Female Muslim Teacher Fired for Teaching While Veiled
Aishah Azmi, a Muslim English teacher is allegedly claiming to have been fired from her job because she taught lessons while wearing a veil.
Students at Headfield Church of England Junior School are said to have complained about not being able to understand Azmi because they could not see her lips moving.
Bosses at the School had agreed to Miss Azmi wearing the veil around the school, just not while she taught. A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Great Britain commented that Islamic women do not need to wear veils in front of children.
she loses her case, the veil all be it a part of the muslim culture i find it to be a sign of seperation and it is pritty ignorante to think she could teach in a school while having her face hidden.
Its a church of england school, she should have respected the schools religious grounds. I feel that the christian school did the right thing letting her wear the veil at all. If it was a public school, thus a government entity, then ok her rights may have been infringed (hard to clarify as even the Muslim council said she does not need to in class), but if it was a private cristian school, private reilious organisation, then she has no grounds to complain.
country where peoplewore veils, yet the british/ american/ australian teachers wore what they wanted and no one told them anything. She could have taken it off if she had a guarantee that no man would enter the class and see her and assuming the kids she is teaching are very young. Otherwise, what the school did is discriminate against religion and in my opinion this is wrong.
"She could have taken it off if she had a guarantee that no man would enter the class and see her and assuming the kids she is teaching are very young"
Why on earth should the school make such rediculous concessions for this woman. She is there to teach children and if her religious beliefs are getting in the way of this then she simply has to go.
Imagine a religion where it was illegal to teach children. Would firing a woman from her teaching job because she refused to teach the children be unfairly discriminating against her religion? I know it's a far fetched idea but I'm just trying to explain how a persons religion cannot realistically take precedence in every situation
christian school or not, there is no reason the woman should've been fired for wearing a veil. there is nothing in christian doctrine which prohibits the wearing of a veil. in fact, some orthodox christian women do cover their hair in a similar gesture. the only reason a christian school has any grounds in firing her on basis of religion is if she teaches against the christian doctrine associated with the school. this was not the case in her situation.
i attended 12 years of catholic school. my teachers taught catholic teachings, though many of them were not catholic. religious institution or not, everyone is entitled to follow the rules of their religion as long as they dont contradict those being taught. imagine if a jewish teacher were fired for wearing a yamika. the ignorance and fear is astounding here.
This is getting completely out of hand - in my little cousins school, they now have a prayer building where Muslims can go if they need to pray. Nothing wrong with that right? Wrong - they now go to pray in the MIDDLE of classes.
'Miss can i go pray please?' 'Sure off you go!'
Im terribly confused - why is it now that this one religion out of many has the need to suddenly have so many 'needs' that conflict readily with the way society functions in the West? Missing out key points in a class because one needs to commune with God AND in this case needing to wear a veil even though I am sure the pupils find it more than distracting...
This reminds me of the British case where a Muslim pupil lost the attempt to wear her 'religious' outfit to a private school where 'everyone' else was in school uniform.
I really think that this is the time where Muslims need to keep a low profile. In a world where prejudice and generalisations are king and Islamic radicalists are doing their hardest to get the world to hate Islam and everyone that follows it, one may want to try and just keep one to oneself.
One doesnt 'need' to of course. Just common sense and a realisation that 2006 and the world as it is now doesnt exactly look like its going in a good direction (to put it lightly) all of this is soon likely going to get 'way' out of hand.
Also the new Southpark episode summed things up just perfectly. At this moment in time one is able to poke fun at every religion in the world. Except Islam. Thats right Islam is becoming the ultimate taboo but its not out of respect at all. And that is the dangerous thing.
I'm sorry but it seems you are not reading this correctly. The muslim council even said it was alright for her to remove the veil during class, her wearing the veil while teaching was causing a problem with the children. So, if you pay someone to do a job, and they do not do a satisfactory job based on "their own" belief. they should be fired. thats just how businesses work. If the muslim council said she was required to wear the veil at all times, then it would be unlawful. since she had an alternative that she didnt take, it costs her the job. simple as that.
