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10/10/2006 05:47 AM ID: 57524 Permalink   

Alaskan Villages Reject Venezuela Oil on Patriotic Grounds

 

Despite paying as much as $7.25/gallon a number of indigenous villages in Alaska have rejected donations from Venezuela to buy heating oil on the grounds that "no foreigner has the right to call their president 'the devil.'"

150 other villages have accepted the oil. Venezuela normally provides oil to those in poverty through Citgo. Citgo does not operate in Alaska so over $5 million was sent to local charities to pay for 100 gallons of heating oil for about 12,000 homes.

Many of the villages say they have no choice with temperatures of -15 and high levels of poverty and unemployment. Local media has been expressing embarrassment that citizens of the oil producing state must look to foreign help to survive.

 
  Source: news.yahoo.com  
    WebReporter: ixuzus Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  56 Comments
  
  people who can afford to be patriotic should be  
 
Unfortunately some people can't afford to be patriotic.

Why don't we help aslaskan villages?
 
  by: redstain   10/10/2006 01:37 PM     
  Fools  
 
Take the oil, Dubya doesn’t care about you, your poverty, your freezing to death, your existence. Don’t be proud of a scum bag like Dubya. All he cares about is raping your state of its oil so his cronies can make a quick buck. How can the people of such an oil rich state be freezing? I call shenanigans. I guess the only news that made it that far was that Hugo called Dubya the Devil. They must not worry too much about wiretapping, domestic spying, the Mexican infiltration, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the assault on the middle class….this could go on forever. I think I’ll move to Alaska, I’m already freezing in northern Minnesota, I might as well be blissfully ignorant in the frozen tundra above the circle.

“in what is widely seen as an effort by Chavez to embarrass and irritate the U.S. government”.
Well in that respect this donation is overkill. All you have to do is watch and the government will embarrass itself with impunity.

George Bush the Devil? Well if it walks like the Devil and howls like the Devil…
 
  by: Valkyrie123     10/10/2006 01:47 PM     
  So I gues they think they devil will rescue them?  
 
Do they expect the "dear leader" er I mean W to come to their aid? Unless they happened to donate several million dollars to the GOP I doubt they will get any sort of help from anyone.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 02:56 PM     
  Previous 3 posts: Proove a point.  
 
The left has absolutly NO concept of americanism anymore. Heaven for bid Americans stand up for thier president, even if they dont agree with everything he has done.

They need help, but wont take it from a @$$hat like Chavez.

I applaud Alaska. As a matter of fact, I am going to look up why they are paying so much and see if there is any way I can donate money.
 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 03:39 PM     
  Valk -  
 
"They must not worry too much about wiretapping, domestic spying, the Mexican infiltration, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the assault on the middle class….this could go on forever"

They disagree with your views, so obviously they are ignorant, is this the way it goes?

You eliteist type need to check yourselves. Its pathetic.
 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 03:41 PM     
  @classy  
 
Actually they probably are ignorant. I am not saying that these people are stupid. Note: There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Stupid means that they are incapable of learning where as ignorance means they simply have not learned.

They have no clue that the CIA tried to overthrow the Chavez government in 02'. Chavez has a very good excuse to call W the Devil. After all it was W's administration that tried to overthrow his democratically elected government.

Plus the US government isnt too well liked in latin america for the sheer fact of all the rape, murder and torture we have comitted in that area of the world. If you dont believe me just check out some human rights reports or check out the decision the world court placed on the US. The US has yet to pay repirations to Nicarauga for the masacre of its people. I know people personally effected by the bloodshed we inflicted. These terrorists that we nicly dubbed "contras" were trained at Ft Benning's school for the americas in Georgia.

Sorry to get off the main topic but these are the reasons the US government is so disliked in latin america. Chavez himself said he is not an enemy of the US people but he is at odds with the current administration.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 04:15 PM     
  @classless  
 
Are you aware that the US is the only country to ever have been condemned for international Terrorism by the World Court? I’m sure someone as informed as yourself already knew that like most Americans and those living in Alaska. If you don't believe it then you should perhaps save your money and like Chavez says read some Chomsky or Zinn or Parenti ..Whichever you prefer.
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 04:25 PM     
  Patriotic Grounds lol  
 
So if Chavez doesn’t like the US Administration (BUSH et Al.) He’s anti-American

Take it away Noam

CHOMSKY: The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships, something I wrote about many years ago (see my book Letters from Lexington). Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet." That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture. In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt. Suppose someone in Italy who criticizes Italian state policy were condemned as "anti-Italian." It would be regarded as too ridiculous even to merit laughter. Maybe under Mussolini, but surely not otherwise.
Actually the concept has earlier origins. It was used in the Bible by King Ahab, the epitome of evil, to condemn those who sought justice as "anti-Israel" ("ocher Yisrael," in the original Hebrew, roughly "hater of Israel," or "disturber of Israel"). His specific target was Elijah.
It's interesting to see the tradition in which the people you refer to choose to place themselves. The idea of leaving America because one opposes state policy is another reflection of deep totalitarian commitments. Solzhenitsyn, for example, was forced to leave Russia, against his will, by people with beliefs very much like those you are quoting.
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 04:28 PM     
  @cheesy  
 
"Local media has been expressing embarrassment that citizens of the oil producing state must look to foreign help to survive"

how proud that must make you feel ... lol
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 04:35 PM     
  @slave  
 
"Actually they probably are ignorant."

