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02/21/2007 01:01 PM ID: 60452 Permalink   

School Girl Loses Veil Case

 

A 12-year-old girl has lost a legal battle against her school, which forbade her to wear a full-face veil. This despite the fact that the girl's three older sisters had worn full-face veils at the same school without resistance.

Teachers at the school had told this girl, however, that the veil would make communication and learning difficult. The court ruled in their favour, and the girl will continue to be taught at home, as she has been since last autumn.

"My client and her family are not the extremists that they have been portrayed as by some elements of the press," said the girl's solicitor. "All she wants is to be able to practise her deeply held beliefs whilst getting on with her daily life."

 
  Source: news.bbc.co.uk  
    WebReporter: Volkova_Nova Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  76 Comments
  
  Until  
 
Respect for humanity is restored and bigotry is gone, we will never leave side by side.

This is a very good example of peoples right down the drain. A muslim who covers herself properly and according to her religion is deemed extremist.

Nun wearing a habit is virgin of GOD!

I must say, it really aggravates me.
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 01:28 PM     
  school  
 
She should go to a full veil school then
 
  by: robface84   02/21/2007 01:44 PM     
  @Kinko  
 
Nuns arent 12 year old girls.

Covering your face is not part of the British culture, taking steps to hide your face is generaly extremely rude and only undertaken by those with criminal intentions.

If you cant walk into a bank with a crash helmet on, why should you be allowed with a veil?

She isnt being singled out, anyone else who demanded to go to school with their face covered would get much the same treatment.
 
  by: GogeVandire   02/21/2007 02:09 PM     
  Hey SHUT-UP!  
 
Nuns DON'T cover their faces.
They also have a right to wear a habit because they have passed a theology course by living in a convent for several years.(Similar to doing a university course.
Muslim women are only wannabe nuns.
According to Islamic law women are not permitted to preach the Koran only the men are.(That's why I label them as
"Wannabe Nuns")
 
  by: cavador   02/21/2007 02:21 PM     
  I agree with Gogevandire  
 
In the Netherlands we have the same sort of issue going on. But not only in schools but also on the street. It's not part of our culture to walk down the streets with your face hidden.
As long as it is still 'our' culture people should respect that and otherwise move out of the country.
In the Netherlands we are so getting tired of this you wouldn't believe it.
We have loads of cultures here and the only ones that make daily demands and give us huge amounts of problems (example: Imams stating that homosexuals should be killed and every muslim has the irght to kill them) seem to be muslims. Oh sure there are good folk out there who will suffer because of the 'bad' ones but we have learned here that the majority are the 'bad' ones.
I know noone wants to hear this and people will accuse me of being racist and what have you not but live in my country for a while and you will know what I am talking about.

The fact that we are getting tired of it could be seen when Theo van Gogh was murdered by a muslim 'extremist'. Things almost exploded here and loads of people were extremely worried that this could be the moment that it all got out of control. Police were positioned near mosques and schools islamic schools and mosques went up in flames.
Obviously those who did that were a minority but the majority saw it comming and it's only a matter of time before it really gets out of control despite that research that was mentioned here in Shortnews.
 
  by: Flutje   02/21/2007 02:30 PM     
  @Goge  
 
"Covering your face is not part of the British culture, taking steps to hide your face is generaly extremely rude and only undertaken by those with criminal intentions."

What is British culture? _ _ _ _

Does this infringe on British Culture? _ _ _ _


"If you cant walk into a bank with a crash helmet on, why should you be allowed with a veil?"

Will this statement include NUNs whether 12 years old or 120! _ _ _ _

"She isnt being singled out, anyone else who demanded to go to school with their face covered would get much the same treatment."

Thats utterly not true. Read the source again and this is what it says."Mr Justice Silber had been told that the girl's three older sisters had attended the same school and had worn the niqab with no problems."

What happened on the 4th one!!? Brits sense of tolerance wore off? Or is it, "You are with us or with them" that triggered this insensitivity!? Which one is it?

Goge and alike. Sun does not shine under your bellys. This girl probably born in Britain all of a sudden is singled out, because of her adherence to her religion. I was wondering if you have any idea, whats the difference between culture and religion? How much more ignorant can a society be? Especially when this society has people who think like "taking steps to hide your face is generaly extremely rude and only undertaken by those with criminal intentions." CRIMINAL INTENTION?

Well continue chasing your <deleted> tail <deleted>. Because 12 years old cant be NUNS and Cant be criminals either.

I SAID IT BEFORE. STOP TOLERATING AND LEARN TO ACCEPT THE DIFFERENCES. We cant all be the same. This is part of recognition not dispersion. We recognize each other, by our dress codes, colour of skin and culture; and dont use those criterias to segregate as you lot do, nor to frown upon. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 02:38 PM     
  @Kinko  
 
"Covering your face is not part of the British culture, taking steps to hide your face is generaly extremely rude and only undertaken by those with criminal intentions."

What is British culture? _ _ _ _

Does this infringe on British Culture? _ _ _ _

*************
Whats any culture?
A set of shared moral views, traditions ect.
I'm not going to try and turn 3 millenia of history into a paragraph.



"If you cant walk into a bank with a crash helmet on, why should you be allowed with a veil?"

Will this statement include NUNs whether 12 years old or 120! _ _ _ _
***********
Yes, it does as far as I'm concerned, when I rana pub, if you walked in with an obscured face, I reached for my kosh, asked you to take hat/scarf whatever off, either you did, you left, Or I bashed you.

Its HER relgion to cover her face, its not mine to have unknown people near me.


"She isnt being singled out, anyone else who demanded to go to school with their face covered would get much the same treatment."

Thats utterly not true. Read the source again and this is what it says."Mr Justice Silber had been told that the girl's three older sisters had attended the same school and had worn the niqab with no problems."

