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09/06/2006 09:32 PM ID: 56796 Permalink   

Bush Acknowledges Secret Prisons

 

"Our security depends on getting this kind of information," President Bush said of the secret CIA prison program used to interrogate key terror suspects. Foreign suspects were held outside the US, 14 of which now face trial in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The administration had not acknowledged these prisons, which received international criticism, existed until these prisoners were turned over to Pentagon control for prosecution. The Pentagon also has banned several abusive interrogation techniques.

Noting some Al-Queda members will have fewer protections, changes forbidding inhumane treatment or punishment of detainees were made. These include sexual humiliation, use of dogs, "water boarding," mock executions, and shocks, burns, or beatings.

 
  Source: today.reuters.com  
    WebReporter: MomentOfClarity Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  100 Comments
  
  Well..  
 
"Our security depends on getting this kind of information," /agree

Even if they beating the sh*t out of them, if it saves any americans from harm, go for it.
 
  by: digital_darkness   09/06/2006 10:18 PM     
  Ah yes..  
 
Secret prisons, just what every democratic and above all, free, country needs. I'm sure there will be some loud 'ends justifies the means' arguments on this item.
 
  by: StarShadow     09/06/2006 10:19 PM     
  As I thought..  
 
That didn't take long..
 
  by: StarShadow     09/06/2006 10:20 PM     
  @digital_darkness  
 
I say if beating the shit out of you saves American lives, go for it.
I wonder what information you could give.
 
  by: GodLoki   09/06/2006 10:22 PM     
  Just something to think about  
 
Put yourself into the shoes of an insurgent or "terrorist". Lets say you have been fighting against the egyptian gov for years and are captured. They hand you over to the US because your group has links to al-qaeda or however you spell it. Anyhow you start getting tortured by CIA opratives or people trained by the CIA. Lets say you die while being tortured. We know this has happened in Abu Graihb so its very probable to happen with these prisons.

Just imagine the last thing to go through their mind the instant before death. Im betting they were thinking that they were right for doing what they did simply by seeing what a "democratic society" does to people it captures.

Right here is a major reason why they hate us so much. Al Zawahiri was said to be tortured and this is what made him even more radical than he was before. If anything we are creating an even more dangerous world with our actions.

flame on!
 
  by: slavefortheman     09/06/2006 10:32 PM     
  The next step..  
 
will be Bush acknowledging that he "paid" through college and admitting that he is a missing a few chromosomes.
 
  by: x5o2x     09/06/2006 10:34 PM     
  bleh...  
 
I've never liked a secret prison, because you don't need one unless you're doin something wrong.
 
  by: splicer   09/06/2006 10:46 PM     
  @starshadow, the issue  
 
I'm really beginning to think that some people just get off on the idea that they are part of the righteous in the battle of good versus evil. Thusly, buying into arguments like Digital's lets them enjoy the excitement of such fictions. The Right constantly accuses the Left of being armchair generals in this war, but perhaps people like this on the Right simply enjoy being armchair soldiers. Maybe, for some, it's not really about fear and all about vicarious crusading - like the one in the White House. "Bring 'em on."

As for the issue, my first reaction is to applaud the administration for fessing up to something and prohibiting something even worse. Then I realize that this is like applauding a 12 year-old for not using crayons on the walls. That my government had to ban these things is saddening, and that some defend them frightening.
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/06/2006 10:49 PM     
  this was reported on by geraldo  
 
who then drew a detailed map on live television of the location of these secret prisons
 
  by: ManilaRyce     09/06/2006 11:01 PM     
  the issue  
 
I personally believe that there is a pervasive belief in American lives being worth more. It's not bad; certainly all people relate better to those who are similar. It is disappointing though. It seems that in the end much of our supposedly progress and advantaced society merely pays lip service to notions of equality. I think these cases are extreme manifestations of this. Some are ok with brutalizing foreign lives for even the tenuous possibility of protecting American lives.
 
  by: bane39   09/06/2006 11:04 PM     
  digital_darkness  
 
Secret prisons will not save US citizens from harm; they will only harm US citizens in the long run. Everyone in our country is so scared of terrorism that they have forgotten what this country is all about, freedom. That freedom includes the freedom from a secret prison system brought to us by the method of due process.
 
  by: banshee9898     09/06/2006 11:22 PM     
  nooooooo  
 
dont hurt the poor innocent terrorists who want to kill us...that would be mean. Go hug a tree.
 
  by: digital_darkness   09/06/2006 11:25 PM     
  Insults  
 
are just substitutes of knowledge...
 
  by: banshee9898     09/06/2006 11:43 PM     
  ...  
 
If it becomes acceptable to have secret prisons to hold terrorists...that will lead to having secret prisons for other "criminals"

As mentioned by others here...Americans fear has cost them their freedoms.
 
  by: vollord   09/06/2006 11:45 PM     
  Digital Darkness  
 
You are right. They should not harm the terrorists. Before the "war on Terror" there were NO terrorist attacks in the US and very few in the Middle East. Although nothing happened after 9/11 (which is good) many other countries have suffered and mostly countries in the Middle East. What did bush do to help them? he fanned the flames and kept on going on and on about the same old b*llsh!t and more suffer thanks to him. And he knows the mess he made, at least he knows egyptian resorts are no longer safe for his little girls to vacation in.
 
  by: DarkAngelJG     09/06/2006 11:46 PM     
  We’re batting 900, anybody for 1000?  
 
Looks like the only "conspiracy theory" left is the one about Bush and Co. being the masterminds and guilty parties in the 9/11 plane crashes. One after another the domino’s fall, piece after piece, the puzzle comes together.

They use suicide bombers, we use secret prisons and torture. Is this a contest to see who can sink the lowest? I was raised to believe “the American way” was better than this, to maintain high morals, to be proud to be an American. I am ashamed of our government. Looks like “our security” comes at the cost of our honor and dignity. You reap what you sew.
 
  by: valkyrie123     09/06/2006 11:58 PM     
  Oh hey  
 
Which is worse

1) brutal beatings, burns, amputations, followed by decapitation

or

2) Sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, humiliation, followed by prosecution and jail

Every country has it's secret prisons, just as every country has its secret service, black-ops troops and cladestine operations. Welcome to the real world. The US got caught, because right now the spotlight is on the US and everyone is analysing everything down to the smallest grain.

Here's a heads up. Torture goes on in every country - unfortunately we don't have mind reading technology yet, and our socio-political enemies don't just volunteer information.

If you have a better suggestion, that would work, I'm all ears.

Here's food for thought - do you think those terrorists arrested in pakistan, that gave up the information that stopped the attacks on flights leaving the uk recently (real attacks, with real explosives and real terrorists) just volunteered that information?
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 12:00 AM     
  @darkangel  
 
Actually, there was plenty of terrorist activity with-in the US, and other countries prior to 9/11 and the "War on Terror".

The US did not create these terrorist organisations - Al Queda existed before 9/11, as did a number of other Islamic terrorist organisations.

In 1997 Usama bin Laden charged every dutiful muslim everywhere to put every effort into killing Americans - civilians and military, men, women and children alike. In that statement he told the Islamic world that killing an american was more important that any other activity that effort could be expended on. This was FOUR years before 9/11.

 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 12:04 AM     
  @valkyrie  
 
Have you watched men in black?

Do you remember the line that goes something like "There is always some spaceship in orbit poised to destroy the earth, the only thing that enables everyone to go about their lives is that they don't know about it"?

So now you've seen the sordid underbelly of reality. It isn't a perfect world, and it never can be - human nature will always get in the way. You have 3 choices then:

1. Way of the leaf - do nothing to protect and defend lest you infringe the rights of your enemy. Do not take a life to save a life, nor harm a life to prevent harm to another.

2. Way of the tree - protect and defend only against visible and active threats. Take no action to identify threats before they occur.

3. Way of warrior - protect and defend against active and visible threats. Attempt to identify and discover new threats using the means necessary but only as necessary.

