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04/01/2007 04:01 PM ID: 61451 Permalink   

America's Most Hated Family


The Phelps have described themselves as America's most hated family. They picket the funerals of US soldiers killed in Iraq in what they say is God’s revenge for allowing homosexuality in the USA.[SN Reported]

The family carry out the pickets in the name of the Westboro Baptist Church, which has 71 members and is based in Topeka, Kansas, with a congregation made up of mostly extended family members.

The Phelps originally began their protests 15 years ago at places where gay people congregated, and moved on to Gay Pride parades and marches, and AIDS victims funerals - and have now turned their protests on US soldiers and mourning family members.

    WebReporter: Hugo Chavez Show Calling Card      
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
  not really news  
Not really news but I'm sure most people would like to have their say on this one .
  by: Hugo Chavez     04/01/2007 04:05 PM     
I like how the source picture has a sign on it saying "America is DOOMED", with the French flag in the background..

*goes scheming*
  by: gimboid   04/01/2007 04:14 PM     
Well, a sideways French flag.. (sorry Frenchies!)
  by: gimboid   04/01/2007 04:15 PM     
As someone who knows the Bible quite well I can fairly safely say that their stance has no Biblical basis. I don't know where they got this whacky idea from but God would seem to have a strong case for defamation. This group is a particularly anti-social cult. I would really like to have a close look at their family tree. I'm not saying it is the case here but a relatively closed gene pool will do funny things to people.
  by: ixuzus     04/01/2007 04:27 PM     
Well the Bible does say that we should stone homosexuals to death, and we don't do that. But then we also don't stone people who work on the Sabbath either. I guess people just don't like to follow the rules.
  by: ZCT     04/01/2007 04:34 PM     
I don't really hate much, but I hate these people. I actually saw a couple of them on Tyra Banks' talk show, (read: why does she have a talk show?) they are seriously brainwashed, probably from birth, to spew their bullshit. If some of them and I ended up at the same funeral, it's a sure thing that I'd end up in jail.
  by: erasedgod   04/01/2007 05:14 PM     
Please quote the scripture where it says to stone all homosexuals.
I'm not saying this purely out of sarcasm, I'd also like to see it.

If it's there, I'd be amazed, but more than likely there is nothing but the churches translation of what could be construed that way. If the Bible said, "Kill all Homosexuals" they would quote it every day on CNN and use it against Christianity for intolerance.

But I've been wrong before, so if you could post it and what list the book of the Bible, I'd be appreciative.
  by: seniorgato     04/01/2007 06:32 PM     
  When Fred sh*ts the bed  
I have ever intention of attending the funeral…and celebrating. Ding dong, that a**hole’s gone!
  by: Valkyrie123     04/01/2007 06:58 PM     
  The bible says  
That a man shall not lie with another man. It is a sin. I don't believe it says directly stone anyone, but that was a common thing to do, especially in the times of the old testament to sinners.

The right of judgment is also given to people who are enforcing the will of the bible. So basically in their reality they are correct.

The best way to cure this is to simply have the soldiers have funerals on Sunday. If the 'Christians' show up protesting than you and I can walk out there with our own signs telling them they are going to hell for protesting on Sabbath.

Honestly if it were my brother's funeral and they showed up I would set in the bushes a few hundred feet away with a sling shot and hurl a few rocks until they left or were really confused. People under estimate the power of sling shots...
  by: kuhl   04/01/2007 07:24 PM     
  If my brother had died  
in Iraq and they pulled that shit I can guarantee you that they would be taken out of the gene pool rather quickly
  by: ToofDogger     04/01/2007 08:53 PM     
  Forget stones  
A shotgun works much better, and I could claim temporary sanity as a defence
  by: FTFFTW   04/01/2007 08:55 PM     
I believe I was wrong about stoning homosexuals. The Bible merely asks that they be put to death, it does not specify how you should kill them. As for the Sabbath workers, they should be stoned:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And now for those work work on the Holy day of Sunday (or Saturday if you think that way):

Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:15
Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Numbers 15:32-36
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
  by: ZCT     04/01/2007 09:19 PM     
It is interesting how emphatic the Bible is about killing people who work on Sunday. Despite the rantings of the crazy fundamentalists against gay people, the Bible seems to have more to say about killing those evil workers than killing gay people.