"Why on earth should the school make such rediculous concessions for this woman. She is there to teach children and if her religious beliefs are getting in the way of this then she simply has to go." the school hired her for her skills and not what she looks like/ wears/ believes in. Discriminating against this woman is the same as racism, sexism and agism in my opinion. If she can do the job and has the skills then it's her job, if the veil is killing them and seriously affecting the children's learning (although i was taught by a veiled teacher and it was fine) then they can give her an administrative role but kicking her from her job is just wrong.
Because a line needs to be drawn somewhere. All of this is due to the almost 'scared' response to anything Islam that is allowing some Muslims to go further and further with their requests/demands.
Currently we have prayer time in the middle of classes here in the Uk it seems, teachers wearing veils in this news article, pupils asking for religious outfits in a private school once more in the UK.. etc..
Whats next - the teachers themselves asking for time out to have prayers in the middle of their own classes? Honestly, the idea of a teacher wearing a veil is absurb enough.. to even think that the pupils should be expectd to concentrate with something like that is one thing and her refusing to remove it is a clear ground for immediate dismissal.
Either way as I said above, all these people finding themselves in the news and the word 'Islam' constantly being highlighted is definitely not a good thing for Muslims.
When it comes to religion I don't care what people choose to believe. However, when it comes to teaching the kids I don't see how some weirdo wearing a sack should be allowed to teach. If I send my kids to a Church of England school, I expect them to be taught according to my belief system, not by some scary looking woman mumbling into her veil.
To have a veiled Muslim woman teaching in a British Church of England school is a complete joke. She needs to pack her bags and go live in Iran.
For those Americans reading this who think I am being harsh, please remember that Britain is not a melting pot. Britain is not a country that guarantees freedom of religious expression. Britain is a country with an official language and an official religion. While Britain tolerates other religions and freedom to worship, there is no legal or ethical reason why it should bend over backwards to accept these people. They have chosen to move to Britain, if they don't want to integrate, then they need to leave.
isn't in her religion, it is her interpretation of her religion.
Now if we let people arbitarily decide what is in there relgion over-rides their responsibilities to wider society, then society has no responsibility to that individual.
eg. I believe in the invisible spagetti monster and I interpret his teachings to require me to beat walk around with completely naked and to block my ears while I listen to children. Should I be allowed to teach?
yea,yea right. ". They have chosen to move to Britain, if they don't want to integrate, then they need to leave."
And for how long British ruled india?? Was it 350 years!!?? And let me guess, during these years, they spoke Hindi right? and taught Geeta's mantra!!? ( Kinko doing ali's shuffle on ZCT) one two one two>>>>
Tolerance my friend, tolerance. These ideas of westerners thinking, they are made of teflon, while the rest is a plain canvas is now turning around and facing you with arms akimbo.
Commenting on an issue is everyones right. We make independent comments because we are individual thinkers. However commenting with an atittude of dehumanizing and looking down, merely becasue of gender or color is a waste of time.
I am Muslim and will make my stance clear. I disagree with what she did. That is, wearing a face covering Veil as depicted. It's not only obstructive to children who are still mastering their communication skills, they dont hear you while reading your moving lips let alone if you cover them. As Jendres said. "It is the interpretation of her own" This time I think, this is much more political than religious; is this a coincidence that, this happens after Commons leader Jack Straw angers muslim with his stupid remarks. That tabloids are having a wonderful issue to print of anything that is veiled! I wont be surprised to see a depiction of Ninja, pronounced as Aishah Azmi. But lets just be fair.
@Not so Classy: I wonder what begets this hate. You simply hate, dunno how you live with yourself harbouring such emotion all the time, beats me. " Heaven forbid we stand up to muslim people that WE ARE PAYING to teach our children."