As long as there is division between beliefs and principles that keeps people from accepting each other, as long as one group of people can see themselves as superior to another, and as long people want what other people have, there will be strife, conflict and war. As long as there is strife, conflict, and war, there will be a need for the dirty business - spying, abduction, interrogation, and torture.

 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 12:18 AM     
  Incomplete but interesting  
   
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 12:21 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
I think you forgot one:

4. Way of the paranoid schizophrenic: protect and defend against threats real and imagined. Presume that everyone is out to get you and select to interpret all intelligence as evidence of clear and present danger. Meanwhile, assure your constituents that you are the leaf, the tree, and the warrior, depending on the crowd you are preaching to.
 
  by: Dedolito     09/07/2006 12:41 AM     
  @dedolito  
 
Fair enough, however I'm sort of addressing the 'Secret Prisons' issue, not the style of Bullshit Administration.

 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 01:16 AM     
  heh  
 
could probably still apply, just change "constituent" to "media-outlet-that-has-discovered-your secret-prison"

 
  by: Dedolito     09/07/2006 01:23 AM     
  @lauriesman: it's torture not my boarding school  
 
Which is worse
1) brutal beatings, burns, amputations, followed by decapitation
or
2) Sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, humiliation, followed by prosecution and jail

I don't know what you think we're Not capable of, it's a lot more than option 2.

In Israel and Turkey, this kind of torture is not even a secret. The photos you saw from Abu Ghraib was the daily routine humiliation. Do you forget the deaths occured there as well?

But I see we agree that torture happens everywhere, as long as we don't demonise the nutcases on Jihad videos sticking shish skewers in our soldiers' ears - you just blew away their village, invaded their country, tortured their soldiers - god forbid any of them were civilians. And we justify it.
 
  by: redstain   09/07/2006 01:42 AM     
  digital_darkness  
 
Go hug a neo-con. You know you want to.
 
  by: FoxSecurity   09/07/2006 01:46 AM     
  digital_darkness: sympathy for the devil  
 
They say all's fair in love and war (and we're talking about war right now).

I'm *WOULD BE* willing to play it by digital_darkness' rules. We say nothing about 'secret prisons', and he won't bitch when some green bandana'd nut starts torturing on video broadcasts.

The trouble is, when we see captured troops on TV and our mothers screaming to get their boys home - he's gonna be dead silent about justifying 'anything goes' rhetoric.
 
  by: redstain   09/07/2006 01:54 AM     
  @redstain  
 
1. What we are capable of, and what we choose not to do are two different things.

2. There is a distinct difference between acknowledging what goes on and justifying or condoning it. Just as there is a stark difference between the ideal world and the real one.

Less than 5 deaths have occured at Abu Grahib, more than 50 captives have been tortured and executed by insurgents. Two wrongs don't make a right.

It's a chicken and the egg debate - who maimed who first?

Interpolate your attitude and see where it leads.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 03:36 AM     
  to all those Bushites....  
 
What happens when "suspected" American citizens start disappearing into these secret prisons? I love my country but I hate what we are becoming.---nuff said
 
  by: judgedread   09/07/2006 03:55 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
I don't think there is much room for pragmatism in human rights.

Yes it is an ideal, but it is an ideal we should all strive for.

PS. I don't like your definition of the warrior. I've had my time studying Kongo Zen and the Go Rin no Sho! I think that actively seeking threats brings threats that would not have existed or materialised if you had been passive. (If you don't go to the mountain, you will never meet the tiger. heheheheh...)

IMHO, the torture and secret prisons are the CIA's response to the terrorism threat because of the lack of true intelligence in the middle east.
 
  by: jendres     09/07/2006 04:09 AM     
  lauriesman  
 
Yeah we can go around torturing and pointing guns at people to make them do what we want (like give us information), but we all know this is flawed. Doesn't this method only breed more animosity and make the problem bigger?

Maybe a better way to convince anyone to your way of thinking is to make them think that they thought of it themselves; in essence to ally with them (as taught in Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People). This isn't nearly as easy to learn as brute force of course, but it always works where force always fails in the end. I don't believe there's any reason to torture or kill an ally.
 
  by: banshee9898     09/07/2006 04:25 AM     
  @jendres, @banshee  
 
JENDRES:
Unless the tiger comes to you, and you're totally oblivious to it.

However, I only chose 'warrior' as it was a suitable label for the approach, it is not a definition of an actual warrior.

BANSHEE:
Unforunately, not all people are open to diplomatic moves, particularly those who are persuing an alterior agenda. Do you think you can convince Usama or Alzaqari that peace was their own idea?

In order for diplomacy to succeed, the negotiator MUST be able to offer something that the other side wants. If this is not possible, he must make them THINK they want it first, then show that he can offer it.

Usama wants one thing : Dead Americans. He does not want peace, he could care less whether Iraq is stable or not, so long as it doesn't interfere with his quest to destroy America. This is the purpose of Al Quaeda. What can you offer a terrorist group, what can you pursuade them with or to, when their sole goal is to see you, your family, and your country dead and destroyed?
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 05:03 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
if you are totally oblivious to it... Now why would you be oblivious to it? Because you spent to much time watching MTV? Focused to hard on making cash? Preoccupied with the self and not being aware of your surrounds. That is not warrior like. (Now who am i talking about?)

I stand by my interpetation, remaining vigilant doesn't mean actively seeking out threats using whatever means are available.
 
  by: jendres     09/07/2006 05:35 AM     
  @banshee9898 / GodLoki  
 
"Everyone in our country is so scared of terrorism that they have forgotten what this country is all about, freedom."

PLEASE speak for yourself. People I know aren't afraid of terrorism but in fact view it as a threat and want it dealt with. Unlike some spineless people who believe we should talk and offer them a McDonalds burger in hopes they will go away, there are many that believe we should do what ever it takes to get the job done. Their thought is eliminate the problem and that will make it go away. They don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
It is a shame we had to have secret prisons in the first place. They should be right out front for all to view and let everyone know when you get caught this is what you face. Show them they are not getting the Executive room at the Hilton over looking the ocean like some would have it. But I guess with all the goodie two shoes and wimps running around we had no other choice but to make them secret. For some of us it is embarrassing to see grown American's cower and cry " We shouldn't do that, it isn't nice"! Meanwhile the same people close their eyes while they slit the throat of one of ours. Then justify the terriost act by pushing blame on us for making that happen.
However what is scary and dangerous,is there are Americans who just don't get it. They fail to realize the threat is real and we are at war, not romper room. Instead people like yourself are more worried about slapping them around in a prison.
It appears to me "EVERYONE" you refer to is actually you and the likes of you who are afraid of these people. NOT EVERYONE!
And please don't give me the BS about freedom, rights and what we stand for. These are just sad excuses for gutless wonders. These people want to kill you and they do not follow the rules of engagement and neither should we. We should unleash our power and show them there is no contest, it's time to put their toys away and go home before they don't have a home to go to.
But instead we play with child like toys instead of fighting fire with fire and wipe em out. I don't know where come from, but I travel up and down the east coast 5 days a week and talk with people across this country. Other then on this board, most I talk with could care less about these secret prisons. Torture yeah right. Those people give the word a new meaning.

"Maybe a better way to convince anyone to your way of thinking is to make them think that they thought of it themselves; in essence to ally with them"
*ROFLMAO* Sorry I was just thinking about what you said.

@GodLoki
"I say if beating the shit out of you saves American lives, go for it.
I wonder what information you could give."

Everything I need to know!

 
  by: hellblazer     09/07/2006 06:28 AM     
  @jendres  
 
So you hear a tiger coming - do you attempt to find out how many tigers? where they are coming from? whether they are tracking a particular person or tribe, or just passing through after different prey. Do you sit and wait to find out, or do you actively identify what threat they pose to you and how best to counter them?
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 06:42 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
I suggest we randomly maim kittens, just in case one of them has heard about the tigers too. We have to, to protect our way of life. Maim kittens.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 07:47 AM     
  @Ec  
 
The US does not indescriminately target civilians - either as military targets or intelligence targets.