So pick up some stones and head down to Wal-Mart today. There are plenty of evil employees just asking to be stoned.
  by: ZCT     04/01/2007 09:22 PM     
  @ seniorgato, Here are the quoted scripture  
First of all:

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is Perfect.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable, They must be put to death.

Deut 17:2-7 Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. Refering to anyone that has another "God" Than the Christian One.

Exodus 35:15 - For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath must be put to Death.

Isaiah 13- Anyone who is captured will be run throguh with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.

And the list goes on & on.

  by: CriticalCone   04/01/2007 09:28 PM     
  @ Zct  
When i Intially started comment u had not made that post yet.
  by: CriticalCone   04/01/2007 09:29 PM     
  Go ahead, create another fable.  
I think we can begin to believe the bullshit of the Old Testament again when frogs fall from the sky, etc.

The Bible is a book of man. Plain and simple.

Also, don't just pick and choose if you want to believe in the Old Testament. Why not also believe in the part that states it's perfectly fine to sell your daughters into slavery, etc.

No one has to stone Phelps, he pulled the trigger himself. Down he goes.
  by: chrysmevalesco   04/01/2007 10:53 PM     
  Elaborate plan  
You'll notice the head guy's wife is a preacher...lets see here...tick off people, one of them assaults...sue sue sue = crapload of money. IDEA! LETS USE GOD! Boy...God gonna be ticked when they show up at his door...
  by: DarkWave     04/02/2007 12:17 AM     
  There's something wrong..  
with people who think soldiers don't usually die in battle, period, let alone that the ones that are dieing now are dieing because of homosexuals.

They obviously haven't read the bible - that's full of god's children dieing in situations where homosexuals have nothing to do with it.

The world is full of crackpots, it infuriates me to the extreme.. if only I had the presence of mind to punch them in the face when I meet them in real life. But alas, I'm too busy remembering to breathe...
  by: ETT   04/02/2007 12:55 AM     
get paid to preach on Sundays.they also get paid to work funerals on Sundays.the bible and its teachings are a mess.funerals weren't meant to be held on Sundays yet many Christians pick that day so that the church group can attend it after church. i know this is true, i work at a funeral home in the bible belt area of the got to see how it is down in the south . a church on every street because preachers get their car and home paid for by the church.not to mention the tax free food at Sams.
  by: kross10c   04/02/2007 01:42 AM     
  Those who wrote the books of the Bible  
Not all of those writers who wrote books that eventually ended up in the bible had any direct union with any omnipotent being or were qualified to speak on behalf of creation. Just as there are now, there were in those times crackpots who had extreme ideals and notions how we all should live our lives. Just because it is in the Bible, don't make it so. That is one of the reasons I have a problem with religions who base their belief systems on this book.
  by: John E Angel     04/02/2007 03:30 AM     
Phelps is old news, but it never fails to fascinate how, whenever some Christian lunatic attention whore gets on the news, people seem to take the tone that, "Yeah, Christianity/The Bible is pretty messed up," but when some *Muslim* lunatic attention whore (such as that Australian imam who said women asked to be raped by not fully covering themselves) gets in the news, these very same people will go out of their way to say, "Hey, you can't judge all Muslims/Islam by this one guy."

My point is, while I consider myself liberal, I find it particularly annoying that many alleged liberals feel we should make a special effort to tolerate one religion, yet ridicule another.

Why don't we give ALL religions the benefit of the doubt that they are ALL with their share of lunatics, despite the wisdom inherent in ALL of them?

I'll probably catch hell for saying that, but I can't take it anymore. The double-standards are too much sometimes.
  by: Volkova_Nova     04/02/2007 03:59 AM     
  Time and Place  
There is a time and place for everything, and showing up at a funeral to protest a cause or to stir up trouble is purely disrespectful.

Funerals are usually rough on family and friends, but to have this insult added is just tragic.

I believe in free speech, but I also know that sometimes there are fists aiming for the mouth that spoke it.