What happened on the 4th one!!? Brits sense of tolerance wore off? Or is it, "You are with us or with them" that triggered this insensitivity!? Which one is it?
************
Pretty much yeah, it was tolerated before, now its become a major issue.


Goge and alike.
*******
Dont pigeon hole me

Sun does not shine under your bellys.
***********
No, the sun is huge nuclear reaction far away that the earth orbits.

This girl probably born in Britain all of a sudden is singled out, because of her adherence to her religion.
***********
She may have been. And as I said, she's not being singled out, shes being singled in. She's being forced to act like everyone else at the school does, SAHE is damnading special treatment, she is not being treated differently.

I was wondering if you have any idea, whats the difference between culture and religion?
********
Yes

How much more ignorant can a society be?
********
Show me where theres ignorance here?

Especially when this society has people who think like "taking steps to hide your face is generaly extremely rude and only undertaken by those with criminal intentions." CRIMINAL INTENTION?
**********
Hell yeah.


Well continue chasing your <deleted> tail <deleted>. Because 12 years old cant be NUNS and Cant be criminals either.
***********
Do you live in the UK?
You do know theres 12 year olds who walk around with guns shooting people right?


I SAID IT BEFORE. STOP TOLERATING AND LEARN TO ACCEPT THE DIFFERENCES.
********
If she wants to cover her face in her own time, fine, when shes at school, she should wear the school uniform like everyone else.

We cant all be the same. This is part of recognition not dispersion. We recognize each other, by our dress codes, colour of skin and culture; and dont use those criterias to segregate as you lot do, nor to frown upon. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
*************
I'm not segregating, SHE IS.

SHE is being forced to behave like everyone else in that school.
SHE is demanding special treatment.

She is demanding the rules arent applied to HER because SHE is a muslim.

As I said, she is not being singled out, she's being singled in.

Schools in the UK have uniforms that you have to wear, being a muslim doesnt put you above those rules.
 
  by: GogeVandire   02/21/2007 02:50 PM     
  @flutje  
 
"In the Netherlands we are so getting tired of this you wouldn't believe it.
We have loads of cultures here and the only ones that make daily demands and give us huge amounts of problems (example: Imams stating that homosexuals should be killed and every muslim has the irght to kill them) seem to be muslims."
Muslims are the only ones hating Homosexuals right? Jews, Christians, Neo Nazis and all of the other ones are also muslim?

Or is it, one muslim represents the whole of Islam?

With your kind of attitude, you are probably no different than a Neo Nazi. Because you all hate. I am not trying to call you racist, your rhettoric is screaming at you, the only thing missing is that HOOD. Unless if you dont know, what makes a person racist.

 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 02:58 PM     
  @Cave a door  
 
"Hey SHUT-UP!
Nuns DON'T cover their faces.
They also have a right to wear a habit because they have passed a theology course by living in a convent for several years.(Similar to doing a university course.
Muslim women are only wannabe nuns.
According to Islamic law women are not permitted to preach the Koran only the men are.(That's why I label them as
"Wannabe Nuns")"
I am not going to argue with that. It shows what university or level of education you possess?
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 03:03 PM     
  @Goge  
 
"Whats any culture?
A set of shared moral views, traditions ect.
I'm not going to try and turn 3 millenia of history into a paragraph."

Read above and let me know, which one of these sets are represented.

Is it "shared morals" or "traditions" The school uniform is not an issue, but what she wears on top of the Uniform.

"Show me where theres ignorance here?"
In all and everything you are rambling about. You dont tolerate and neither recognize the differences, the lack of, makes you an ignorant. You are pushing your rights unto others by such statements like "Yes, it does as far as I'm concerned, when I rana pub, if you walked in with an obscured face, I reached for my kosh, asked you to take hat/scarf whatever off, either you did, you left, Or I bashed you." Who the Fak are you, to tell me or even ask me to take off anything.

"Pretty much yeah, it was tolerated before, now its become a major issue."

What do you think of this ^^^ Well patso, guess what? Sit on it and rotate while singing kumbaya, because I am in your face and I will out number you, whether you like it or not, which I know, thats your fear.

Here is the epiphany "Do you live in the UK?
You do know theres 12 year olds who walk around with guns shooting people right?"

And here you are with your smarts and intergrity, giving a 12 years old who wants to be religious a hardtime. Perhaps afraid of that blonde blue eyed 12 years old lad with UZI? What do yout think it makes you? Oh found another word for such, 'COWARD' so there you have it a racist, intolerance coward.

"SHE is being forced to behave like everyone else in that school."

Thank you GOGE case closed. Continue 'FORCING' since you dont want to "I'm not going to try and turn 3 millenia of history into a paragraph."

 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 03:28 PM     
  @kinko  
 
Well, ending declarative statements with question marks doesn't make a case for your higher education.

I fail to believe that any 12 year old really feels that passionate about wearing a religious head-covering. Unless, of course, she's being pushed by her parents to make a stink about it. Let me just say this, as a society we've tolerated (and you will never actually get people to 'accept' it, so just take what you get) quite a bit from this ridiculous "Islamic invasion". I have due respect for Islam and its past and future, but when you move to a largely western society, you can't just walk in and expect them to change THEIR conventions to YOUR standards. We have been living our way for thousands of years, and so have muslims. The ones who come in demanding concessions should live in a country that already makes them! If you have no problem enjoying the myriad economic, political, and sociological benefits of our societies, wearing a traditional conservative head covering vice a full face-veil should be a small sacrifice to make considering you could be eating pounded goat meat and dying of tuberculosis.

On a less theological note, Jews get their head covering because it's unobtrusive and provides no barrier to every-day activity. In our society, we don't degrade women to the point of face-covering, which is chiefly worn as women are not to look men in the eyes in Muslim society, and so they cannot be looked upon as not to 'tempt' men to sin. This veil is just a token that this girl either doesn't know the purpose of, or she needs to come to terms with the fact that in the WEST, we treat women with due RESPECT.