I'm not sure what you are aluding to.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 07:50 AM     
  @hellblazer  
 
Yes, yes, and some people put on great shows of aggressive masculinity to hide that they are really terrified of what they cannot control. Of course, these are the people who eventually get their asses handed to them by more patient, smarter adversaries - Al-Queda, for example. They are not where we're focusing our efforts, and they know that our government is too stubborn, corrupt, and ill-informed to deal with their tactics. They rely not on the pacifists, but the pugilists like yourself, to humiliate the US and permit ineffective hacks to pursue them. They can count on you to support a government which makes enemies of allies, giving them ample places to hide and plentiful recruits.

This war requires smarter techniques than, "Let's go kick their asses!" While you prepare to deflect bullets, they poison your food. When your sidekick warns you, you say, "Back off, wimp, I need this food to make me stronger!" And you take a big old bite...what a man. A stupid man, a dead man, but a man no less.

"And please don't give me the BS about freedom, rights and what we stand for. These are just sad excuses for gutless wonders."

Like the founding fathers, who were just too gutless to establish a proper totalitarian system?

What could possibly be more indicative of a sad, flag-waving pseudo-patriot than your statement above? You're so frightened, you will not even stand up for our nation's principles. Al-Queda set out to destroy what we stand for and show the world our hypocrisy, and you provide corroborating statements for them. Bravo...
 
  by: momentofclarity     09/07/2006 07:57 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
Did you forget that none of the prisoners in these secret prisons were conviced? What gives you the right to convict them?
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 07:57 AM     
  @Lauriesman  
 
"So you hear a tiger coming - do you attempt to find out how many tigers? where they are coming from? whether they are tracking a particular person or tribe, or just passing through after different prey. Do you sit and wait to find out, or do you actively identify what threat they pose to you and how best to counter them?"

And by the latter, of course, you mean spray the area where you suspect the tiger to be lurking with gunfire. Let's not pretend that the tactics currently used in the War on Terror are much more than this.

How about we actually figure out if it IS a tiger first? Why not, instead of wasting our time shooting at a sound we think is a tiger, we worry about the snake hissing above our heads? I think, in the jungle that is the world, it might just be best to try to protect our camp rather than charging off in the brush after everything that sounds like a tiger because, let's face it, we want to shoot a tiger.
 
  by: momentofclarity     09/07/2006 08:08 AM     
  @ec  
 
They weren't just picked up at the corner store on the off-chance they might know some terroristy information - the majority are either known terrorists, colluders, or enemy combatants.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 08:51 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
it would depend on the situation. If you are in a walled fort, with soldiers passive but at the ready in the guard towers, and you already know what a tiger is, then you don't have to head out and learn more about it. You know you are already safe with the measures you've already taken. You don't need to send a scouting party out to learn more about the tiger, for even if there is an entire pride of them, they aren't a threat to you unless you go out and provoke them.
 
  by: Dedolito     09/07/2006 08:57 AM     
  oh and..  
 
"the majority are either known terrorists, colluders, or enemy combatants."

the ones that are being shipped to Guantanamo I am relativly confident are as you say. How many were/are in the secret prisions taht are not? How many from Guantanamo did we end up shipping back because they weren't terrorists? More than we kept. Just people in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
  by: Dedolito     09/07/2006 08:59 AM     
  @moc  
 
Actually, the tactics currently in use are as precise as they can be given current technological limitations.

The US employs a full arsenal of intelligence gathering tactics including passive and active monitoring, deep cover operatives, targeted abductions, cross communication with other intelligence departments including those of other countries (this has been improved dramatically since 9/11), psychological techniques et al.

It is hardly indescriminate, although its global in scope. A lot of it would no doubt be deemed illegal or disclaimed by the host countries were it to come to light - but there is collusion at the top intelligence levels to let it happen.

BTW, as a note of interest, the british SAS pioneered the use of sexual humiliation as a technique to break the reserve of male prisoners.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 09:03 AM     
  @dedolito  
 
Hmm, but how does a walled fort translate to a country... you can't really prevent the tigers getting in or out - particularly as you have potential tigers living within the walls as well as outside them.

In other words, how do you propose to keep terrorists out of a country when they are both already inside the country, and able to enter (the less work you do to identify the terrorists the easier it is to enter).

 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 09:11 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
Please stop making things up to prove your points. You cannot know that these people are guilty, so do not act as though they had this coming.
As for 'hardly indiscriminate' combat. For the record, most people disagree with you that carpet bombing qualifies as subtle and cautious.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 09:15 AM     
  @dedolito 2  
 
Re Guantanamo: this is what I mean by technological limitations. We can't just point a device at someone and have it read terrorist or not-terrorist, those that honestly had no suspicious background were released pretty much unharmed. The vast majority of torture occurs against prisoners that DO have suspicious links in who they are and who they know or where they have been. It is the intelligence agents best interests to focus on only those individuals that are likely to yield valuable information. Innocents get sent to prison, heck innocents have been executed and then pardoned posthumously in the civil world, it is foolish to expect 100% accuracy in the intelligence world.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 09:17 AM     
  @momentofclarity  
 
What can I say other then your one of the goodie two shoes,I talked about in my previous post.
frightened? I think not. I do not get frighten by threats I eliminate them and thank them for letting me know what way their coming from.
Don't get my words confused with your feelings and try bringing me into your fairy tale world of dreams, Im not as naive as some to think these threats aren't real and I am not stupid enough not to act on them.

"aggressive masculinity to hide that they are really terrified of what they cannot control."

Oh we can control it, so there is nothing to fear except for thoughts of people like yourself. If push comes to shove that place will be nothing more then a night light.

"This war requires smarter techniques than, "Let's go kick their asses!"

Oh do tell, what's the plan? You don't want to offer them the hamburger do you?

"While you prepare to deflect bullets, they poison your food."

The way you think, that is a probability. If it was my choice they would have about two minutes to execute their plan.

"Like the founding fathers, who were just too gutless to establish a proper totalitarian system?"

Word it however and whatever makes you feel better.
But Our founding fathers were the first to fight using guerrilla type warfare. No rules of engagement. That is why we won! Just played to win. But of course we didn't have goodie two shoes running around worring about the rights of the enemy and what other countries may have thought of us.
I wonder if any of these terriost groups give our rights a thought? Do you think they loose any sleep over it? Could you imagine how they would appear if they did? Do you think they care what the rest of the world thinks.

"Al-Queda set out to destroy what we stand for"

And you are correct. So again I ask. What is your plan to stop this. Invite them over for tea and a chat? Or shall we stand there like idiots and allow them to blow up our people with their little toy bombs and trucks while we stand helpless bound by the rules of engagment. When we have enough power to put an end to this in hours. Don't you think we should unleash at least some of our power and show them this will not happen again. Maybe if we did we wouldn't need these secret prisons in the first place.









 
  by: hellblazer     09/07/2006 09:20 AM     
  @ec  
 
Hmm, I'm not aware of ongoing carpet bombing in Iraq, or conducted over civilian areas by the US - can you provide a source for this?

I'm not saying they aren't innocent, nor am I saying they are guilty - I'm simply pointing out a reality as opposed to an ideal.

In an ideal world, innocent people wouldn't go to prison (secret or otherwise), but they do. In an ideal world, everyone would get along and there wouldn't been any need for secret prisons in the first place. In an ideal world cotton candy would grow on trees and wouldn't cause tooth decay - okay, maybe not the last, but you get the point. And in case you didn't the point is this: sometimes ugly things have to happen, to ensure even uglier things don't. If you can think of a sure fire way to uncover terrorists and their networks before they can cause death, or destruction to tens or tens of hundreds of innocent civilians, then you're in the wrong job. The CIA is always open for intelligent applicants.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 09:23 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
It's nice to see that there is someone else in these political comment posts that can objectively speak his opinions and base them on facts. GREAT points, bro! I tip my hat to you. Some of the conspiracy-theory wing-nuts in this forum are hard to reach, but keep trying.