With that said, I would like to invite the Phelps to do their "Free Speech" in southern Oklahoma. There are a lot of people here who would love to give them a good ole country ass whooping.

  by: lateknite   04/02/2007 06:26 AM     
Some good points. I believe in freedom of speech as much as the next person. In fact I believe that America does not have enough free speech. (Go visit Europe and watch TV to see some actual free speech) But all that said what this family is doing is sick, and they need to be shot in the face. There are all kinds of forums to express yourself, all kinds of ways to make your voice heard. What these people are doing is reprehensible, and frankly it is amazing that they have not been killed already. I know if I were burying a loved one, I would be quite unhappy if these bigot assholes showed up to protest something I or my family had no control over.
  by: ZCT     04/02/2007 07:04 AM     
  The sabbath....  
By the way, the sabbath is not sunday, it's saturday. Regardless, many interpret the sabbath as well as a lot of other laws given to the jews (ie stoning homosexuals) as being rescinded after the death of jesus in the new testement. I'm not going to debate that here, but suffice it to say that homosexuality is a sin according to the bible, but it is also no worse a sin than anything else. The phelps are no better, and are really just spreading hate propaganda.
  by: rapscaLLion   04/02/2007 07:27 AM     
  Interpeting the Bible is an interesting thing...  
If you don't read the Bible with a knowledge of the historical and social context it was written in and for, then a lot of it will seem absurd. A similar misunderstanding of it will occur if you don't read pretty much the whole thing, and instead go and pick verses or chapters and interpret them out of context.

But if you account for the fact that the OT has God forming a society through which the 'savior of humanity' will be brought into the world, and by means of laws that are impossible to keep to so that the people for whom the OT was written will recognise the need for that savior, then it's pretty much the logical opition.

So yeah, what the Phelps are doing violates not only the law, but the character which Christ tells us we should aspire to. And the things all of us do every day constitutes a similar violation, making us all guilty, and all hypocrites when we point it out in other people in an unrighteous manner.

This, of course, derives from our concept of morality. The phelps think homosexuality is wrong, according to the bible. Some people on this board think homosexuality is okay. One party is wrong. Which one?

That depends on the nature of morality; subjective or objective?

Either morality is subjective, in which case your opinion on homosexuality matters only as much as you are willing or able to enforce or force your point of view (essentially, nobody cares about yours, or the Phelps' opinions, unless they're fair-minded or you have a gun to their heads - by default this also means 'right' and 'wrong' are just concepts, subjective opinions, so anyone out there who likes rape or murder, go for your life if you can get away with it!)

Or morality is objective, which means homosexuality is either wrong or right, and that moral rules arent just opinions, but standards set in place by something that, according to logic, has to be powerful enough to create such standards and place us a subject to these standards. This would infer that there is a 'god' of sorts, and that if you break one of the moral stanards set in place by this 'god', then it will be somewhat angry in the least, should anger be a characteristic of this 'god'.

So when you agree that murder and rape are wrong without a doubt, you can't logically believe that without the presupposition that there is something that set those rules, and indeed, set a definition of whats 'right' and 'wrong'; ie a 'god' of some sort.

Which somewhat improves the case for the bible, or at the very least, puts it in the realm of possibility of it being the reality of our situation here in life, despite whether or not you like it, or think its fair, or want anything to do with it.

Think about it.
  by: Excelsior   04/02/2007 09:48 AM     
I've heard Biblical apologists make these statements before. In fact it is the standard excuse. The OT is being taken out of context or Jesus changed these laws. Here is an interesting article and a couple of interesting videos on related subjects:
  by: ZCT     04/02/2007 01:48 PM     
  Hot in here?  
So this morning I rushed to work. Walked into work and the first site I opened was for my morning news.
When I entered the site I started to sweat real badly. I actually needed to get a drink of ice water. Come to find out this is why!
I dislike people who push their beliefs on others.
Many years ago, when I was younger.. I think I was 16 a group of bible thumpers came to my front door. With my parents out of town I was shacked up living the school kids dream. I had my 21 year old girl friend with me, actually neighbor’s daughter. So when they came knocking on my door I answered it and opened the door half way. Noticing who they were, they told me I am going to hell if I don’t accept this and do that. I was like really? So I told them I’ll be right back. I then went and got my weekend fling and had her go to the door..
The funny part, she was butt naked. For a bunch of bible thumpers they surely did sit there for a pretty long time with their eyes falling out of their head.
They are all hypocrites
Get over it! I don’t push my beliefs on you, don’t do it to me.