When I speak to someone, especially when teaching, eye contact shows your listening. I know when I was in school if I could've had a veil, I would've been snoozing behind it. If when this girl is done with school she wants to degrade her life to worthlessness and wallow in self-loathing, fine. But in school, she can wear a hijab or kufi like the orthodox christian kids are permitted to.
 
  by: japh   02/21/2007 03:29 PM     
  @flutje  
 
Perhaps this should be something that you should get tired of http://shortnews.com/...
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 03:31 PM     
  @kinko2, hardliners  
 
Also, let me pose you this question. What if I were to move to hardline Islamic coutnry and demand my wife be able to vote or wear a short skirt in the summer? I'd love to see how 'tolerant' or 'accepting' they are there. Please, what a load of crap. I'd be stoned to death along with my wife for being a kuffir. Also, it's part of my religion that I be permitted to wear a ski mask and carry a golden sceptre, and shout obsceneties at 10 minutes past every hour. If you dare deny me my god-given rights I will bomb your street cafes!
 
  by: japh   02/21/2007 03:34 PM     
  @japh  
 
Unfortunately my writing and grammar are nothing to be proud off, even to myself. But kindly get off my shoulder, you look very tall.

"I fail to believe that any 12 year old really feels that passionate about wearing a religious head-covering. Unless, of course, she's being pushed by her parents to make a stink about it." Is this a statement or fact Yoda???
(I am asking this time, I hope I used it correctly.)
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 03:36 PM     
  @japh  
 
As a point of accuracy, it should be noted that the niqab allows an opening for the eyes, so eye contact isn't really a part of the discussion.

Also, this:

"But in school, she can wear a hijab or kufi like the orthodox christian kids are permitted to."

Um, we don't call our head coverings by Arabic names.

I'd also like to point out that neither Muslim nor British culture is "thousands of years old". Islam was founded in the 7th century, and Angles and Saxons first came to the British Isles in the mid-5th century. As we are not quite yet at the years 2600 or 2500, neither culture is "thousands" of years old.
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/21/2007 03:45 PM     
  Oh well  
 
Because no woman in her right mind (let alone a 12 y/o girl) would fight for the right to be persecuted. That's the regressive crap that you can feel free to leave behind in your country.

But I doubt you're a muslim, or even middle-eastern, just a bleeding heart trying to make a case. If you were true in the faith of Islam you would know what I am saying is right. Do you speak the language of your faith? Have you made Hajj? Haltet kalaam Arabia?

In America (and the UK I'm sure) we are largely immigrants who came here to escape the bad things of our homes, and bring forth the good! Why celebrate persecution? Islam has many GOOD things to teach, and mid-east culture has many things too! But it's because of news like this that people only see the BAD THINGS. Instead of normal folks sitting in cafes with mint tea and enjoying things like shisha and hummus, they laugh at Arabia now because of this contempt. It is truly a shame. I hope some day we can work it out, but I fear I will be long gone before then. :/
 
  by: japh   02/21/2007 03:45 PM     
  @japh2  
 
"Also, let me pose you this question. What if I were to move to hardline Islamic coutnry and demand my wife be able to vote or wear a short skirt in the summer? I'd love to see how 'tolerant' or 'accepting' they are there. Please, what a load of crap."

You'd be surprised to know how tolerant they are to none muslims. One proof is right here on SN and very recent. This is what it said. <""Accurate details are required for the enforcement officers to act, otherwise they could be pouncing on married couples," he added. A Christian American couple was raided last year there, thinking they were unmarried Muslims, causing an outcry.>"
http://shortnews.com/...
It means that once they found out they were Christians, the charges were dropped. We know and understand how Christians like their women to dress as. Just like you mentioned "demand my wife be able to vote or wear a short skirt in the summer?" Hey thats your wife dude and you can go naked along side her. I just like to watch her thats all. (my bad)
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 03:47 PM     
  @nova  
 
A hijab looks a lot like the bonnets the christian orthodox children would wear in my school, it was merely a point of comparison. Not being able to see someone face-to-face was the point I was trying to make. The culture of Levant is in fact thousands of years old... largely considered a birthplace of civilization and not much has changed since ancient times.

Christendom as a cultural bastion is thousands of years old... My purpose is trying to convince, In the scope of a shortnews comment I am not including 50 page dissertations on the implications of culture clashes in modern society. If you like, I can send you some. I apologize for any English errors in advance... Much respect though, as I usually agree with the things you say.
 
  by: japh   02/21/2007 03:52 PM     
  yeah..  
 
A twelve year olds 'Deeply held beliefs'...

I also bet the twelve year old said 'Mummy, let's sue the school.'

Terrible.

 
  by: Dook   02/21/2007 03:52 PM     
  @japh  
 
No problem.

I believe a discussion on this subject is necessary, as the world is getting smaller and borders are slowly evaporating. Each society will have to come to terms with this. In Russia there is a great deal of misunderstanding between different religions and cultures, some of whom have lived side by side for centuries.

Is multiculturalism a failure? Is nationalism dying? Only time will tell. Fortunately, we can discuss our opinions openly in this forum and hopefully listen and learn from each other.
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/21/2007 03:56 PM     
  @japh3  
 
Stick to english. "Haltet kalaam Arabia?" WTF.