What you dont know is that, muslims' sorry let me correct myslef. Islam has been a pioneer of many things that you are enjoying today, including the soap that you wash with. If they taught the World how to cleanse with purity of germs free, than allow and be proud, if it means your children will learn from a person who's religion happens to be islam. Do not directly hate the persons religion, but perhaps, persons teaching methods. Otherwise teach your children yourslef. Because that Priest, you trust your child with, is actually hurting your childs faculties as well as his rear end. Moronics gestures towards priests religion would be unfair. Christianity does not doctrine Paedophillia. Islam is not religion of Terrorists and neither is Christianity religion of paedophiles. Unless your faculty or rear was damaged??huh!!
“And for how long British ruled india?? Was it 350 years!!?? And let me guess, during these years, they spoke Hindi right?”
- No Britain showed up in India and took over, just like they did to about half the world at one time or other. I don’t agree with what they did, but I don’t think I should carry some kind of shame over the actions of my ancestors who died a few hundred years ago. The actions of the British back then does not mean we should bend over backwards to accept each and every person that comes to our shore, apologize for what we did, and then change our culture to suit them.
“Tolerance my friend, tolerance.”
- I am perfectly tolerant. I am in fact an immigrant myself. I left England and moved to the US. Do you think I lecture people here on speaking the Queen’s English? Do you think I refuse to use Americanisms? No. I am a guest in this country and so I have tried hard to integrate into this culture. I would not dream of expecting all Americans to do things my way, or try to make me feel more like I was back in England. Yet for some reason SOME Muslims show up in England and expect England to change to suit them. And I know, I worked for many years in inner city Birmingham, and surrounding areas. I met many Muslims, and worked with some too. I know that some integrate very well, and some keep themselves apart and deliberately refuse to integrate. My problem is with the latter, and not the former.
“Commenting on an issue is everyones right. We make independent comments because we are individual thinkers. However commenting with an atittude of dehumanizing and looking down, merely becasue of gender or color is a waste of time.”
- I don’t give a crap if this woman was gay, straight, black, white, transgendered or a Satan worshiper. My problem is that she has been screwed over by extremist religion and forced to dress like this. I am disgusted that women should be treated in this horrible manner. But despite the abuse this woman has suffered at the hands of her religion and radical end of her culture, I don’t think she should be teaching in a Church of England school. I think that many students are going to be a little weirded out by some woman in a bee keeper costume. I also feel that it sends the wrong message to the kids. Allowing this woman to teach is telling the kids that it is okay for certain cultures to enslave their women and treat them as second class citizens, when it is simply not okay. The way women are treated in the more extremist Muslim sects is quite repugnant, and there is just no place for that in modern Britain. If they want to treat women in this vile manner, they need to do so elsewhere.
”I am Muslim and will make my stance clear. I disagree with what she did. That is, wearing a face covering Veil as depicted. It's not only obstructive to children who are still mastering their communication skills, they dont hear you while reading your moving lips let alone if you cover them...”
- Actually I don’t have a problem with the woman; I have a problem with the evil bastards that put her in this position. No women should be forced to dress in this manner. I know that many Muslim groups allow women to dress in a pretty western way. However, there exists in Britain small sects of the Muslim religion in which women are treated like slaves. This should not be tolerated or accepted. It is not right to just say that it’s their right, or their culture. Subjugating women, treating them as property, forcing them to wear special costumes that hide their face is never okay. If they wish to live in Britain they must learn the British way or get out. Hiding discrimination and degrading women under the guise of religious or cultural freedom it just not any way to progress as a society. Standing by and doing nothing while pockets of immigrants do this, is as bad as doing it yourself.
Why do muslim people demand segregation in multicultural countries Why do we have to pander to these idiots.Why can't the assimilate like everyone else or do the think islam is the superieor race and they want to walk all over everyone like they treat US like trash. We have rights too. If I walk down the street or in a bank I would be arrested why are THEY allowed to?