Toward the top, I read a half-hearted attempt to defend the actions of Al Zawahiri. Get real!!! That idiot kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded Nick Berg!! They sick asses even filmed it and released it to the public!! Nick wasn't a soldier! What was the point of that??

How can any of you defend those that indiscriminately kill?? Remember the thousands of civilians, women, and children that died on 9/11? How do you defend that? How do you say that was America's fault???

If it takes secret prisons to prevent another 9/11 or other actricious acts by these villians, I say do it!! Build hundreds of them. If you spend your whole life trying to kill people people because of their ethnic bachground, race, religion, etc, you deserve torture before death.
 
  by: carnold     09/07/2006 09:24 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
As you well know, a lot of the tactics employed by the US military are rather indiscriminate. Carpet bombing was used in the Gulf War and in the Vietnam War. Israel effectively used the technique to attack Hamas.
You know this. Please stop trying to ignore these things.

The same applies to secret prisons. Without trials and proof, these people are innocent by law, and shouldn't be mistreated.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 09:34 AM     
  @Ec5618  
 
"Carpet bombing was used in the Gulf War and in the Vietnam War. Israel effectively used the technique to attack Hamas."
That's war, pal. If someone is way bigger than me, I know better to go up to that person and pick a fight. By that measure, the terrorists shouldn't be stupid enough to fly airplanes into our buildings. By doing that, THEY picked the fight. We merely intend on finishing it. With bombs, bullets, and anything else it will take to get the job done.
While you found bombings offensive, I noticed you didn't make mention of the chemical weapons used against the US during the Gulf War.

"Without trials and proof, these people are innocent by law, and shouldn't be mistreated."
I never saw a trial for those they kidnapped, tortured, and mutilated. I never saw trials for the voters they put bullets through, simply because they were in line to vote for their new government. I never saw a trial for the mothers, fathers, and children that perished because they happened to be in a public market when a car bomb went off.
Those people are savages. They don't have rights.
 
  by: carnold     09/07/2006 09:52 AM     
  @carnold  
 
Funny. In the same breath, you're arguing two things. One, that 'the terrorists' don't fight fair, so you don't have to either. Two, that the terrorists are barbarians without rights.

Obviously, you are equally barbaric, and thus, you have no rights.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 09:56 AM     
  @ec  
 
So you can't or won't show where carpet bombing has been used by the US in Iraq (not once-off or ongoing), nor can you show where carpet bombing has occured over civilian areas - as this did not happen during the Gulf War, carpet bombing occured there but over military targets only.

The US does not like to waste expensive ordinance against civilian targets.

In strange that you would refer to 'rights' as if it were some static principle. Rights aren't and never have been - there are only a handful of universally held rights. The rest is just extended by culture and society. Your rights end whether the rights of another person begins. The police have the right to lie to a suspect - it's called reasonable deception - EVEN IF THAT PERSON TURNS OUT TO BE INNOCENT. It criminal and civil courts, lawyers don't present their case and then go after evidence, they go after evidence first. Are you suggesting a person has to blow up some people first BEFORE he can be interrogated for possible terrorist links or actions?
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 11:21 AM     
  I totally agree with EC5618  
 
(please leave the kittens out of this though!)
Lauriesman, that was an intersting (although missing alot more) link. My job is to analyse data, and jusat having a quick look i could see that the world was alot safer before bush took over!
animals will only attack you to protect themseloves or for food. The war on terror only aggrevated a beast that almost silent except for a few hits here and there. And yes, they are not convicted, a pakistani man was kept in Guant. for years (can't remember his name, but he is british) his family, amnesty international and many people demanded his release but no one responded, he was only released when the CIA decided he was "not a threat". He missed his wife giving birth and he missed his baby's first 2 or 3 birthdays and what was he doing? Deprived from sleeping, humiliated in ways against his religion and beliefs and beaten up to say the truth (not the real truth but what the guards wanted to hear). whenever he said he dopesn't know what they are talking about, he got more torture.
Humiliation might not sound bad, but for some people dignity is all they have specially middleeastern and asian people.
 
  by: DarkAngelJG     09/07/2006 11:33 AM     
  @Ec5618  
 
"Funny. In the same breath, you're arguing two things. One, that 'the terrorists' don't fight fair, so you don't have to either. Two, that the terrorists are barbarians without rights."

Hmmmm... I read and reread my post several times, but nowhere could I find the portion you're referring to. Perhaps you could help me out... Where did I say anything about "fighting fair", or attempted to extenuate or mitigate how we fought?

Secondly, could you define “fighting fair” within the context of a war, and how that definition excludes bombing campaigns of strategic targets?

In your posts, you shun the US for bombings, etc. War isn’t waged with rubber bullets and paint-ball guns. The ugly reality is that war is destructive and bloody. However, the US exercises restraint from using such weapons as nuclear and biological weapons – can you say the same for the Cretans you defend? Only during WWII did we use a nuclear weapon. Subsequent conflicts involving the US has never included mushroom clouds.

“Two, that the terrorists are barbarians without rights.”
You got that part right. I think paraphrasing my sentence and calling them “barbarians” is giving them too much credit, though. I like the word “scum”, better. Or how about “baby-and-mother-killing sickos”? The only right these people have is the right to a cold and dark cell in one of those secret prisons. :-)
 
  by: carnold     09/07/2006 01:08 PM     
  @carnold  
 
You advocate using the techniques you describe as barbaric.

You suggested that 'the terrorists' employ kidnapping, torture and mutilation. You suggest that this gives you every right to do the same. You call them barbaric, yet your own actions are those of heroes? How can you not see the irony in that?
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 01:21 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
I had no idea. And all this time you have been preaching your Christian morals. Rubbish. You should be ashamed. How about this “Way”, we act like upstanding human beings with caring for others. We treat those captured like human being, with respect and dignity, even when they act like terrorist. We refuse to lower ourselves to the level of crazed animals treating other human beings like garbage. We have become what we despise most, animals, garbage, not fit to further the human race. Is this what you think being a human being is all about? Is this what Jesus wanted for you? How about we buckle down and take a few lumps and give a few back but we don’t give up our honor, our dignity, our pride. We don’t torture anyone, we don’t violate any ones dignity. We act with dignity and respect. We EARN the respect and love of the world instead of their fear and disgust. This war against terror cannot be won on a battlefield. It can only be won in the hearts and minds of the people, all of the people. We have alienated the hearts and minds of much of the world. We have lost the war. We were looked upon as victims after 9/11. Now we are seen as terrorists in the eyes of the world. What happened? Where did we go wrong? We are now no different than the terrorist. This is just sick. If this is what “the American way” has become, it is no longer worth fighting for, for we have become one with the evil. We are no longer worthy. Shame is all we have left. Please go read your Bible again, there seem to be some important parts you missed.
 
  by: Valkyrie123     09/07/2006 01:43 PM     
  @valk  
 
That's why it's called devils advocate.

The point that I'm making is not that any of this is good, justifiable, morale or any that it meets any other standard. The point I'm making is that this does, and will go on for as long as their is conflict between people.

Answer? Teach all peoples, everywhere, to truly love and accept one another, and tolerate our differences, whatever they may be. Can it be done? That's the big question.

What I'm trying to do here is get people to look at the bigger picture - not just the fact that these prisons exist, or why they exist. The reasons why the reasons why they exist, exist. Look at human nature. Look at ourselves and everything we do, every minute, of every day. If we EVER wish ill on another person, for whatever they have done, then we are no better than Bush. It's just a line as to how far you personally will go to justify your actions.

You yourself admittedly despise the police, yet they are more obviously and tangibly contributing to YOUR safety and well being.

I could ask you thousands of questions to identify where your personal lines are drawn over thousands of different issues. I could ask a thousand people those same questions and get a thousand different answers. It all fundementally comes down to that.

What are our rights? What are the rights of others? Which takes precedent when rights conflict?

I'm sick of seeing people decry Bush, the war in Iraq, and umpteem other causes as if they had nothing to do with them, or as if they were any better!