You got anything backing that claim up?
 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 05:11 PM     
  @classy  
 
do you know what "probably" means ... It means he doesn't have to back up anything it's an opinion
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 05:24 PM     
  @classy  
 
Yes I do have some evidence.

8% of the US adult population never reads another book after high school.

42% of college graduates never read another book.

80% of US families did not buy or read a book last year.

70% of US adults have not been in a bookstore in the last five years.

57% of new books are not read to completion.

http://www.JenkinsGroup.com

Now I am just pointing to the fact that most Americans don’t get any information from books. There are other sources that point to average Americans being ignorant in these things. Other sources show that most Americans can’t even point out Iraq on a globe.

Only about 1 in 7 can locate Iraq or Iran on a map. These are basic things that everyone should know.

http://www.cbsnews.com/...

The list goes on and on.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 05:34 PM     
  let's be fair  
 
In all fairness, Chavez's 'devil' comment was pretty silly. I did find it amusing but I also cringed a bit when I heard about it because Chavez doesn't need to resort to name calling to make his point. I mean it wasn't really all that different from the US admin's 'axis of evil' bit.

Anyways back to this story, there's really nothing wrong with these villages rejecting foreign aid on patriotic grounds. I also don't think it's fair to assume they are ignorant based solely on this. I mean you can be patriotic even while acknowledging that the US has and will commit evil. In fact, I would say that you can only be a true patriot if you do acknowledge the nation for all its flaws.
 
  by: bane39   10/10/2006 05:39 PM     
  @bane39  
 
I do agree with you there. He shouldn’t have said that in his speech. There are more polite ways to make snide remarks toward someone. Especially when doing so in front of the UN general assembly!

I agree with you in part that you should acknowledge that ones government is not perfect. Except for the fact that in this case the mainstream press and the current administration has set out to demonize Chavez and his supporters. Just hypothetically if these people were exposed to say the BBC as their main source of news rather than CNN or Fox, they probably would have totally different opinions on receiving oil from Venezuela.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 05:45 PM     
  @Slave, Hugo  
 
Again, do you have ANYTHING backing up your statement that Alaskans are ignorant about whats going on in the world?

You gave me statistics about things that had NOTHING to do with the question.


"do you know what "probably" means ... It means he doesn't have to back up anything it's an opinion"

Are you serious? Thats all you can come up with?

"Are you aware that the US is the only country to ever have been condemned for international Terrorism by the World Court? I’m sure someone as informed as yourself already knew that like most Americans and those living in Alaska. If you don't believe it then you should perhaps save your money and like Chavez says read some Chomsky or Zinn or Parenti ..Whichever you prefer."

What the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING in this post? Your a border-line extremeist that likes to spew your narrow minded comments wherever you can, it doesnt matter if it has anything to do with the subject matter or not.

 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 05:47 PM     
  As a patriotic American  
 
I support the right of anyone to call Bush the devil. Here's why:

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Funny how the U.S., while so hung up on exporting its "democracy" all over the world, gets so upset when a non-American dare assume he has the same right to freedom of speech.
 
  by: l´anglais     10/10/2006 05:58 PM     
  @classy  
 
My point is that most Americans are not capable of making a poignant assessment of something especially when they have no knowledge of it. As per my example that is pointed out above, by how many people within the US actually read books. Television is not the end all answer and will not give you a 100% return on information. The mainstream press will omit certain details or even entire stories simply because it does not suit their interests.

Here is a book I recommend reading: A Peoples History of the United States.

It will give you a different view of the past 500 years.

Also, Hegemony or Survival is another book to read. Chavez even said in his address at the UN for people of the US to read it. You don’t have to agree with what I am saying. I’m am merely pointing out a simple fact that in general, Americans are not capable of giving very good opinions on matters pertaining to politics simply for the fact that they have no independent knowledge about the topic of conversation except for what they are spoon fed via the mainstream press.

Here is a test: Go out and ask 10 people you meet randomly. Ask them who Hugo Chavez is. I guarantee most will be unable to answer you or will give you incorrect answers. Those who do answer correctly, ask them if they know what happened to Chavez in 2002? Ask them again why Chavez is so popular. More than likely they will be unable to answer your questions just because they are uneducated on that topic. This is my point.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 06:09 PM     
  @ all  
 
Does everyone know that 78.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

I think more than 70% of americans have been in a book store in the last year.....who are they polling? First grade children?
 
  by: nesta   10/10/2006 06:14 PM     
  @Slave  
 
Then that is what you should of said; instead of bashing Alaskans because they dont see things like you do.