This isnt racism This isnt sexism This isnt relgious persecution.
This woman was fired because HER actions prevented her from teaching.
If my religion prevented me from speaking anything but Glossia (battle language), would I be allowed to teach french? What if I denied the exhistance of magnestism, would I be allowed to teach physics.
Her CHOICE to wear a veil interfered with her ability to teach.
"My problem is that she has been screwed over by extremist religion and forced to dress like this."
It doesnt matter how much you try to hide behind that bravado of yours, your intentions are very clear. You assume it is the religion (Islam) that puts her in this situation by coercion, hence her, having no choice, except for few friends you know whom dress their women in western way.
"This should not be tolerated or accepted. It is not right to just say that it’s their right, or their culture. Subjugating women, treating them as property, forcing them to wear special costumes that hide their face is never okay. If they wish to live in Britain they must learn the British way or get out." BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Why is it some of you think that, this is impossed on women by their men?? This goes to show, how Men thinks. The assumption that women cant make or have a choice is general in men, hence designating themselves as protectors of their women, just the way you think! If you had any idea or were informed about Islam, I am sure you wouldnt make this idiotic comment. Stop with your macho atittude and dont frown upon the religion, as you are trying very hard to make us believe otherwise.
"Actually I don’t have a problem with the woman; I have a problem with the evil bastards that put her in this position. No women should be forced to dress in this manner. I know that many Muslim groups allow women to dress in a pretty western way."
Oh and here we go again. Your western ways are better so all muslims should allow such behaviour. Only if you would get off your western high horse and accept that, just like the westerners, there are Easterners and Southeners and Northerners. Since you dont want to be the one to have to answer to your stupid ancestors mistakes, I would hope, you will cease behaving like your ancestors. But I know for a fact, a snake beggets a snake.
@Cavador: They have Banks where they come from and they dont get arrested when they go to these Banks. It's not segregation, it is recognition. When my wife or daughter wears a hijab, it is just to let you. Yes you, know that she is a muslim. so instead of you looking at her T&A, simply appreciate, the humanity of those who chose to be modest. Just to enlighten: Ali McBeal was ejected from a court house because she was doning a Mini skirt way above her knees. I guess there is a limit right?? Which Westerners like to draw when it befits. Why? Unfortuantely again its imposed on women. To look a certain way and to dress in certain way. If a Nun dons her habit in public and at the Bank, she is respected as a devout woman, but not a muslim, who is oppressd by her Men.
Anyone dumb enough to think believeing in a god requires a dress code deserves to be jobless and cast out of society for being stupid. This is why you shouldn't hire anyone who might have a strange religion.
"I'm sorry but it seems you are not reading this correctly. The muslim council even said it was alright for her to remove the veil during class, her wearing the veil while teaching was causing a problem with the children. So, if you pay someone to do a job, and they do not do a satisfactory job based on "their own" belief. they should be fired. thats just how businesses work. If the muslim council said she was required to wear the veil at all times, then it would be unlawful. since she had an alternative that she didnt take, it costs her the job. simple as that."
so if someone complains about a christian teacher wearng a cross in school and the teacher fails to remove it... this is ground for dismal... lets say for instance the some girls starring at it because its shiny, and theres a few non-christians who find it offensive. failure to remove the cross is surely grounds for the teachers dismissal right.
if the teacher could not be heard through the veil the logical (i know this is expecting alot from people) thing to do be ask her to speak more clearly/loudly; more audiably.
“It doesnt matter how much you try to hide behind that bravado of yours, your intentions are very clear. You assume it is the religion (Islam) that puts her in this situation by coercion, hence her, having no choice, except for few friends you know whom dress their women in western way.”
- It is not an assumption it is an observation. Are you really trying to claim that Muslim women can wear whatever they like, but simply choose to wear this restrictive garb? Sorry but I don’t buy that BS. The only reason women dress like that is because they have been taught to dress like that and behave in a submissive way. Women are not property, they should not be dressed a certain way, they should be free to dress as they please, within the confines of societal standards (for example, there are not many societies where it is acceptable for a woman to be topless).