By what stick, adn what standard do we measure ourselves? I know the horrible person I am, I know my own sins inside out and back to front and I know that I am human. I cannot justify my own existence, none of us can. We are none any better than anyone else yet we pass those judgements anyway.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 02:11 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
There's a difference between acting like a devil's advocate, and advocating what you have advocated in this thread.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 02:20 PM     
  lol @Ec5618  
 
"You suggested that 'the terrorists' employ kidnapping, torture and mutilation. You suggest that this gives you every right to do the same."

I suggest no such thing. I fail to see how sleep deprivation or humiliation (oooh! Those American are humiliating those poor terrorists!) can be lumped into the same category with mutilations, decapitations, and other extreme forms of physical torture that the terrorists have put their captives through. There's no comparison, so don't attempt to try one. If you can cite an example where extreme torture of this magnitude is currently being practiced by the US, please share.

However, I DO say that we have the right to blow them to hell wherever we find one of them. There's no torture in sending their sick asses back to Allah, is there? :D
 
  by: carnold     09/07/2006 02:27 PM     
  Where did we go wrong  
 
Let's narrow that question down a bit, since it's scope is SO broad. Yes, wars are won in the hearts and minds of people. The hearts and minds of people are directed by their perceptions, and what they are exposed to. In this case, the war was 'lost' by the media, our very own journalists and spokes people. It's a sad fact - particularly in America - that in order to be news worthy, something has to be destructive or sensational. Actually, lets take that and see where it goes.

The American society is largely based on internal antagonism. Looking from the outside, at least from my perspective, I seldom see anything on TV showing Americans building each other up, supporting one another, working together. America, to the outside world, is fractious and bitter. Everyone hates everyone else for one reason or another.

You consume, eagerly, what could be easily classed as the dregs of your society. From Geraldo to Springer, you're addicted to ripping at each other for just a taste of fame or fortune. So is it any wonder that your news media follows the same tactic to offer up morsels of vicious undermining for your consumption?

So poisoned by your own information, that large numbers actually support and believe in the plight of the terrorist against your own brothers and sisters!

For every innocent civilian killed by a US soldier, ten or twenty or thirty are killed by a terrorist. Yet when push comes to shove, you turn in self loathing and support the terrorist! 'We shouldn't be there', you say, 'It's not his fault he killed 30 of his people, he's just trying to defend his homeland'. And you continue to do this long after the reason for being there faded into unimportance. Who cares any more, it isn't important. The fact is YOU ARE THERE.

Mistakes were made, but crying over split milk never got it back in the bottle! Instead of bitching about the present and the past, you should be looking to the future. HOW CAN WE MAKE THIS SITUATION BETTER. WHAT CAN WE DO, SEEING AS WE ARE HERE ANYWAY, TO HELP OTHERS AND SHOW THE BEST ATTRIBUTES THAT HUMANITY HAS TO OFFER.

This won't happen, though, no no, these soldiers will come home and they will be reviled by their own country, just as the other vets are.

Efforts in Iraq could have turned out very differently, if you, as a people, had supported your troops and their efforts, vocally, visibily, proudly. Instead, political point scoring, opposition for the sake of opposition, and internal rivalry has defeated you on the global stage, where military might could not.

It's not your fault though, the pattern was set generations ago - the America of today is just the end product.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 02:35 PM     
  @ec  
 
I have advocated nothing. Read it again. What reality demands is the focus of my posts, and what I want or don't want doesn't come into it.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 02:39 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
"The US does not indescriminately target civilians - either as military targets or intelligence targets.

I'm not sure what you are aluding to."

I just wanted to point out the error in this statement. Actually after we invaded afgan in 2001, many people were detained simply on the ground that they were claimed to be terrorists by the northern alliance. We were paying the northern alliance 100$ per person they captured and many of these people were sent to guantanamo. Basically they were just randomly collecting people and handing them over to us for money... Unfortunatley many were inocent people that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and for several years we illegally held them without this magical thing we call "Due Process". A few of these people were UK citizens and several other western nations. The ones that were finally released said they went under severe torture from the american guards even though they had nothing to do with terrorism anywhere. Just goes to show you that everything you hear isnt true. Especially when you hear it from the mouth of one of our government officials.
 
  by: slavefortheman     09/07/2006 02:58 PM     
  @carnold / lauriesman  
 
@carnold
When people die in prison, it is rarely from humiliation.

@lauriesman
What you want? You suggested several times that using torture and imprisoning people without legal justification is justified. You suggested that hunting for 'tigers' was logical and justified.
This is not about 'the real world'.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/07/2006 03:00 PM     
  @lauriesman @carnold  
 
Judge only your own actions. Leave it to a higher power to judge the actions of others. Your actions are what separate you from the animals, the terrorists. Don’t lower yourself to that level. Maintain your pride, your dignity, your honor, in the face of all adversity. That is what it means to be a decent human being. No one has the “right” to torture another human being EVER. You may save innocent lives but in the process you have given up your soul. I don’t support terrorists, theirs or ours. I support morality. There is no honor in torturing a captured prisoner to death. As for Iraq, we shouldn’t even be there. They had nothing to do with 9/11. I don’t support wars of aggression nor an administration that promotes one. As for spilt milk, I’m not crying over it, I’m trying to set the bottle back upright so no more spills. Many here want to spill the rest of the bottles cause there’s already a mess, why stop now? We are on the wrong track. This one goes straight to hell. I want to change tracks or I want off the train.

@carnold
It’s a slippery slope you tread on, how low shall we go, is there a limit. How much like “them” are we willing to become? When we get to their level will we really be any different than “them”, any better? What will be our justification for our actions, our existence? How many have been tortured to death in Iraqi prisons by US soldiers? Can we actually get any lower than murder by torture? Is there anything more inhumane on our part? Why are these prisons “secret”? Maybe there are far lower things afoot that are just too distasteful for the American public to hear about on the 6pm news. Shame. All it takes is a few plane crashes and an entire country that prides itself on its morals suddenly become a nation of terrorists, without honor, dignity, morals, pride, what is left, hollow, hate filled, animals. Maybe it’s all been an illusion and this is all we have ever been. Sad.
 
  by: Valkyrie123     09/07/2006 04:18 PM     
  @ec  
 
No, I suggested that gathering intelligence by such means was a stark necessity in a world that is far from ideal.

We often have to deal with things we don't particularly like, but which we have to accept given that the alternative is much worse.

If we wanted to talk about what I want:

I want all people to give up money, do away with capitalism and the idea of being able to OWN a concept, thought, abstract, or idea. I want to see a society where people are less concerned about being rewarded for their actions, and more concerned about just helping each other. I want to see a society where we stop worrying incessantly about what we don't have, and start appreciating what we do, and giving thanks that we have it at all.

I want to see an end to hateful divisions that arbitrarily separate brother and sister from brother and sister - including race, religion, and sexuality. Condemn not lest you be condemned.

I want to see a world where everyone works to ensure that everybody has as much as they need, where there are no haves and have nots. A world that is not achievable while our lives are governed by materialism and self-interest.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 04:26 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
Is the alternative much worse? What is your soul worth?

As for your world vision…
Halleluiah the Holy Spirit has returned to Lauriesman. Thank you for the common sense, I would like to join you and help you in creating a new world order. We are desperately in need of one. We have got a lot of work ahead of us.

It takes guts to put forth your ideas. In doing so, you put yourself on the firing line. I don’t see much of that on SN. Any coward can criticize and belittle others idea. Thank you for stepping up to the plate. Kudos to you lauriesman. You’ve got guts partner. Any more real men out there?
 
  by: Valkyrie123     09/07/2006 05:30 PM     
  well well well  
 
i wonder why they are secret! the war on "terror" ain't secret! if they arrest a "terrorist" they must have evidence! show the evidence and everything is OK then! but the fact that the prisons are a secret shows how much US don't care about people!

US didn't want the war to stop in Lebanon even though they knew that Israel is targeting civilians, but they thought that lebanese will get against hezbollah!