"Because no woman in her right mind (let alone a 12 y/o girl) would fight for the right to be persecuted."
Honestly I did not understand this part, or cant believe I read that. Whatever, can you pls explain?
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 04:08 PM     
  @nova  
 
Yes it's a strange time and a difficult thing for me to make an opinion on. I know I have no problem with it, but we can only stretch so far before its just intrusive. Respect for culture is a mutual thing, and people need to realize that.
It's like the hindus and muslims in India, who lived peacefully for centuries, split in two with Pakistan because of this Islamic pseudo-nationalism. Other faiths aren't pushing them away, it seems like they're drawing away on their own! It seems Islam proper is not satsified if it is not fighting against some unseen power.
First, they need to tolerate their OWN sects, then, they need to tolerate us, then they will be ready. Until then, I wish them all luck. Good day friend.
 
  by: japh   02/21/2007 04:10 PM     
  @kinko  
 
I'm finished with you by the way. Not that you read anything.
English is my fourth language behind persian french japanese so I apologize if it is not to your liking. Romanizing arabic is never easy and I don't do it often. You get what I said, though. Back to work I go, good day.
 
  by: japh   02/21/2007 04:18 PM     
  @Kinko  
 
"Muslims are the only ones hating Homosexuals right? Jews, Christians, Neo Nazis and all of the other ones are also muslim?"

I never said that muslims are the only ones that hate homosexuals. You should learn to read before you post.

First of all I only gave this one example there are many others including citing violence against the dutch in general for not being muslims.

Anyway, there are a number of imams that call for violence against homosexuals in our country. This is not tollerated here!

There are, as far as is known, no priests or rabby's that do the same thing in my country.

I also never said that one muslim represents the whole muslim community I did however said that the it was a minority that conform to our dutch culture.
Still when there is something not going the way of the muslim majority they screem their heads of but when it comes to the kinds of things some imams talk about noone is heard.
That annoyes the hell out of the majority of the dutch, not just me.

I agree that out tolerance is at an all time low and the sad thing is that those communities with which we never had any problems (chinese, vietnamese, indonesian and so on) are also taking some of the heat.

"With your kind of attitude, you are probably no different than a Neo Nazi. Because you all hate."

I do not hate I am just getting somehwat tired by the constant nagging and demanding which none of the other cultures ever did.

"Perhaps this should be something that you should get tired of http://shortnews.com/...

This use of this ugly and nasty thing only goes for mentally ill criminals who are in some of our high security risk prisons and only need to wear one of these things when they are allowed out for a short time as part of their treatment.
Some of them escaped and murdered and raped again. This has been a huge problem and we all want to be save.

 
  by: Flutje   02/21/2007 04:21 PM     
  @Kinko  
 
"Whats any culture?
A set of shared moral views, traditions ect.
I'm not going to try and turn 3 millenia of history into a paragraph."

Read above and let me know, which one of these sets are represented.
*********
I'm not sure what your asking?


Is it "shared morals" or "traditions" The school uniform is not an issue, but what she wears on top of the Uniform.
**********
No, the uniform is the uniform, it doesnt include a full face covering.


"Show me where theres ignorance here?"
In all and everything you are rambling about. You dont tolerate and neither recognize the differences, the lack of, makes you an ignorant. You are pushing your rights unto others by such statements like "Yes, it does as far as I'm concerned, when I rana pub, if you walked in with an obscured face, I reached for my kosh, asked you to take hat/scarf whatever off, either you did, you left, Or I bashed you." Who the Fak are you, to tell me or even ask me to take off anything.
*************
In that instance the manager of the Pub. So yeah, if I set a dress code, you obey it or leave.

"Pretty much yeah, it was tolerated before, now its become a major issue."

What do you think of this ^^^ Well patso, guess what? Sit on it and rotate while singing kumbaya, because I am in your face and I will out number you, whether you like it or not, which I know, thats your fear.
**********
What?

Here is the epiphany "Do you live in the UK?
You do know theres 12 year olds who walk around with guns shooting people right?"

And here you are with your smarts and intergrity, giving a 12 years old who wants to be religious a hardtime.
***********
I'm not giving anyone a hard time.
I'm telling you that being muslim doesnt give you special rights and priveledges.


Perhaps afraid of that blonde blue eyed 12 years old lad with UZI? What do yout think it makes you? Oh found another word for such, 'COWARD' so there you have it a racist, intolerance coward.
**********
English really isnt your first language is it?
What are you trying to say there?



"SHE is being forced to behave like everyone else in that school."

Thank you GOGE case closed. Continue 'FORCING' since you dont want to "I'm not going to try and turn 3 millenia of history into a paragraph."
***********
Are you a moron? Seriously?


Ok, just answr this one question.
Should she get special rights, exemptions and priveledges becuase she is a muslim?
Or should she follow the same rules as everyone else in the country.


As a side note.
@Volk
Despite the truthiness ideas that Britain is a nation of immigrants, 98% of white people in the UK are descended primarily from people who crossed the land bridge to europe, that ceased to exist some 3000 years ago.
 
  by: GogeVandire   02/21/2007 04:25 PM     
  @Goge  
 
"Are you a moron? Seriously?"

I am honestly not surprised at all with this answer. You like it black and white, what you read, has to be literaly for you, otherwise examples and idioms throw you off course.
Would you like me to draw you a picture?
 
  by: kinko     02/21/2007 05:02 PM     
  @Goge  
 
"Despite the truthiness ideas that Britain is a nation of immigrants, 98% of white people in the UK are descended primarily from people who crossed the land bridge to europe, that ceased to exist some 3000 years ago."

Yes, all of whom were descended from primates out of Africa. That's very nice.

I was talking about the people refered to as Anglo-Saxons, who arrived in Britain in the 5th century. That is to say, the people known as the British, became British upon arrival in the British Isles, in the 5th century. Before arriving in Britain, they were not British. Hence, Anglo-Saxon British culture dates back to the 5th century.