”Why is it some of you think that, this is impossed on women by their men?? This goes to show, how Men thinks. The assumption that women cant make or have a choice is general in men, hence designating themselves as protectors of their women, just the way you think!”
- How naive you are. Look back at human history over the course of the last few hundred years. It is quite clear that women were not in charge. Women were not even allowed to vote until recently, and still can’t in many societies. For you to imply that women invented the Burqa, and decided to wear it with no influence from men, is quite preposterous.
“If you had any idea or were informed about Islam, I am sure you wouldnt make this idiotic comment. Stop with your macho atittude and dont frown upon the religion, as you are trying very hard to make us believe otherwise.”
- Quite frankly, I am sick of hearing about how Islam is so misunderstood, how peaceful it is. All I see is subjugation of women, barbaric mutilation, torture and murder, and revolting acts of terrorism. Even among less extreme Islamic countries, women are still treated as second class citizens.
”Oh and here we go again. Your western ways are better so all muslims should allow such behaviour. Only if you would get off your western high horse and accept that, just like the westerners, there are Easterners and Southeners and Northerners. Since you dont want to be the one to have to answer to your stupid ancestors mistakes, I would hope, you will cease behaving like your ancestors.”
- Here is the difference. In the past, British people invaded other countries and imposed their beliefs, customs and laws upon others. This was of course completely wrong. What is happening here is that Britain has opened their borders to immigrants and offered them the opportunity to live in an affluent country with wonderful human rights, welfare benefits and free health care. All that Britain asks in return is that these people become members of the society, or leave. For many British people, including myself, we find it rather unpalatable that we offer these people so much, and in return they refuse to even make the smallest compromises.
You accuse me of being on a high horse, being idiotic, frowning on your religion. But to me it seems to me that you are the one who is out of line. You are name calling, insulting my ancestors, ridiculing my opinion. How does this make you any better? Imagine this situation were reversed for a moment. Imagine a white Christian women were to show up in a strict Muslim country. Imagine she were to take a job teaching children. Imagine she wore a small dress, and exposed her arms and legs. Imagine she got fired and tried to sue, and demand that society to be changed to suit her beliefs. Just how do you believe this would go down? You are demanding that Britain and British people be more tolerant, and simply change their culture to suit these immigrants. But I ask you, how many Muslim countries would be willing to do this, if there situation were reversed.
"Fire them all. Anyone dumb enough to think believeing in a god requires a dress code deserves to be jobless and cast out of society for being stupid. This is why you shouldn't hire anyone who might have a strange religion."
what bliss ignorance must be
are you aware that your statement suggests you're a bigot?
"- How naive you are. Look back at human history over the course of the last few hundred years. It is quite clear that women were not in charge. Women were not even allowed to vote until recently, and still can’t in many societies. For you to imply that women invented the Burqa, and decided to wear it with no influence from men, is quite preposterous."
actually i'm rather sure that certian areas of the middle east had women voting well before america did. for the most part middle-eastern women dress modest as a show of respect (for themselves), whereas western society has exploited sexual appeal, namely for personal gain.
"- Quite frankly, I am sick of hearing about how Islam is so misunderstood, how peaceful it is. All I see is subjugation of women, barbaric mutilation, torture and murder, and revolting acts of terrorism. Even among less extreme Islamic countries, women are still treated as second class citizens."
all i see from american (prodominately christians) in iraq is a much of murdering, torturing, "revolting acts of terrorism" (illegal, excessive force, with the goal of political change), and domestically well muslims and middle-easterner are subject to racial profiling not just by the government but the bulk of society.
in my opinion christians and muslims all the branchs of each are all one and the same... each with a handful full of bad apples.
You are preaching to the choir. I oppose all fundamentalist radical religious groups. I certainly have no love for Christianity, they have much blood on their hands too.