Still goes back to my point though, someone disagrees with your views so they must be stupid or ignorant.

It couldnt be that these people actually belive that the U.S., as a whole, is a good place. Yea, the bush administration has made a lot of mistakes, and I personally think that these past few years have been a complete fubar.

But I will not tolerate some wannabe world leader from Ven. talking mess about anything in the States.

If you guys think Chavez is so great, then move down to Venezuela, im sure your eliteist attitudes will work well down there.

 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 06:27 PM     
  Bad summary  
 
Sorry, but from reading the summary I have no clue what this story is about. What does Venezuela and Alaska have to do with eachother? And who called who a Devil? It's just not very well summarized. IMO.
 
  by: mberg     10/10/2006 06:39 PM     
  @classy  
 
I never once said they were stupid. If you read what I typed, I said they were ignorant. Ignorance and stupidity are two different balls of wax. Saying someone is ignorant is not an insult as you think. I myself am ignorant on many topics.

Being “stupid” however is an insult. I did not once say they were stupid. Generally people infer that this means they are incapable of learning where as being “ignorant” means that you have not acquired the knowledge but have the means by which to obtain it.

I’m not trying to say Chavez is perfect. Far from it. I would say that the people of Venezuela are better off as a result of his decisions to redistribute the oil wealth of the country though. Also Chavez has made it clear that his intentions are to only throw off the yoke of neo-colonialism. He has even stated this in many of his speeches.

Watch the documentary “The 4th World War” or the documentary “The Corporation”. These show the conditions that people of the 3rd world are presented with on a daily basis. I myself would never want to live in such impoverished conditions nor would I wish it for anyone else. But the fact of the matter is, the US has held back a lot of the 3rd world simply to suit its own interests. Take a look at your jeans you wear. They were probably manufactured in Mexico. Fruit of the Loom underwear generally are made in I believe Guatemala. They are manufactured under terrible conditions for nearly slave wages. If you think that the US is right in its actions then I supposed you would have no problem living off $0.15 a day. Leaders like Chavez see what has happened to the exploitation by US and International corporations and governments and have said “NO MORE”.

Unlike leaders in the past, Chavez is not calling for Violent Revolution. No he says that change can be accomplished via democratic means. I agree whole heartedly that change should be sought through democracy. People that are unaware of the things that go on in the world are ignorant. Dictionary.com is free to use and you can look up its definition. There is no reason for anyone in a society like ours to be ignorant unless they choose so themselves. I’m sorry I got way off topic here but I had to point these things out.

Check out chomskytorrents.org if you want to check out some documentaries for free. I usually just burn them to DVD and watch them on my DVD player rather than sitting in front of the PC.

PS: Don’t know about you but I actually find this debate kind of fun.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 06:54 PM     
  @mberg  
   
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 06:56 PM     
  @classy  
 
I'll take it from your reaction that you didn't know any of those little facts then .

My point is this if you want to debate Venezuela Chavez or whatever.. no problem .

I'm not going to debate you're side issue of people in a certain area being "ignorant" although it's a nice try to muddy the argument

I've been around here too long mate I’m not falling for the oldest one in the book although I would bet most people are ignorant about Chavez in Alaska and what he's doing in Venezuela as you are and indeed as most Americans are because of the way he is portrayed in the US media .


 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 07:27 PM     
  very serious :-)  
 
"probably" in journalistic terms has been coined by you’re best friends Fox News . It means that what follows is an opinion an therefore can not be proven wrong . It’s along the same lines as “many say” or “some might say” .....
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 07:31 PM     
  @classy  
 
"What the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING in this post?"

Well it shows

A you haven’t read anything written by any of them
B you “probably” never heard of any of them

And therefore

C you have very little information about US foreign policy apart from what you’ve been told by your television

D you have fallen into Parenti’s trap.**


** "The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments of the dominant political mythology.


 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 07:38 PM     
  @classy  
 
“Everything he’s done”
I think the operative should have been “Anything”.

Ignorance is forgivable; it only means they haven’t had the opportunity to learn, stupidity means you don’t have the capacity or inclination to learn. The Eskimos are “probably” ignorant of what is transpiring this far away from their homes. It’s a long way from the Bearing Straight to Washington DC and phone service and internet connections are dubious and expensive at the very least. You on the other hand, being an elitist, unpatriotic, extremist, neo-con, Bush lover with your narrow minded comments, spewing the same old rhetoric over and over, have proven which camp you belong to. See I can copy your words and call you names too. :P What a loser. Keep sucking up to Bush and maybe he will put you in charge of FEMA.