  by: andyvan444   04/02/2007 03:33 PM     
Hasn't anyone tried throwing rocks at these A**hats?
  by: cavador   04/02/2007 04:14 PM     
  They need to be hung...  
I hate homosexuality as much as any other homo hater, but picketing at a soldiers funeral is f**ked up sh*t. Nothing to do with homosexuality really. Just a man who died so men could be homosexual and assholes could protest as his funeral, for the right to protest.
  by: DesertRebel   04/02/2007 05:40 PM     
"I hate homosexuality as much as any other homo hater"

This site never fails to bring em out of the woodwork (or closet ...wooooo)
  by: Hugo Chavez     04/02/2007 05:59 PM     
  The Bible?!  
Who cares what the Bible says about homosexuality?! We're talking about funerals of U.S. soldiers. Besides, we should all follow the teachings of the Greek Gods... after all, they came before Christianity. Or maybe we should follow the book of Mormon, because it came after Christianity.
  by: barryman9001   04/02/2007 06:15 PM     
If by 'interesting' you mean 'hilariously flawed' and 'laughably inaccurate/bad' to the point where I'm pretty certain the maker of those videos is joking, then we are in complete agreance.

Have you actually watched those?

From that site I quote:
"Another easy way to see that Jesus is a jerk is to recognize his bigotry. In Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation:

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Jesus calls this woman a dog because she is not the right nationality. That is both ridiculous, and a clear indication that he is a jerk."

Seriously...this guy is joking. Noone making a serious argument would interpret that passage the way he has.

As a moderately serious rebuttal to a joke of an argument...never mind including the rest of that passage or anything...because if you exclude 15:27-28 it actually makes Jesus sound worse, which is mildly convinient considering the goal of the argument is to make Jesus look bad. Of course, not taking into account the reason Jesus does this (other than just to be a bigot) is also convinient.

As for his videos...No, you do not have to literally drink the blood of Christ to get into heaven. The Bible has metaphors in it. :P
The guy who made those videos missed that notice, and does that whole thing I mentioned previously about selecting a verse and interpreting it in a completely different context to that which is was intended, thus destroying its real meaning and intent. ;)

Another example of that - Someone mentioned slaves up the page somewhere, and slavery is a pretty terrible thing, if you're looking at 'slavery' in terms of colonial America. If you apply that concept of slavery to the Bible, yep, the Bible seems like a pretty terrible thing. Then, if you actually look at what the term 'slavery' means in 700 BCE (and by doing that you would want to go to the Hebrew and know something about the culture of the time), then the perspective changes a bit.

Think of it like this...have you ever got a text message from a friend and been offended or upset or whatever, only to find out later that you interpreted their message incorrectly because of some circumstance or another? Well, the Bible is often like that when your intention is to read it to confirm how big of a joke Chrisitanity/Judaism is and how its the cause behind all wars, cancer and whatever else.

Now why would God say that colonial American styled slavery is all good and well while demanding that homosexual acts be punished with death? Seems like conflicting morals a bit. Well they aren't if you interpret 'slavery' the way it actually was back then, and that was if you owed someone, then they owned you, not too dissimilar to the way banks 'own' people today really.

Sure, it sounds unfair by todays standards, but you need to recall that God created Israel for a purpose, and since God did create everything, He gets the priveledge of making the rules, and if it was kill homosexuals and stone sabbath workers, then thats how it goes.

Of course, if you don't beieve that God created Israel, and are having issues with there being a God at all, well I suppose that could hamper your understanding of the text.

Just remember, whenever you express your hatred/apathy/disbelief for Jesus, you help fulfil the prophecies made in the bible, and that only confirms the bible's truth in the minds of Christians...even if you then proceed to argue that it is an 'obvious' prophecy and doesn't prove anything. ;)
  by: Excelsior   04/02/2007 07:23 PM     
  Is this the same book  
Is this the same book that says a man should be put to death for wearing a cotton/poly blend? Or is it the book that says that it's followers can drink deadly poison and it will not harm them?

I think the Phelps family should prove to us all that they are true christians and drink deadly poison on live tv to show the world that they really are on the right side.
  by: CrisW   04/02/2007 08:04 PM     
  Just a thought...  
If the gods were all powerful, couldn't jesus just divert a suitibly sized asteroid and stone each of the homosexuals himself?

If it was really that important.
  by: CrisW   04/02/2007 08:14 PM     
  These people are sick  
See for yourself...