I was also not making any judgments about America. I was talking about British culture.
As to voting issues, you'd have to give me some facts, rather than supposition.
As far as womens clothing goes, to imply that all western women dress immodestly to cash in on their sex appeal, is pretty unrealistic. But I'd rather them do that, than have them publicly flogged or stoned to death for daring to show some skin.
sp00ky187 =If I generalize I get abused,If I specify I get abused-I just can't win.(Learn to spell-decribed is not a word) l'anglais =I'm not going into this stupid race or religion crap.I was just using the word to refer to a so called master race.(Remember what happened 1939-1945-a master race took over Europe and most of the Eastern Block countries?) I rest my case and thank you for letting me have freedom of speech.
Unfortunately biggotry is perfectly acceptable and isn't a bad thing. I have the right to dislike someone because of the choices they make. I do not have a right to dislike someone for their skin color. If someone joins a cult then trys to tell me that they need to wear a vail at all times, I would tell them they are weird and fire them. Would you hire someone who wears wife beaters and has tatoos over 99% of their body for a job where one needs to dress formal? NO! And of course you wouldn't hire someone who hides their face for a job that requires social interaction.
No where does the Islamic religion state that women cover their hair/should wear a veil.
I work in a building full of free-headed Muslim women, so I thought I'd just make it clear. You seem to be implying Muslim religion forces this woman to be veiled, when in fact it does not.
I agree with the firing and don't think she was discriminated against. She was asked to remove the veil for communications sake, didn't and got the sack. If my boss asks me to do something and I don't do it, I'll probably be rightly fired as well.
My thoughts on her false interpretation of her own religion are many and varied but mostly I just feel sorry for her. She's either been brought in an extreme background or goes along with other Muslim women she knows who have been. It's really quite sad.
Of course people have a right to wear practically what they like, but they have to know that they may lose something by doing so. A person with a swearword tattooed on his or her forehead is not going to be able to find a job on the counter of the local bank. Someone wearing a crash helmet or mirror sunglasses is going to be regarded suspiciously. And women wearing the veil are not going to be welcomed into jobs where human communication is important, such as teaching. Had she worn her Veil to her job interview and stated she intended to wear it while teaching i very much doubt she would have got the job in the first place.
I would not be happy for my children to be taught at a school that allows its staff to wear full veils. A full veil is a very effective mask. If a school allows it’s members of staff to be masked, then what is to stop someone with other intentions wearing a veil, walking into a school and abducting a child.
The child will assume that this person is a teacher, and therefore will do anything they say, such as “come with me - we’re going on a field trip to the chocolate factory”.
If anyone sees a child leaving with a veiled person (under the full robes it could be male or female) they too may assume it to be a teacher. When the police appeal for witnesses what description of the ‘teacher’ could they give?
I don’t care if it is a religious belief, the safety of my children takes precedence.
Listen, I used to work in the UK in the Midlands, where there are thousands of Muslims. I've worked with them, and treated them as patients. So I fully understand that for most of them, this kind of dress is not required.
What I am saying is that the sect that this woman is a member of has basically brainwashed her into thinking that she needs to be veiled among men. In her rebuttal she is trying to imply that this is a personal choice, but that is simply not true. She has been raised this way and led to believe that she should behave in this manner.
What I find so astonishing when I read her response is how she talks about her beliefs and her rights as a British citizen. It's amazing how quick she is to demand her rights and privileges, but how little she is willing to budge to integrate into British society.
Imagine if she was actually born and raised in Iran. Imagine if she one day decided to wear a bikini, or shorts, or a mini skirt, or become a Christian. Imagine if she wanted to dress like a Westerner in her place of work. She would be lucky to escape with a punishment that was less than death.
She is using her rights as a British citizen, to support an oppressive sexist culture, that still uses torture, corporal punishment, mutilation, and beheading as state sponsored law. A regime in which women are forced into servitude by men. Again, I am not talking about ALL Muslims, I am talking about the extremist ones who support veils and highly restrictive garb.