@Hugo
Nice quote from Chomsky. Really puts idiot comments and unpatriotic accusations in perspective. I’m so tired of the neo-con’s using the patriot card when they wouldn’t know a patriot unless one shot them between the eyes. We need to take back America
 
  by: Valkyrie123     10/10/2006 07:39 PM     
  the "devil" comments  
 
The “devil” comments were imho fair, Bush has a lot of blood on his hands , they were however not aimed at American audiences they were aimed at the fact that Chavez faces re-election in hios own country soon and the US is pouring money into his opposition . Plus he wants to chair OPEC and has been making considerable moves to woo the arab countries vote in this respect . Therefore that’s who they were there to please . Not because he’s some nut job shooting his gob off at the UN (even though that’s what corporate media would like you to think) .
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 07:44 PM     
  @hugo chavez  
 
"@classless
Are you aware that the US is the only country to ever have been condemned for international Terrorism by the World Court? I’m sure someone as informed as yourself already knew that like most Americans and those living in Alaska. If you don't believe it then you should perhaps save your money and like Chavez says read some Chomsky or Zinn or Parenti ..Whichever you prefer."

actually most americans don't know this, nor do most canadians... these are the things everyone even if they knew would tend to refuse to acknowledge as it would make them look far worse than that of their enemies..

btw didn't they gets two accounts of international terrorism, not just one?
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/10/2006 07:46 PM     
  the "devil" comments  
 
The “devil” comments were imho fair, Bush has a lot of blood on his hands , they were however not aimed at American audiences they were aimed at the fact that Chavez faces re-election in hios own country soon and the US is pouring money into his opposition . Plus he wants to chair OPEC and has been making considerable moves to woo the arab countries vote in this respect . Therefore that’s who they were there to please . Not because he’s some nut job shooting his gob off at the UN (even though that’s what corporate media would like you to think) .
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 07:50 PM     
  the "devil" comments  
 
The “devil” comments were imho fair, Bush has a lot of blood on his hands , they were however not aimed at American audiences they were aimed at the fact that Chavez faces re-election in hios own country soon and the US is pouring money into his opposition . Plus he wants to chair OPEC and has been making considerable moves to woo the arab countries vote in this respect . Therefore that’s who they were there to please . Not because he’s some nut job shooting his gob off at the UN (even though that’s what corporate media would like you to think) .
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 08:02 PM     
  @All  
 
In order to think differently you need to have a brain.

In order to act differently, you have to have a body.

In order to be different, difference has to exist.

* flies off with the fairies *
 
  by: Hollywood   10/10/2006 08:04 PM     
  @classy  
 
"@Slave
Then that is what you should of said; instead of bashing Alaskans because they dont see things like you do.

Still goes back to my point though, someone disagrees with your views so they must be stupid or ignorant.

It couldnt be that these people actually belive that the U.S., as a whole, is a good place. Yea, the bush administration has made a lot of mistakes, and I personally think that these past few years have been a complete fubar."

just compare american media to the rest of the world... even compared to canada's its quite different... its blindly patriotic for the most part. just look at how much america has been lied to just in the few years bush has been in office and the damage he's done, namely because of american ignorance and secondly from american inaction against injustice. is every american aware of the rights they've lost just in the last 2 weeks alone? or are you going to go to bat for their ignorance too as i sincerely doubt they are all aware of it, despite the fact that as america its their duty to be.

"But I will not tolerate some wannabe world leader from Ven. talking mess about anything in the States."

and yet i'll bet you, you think you support free speech, despite your comment explicity implies that you don't.

"If you guys think Chavez is so great, then move down to Venezuela, im sure your eliteist attitudes will work well down there."

elitist attitudes working in a place thats gear to the average person (a communism, albeit a democratic-communism)... i think not.
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/10/2006 08:04 PM     
  wow tripple post ... a new record  
 
@HAVOC666 Not sure I was referring to the one dished out over what Reagan (that insane well trained actor just like Bush ) was doing in Nicaragua. It really was an example of what a country should do when a despicable act of terrorism is committed against them . Nicaragua took the case to the world court explained how the USA was sending information to the contras telling them where the Sandinistas were not so they could engage them but avoid them and attack “soft targets” like undefended villages , food supplies, churches , farming communities etc so the contras (“the moral equivalent of our founding fathers” according to Reagan) could go in rape 8 year old girls cut them up, skin them , with their bayonets and stuff their bodies with soap or coffee (it’s all pretty well spelled out in the case I don’t need to go on you get the picture I’m sure) . All of this was funded, trained and executed with the help of the US.

The Court ruled in favor of Nicaragua calling the act “the illegal use of force” (international terrorism in plain English) . It ordered the US to pay massive reparations to Nicaragua for the damage bestowed on the country.

The US then dismissed the courts authority and escalated the violence and bombing the week following the ruling. Nicaragua hasn’t received a penny in reparations.