Muslims held foriegn prisoners many times, never they were tortured! sometimes they get killed cuz the other side don't care about them!

yes americans...keep supporting bush! keep supporting your president who braught hatred to u! who said the war is against terror but it's a war against muslims and arabs! almost 6 years and "terrorist" attacks are increasing! US soldiers are dying in Iraq because of a war against WMD, guess what? NO WMD were found! keep paying taxes that is spent on war and weapons that is killing children and women! this is making muslims and arabs hate you and want to kill your women and children! hatred does not come from a single accident!

call me terrorists call me extrimist call me whatever u want! I hate US, hate Israel! and even hate their people! US people can change all this! but they don't care about children except theirs! they don;t care about children starving to death in Sudan, they only care about their child to eat from Mc of KFC or whetever!

people here are beginning to care less about other people cuz others don't give a sh*t about them! they are sending their children to kill other children so their parents can feel part of their pain!

I hate it this way! but it was not the lebanese army that invaded US or the Syrian army that invaded Canada! it's US and Israel that keep attacking arabs and muslims for no damn reason! maybe it's the fact that the area where they live is blessed with natural sources!

Secret prisons and other acts make it clear that US don't want peace! if they want peace they would reallky arrest "terrorists" and show proof! to bring peace is not to leave the "terrorist" free and arrest the innocent!

stop f*cking around and see the truth! change your life and others life, and prevent further deaths.
 
  by: King|of|Queens     09/07/2006 05:36 PM     
  King of Q’s  
 
In your last post you told us 6 times who and how much you “hate”. Did you ever stop to think that you might be part of the problem and not part of the solution? Hate ain’t the way.

Slow down and take a deep breath, not every American supports the war, in fact most of us don’t. We don’t support Bush either. I would like to see him on trial for war crimes. We are having an election in 6 weeks and hopefully things will change and the war will end.

I realize English might not be your first language and your Farsi has got to be better than mine but…you sound like a bigger loon than I am and that’s not good. No one will give credence to posts from a psychotic (most people completely ignore mine).

A lot of what you posted has some truth to it. Unfortunately you plowed it under all the hate and it is barely visible. Give me your ideas on how we can change things and make the world a better place. Telling me you hate Israelis and want them all dead is not a productive riposte. Do you have any intelligent, positive ideas? I know very few people from Lebanon and I would truly like to hear your thought on this. I can’t even imagine what you have gone through and I can see your pain. See beyond the pain and help solve the problem, please. Calmly tell us what is happening over there. All we get is the homogenized nightly news version.
 
  by: Valkyrie123     09/07/2006 07:11 PM     
  Ignorance  
 
It's all smoke and mirrors. Why don't you guys go ask Bush who the prisons and camps are for spread around the US? We're gonna bring foreigners here? I doubt that. :)

Have a nice day.
 
  by: prophageus   09/07/2006 07:50 PM     
  Do I agree with torture?  
 
Under certain terms and conditions, yes

Do I agree with secret torture?
No, never.

Although Lauriesman might be happy for the , russians, to kidnap and torture him, then kill him and deny he existed, I'm certainly not.
 
  by: GogeVandire   09/07/2006 08:40 PM     
  @prophageus  
 
If you were referring to those government prison camps located around the US then yeah I know what you mean. Scares the crap outa me knowing that the US has camps ready to be filled with american citizens. Question on my mind is when do they plan on using them?
 
  by: slavefortheman     09/07/2006 09:20 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
" Hmm, but how does a walled fort translate to a country... you can't really prevent the tigers getting in or out - particularly as you have potential tigers living within the walls as well as outside them.

In other words, how do you propose to keep terrorists out of a country when they are both already inside the country, and able to enter (the less work you do to identify the terrorists the easier it is to enter)."

Espionage and infiltration. Apprehension only when caught red-handed.

Our blanket sweeps and willingness to inflict collateral damage to take a target out only breeds more of the type of people we are trying to curtail. For every innocent we kill, for every home we destroy, for every business that goes under because of our actions, we've just created the potential for the creation more "terrorists".

Our current way might stop some current plans, but it doesn't provide for a permanent, peaceful solution. All it does is generate more ire, more hate, upon the innocents affected by our actions against the guilty, turning them into the self-same freedom fighters, terrorists, insurgents, whatever, that we are fighting to contain.
 
  by: Dedolito     09/07/2006 09:59 PM     
  ...  
 
I said it before and say it again now, I HATE USA AND ISRAEL! since 1948, all what Israel caused was death and destruction! since they came to palestine they commited massacres and made 100,000s leave Palestine, and my family was on of them. My family had to leave after the death of more than 3/4 of the people in our village. Back then, none had any weapons! their was no war on terror! Israelis and Jews are cool-blooded! I compare them to vampires! see some histroty about the massacres they commited since 1948! What makes it worse, none really cares! it's like the dead are fish or something worthless! like Arabs and Muslims are a second degree Humans! It's OK for them to die!

Hatred for US and Israel is not just because of past war or even the war before, it's in out blood now! Come here and ask children they will tell you we hate Israel and US! what do you expect of a 12 yo who lost his twin brother? or a boy who lost his deareast friends?....... I wonder if many of you saw the messages wrote by israeli kids on bombs at the beginning of war! they wrote "a gift to Lebanese children!" i swear if i saw that girl i would crush her to death!

Maybe their is still some hope for that hate to go away. And it's the responsibility of US and Israel along side the world make that hate go away!

I will march against Blair next monday when he arrives to Lebanon! UK played a vital role in tranfering weapons to israel from US, which makes UK responsible too!

http://www.soundofegypt.com/...
http://www.theuncampaign.org
 
  by: King|of|Queens     09/07/2006 10:27 PM     
  ...  
 
If you are just going to blindly hate all Americans just because they are Americans then you are a part of the problem, and are just as bad as those people who blindly support Bush and his administration. Not to mention you give Bush and his supporters more ammunition (so to speak) against you.
 
  by: StarShadow     09/07/2006 10:40 PM     
  @Dedolito  
 
Also I would like to add on to your commends about creating more "terrorists". In Viet Nam we were using the same tactics we are using in iraq. Going into a village and taking out several people that were suspected to being linked with the NVA or VC. We would torture/kill a lot of people that had nothing to do with the NVA or VC and their families or they themselves if they survived would join the other side because they had reason to hate us. Same happens in Iraq. So why do people think that we should be torturing people??? If you ask me if you really want to repress people then you are just asking for even more violence against you.
 
  by: slavefortheman     09/07/2006 10:47 PM     
  @StarShadow  
 
with all what happened and still happening, you tell me i hate US blindly?! come on!
 
  by: King|of|Queens     09/07/2006 11:27 PM     
  @KoQ  
 
Hate is borne from ignorance, and there is more than enough hatred in the world already without adding to it.

There is nothing inherently differnet between an American and a Spaniard, or an Australian and a Israelite, or any nation from any other nation. We are all human beings, with the same set of possible motivators, desires, needs etc .

What distinguishes any one person from any other person is their knowledge and experiences and how that has translated to wisdom.

Hating someone, no matter what they have done, merely shows the old saying "there but for the grace of God, go I". You might say "I would never do that", but the truth is, unless that person is suffering from a genetic abnormality, then given the same circumstances, experience and background, you would.

Ignorance breeds hate, because it is the enemy of understanding. Humans are fundementally flawed, we make mistakes, we are selfish and self interested, we cause suffering in pursuit of our own goals. Bush is no different than the rest of us. He should be removed because he is causing damage, but he shouldn't be reviled or hated - that just contributes to the problem.