As I’ve said before, I have no challenge with any kind of belief system that people choose to have. But if it affects their job, if it encourages sexism or suffering of others then I have a problem with it. This woman needs to be grateful that she lives in a free society, that she has a voice, that she has rights to speak out. She is living in a different world than her parents or grandparents. But instead of embracing this new world, she wants to cherry pick the advantages of living in the UK, and refuse to compromise or integrate at all. That’s what I find objectionable.
I dont understand why is it that you are still implying "You know" while realisticaly you dont know your elbow from your rear end when it comes to Islam.
Fact is NO Woman in islam is forced by their men to wear hijab. For those who choose to do so, are simply following Chapter 24 verse 31.
Implication here is not that women are not degraded in society, be it Islamic or Christian. It is your idiom that is making me realize that, there is simply a distinction between observation and arriving to a conclussion or simply concluding from what you think you know.
I am not bashing your ancetsors I am simply stating out facts of their atrocities on humanity. Which we are still paying for, from their mistakes. If you want say I am bashing, then I will accept that I am bashing their mistakes.
If you still dont want to buy into this BS of choice and obligation, fine with me. But this just goes to show, you need some learning to do, especially when it comes to other ethnic or religious groups. Onething I will agree with you is that women are not properties, and for once do not assume they are in Islam. "Quite frankly, I am sick of hearing about how Islam is so misunderstood, how peaceful it is. All I see is subjugation of women, barbaric mutilation, torture and murder, and revolting acts of terrorism. Even among less extreme Islamic countries, women are still treated as second class citizens"
YES Islam is peaceful and if we were all to direct the actions of Christians around the world, we would not come to any other conclusion except that it is a religion of PEDOPHILES, WAR MONGERS, HATERS, PORNO CREATORS ETC ETC. But we dont. And by we, I mean muslims, If you want to know why, it is because my religion has taught me alot about yours. Who is Jesus and all other prophets, what is it's stem and I cant utter any BS about a religion of Jesus. So ask me and I will tell you again. Islam is a religion of Peace. dont look at Muslims and assume their behaviour to be Islamic. I hope you understand me now.
“I dont understand why is it that you are still implying "You know" while realisticaly you dont know your elbow from your rear end when it comes to Islam.”
- Islam is just another form of societal control. A belief that some magic invisible man exists behind some invisible curtain making everything work. It was born out of the desire to control people, and to explain the unexplainable. Your religion is no superior, or no more true than any other religion. It is pretty arrogant to assume that 5/6ths of the world population who don’t believe in Islam are all wrong. It is also pretty arrogant of Muslims to try to change England to their ideals, when they make up less than 3% of the population.
”Fact is NO Woman in islam is forced by their men to wear hijab. For those who choose to do so, are simply following Chapter 24 verse 31.”
- There is little point in us continuing this discussion if you are not going to read anything I write. Are you really so naive as to believe that one day this 24 year old woman picked up the Quran, read that verse and decided that she needed to wear a veil? That is a stupid assertion. It is pretty obvious that this woman has been influenced by her upbringing, and that this kind of behavior was invented by man at some point in history. You don’t see such ridiculously oppressive values taught to men do you?
”Implication here is not that women are not degraded in society, be it Islamic or Christian. It is your idiom that is making me realize that, there is simply a distinction between observation and arriving to a conclussion or simply concluding from what you think you know.”
- I made the assertion that Muslim women were treated as second class citizens by Muslim men. For you not to believe this is again, quite naive. But there are plenty of Islamic countries around the world. I’d like to see how far these ‘equality’ goes in some of these countries.
“I am not bashing your ancetsors I am simply stating out facts of their atrocities on humanity.”