Hey Classy you getting this, I bet you didn’t know any of it , does it sound like the ranting of as you put it “a border-line extremeist (sic) that likes to spew your narrow minded comments wherever you can” because I’d call it FACTS : Facts every American should be taught in school before they feel prepared to step into an international debate and not come out a total idiot for lack of factual information concerning their own country which proclaims itself to be " a beacon of democracy and decency" on the world stage.
 
  by: Hugo Chavez     10/10/2006 08:04 PM     
  @Mr.Chavez  
 
Given the intervention of my post indicating that I had flown with the fairies, that makes for exactly two posts together, not three.

And Bush is such an a$$hole.

Just to clarify where I stand -- and where the fairies fly on this very important issue. And take the oil you fools. Whatshisname down in that place south of us, he's an okay guy, you know?

What has Bush done for you lately, other than cause Arab Muslims to hate you?

Hmpf. As though they had something against native Alaskans.

I'll drink to that ridiculous concept, and take another shot for... The Empire, may it rest in peace.
 
  by: Hollywood   10/10/2006 08:14 PM     
  @Havoc  
 
"just compare american media to the rest of the world... even compared to canada's its quite different... its blindly patriotic for the most part. just look at how much america has been lied to just in the few years bush has been in office and the damage he's done, namely because of american ignorance and secondly from american inaction against injustice. is every american aware of the rights they've lost just in the last 2 weeks alone? or are you going to go to bat for their ignorance too as i sincerely doubt they are all aware of it, despite the fact that as america its their duty to be.

"But I will not tolerate some wannabe world leader from Ven. talking mess about anything in the States."

and yet i'll bet you, you think you support free speech, despite your comment explicity implies that you don't."

I believe in free speech. To a certain extent. When you get into the ring with me, you better come with facts, if you spew that far left crap we will go to blows. I will have a civilized debate - but calling people names? After that, you dont have a political leg to stand on. Grow up.

So I guess your right in a way - Im all for free speech as long as your civilized about it. Alaska stood up to Chavez, I applaud them for that. However, most of the left (at SN anyway) would like to think that the Alaskan people are ignorant, and cannot make an informed decision just because they didnt take freebies from Chavez.

I would think quite the contrary, if the Alaskan people didnt know what was going on in the world, and someone came and tried to offer them help, why wouldnt they take it? According to you guys, they dont "Know any better".

The left is getting vicious, your with us 100% or your against us, no in between.
 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 08:54 PM     
  @hugo chavez  
 
"wow tripple post ... a new record
"@HAVOC666 Not sure I was referring to the one dished out over what Reagan (that insane well trained actor just like Bush ) was doing in Nicaragua. It really was an example of what a country should do when a despicable act of terrorism is committed against them . Nicaragua took the case to the world court explained how the USA was sending information to the contras telling them where the Sandinistas were not so they could engage them but avoid them and attack “soft targets” like undefended villages , food supplies, churches , farming communities etc so the contras (“the moral equivalent of our founding fathers” according to Reagan) could go in rape 8 year old girls cut them up, skin them , with their bayonets and stuff their bodies with soap or coffee (it’s all pretty well spelled out in the case I don’t need to go on you get the picture I’m sure) . All of this was funded, trained and executed with the help of the US."

more information for other can be found at: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/...

also detailing the Libya, April 1986 incident:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

the libya incicdent was dubbed the worse act of terrorism of the year.

"The Court ruled in favor of Nicaragua calling the act “the illegal use of force” (international terrorism in plain English) . It ordered the US to pay massive reparations to Nicaragua for the damage bestowed on the country."

i've notice many america's can't seem to grasps that the US is capable of terrorism and not only that but has a history of it.

"The US then dismissed the courts authority and escalated the violence and bombing the week following the ruling. Nicaragua hasn’t received a penny in reparations."

as of 2004 repearations have not been received from the US either, although libya has made their reparation offer, but will not give the reperations until "it [US] compensates it [Libya] for the lives and property lost in the subsequent US air strikes on Libya."
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/10/2006 08:55 PM     
  @Classy and his false dichotomy  
 
He's looking for someone to tangle with, no one save for ignorant disciples of Rush Limbaugh and similar would come and persist with what he has, and argue against an undefined "left" -- anyone who speaks against Bush, as though they were a single group.

He's presenting a false and not fully defined dichotomy and I suggest benign neglect as the best policy for addressing him.
 
  by: Hollywood   10/10/2006 09:14 PM     
  @classy  
 
For someone who claims to want a civilized discussion with facts you sure do like to throw that 'the left' around. What is this 'left' you speak of? Does it come with kungfu grip action?
 
  by: bane39   10/10/2006 09:18 PM     
  @classy  
 
"I believe in free speech. To a certain extent. When you get into the ring with me, you better come with facts, if you spew that far left crap we will go to blows. I will have a civilized debate - but calling people names? After that, you dont have a political leg to stand on. Grow up."

chavez calling bush a devil is no different the the US calling saddam an evil dictator, or labeling countries "axis of evil", you support your right and your countries right to degrade other, but not vice versa... this is the definition of a hypocrit... why do you not condemn bush for it but you will freely condemn chavez?