Sheesh.
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/21/2007 05:26 PM     
  hmm  
 
These kinds of bans really strike me as solutions seeking a problem. I don't know about others but I don't spend time staring at strangers' faces to begin with and if it's someone I know then I'm going to respect their decision to wear a veil. What exactly is the problem? Is there an implicit assumption that they will cause trouble? Have roving bands of veiled Muslim girls been terrorizing schools in Europe? The reasons they cite in this case 'make communication and learning difficult' sound like pure speculation... how do they know it won't work? Sounds like it worked fine for her sisters.

Let's be honest here, Europe has a pretty crappy record for respecting minorities (as the Jews and Gypsies can tell us). These bans seem to be mostly supported by rhetoric. Is this not just another case of European xenophobia?
 
  by: bane39   02/21/2007 05:35 PM     
  @kinko  
 
Should she (or anyone else) get special rights because she is muslim?
 
  by: jendres     02/21/2007 06:23 PM     
  all i see here is that  
 
u guys that are arrugin are the ones that are crying over bout it more now then the girl probally was if u dont like the rules then get homed school if u like the rules sdfu and learn... u guys should stop faking crying bout this pointless convo wat do u really hope to gain? make the other one say ur right im wrong?
 
  by: maryjane <5   02/21/2007 09:02 PM     
  yeah, it's obviously about communication  
 
Rejoice! The "War on Terror" has successfully defeated another foe. Times have changed. The family has the choice to abandon their beliefs or teach the girl at home. Being different is now against the law.
 
  by: ManilaRyce     02/21/2007 10:57 PM     
  Beliefs  
 
Beliefs can be very generic and broad.

Some people used to believe (and possibly still do) that Catholics should be killed. Should we accept these beliefs?

Some people believe that women's genitalia should be mutilated. Should we accept these beliefs?

Some people believe that young girls should be completely covered from head to toe and not be allowed to interact with society. Should we accept these beliefs?

Some people believe that young children should be brainwashed into believing everything their parents tell them. Should we accept these beliefs?

Some people believe that the world should be brought to an end so that a supernatural being will come and save them. Should we accept these beliefs?
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 12:45 AM     
  @jendres  
 
Are you really putting genital mutilation on par with a veil?

I'm going to second what bane39 said, more or less:

Who is this girl hurting with this veil? All the fears brought up about are built on pure conjecture. Is anyone pointing to any solid evidence that veils hurt the school, other students, the learning experience? No, because there is none. It's just typical xenophobia - groundless fear of that which is different.

A veil. Oooh! Scary!
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/22/2007 12:55 AM     
  @jendres  
 
it's not about accepting anyone's beliefs. it's about letting them have their silly beliefs without imposing your own. i fail to see how the school or society in general loses by allowing people to dress the way they want. if some clothes are unacceptable because they represent a scary idea, we might as well have a dress code for the entire country.
 
  by: ManilaRyce     02/22/2007 01:03 AM     
  @volkova  
 
Did I? I listed a number of beliefs people have or have had after Manila said "The family has the choice to abandon their beliefs or teach the girl at home." I pointed out that sometimes personal beliefs are not justified or acceptable. However, it is interesting that genital mutilation has been argued as being a cultural belief and so should be tolerated.

I see neither of you said anything about the brainwashing of children. I find that most abhorrent, but unfortunately society tolerates it.

Chewing gum in my school was banned as well. Where is one single shred of evidence that chewing gum hurt the school, other students, the learning experience? I could rattle of a bunch of other little things which were banned at school. Not having your shirt tucked in, for example, was a breech of the school uniform. I'm pretty sure covering your face should be included. Please don't resort to religion is special argument. Ignoring the fact this isn't a religious requirement, religion shouldn't get special treatment in a secular society.

Facelss, mask, disguise, conceal, cloak, secrecy. This is the connotations of a "veil". And you wonder why it is frowned upon?
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 04:21 AM     
  breach not breech  
 
I always do that!
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 04:27 AM     
  @Manila  
 
So is it or isn't it about accepting other people's beliefs? You contradict yourself in two sentences.

It is not about a scary idea, that is just what you (and others) present it as. It is about interacting with people in society in an appropriate manner. Covering your face implies you have something to hide, whether it is with a mask, a stocking, or a "veil".
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 04:36 AM     
  Why!?  
 
Why are they making a big deal about it now!? They have obviously allowed it in the past, so why the sudden change in rules. And if someone says its because of the post 9/11 garbage they will get a slap : P
 
  by: zmethod     02/22/2007 05:17 AM     
  @jendres  
 
"So is it or isn't it about accepting other people's beliefs? You contradict yourself in two sentences."

no, your understanding of what i said is off. it is not about accepting someone's beliefs as your own or to the point where they infringe on another person's life. it is about accepting the fact that they are different and have the choice to be different.

"It is not about a scary idea, that is just what you (and others) present it as."

c'mon, you can't be serious. if islam were not demonized, if 9/11 had never happened, if the stereotype of oppressed muslim women didn't exist, you're telling me there would still be a ban on veils? this crackdown on muslim dress is purely coincidental?

"Covering your face implies you have something to hide, whether it is with a mask, a stocking, or a 'veil'."

maybe to someone who's small-minded and doesn't realize it is a cultural or religious custom. i think people are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between a bank robber and a woman wearing a full-face veil and why each is wearing that particular item of clothing. why are we conforming to the lowest common denominator who automatically think someone with a veil has "something to hide"? i've never thought that of anyone in such attire, and i fell sorry for you if you have.
 
  by: ManilaRyce     02/22/2007 05:38 AM     
  typo  
 
feel, not fell.
 
  by: ManilaRyce     02/22/2007 05:41 AM     
  in her case...  
 
i'm against the ruling because her sisters didn't have any resistance when they did it. So obviously it's not a "learning" thing.


But generally...i'm against the veil stuff. It's like to me, if you allow one person to do it, you gotta allow everyone else or look like you're discriminating.

