latino advocates in this area are not a reason for my position as you say, but rather a point of irritation which I thought relevant. I am not about to hold a population responsible for their special interest groups, who are often extremist.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     04/03/2006 07:46 PM     
  @moment  
 
very well. however, due to any real evidence i have come across over the years i still maintain that immigrants are not the cause of our economic drain. any study i have seen to the contrary is always suspiciously funded by anti-immigration groups or far right interests. yet, as you have stated, the stats on undocumented workers specifically are not solid enough to give full support to either of our positions. though, when you have time to read the third link i think your perception on the issue may be influenced further by the facts we do know. in the meantime, there is no point in dragging this out since we've come to an acceptable compromise. hopefully you'll get your internet back so i can continue arguing with you.
peace
 
  by: manilaryce     04/03/2006 09:34 PM     
 
 
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