To put it another way, KoQ, your hatred is the reason secret prisons and torture exist in the first place.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/07/2006 11:56 PM     
  @lauriesman  
 
Hate can also be based on murder and rape. Please don't suggest that rape victims are ignorant.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/08/2006 12:00 AM     
  @ king and lauries  
 
Lauries: Hate is not only out of ignorance. I hope you have a trouble free life but just imagine everyone you know dying infront of you and your own house being torn down. You didn't do anything wrong nor did your family and friends.I know the world is not fair, but humans feel and have sympathy.
i haven't been somewhere like lebanon or palestine but i did grow up in a war torn country where i could see people starving. Believe me it is really ugly and you can't understand it unless you live with those suffering or feel fear for yourself and loved ones. Not fear from terrorists, but fear a bullet might hit you, fear if your dad who was politically arrested will ever come home or a letter will come saying he didn't survive prison. Immediate fear, not "future", "maybe", "possibly" kind of fear.

King: hating won't get you anywhere, you can hate as much as you want or even go as far as smashing the young girl's head. this will put YOU through pain, not those you hate/ hurt. maybe it is not obvious now, butguilt can kill and many have already died. Life is not fair, but if you believe in a second life, whether you are muslim, christian, buddhst or believe in mythology or egyptian gods, things will be better then. If you don't believe in anything, it is better to die with a clear conscience and no guilt than to see how worthless and short life is yet you spent all of it hating rather than giving the one you love flowers or taking those who suffered with you somewhere nice or merely helping with Aid and supporting those in need.
 
  by: DarkAngelJG     09/08/2006 12:12 AM     
  @ec,darkangel  
 
EC:
Yes, rape victims and murder victims are ignorant. They are ignorant about the motivation, the reasons that lead a person to rape or murder them or ones they love. Ignorance is inevitable.

DARKANGEL:
And from ignorance comes fear. Fear and terror are the outward manifestations of facing something unknown. Not knowing the day you will die, or the reasons why. Not knowing how to protect yourself or the ones you love. It's fear and helplessness that lead Iraqi civilians to take up as suicide bombers. Not because they believe they are making a difference, because in their heart, they know they aren't. They do it because what else can they do? They have to do something or the fear and hopelessness will destroy their sanity, push them beyond breaking point.

Hate and understanding are mutually exclusive.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/08/2006 12:23 AM     
  @KoQ  
 
This is why Jesus said "Love your enemy".
 
  by: lauriesman     09/08/2006 12:25 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
You are actually suggesting that rape victims should make an effort to understand WHY they were raped. You are a bad person.

No matter how much you proclaim to have morals, I find you spend most of your time playing "devil's advocate". If only rape victims were more understanding, perhaps we could all live happily. But alas, this is the real world.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/08/2006 12:31 AM     
  @KingofQueens  
 
".. with all what happened and still happening, you tell me i hate US blindly?! come on!"

Well, to be fair I would like you to clarify something for me.

Do you hate the US, including all of the people who live there? Even though you have never met these people, and the majority of them are (and have been) manipulated by the people in power.

Or. Is it just the US Gov't and it's misguided policies that you hate?
 
  by: StarShadow     09/08/2006 12:32 AM     
  @ lauriesman  
 
we seem to have very different opinion. I read this "And from ignorance comes fear. Fear and terror are the outward manifestations of facing something unknown. Not knowing the day you will die, or the reasons why. Not knowing how to protect yourself or the ones you love. It's fear and helplessness that lead Iraqi civilians to take up as suicide bombers. Not because they believe they are making a difference, because in their heart, they know they aren't. They do it because what else can they do? They have to do something or the fear and hopelessness will destroy their sanity, push them beyond breaking point. " and i was agreeing with you until you put it on iraqis (i was thinking about the US and how terrified they are about terrorists and arbic shirts!)!
anyway, i don't thin i will contribute to this thread as we both strongly believe in opposite things.
Jesus said that indeed and it is one of my best bibleversus. Islam promotes peae too (haven't read it for a whil and can't remember from the top of my head) but some people interpret it the way they want, same way christians went through all the crusades. I am christian but i understand that we weren't the most peacefull religion either.

i am guessing King is muslim, so, before this turns into a religion fight PLEASE remember no one knows for sure who is right or wrong so just learn to get along, accept and admire the diversity!
 
  by: DarkAngelJG     09/08/2006 12:32 AM     
  @darkangel  
 
You misunderstand, I am not criticizing the Iraqi civilians, I sympathise with them greatly. The kind of stress that can drive a good person to knowingly murder scores of people is tragic. These people are reacting along the only routes offered to them - recruitment by insurgents, the police force, or a militia. This situation has made them very easy pickings for Al Queda, through no fault of their own.

And yes, you are right, it is ignorance and fear of the unknown that drove the passengers to complain about the shirt.

Iraqis at heart are just like Americans at heart. Look at American ghettos, where gang culture predominates and you will see instances of that same desperation and hopelessness driving otherwise good people onto a path of death and destruction.

This is nothing to do with religion, AT ALL - it is about being human!
 
  by: lauriesman     09/08/2006 12:45 AM     
  @ec  
 
No, I'm not suggesting they should - although I think it would be very therapeutic. I'm simply saying that the hate they may feel stems from an ignorance of why they were subjected to what they endured.

It is purely ignorant to say "he raped the girl because he is evil and inhuman".

I'm not talking about justifying anything, I'm talking about increasing understanding, even of the things we don't like. We are all flawed. I'm sure every one of us has done thing we are not proud of.

A friend from highschool, Greg, beat a man to death and is prison for murder. He did it to impress his friends, because he suffered from insecurity to the point of dysfunction. His friends started harrassing and insulting the guy, so greg beat him up to impress them. That's tragic, because Greg was actually a good guy, he just didn't have the self-esteem to do what he wanted to do, and instead submitted to peer pressure from the worst. Greg wasn't entirely smart, in fact, the only thing that got him through school was his physical stature. Noone liked him for who he was, but for what he could do. He learned that doing things made you popular if you impressed the people you did them for. I knew Greg because he used to bully me terribly, but only when other people were around. Ironically, I was the only one that got to see his good side. Greg got no love from his folks at home, he lived with an older brother who was busy with his own life. Parents had stopped being on the scene when he was 6.

What he did was wrong, and inexcusable, but should we hate him for it? No. Pity is a much better emotion. Compassion too. It's a tragedy from both sides of the act.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/08/2006 12:56 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
You condemn a man for displaying Arabic text, and you said nothing about compassion and understanding then. Only after someone else said it did you acknowledge that the real issue in that case were the people who complained.

And now, in this case, the ends justify the means, even if that means imprisoning and torturing people without legal cause. According to you, "gathering intelligence by such means was a stark necessity in a world that is far from ideal". Again, I would say that the real issue lies with the people who feel they need to resort to barbarism to feel safe or comfortable.

Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to take away the fear these people feel, instead of justifying their actions? Surely, if certain people were made to be less ignorant, this world could more closely match your fantasy world.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/08/2006 01:17 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
hahahaha... I had a suspicion that you were playing devil's advocate. (Funny that you got some supporters praising you!)

Anyway, just a few things. When I gave the chinese proverb, you extrapolated the metaphor. I think it has been taken too far. Remaining vigilant is required, but as I stated earlier, I think the recent excesses of the US government ave been due to failings of the past and fear of the future. They have over-compensated.

The US has definately been up in the mountains. They are not completely to blame for the current situation, but as I stated earlier, there can be no room for pragmatism wrt human rights.
 
  by: jendres     09/08/2006 01:18 AM     
  @ec, jendres  
 
EC:
Sometimes people don't get what you are saying from your first post so you have to post again and break it down further, or add additional detail until they do understand.

That's called communication.

JENDRES:
That's the most intelligent thing anyone has ever said on SN.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/08/2006 02:48 AM     
  lauriesman  
 
I may be wrong, but I believe that most everyone on earth in some way wishes for some type of peace whether it be in the mind, home, community, or world. From what I can observe, many people don't have peace in any one of those areas.

I'm sure you recognize that most terrorists probably don't consider themselves to be bad people, just as many of us don't consider ourselves to bad people (even if others might think otherwise). Maybe allying with that part in the terrorists which they consider noble of themselves could ease their fears of us, promoting a less fearful atmosphere. I'm almost certain they are not allying with our noble sides by attacking us (and vise versa).