- Now you are just being idiotic. You have no idea what my ancestors were doing hundreds of years ago. They might have been artists, clergymen, tavern owners, or farmers. Just because I am from a country that once invaded some other countries, doesn’t mean I need to feel guilty about that. This happened before my great grandparents were born.
“Which we are still paying for, from their mistakes.”
- So now you speak for all Muslims? And you imply I am the arrogant one.
“If you want say I am bashing, then I will accept that I am bashing their mistakes.”
- Will you also bash the mistakes of those who commit atrocities in the name of your religion? How about 9/11? How about 7/7?
”If you still dont want to buy into this BS of choice and obligation, fine with me. But this just goes to show, you need some learning to do, especially when it comes to other ethnic or religious groups.”
- It is you, who “need some learning to do.” I don’t need to learn about ethnic or religious groups. Britain is Britain. People can choose to move there, and provided they meet immigration guidelines can make their home there. It is not up to British people to educate themselves about these immigrants. The onus is on the immigrants and the children of immigrants to learn about British culture and learn to fit in.
I speak as an immigrant myself. I moved to America. I didn’t start telling Americans that they need to learn about my culture, my beliefs, and my religion. I learned about their culture, and learned how I could try to fit in. This is what one does when one moves to a foreign country. To expect a country to change to suit the immigrant is completely absurd, and unacceptable.
“Onething I will agree with you is that women are not properties, and for once do not assume they are in Islam.”
- This is not an assumption, this is knowledge and experience. I see how life is in Muslim countries when I read books, watch the news, and hear interviews with actual Muslim women living in these countries. But if you want to argue the point let’s take a look at some verses from the Quran:
2:222 – Menstruation is a sickness.
4:11 – Men should inherit twice that of a women.
4:15 – Lewd women should be confined to their home, until they can be executed.
2:228 – Men are ‘a degree above’ women.
4:98 – Women are feeble like children and cannot come up with good ideas.
4:176 – Another assertion that men are worth two women in an inheritance.
23:6 – Likens women to slaves and possessions.
33:59 – Women must cover themselves in public.
37:22 – Men who sin will go to hell, and their wives will go with them, regardless of how the women behaved.
The list goes on. To pretend, as you do, that women are treated fairly and not oppressed by Islam, is just patently absurd, and no doubt part of your brainwashing.
“YES Islam is peaceful and if we were all to direct the actions of Christians around the world, we would not come to any other conclusion except that it is a religion of PEDOPHILES, WAR MONGERS, HATERS, PORNO CREATORS ETC ETC. But we dont.”
- Well clearly you do, because you just made the implication. Now I know you like to write as if you were speaking for all Muslims, and I know that you are not, but are you really implying that Muslims don’t do any of the things you just talked about? Do you think that there are no pedophiles in Muslim countries? Please.
“And by we, I mean muslims, If you want to know why, it is because my religion has taught me alot about yours.”
- I don’t have a religion. I don’t represent that Christianity is any better or worse than Islam. I’ve never said that.
“So ask me and I will tell you again. Islam is a religion of Peace. dont look at Muslims and assume their behaviour to be Islamic. I hope you understand me now.”
- It’s great that you like your religion and see it as a religion of peace. Most religious people like to believe that about their own specific brand of God worship. I understand that we can’t judge all Muslim people by 9/11. I understand that we cannot judge all Christians, by Bush invading Iraq. But we are getting off track here.
The situation is that many people in Britain are uncomfortable dealing with people dressed up in strange robes and a veiled face. Especially since the terror attacks. People in Britain should not have to deal with this if they don’t want to. It’s their country, and their right. In England and Wales less than 3% of people are Muslim. Of those only a tiny fraction believe that it is necessary to dress in this strange manner. So why the heck should Britain change its culture for what amounts to less than 0.5% of the population? This is the only point I am making here. You can try to vilify me for making it, you can try and tell me how great the Islamic principles are, but at the end of the day, if well under half a percent of people living in Britain don’t like the way things are going, they can choose to leave, or choose to fit in. Either works for me.