"So I guess your right in a way - Im all for free speech as long as your civilized about it. Alaska stood up to Chavez, I applaud them for that. However, most of the left (at SN anyway) would like to think that the Alaskan people are ignorant, and cannot make an informed decision just because they didnt take freebies from Chavez."

no they were they that they MAY be ignorant or that they PROBABLY are ignorant... neither implies certianty, though you must admit theres a grave difference in the media that the US sees and the media that the rest of the world sees, so one can say american can be ignorant on world events, esspecially beyond their borders... without the internet just imagine how little perspective some people would get, just look at the war, the US (media) rarely ever shows you the war that is actually being fought but rather the war that has been sold to them (the american public).

"I would think quite the contrary, if the Alaskan people didnt know what was going on in the world, and someone came and tried to offer them help, why wouldnt they take it? According to you guys, they dont "Know any better"."

have you not noticed the gross ignorance on this sit alone by some people on the country of venezuela, it seems many people only source on information on the topic is what the government says about him... just imagine what other governments are telling their people about the US (and given the last few decades they wouldn't even have to lie to get support). most people think chavez is hated by his people, he's not, similiarly with castro, there is a gross amount of propaganda that has been fed to the american public to support their hatred of these countries... why... well namely because their communist and secondly becasue they will not bend over for the US.

"The left is getting vicious, your with us 100% or your against us, no in between."

and the right is becomming what???
have you notice what both side have let their country come to, though the left were the first to make opposition... your practically an inch from a dictatorship, for the last 4 years the right of americans have been trampled worse than any other event in recent history (for the US) i can think of... and the constitution... well you might as well flush it, bush (and his admin) has been wiping his ass with it since the first chance he got.

and actually it was bush that said your with us or against us... might want to remember this
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/10/2006 09:19 PM     
  @Classy  
 
"The left is getting vicious, your with us 100% or your against us, no in between." - Classy

Bush: "You are either with us or against us."

He's ignorant in a way few people could be, therefore arguing this issue with him is improbably difficult. Don't bother folk, he's a plant, or something of an unusually ignorant and persistent fool.
 
  by: Hollywood   10/10/2006 09:23 PM     
  @Hollywood  
 
"@Classy
"The left is getting vicious, your with us 100% or your against us, no in between." - Classy

Bush: "You are either with us or against us."

the actual diction used was:

"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." - george W bush (Sept. 20, 2001)
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/10/2006 09:37 PM     
  @classy  
 
"The left is getting vicious, your with us 100% or your against us, no in between."

Hollywood beat me to the punch but most would consider the right rather than the left to side with these Straussian type ideas. After all Leo Strauss was pretty much the father of Neo-Conservativism and stated very plainly that the world must be divided into black and white categories so you could control the masses. Paul Wolfowitz was a student of Strauss and many of the other members of the administrations inner circle subscribe to this way of thinking. Ex: “You are either with us or you are with the terrorists.”
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/10/2006 09:38 PM     
  hmm  
 
"If you guys think Chavez is so great, then move down to Venezuela, im sure your eliteist attitudes will work well down there."

You got it all wrong. It's not elitist if I want to share some of my wealth to help the poorest and use it so that as many people as possible get education and healthcare. I believe it strenghtens people and it strenghtens nations. It is however elitist to have a the top 1% of US population own 40% of the countrys wealth. They become wealthy and make sure to become even more wealthier by using billions of dollars each year to lobby even more for themselves.

Many americans vote for their american DREAM, rather than what they actually achieve. The last 5 years or so reports suggest that average wages have been stagnant and people are more in debt than they have been for a long time. In debt because people buy crap that they don't really need and because they need to loan more money to keep the quality of life at the same level as previously.

Not that I'm interested in communism, but left and right politics must be balanced so that it serves the welfare of as many people as possible.

"The fact is ... that when totalitarian nations like China and Saudi Arabia play ball with U.S. business interests, we like them just fine. But when Venezuela's freely elected president threatens powerful corporate interests, the Bush administration treats him as an enemy."
Robert Scheer, Los Angeles Times

Truth is. Free markets are a myth, we really don't believe in them. And we don't care whether a country is democratic or not, but rather if they serve our interests.

Good things happening in V:
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/...
 
  by: Kaleid   10/10/2006 09:50 PM     
  @Havoc  
 
"and the right is becomming what???"

Look at Bush's polls - his approval rating is what, 35%? Im not a neo con, and im not in the middle, just a little right of the line.

Bush has done this country an injustice, there is no argument from me there. But when the people of a country loose all faith in the government as a whole, where do we stand?

Im not mad Chavez called bush the devil. Chavez is a little kid that no one pays much attention to, so he runs around screaming like a little child to get attention. He wants more power, that is apparent from his comments saying he wants to be the "Voice of the third world".

Your right, I dont know much about chavez, but everytime I have heard him speak its mostly arrogant crap. That is much of the reason I dont like bush/cheney - they are too arrogant.