In my estimation peace will have to prevail sometime whether it be by the complete self-destruction of the human species or by mutual understanding and agreement. I hope that we can all find a way to make it the latter.
 
  by: banshee9898     09/08/2006 04:45 AM     
  @banshee  
 
The problem there is that there is another faction with just as powerful a desire NOT to establish peace, the same people who fill the heads of these men lies and hateful propoganda.

 
  by: lauriesman     09/08/2006 05:16 AM     
  hellblazer  
 
Assuming it's your job, how did you get your position of traveling up and down the East coast? Was it that you fought with the interviewer and forced them to comply with what you wanted or was it that you negotiated with them a beneficial outcome for both parties?
 
  by: banshee9898     09/08/2006 05:24 AM     
  lauriesman  
 
Yeah, that's why leaders need to practice these principals to other leaders the most.
 
  by: banshee9898     09/08/2006 05:46 AM     
  @hellblazer  
 
Ho hum, more labelling and dismissing views you neither like nor grasp? More chest thumping? You may not be able to read your behavior for what it is, but it's clear for the rest of us. Just keep telling yourself that you're not afraid...sure, everyone lashes out at random people (and nations) when they are coolly analyzing a situation. The truth of the matter is simple - the bullying of your nation makes you feel better and more secure, whether or not they are targetting the right people OR making you safer. You haven't an intelligent rebuttal, so it's just more of the same flexing and posturing when someone calls you on it.

"Oh do tell, what's the plan? You don't want to offer them the hamburger do you?"

How about being in the right country attacking the right people? Tell me, if you could fire a bomb tomorrow, where would you fire it? Who is the enemy? The truth is, you don't know the enemy or understand the situation, and it scares you silly.

"'While you prepare to deflect bullets, they poison your food.'

The way you think, that is a probability. If it was my choice they would have about two minutes to execute their plan."

Wow, the metaphor sailed completely over your head. Not only that, your rebuttal just illustrated my point. You haven't the foggiest idea how this war should be fought, so it's just more of the same - and the real enemy knows it. They can count on people like you to endorse the same ineffective tactics for...how long has it been in Iraq now? How long since "Mission Accomplished?" Just keep the faith...

"Word it however and whatever makes you feel better."

Hey, if the founding fathers had the balls to try to maintain a dictatorship, you wouldn't have to worry your little head about the checks and balances those wusses put into place. It doesn't really make me feel better that you are unable to see the conclusions your foolish statements reach, just sad. You haven't a clue what this country is about, merely that it's got the bombs and might makes right.

"But Our founding fathers were the first to fight using guerrilla type warfare. No rules of engagement. That is why we won! Just played to win. But of course we didn't have goodie two shoes running around worring about the rights of the enemy and what other countries may have thought of us."

You mean, when they fought an army of identifiable enemies in red coats? Let's first establish that this situation is exactly what the Iraqi insurgents are doing right now, which I'm sure you certainly must approve of given your praise of the tactics. Right, now who is the enemy today, again? Try to avoid the simplistic answer of "terrorists," because that's nothing but a buzzword. Iraq is loaded with Iraqis fighting each other, and since 90% of Iraqis do not want us there, they also shoot at us. Where is Al-Queda, those folks who attacked us, again? Oh right, we took our eye off the ball and will not look back, lest we look weak. Swing away...!

"I wonder if any of these terriost groups give our rights a thought? Do you think they loose any sleep over it? Could you imagine how they would appear if they did? Do you think they care what the rest of the world thinks."

Taking on our approach, they would appear to be the good guys. Guess what that makes us in taking on theirs, as you suggest?

"What is your plan to stop this. Invite them over for tea and a chat? Or shall we stand there like idiots and allow them to blow up our people with their little toy bombs and trucks while we stand helpless bound by the rules of engagment."

How about getting our people out of the needless harm they are currently in and get them back to finding the people who attacked us on 9/11? Gee, they wouldn't have to sit around then, and if they must die it WOULD be for a good reason...funny how that works...

"When we have enough power to put an end to this in hours. Don't you think we should unleash at least some of our power and show them this will not happen again. Maybe if we did we wouldn't need these secret prisons in the first place."

Oh yeah, let's nuke Iraq, right? Sure, that'll fix 'em! No? Well, again I ask, where would you send that bomb? It's so cute how you've got that great big stick and no one to strike with it. What's victory in Iraq, big man? What end are we trying to reach? Have you even thought about it, or are you still expecting unconditional surrender from a decentralized group of guerilla fighters?

When we have an enemy to target, then yes, by all means fire away. But guess what? We don't, so that power is useless.
 
  by: momentofclarity     09/08/2006 06:12 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
Cheers mate. If there was a signature function, I might even put that quote there for a couple of days to give my ego a boost. :P
 
  by: jendres     09/08/2006 06:22 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
In your next attempt at communication, you may want to start by talking about the most important thing. That way, it doesn't seem as though you really never thought of the most important thing.
And, I said more than what you replied to. Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to take away the fear these people feel, instead of justifying their actions? Surely, if certain people were made to be less ignorant, this world could more closely match your fantasy world.
 
  by: Ec5618   09/08/2006 11:18 AM     
  @ec  
 
And I ignored that part because it is not technically possible.

THAT is the responsibility of the communities from which the terrorists are being drawn in bulk - and not just their responsibility, but they are the only ones that can effectively do it.

In other words, the muslim in particular world globally, in every country, needs to condemn in the strongest language what the terrorists are doing. Until that happens, and continues to happen, attempting to address peoples fear - on both sides of the fence, is a non-event.
 
  by: lauriesman     09/09/2006 01:10 AM     
  @lauriesman  
 
Obviously, 'the fear' has taken root in 'terrorist' neighbourhoods, and in your own. While it may not be technically impossible for you to influence 'the terrorists', you can address fear in your own neighbourhood. You can address anyone who might be reading this.

Do you really think the best thing to do is to critise a man for wearing Arabic text?
 
  by: Ec5618   09/09/2006 01:30 AM     
  US aggression; own up to it or condemn it  
 
Lauriesman; haven't heard from you for some time :) (I've been busy too).

This email refers to:
-carpet bombing reference request
-torture and culpability
-secret prisons and due process
-US indiscriminate killing of civilians

Carpet bombing is something certain first world countries like to do. So many weapons, so few victims (I'm sure there's plenty more goodies in their golf bag we haven't seen yet).
http://www.cnn.com/...
http://www.commondreams.org/...
http://en.wikipedia.org/...
I tried to keep 'liberal' sources out of it, I didn't want to you to get 'link-dizzy'.
Nothing wrong about carpet-bombing, except it's indiscriminate, that's why israeli 'cluster bombs' had so much criticism.

Torture requires responsible usage.
"The US got caught, because right now the spotlight"
"Torture goes on in every country"
"Less than 5 deaths have occured at Abu Grahib"
It's a little confusing if on one hand, you justify torture as common place and a harsh reality of life. It sounds like you have given up trying to condemn it. And on the other hand, defend the US' honour when accused about Abu Ghraib - like it was almost a shameful thing.
Indeed the Führer seems to be doing a little flip-flopping himself.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/...

The problem about Secret Prisons, is that there is no 'due process'. I know people hide behind 'they deserve no rights'. But suppose it was you; you have no jury (fair enough you say; it's happened before), but because it's a secret prison, no one knew it happened.
People are unfair at times. During the Nazi Halocaust, it was the records that played a role in them getting an acknowledgement (even if it were only a mention in history). Guantanamo, GTMO, gitmo - whatever the media wants to label it to confuse the public with - will never have that.

Indiscriminate killings of civilians, the only piece of non-discrimination I've seen about the US in the news, of late. This article almost could be joined up with the 'carpet bombing' issue if it wasn't for this quote:
"The US does not indescriminately target civilians"
-Cluster Bombs
-DU
-Phospor shells
-thermobarics
-ucav launched weapons
-carpet bombings
And who could forget this little beauty
http://www.dumpalink.com/...

I can post more links and references on request.
 
  by: redstain   09/09/2006 02:21 AM     
 
 
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