Looks like they're discriminating.
 
  by: hotrock11     02/22/2007 06:03 AM     
  @jendres  
 
"I see neither of you said anything about the brainwashing of children. I find that most abhorrent, but unfortunately society tolerates it."

So... homogenizing the students in schools is opening young minds?

"Facelss, mask, disguise, conceal, cloak, secrecy. This is the connotations of a "veil". And you wonder why it is frowned upon?"

Correction, this is YOUR connotations for a 'veil'. It's very Hollywood. I take it you find people in white more approachable? I'm going to suggest to you that there can in fact be other connotations. Allowing this girl to wear her 'veil' might even change what the other students think about the 'veil'.

I know you said not to say it but the issue is different when cultural and religious practices are involved. A secular society doesn't mean a homogeneous society. Personally, I believe in tolerance as a societal value. What does banning 'veils' in schools teach the students? That Muslim women are deviants? It could effectively cause a segregation of Muslim students. Is that positive?
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 06:04 AM     
  @bane  
 
you provide nothing new to the argument. In fact you bring up an argument, which I preemptively dismissed.

And for once, will everyone stop refering to the full body covering as a religious requirement. I refer you to the well balanced reporting of the BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

I will turn your question around. "What does allowing 'veils' in schools teach the students?" That a woman should remain hidden?

No brainwashing = "Homogeneous". hahahaha... that was funny. I would say no brainwashing = true individual choice.
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 06:49 AM     
  religion  
 
what good has come from religion?? ... seriously
 
  by: robface84   02/22/2007 06:51 AM     
  @jendres  
 
banning something = individual choice?

nice
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 06:56 AM     
  @jendres  
 
You do realize that banning veils from schools doesn't magically change their beliefs right?

Whatever you think of their beliefs, we do have religious freedom. Arguments on that point are really outside the scope of this discussion.
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 07:02 AM     
  @bane  
 
nice twist of words. So I take it that you support brainwashing?

Banning torture reduces my choices!!!! WAAAAAA!!!
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 07:07 AM     
  @jendres  
 
Last two pts, I promise.

You can't just preemptively dismiss an argument without sound basis. You said religion shouldn't play into it. This was a value statement on your part. It is not an a prior assumption for our discussion. My point was that my values say otherwise, that it does change things when religion or cultural practices are involved.

As for it teaching women should be hidden... it isn't as if I'm advocating the schools require all girls to wear veils. What allowing the veils in schools does teach is that Muslim women in veils are normal people and other people can have different practices.
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 07:13 AM     
  @bane  
 
Of course it doesn't change their beliefs, another pointless non sequitor. It doesn't stop them going about their private lives practicing their religion at all. Will you stop with the religious argument?
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 07:14 AM     
  @jendres  
 
Try to stay away from the ad hominem attacks. They're rather detrimental to the legit arguments you make.
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 07:15 AM     
  @jendres  
 
you're throwing the term "brainwashing" around rather recklessly, as if anyone deciding to wear a veil is brainwashed. that's a rather ignorant point of view, and had you ever conversed with a wide selection of veil-wearing women you'd know the stereotype to be false. one might wonder how much brainwashing you've undergone to adopt such a conclusion.
 
  by: ManilaRyce     02/22/2007 07:16 AM     
  ok.  
 
Lets change it to say, a Westbro baptist church member who would shout out how much they hate gay people and that everyone that dies are gay lovers or whatever crap they spout.

Should we allow them to do this in a school? They wouldn't even be allowed to get away with it in public in UK and Australia. But hey it is religion! And everything religious is special and gets special rights. Why? It is the weakest argument around. You have no basis except, "just because".

Religious beliefs don't give you a free pass to do whatever the hell you want. I've already shown how beliefs vary and not everything should be tolerated.

From what you are saying, you support genital mutilation and stoning people to death since they are "cultural" and "religious" beliefs.

It sounds to me like you are taking liberalism a little to extreme.
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 07:23 AM     
  ad hominem?  
 
what ad hominem?
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 07:24 AM     
  @Manila  
 
Did I say that a decision to wear a veil is brainwashing?

I think you do protest too much!
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 07:26 AM     
  @jendres  
 
If you go back and read my original comment you will see that I am ready to hear arguments on why banning the veil is justified. However, I haven't heard anything convincing. The examples you cited are human rights violations. I'm perfectly open to restricting certain freedoms when they lead to clear harm.
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 07:28 AM     
  define "clear harm"  
 
that is ambiguous. And you obviously didn't read the source did you? It shows the legal reasoning behind the decision.

Where is the ad hominem?
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 07:31 AM     
  it is subjective  
 
Yes, it is subjective. I did read the source, you will see that I address some of the pts directly in my original post. The core of my problem the their arguments is that they are very speculative. I don't find them particularly substantial.
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 07:39 AM     
  @jendres  
 
Let's try to bring this back to civil. I played my part in making this discussion antagonistic but it's detrimental to the discussion. I would appreciate it if you try to tone it down a bit as well.
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2007 07:43 AM     
  @jendres  
 
Wear you beaten by a woman in a veil as a child or something?

It's really very simple:

The school has not been able to cite a single concrete reason why this harmless religious dress is banned all of the sudden, they've only been able to speculate what *might* happen - which apparently didn't happen with her older sisters.

In short, it's bullshit. So much for the great western concept of democratic respect for other cultural ways that pose no threat to others. What a wonderful lesson being taught these children. How much more threatening that a simple piece of cloth worn about the face.

BEWARE OF THE VEILS!
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/22/2007 07:43 AM     
  @Volkova  
 
LOL! Well said
 
  by: zmethod     02/22/2007 08:24 AM     
  How are you not getting this?  
 
Schools in the UK have a set unfiform you have to wear.
A veil is not part of this uniform.

Hence, she can not wear a veil to school.

Your religion does not excuse you from certain laws.