My view on the U.S. is that it should pull out of iraq, I think it will leave iraq in shambles, but thats what the iraqi people want. I think we should withdraw any troops we have in any foreign country, and just keep to ourselves from now on. We are the ones who put ourselves in this 'big brother' roll and i think we should get ourselves out.
 
  by: classy   10/10/2006 09:55 PM     
  @classy  
 
"Look at Bush's polls - his approval rating is what, 35%? Im not a neo con, and im not in the middle, just a little right of the line."

about that... between 33-39% this month so far.


"Bush has done this country an injustice, there is no argument from me there. But when the people of a country loose all faith in the government as a whole, where do we stand?"

hopefully behind the country, rather than the government where the four father's intended the americans to stand.

"Im not mad Chavez called bush the devil. Chavez is a little kid that no one pays much attention to, so he runs around screaming like a little child to get attention. He wants more power, that is apparent from his comments saying he wants to be the "Voice of the third world"."

whats wrong with him wanting to be the voice of the 3rd world... he's a great leader for his people and i think everyone can agree the 3rd world countries need a voice... preferably one that doesn't sacrafice the welfare of his people to bend over backward for the US... the US (and all of countries) really needs to stop exploiting 3rd world countries, or else learn to grit their teeth and accept the criticism for such.

"Your right, I dont know much about chavez, but everytime I have heard him speak its mostly arrogant crap. That is much of the reason I dont like bush/cheney - they are too arrogant."

as leaders tend to be... however most people familar with chavez can tell you that thus far his interests have always been with the people... not with his wallet, not with his closest buddies wallet and he certianly hasn't been pursuing ways or making people lives harders... hell bush demonises him, yet chavez has even been trying to assist some of america's poorest... this is either a tremendous show of character or someone going well out of his way to embarress the US.

"My view on the U.S. is that it should pull out of iraq, I think it will leave iraq in shambles, but thats what the iraqi people want. I think we should withdraw any troops we have in any foreign country, and just keep to ourselves from now on. We are the ones who put ourselves in this 'big brother' roll and i think we should get ourselves out."

i couldn't agree more with this... yes it will leave iraq in shamble... in a civil war... but in reality, they are already in the midst of the civil war. i remember seeing a poll only months after saddam was removed stating 70% of iraqis wanted the US out and saddam back... the fact the people wanted this didn't surprise me but rather the volume of people wanting this. personally i think that if they wanted sddam out as bad as the US makes it seem they could've easily accomplished this... just look at the resistance in iraq now. i think the US ought to get their own backyard cleaned up before attempting to aggressively "clean" someone elses backyard... for one, it gets them hated the world over and secondly its at the expense of americans, who for the most part are duped into supporting the government.

perhaps the US could worry about their healthcare and education... and maybe just maybe their ever increasing national debt... or are they going to do what many people in north america do and just sink into bankruptcy, personally i don't think any american wants to see this happen... i imagine the great depression would look like easy time in comparison to if the US utterly fell into bankruptcy... and with how many countries they've been oppressing the people in (think of cheap labor, not just the countries they've been warring with, and also the countries they've been sanctioning) i don't think you'll have all too many people rushing in to help bail the US out if it ever had to come to that.
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/10/2006 10:27 PM     
  Haha  
 
I am surprised that people believe this "nobody listens to Chavez" stuff. I guess that's what happens when the news in your country is so entangled with opinion.

I am also surprised that the word foreigner was used there, as if it makes any difference. It's a very weirdo isolationist idea that you're only allowed to say something about the US if you live in the US. But I guess Alaska is like, the frozen bayou. :P
 
  by: Fratley   10/11/2006 12:31 AM     
  @classy: moving out of Iraq  
 
Classy; please tell me why you say we should move out of Iraq? It's scary that I agree with you.

Did you know that many n.. center-right people want to stay in Iraq?

What is your opinion on Iran, NK, Lebanon, Palestine? Are you:
* the type to support a full tactical withdrawal and leaving the world to fester in it's own problems?
* or the type to move in and reassign troops to these regions and camp there?
 
  by: redstain   10/11/2006 03:29 AM     
  Back to Alaska topic  
 
Just some information for you guys:

Alaskan citizens get more U.S. federal dollars per person than any other U.S. State. (This is probably because Ted Stevens ... the president pro tempore of the Senate used to be the head of the appropriations committee and Don Young is one of the most powerful Congressmen ... he organized the whole bridge to nowhere thing... since he is the head of the Transportaion committee)

The majority of the funds go to the Alaskan Native villages up in the north part of Alaska. (This is the area that was offered the fuel.)

A lot of the money comes from the Department of the Interior for the operations of the tribal villages on an annual basis.