As I've said repeatedly, she is not being singled out, she's being made to follow the same rules as everybody else.

If you think thats wrong, and muslims should live by different laws to everyone else, then I would politely suggest the UK is not where you should choose to reside.
 
  by: Gogevandire   02/22/2007 09:31 AM     
  @Goge  
 
Many have pointed out to you, it is not the veil nor uniform that is in actual question, but rather CONS & PROS of addorning such.

This is what I re-read again and again.

[quote]"All she wants is to be able to practise her deeply held beliefs whilst getting on with her daily life." Volkova
SAID IT BEFORE. STOP TOLERATING AND LEARN TO ACCEPT THE DIFFERENCES. We cant all be the same. This is part of recognition not dispersion. We recognize each other, by our dress codes, colour of skin and culture; and dont use those criterias to segregate as you lot do, nor to frown upon. KINKO
<Let's be honest here, Europe has a pretty crappy record for respecting minorities (as the Jews and Gypsies can tell us). These bans seem to be mostly supported by rhetoric. Is this not just another case of European xenophobia?> Bane
<The family has the choice to abandon their beliefs or teach the girl at home. Being different is now against the law.
Manila>
<Who is this girl hurting with this veil? All the fears brought up about are built on pure conjecture. Is anyone pointing to any solid evidence that veils hurt the school,> Volkova
<As for it teaching women should be hidden... it isn't as if I'm advocating the schools require all girls to wear veils. What allowing the veils in schools does teach is that Muslim women in veils are normal people and other people can have different practices.>
Bane
<The school has not been able to cite a single concrete reason why this harmless religious dress is banned all of the sudden, they've only been able to speculate what *might* happen - which apparently didn't happen with her older sisters.>
In short, it's bullshit. So much for the great western concept of democratic respect for other cultural ways that pose no threat to others. What a wonderful lesson being taught these children. How much more threatening that a simple piece of cloth worn about the face.> Volkova[/quote]

Instead going in circles, I would just like to say something from my ow honest opinion.

I am muslim and there are times when I have held my own head in dismay of what muslims have done in the name of their religion.

I do not condone violence of any sort. I do not condome, trampling of human rights. I also, dont condone selective persecution, as is in this case.

But when you write something like
"Schools in the UK have a set unfiform you have to wear.
A veil is not part of this uniform.
Hence, she can not wear a veil to school.
Your religion does not excuse you from certain laws." I think what you are becoming is exactly what we are all afraid of. Which is the sentiment of hating, based on colour, culture, ethnicity etc etc. Simply put xenophobic.

You may think your argument is valid; but I am wondering, whats the validity of coercion or impossing or compeling someone to abandon their belief, only to follow the exact opposite.
(Here Goge a picture) The exact opposite of covering is not to cover. Kapish?

According to you, a uniform is uniform is uniform and it should be worn with dignity of institution. I honestly agree with that sentiment 100%.

But please dont ask the pupil not to wear glasses, or, a prosthesis, just because it in inagreeable to your occular delight, or she/he looks deranged. Where is the tolerance my friend.

My daughter was in a soccer team, amongst her team mates, was another muslim girl who wore hijab, long track pants and a T-shirt on top of her jersey. In a swealtering summer heat, I a muslim felt sorry for her. To an extent I went to talk to her parents, if they could allow her to be clad less clantily. her fathers response was, I have asked her and told her many times, even tried to force her, but she refused. In the meantime, her mother was sitting next to him without a hijjab!! He not knowing if I was a muslim said " Sometimes I dont wont to come and watch her here, because all and everyone, who looks at her dressed like that in this weather of 32ºC, they assume, its my forcing her to veil as the reason" I honestly realized right there, I have done injustice to this gentleman and I appologized.

This girl was my daughters team top scorer and suprisingly, her position was #5 Center half.
http://img22.imagevenue.com/...
http://img144.imagevenue.com/...
http://img42.imagevenue.com/...

How is it that this girl, because of her hijjab and religion, should not e allowed to be in the team! If one says, it pulls down the team from winning or she will die of dehydration etc etc, is just speculative. but if one says it is because she is not in accordance to uniform of the team, thats when. We or I say 'Kammman' give me a break she was the top scorer of that season and the winning goal came from her. She was big in size, she could wack that ball hard; and unfortunately she is the only player during the finals played the who
 
  by: kinko     02/22/2007 06:19 PM     
  continued  
 
the whole 60 minutes. click on those pics and tell me whats wrong with her?

Goge, Polands main crop is Potatoes etc, but can you imagine stoping Indians or Chinese from eating rice?
 
  by: kinko     02/22/2007 06:26 PM     
  @Kinko  
 
There are REAL reasons to wear corrective spectacles.

Being a muslim is a choice.

wearing glasses is not.

However, were a student to go in wearing novelty glasses, they would no doubt be required to remove them.

The question is once more, do the same rules apply to muslims and none muslims?

 
  by: Gogevandire   02/22/2007 06:33 PM     
  I'm getting quite tired  
 
Of the flaming liberals going around upsetting opinion of decent people asking for respect to be paid to the customs of their countries.

This isn't a mere failure to assimilate, the Muslims, by in large, in every poll in every country, intend to live by Sharia Law above and in place of the laws of their own countries.

They're not going to adopt European mores, or Western ones.

They intend for us to assimilate to theirs, that's the issue here.

That's the issue the whole World is facing.

<deleted by admin>

You wouldn't last a second in a Muslim country without being beset for your mere appearance.

You don't know from intolerance, you're emptyheaded fools.

If you want to see the face of intolerance, look at it. If it isn't veiled from you.

You'll see repression, you'll see every bit of the progress Europe has made at cost of much loss of life and treasure, represented as untouched, from the 12th Century. You'll see it absent from them.

Are they learning? They hate Westerners. They abhor our freedom. They loathe our liberality.

That's the truth of it.

It took me a long time to see it. I've seen it now though. I've seen enough to understand what's going on here.

This war is a just one.

Nevermind it hasn't gone well, and gone places we haven't expected, or perhaps some of the information wasn't quite right, initially... we're there now, and what is being done is what is needed to be done.

Iraq needed this chance to become more than it was. Cynicism aside, if they lift themselves out of this, they'll have a beautiful country there.

The World can't afford to be cynical about Iraq, if that country fails catastrophically, the region will turn for the worse, and that's saying something.

We have to stay there to get the job done. This happens to be beneficial, it's just that growth is often accompanied by pain.

We have to stay the course, and not let our countries be taken over by repressed zealots. They don't offer anything new.

This is the old, old story. The story that people take in measured amounts and are outright rejecting from their preachers and priests. So why accept it from Imams who just moved into town?

You accept that and you've just handed your country on a silver platter to people from the 12th century whose allegiances are wholly foreign.
 
  by: Hollywood   02/22/2007 06:57 PM     
  Hrm...  
 
In my religion, giving someone the finger is a sign of love and friendship.
 
  by: Svengali   02/22/2007 08:05 PM     
  @Hollywood  
 
<deleted by admin>
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/22/2007 08:25 PM     
  @Volka  
 
<deleted by admin>
 
  by: Hollywood   02/22/2007 08:52 PM     
  @Hollywood  
 
<deleted by admin>
 
  by: Volkova_Nova     02/22/2007 09:01 PM     
  @hollywood  
 
please go away, you aren't advancing the argument at all. I'm quite liberal and I support the school.

I think believe that with your individual rights also have a responsibility to society.

This girl has every right to wear whatever the veil if she wants to, just as long as it is in her own private life. When she enters the school, she is required to obey school rules. This requirement is in exchange for a free education. If she disagrees with this, she has other options; home schooling or a religious school. You see, the girl and her parents have a choice.
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 11:25 PM     
  @Kinko  
 
those photos aren't of a girl in a veil <deleted by admin>
Why even bring this up? So the girl chooses to wear a hijab while playing soccer? so what?
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 11:30 PM     
  @volkova  
 
"Wear you beaten by a woman in a veil as a child or something?"
Yeah that must be it. Were you suckled at the teat of a veiled woman as a child or something? (And you were the one talking about Hollywood being childish?)

"It's really very simple:"
Yes it is, but apparently you can't get your head around it.

"The school has not been able to cite a single concrete reason why this harmless religious dress is banned all of the sudden, they've only been able to speculate what *might* happen - which apparently didn't happen with her older sisters."
A learned judge ruled otherwise. School principals change, teachers change, rules change. I've been asked to take off my motorcycle helmet when I entered a service station to pay for fuel. I had previously paid while still wearing it, because it is a pain to put on and take off. So are they discriminating against bike riders? Or are they worried about something without concrete evidence?

"In short, it's bullshit." so you keep saying, but hey that's the breaks.
"So much for the great western concept of democratic respect for other cultural ways that pose no threat to others. " What? Democracy has nothing to do with this. An action doesn't have to be threating to be banned.

"What a wonderful lesson being taught these children." Yes it is. The lesson is that people should engage sociably with equal respect, regardless of sex.

"How much more threatening that a simple piece of cloth worn about the face."
A piece of cloth worn about the face is a mask. I couldn't get into to work wearing a mask, let alone a bank, a shop, a school, etc.

http://digg.com/...

These guys had warned the people in the shop btw, and this was still their natural reaction.
 
  by: jendres     02/22/2007 11:46 PM     
  Why the need to stand out.  
 

Please, a nun did not cover her whole face and did not have to work, or participate I regular school.
Defending the use of the veil is not giving up a right. If she wants to attend school she should be treated like every one else.

We all have given up rights so why not her, or them.
If she ever wants to work in the work place she will need to give up the full veil or stay the heck home.
Why not go back to where they came from and all the girls sit around in their veils and wait or their man to come beat them. You think I want one driving a car with one of these things on. H--- no.
It is ok for me to give up my wants but Heaven forbid one of them have to melt into our society, which I might say is not my society any more anyway. It belongs to the sex, drugs and rock and roll bunch. Anything goes, but guess what, my faith, not my religion, keeps be form participating in the secular crap.
True religion is to keep oneself unspotted from the world, not to be in everyone’s face with it.
 
  by: concerned   02/24/2007 07:37 PM     
  NOT BACKING UP ANYMORE.  
 

Please, a nun did not cover her whole face and did not have to work, or participate I regular school.
Defending the use of the veil is not giving up a right. If she wants to attend school she should be treated like every one else.

We all have given up rights so why not her, or them.
If she ever wants to work in the work place she will need to give up the full veil or stay the heck home.
Why not go back to where they came from and all the girls sit around in their veils and wait or their man to come beat them. You think I want one driving a car with one of these things on. H--- no.
It is ok for me to give up my wants but Heaven forbid one of them have to melt into our society, which I might say is not my society any more anyway. It belongs to the sex, drugs and rock and roll bunch. Anything goes, but guess what, my faith, not my religion, keeps be form participating in the secular crap.
True religion is to keep oneself unspotted from the world, not to be in everyone’s face with it.
 
  by: concerned   02/24/2007 07:57 PM     
  Enough!  
 
No more personal insults please. Cleaning this rubbish out of a thread this big is no fun. I'm not sure I've got it all yet. Either debate the issue or leave it alone. Hollywood, this particularly means you. After that rather vulgar reference you're on particularly thin ice.
 
  by: ixuzus     02/28/2007 04:08 PM     
  I think  
 
everyone has gone home by now anyway.
 
  by: Gogevandire   02/28/2007 04:13 PM     
 
 
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