Back in the 70s the Federal government gave a huge chuck of money to Alaskan villages... with this money the Native people organized Village Corporations and Alaska Regional Corporations. (as of today some of these companies are billion dollar corportions). Back in like 2001 one of the regional corporations awarded 314 million dollars to their shareholders (the alaskan natives in their region are the shareholders...and there are only 600k people in all Alaska and the majority are non-natives)

One of the reasons why these corporations are sucessful is because the Alaska Native corporations are the ONLY entities that can received UNLIMITED federal government contracts. I bet most of you would be surprised to know of how many companies in the Continental US are subsidiaries the Alaska Native Corporations created to take advantage of the government needs in the other 49 States. (The majority of the subsidiaries are construction companies and transportation companies)

So it isn't really proper to say that the U.S. government isn't taking care of the Alaskan Native peoples.

The State of Alaska isn't that poor either... they are a State that doesn't need a State personal income tax or sales tax to operate... the State of Alaska taxes the oil companies and has gathered billions of dollars in a permanent fund (whose purpose is to use in case the State needs it... through right now a good chunk of the earnings of the permanent fund's investments are distributed to Alaskan residents)

The State of Alaska has been giving generous grants to help offset the costs of fuel to rural Alaskan communities.

So whatever you think, it isn't like the people up there will feeze to death if they don't accept the oil.


 
  by: Gekigangar3   10/11/2006 09:01 AM     
  Back to Alaska topic  
 
Just some information for you guys:

Alaskan citizens get more U.S. federal dollars per person than any other U.S. State. (This is probably because Ted Stevens ... the president pro tempore of the Senate used to be the head of the appropriations committee and Don Young is one of the most powerful Congressmen ... he organized the whole bridge to nowhere thing... since he is the head of the Transportaion committee)

The majority of the funds go to the Alaskan Native villages up in the north part of Alaska. (This is the area that was offered the fuel.)

A lot of the money comes from the Department of the Interior for the operations of the tribal villages on an annual basis.


Back in the 70s the Federal government gave a huge chuck of money to Alaskan villages... with this money the Native people organized Village Corporations and Alaska Regional Corporations. (as of today some of these companies are billion dollar corportions). Back in like 2001 one of the regional corporations awarded 314 million dollars to their shareholders (the alaskan natives in their region are the shareholders...and there are only 600k people in all Alaska and the majority are non-natives)

One of the reasons why these corporations are sucessful is because the Alaska Native corporations are the ONLY entities that can received UNLIMITED federal government contracts. I bet most of you would be surprised to know of how many companies in the Continental US are subsidiaries the Alaska Native Corporations created to take advantage of the government needs in the other 49 States. (The majority of the subsidiaries are construction companies and transportation companies)

So it isn't really proper to say that the U.S. government isn't taking care of the Alaskan Native peoples.

The State of Alaska isn't that poor either... they are a State that doesn't need a State personal income tax or sales tax to operate... the State of Alaska taxes the oil companies and has gathered billions of dollars in a permanent fund (whose purpose is to use in case the State needs it... through right now a good chunk of the earnings of the permanent fund's investments are distributed to Alaskan residents)

The State of Alaska has been giving generous grants to help offset the costs of fuel to rural Alaskan communities.

So whatever you think, it isn't like the people up there will feeze to death if they don't accept the oil.


 
  by: Gekigangar3   10/11/2006 09:14 AM     
  Lend creedence to your posts:  
 
Learn the difference between the word "your" and the contraction "you're".
Sorry if it's nit-picky, but it really obscures rational arguments when basic grammar is neglected.
 
  by: kentlm_21   10/11/2006 09:18 AM     
  @kentlm  
 
This is a worldwide forum and for many of the posters English is not their first language. I know my grammar would be atrocious if I had to post in Swahili. Try to live with it and do the best you can. Others are doing the best they can and the fact that they post at all shows they are trying. I appreciate that even if some of them are completely wrong LOL. For the American posters with bad grammar, blame it on No Child Left Behind. They should have been held back in school till they learned Basic English, this was not the case.
 
  by: Valkyrie123     10/11/2006 01:51 PM     
  @Gekigangar3: so it's greed and not poverty  
 
Gekigangar3, you are saying that these alaskan villages in actuality have all the resources afforded to them by the State funds? So they could not actually be needing extra-fuel.

Why would villages accept the oil? Could they be using Venezuelan Oil to heat their homes and pocketing the extra funds from the State for other purposes?
</end accusation>

 
  by: redstain   10/11/2006 07:50 PM     
  @kentlm_21  
 
You failed to conjugate "nit-picky" correctly. It should be "nit-picking".
 
  by: jendres     10/12/2006 01:48 AM     
  @redstain  
 
Its simple, I think we should get out of Iraq because they want us out. If we are screwing things up more now than they were when saddam was in power, we just need to leave.
 
  by: classy   10/12/2006 11:08 PM     
  Never thought I would say this...  
 
I agree with classy about iraq.
 
  by: slavefortheman     10/12/2006 11:16 PM     
  @slavefortheman  
 
me too... scary isn't it???...lol
 
  by: HAVOC666     10/13/2006 12:32 AM     
 
 
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