That's the guy's website.
  by: toiletbrush   04/03/2007 01:44 AM     
  Really nuts  
I meant to add... The site has links to their own pictures of protests. The kids are as nuts as the parents. Some look like they aren't enjoying it, but some are smiling as much as everyone else.

While we're at it let's burn some witches. Break out the scales!
  by: toiletbrush   04/03/2007 01:52 AM     
  Last but not least...  
Here's another link. The schedule of their protests.
  by: toiletbrush   04/03/2007 02:01 AM     
  OT VS NT  
There is a big differance between the old Testament and the New Testament.

The old Testament when you read through it depicts the Isrealite system of things. It contains prophecy concerning the Messiah, the history of Israel and a record of miracles, battles and even holds some of the family tree of many individuals.

One of the things included in the Old Testement are LAWS. Laws for a physical nation of people. They were called the Israelites. Just like I'm technically American, some of this forum are under the Canadian Government, others China, others UK, others Mexico, etc.

Each government has a set of rules and laws as a nation. The Israelites had about a total of 650 actual laws that covered every facet of their lives. US as about 600,000 laws for every facet of life.

Those were the governmental legal laws of Israel, that dealt with morality, cleanness, dealing with disease and quarantine, laws on capital crimes, standard crimes, laws on worship, divorce, marriage.

These were their laws for their particular society. They were an actual government with a ruling body, a king, a police and military force.

They were a physical country and government so had their laws which they feel God gave them.

Their laws set them apart from the nations around them. They worshipped a single God and not many gods. They had their standards as a government and people falling under that government to follow. The laws were made for them.

Now when it comes to the Sabbath, sacrificing animals, etc. We are not Israelites or Jews and do not fall under that Government. There is no priest hood, no temple and I'm not a Jew so those governmental laws do not apply to me they applied to them at that time.

The New Testament maps out many of the principals of the law and reiterates laws as Christians, but Christianity is not and should not be a government. Big differance between Christians and Jews.

The Jews were under the old Testament as part of the government arrangement and as physical Jews born in Jerusalem and living in Jerusalem they are under that law of the OT.

Jerusalem had a judicial system and if people broke the law they were under that jurisdiction. Those happened to be their laws provided to them as a nation.

Just like today, I'm an American and fall under American laws. China laws don't apply to me as I'm not in China.

But at the same time there are universal laws that apply no matter where I go.

For example it's against the law in China for someone to murder someone. In the US same thing holds true.

We are not under the Jewish judicial system and many of the laws do not apply. We were not born under that jurisdiction as the ancient Jews were. Physically they were born Jews in Israel.

Being a Jew was not a choice but a birthright for them. Just like I didn't choose to be an American and have to be subject to it's laws. I was born in America.

Christians on the other hand choose to live under these laws and regulations as set out by the New Testament. Many of the principals of the Jewish law were still applicable and those were made specific in the New Testament for Christians to follow.

The laws for Christians who choose to be Christians are outlined in the New Testament.

But that is where this family is wrong. Christianity is a choice, we are not under a special government like the Jews in a physical government. We are not the morality police, nor should act like them. It is not our right to force them to believe or protest against them. We definately can't judge.

Differance is the Jews had government officials and judges, these were their laws and they were a LEGAL entity and had the right to judge as an actual government entity. You on the other hand are simply a Christian, not a legal entity, not a government so have no legal right to JUDGE! Your not part of a special government plain and simple.

On top of that as a Christian, this family should know that their position is to be polictically neutral.

As a Christian it is not my right to judge. God did not appoint me as a judge or a legal nation and neither did the US government so guess what. No right to judge.

However I do have a right to try to teach others and inform them. It's the right to free speech. If someone doesn't want to listen then they have the right to say "I'm not interested" and then I'll move on my merry way. Other than that you are free to do and believe what you want. God didn't pay me to judge, that's his job.

And if you don't believe in God, that's up to you. I don't believe you'll burn in hell, you'll simply take the dirt nap you are expecting to do anyways. Bible doesn't teach hellfire, that concept is derived from Pagan sources of afterlife.

Bible says "wages of sin is death"
"Dead are conscious of nothing" "From dust you are and dust you will return"

Straight from the Bible.

When the Bibl
  by: shawn1flog   04/03/2007 06:24 PM     
Straight from the Bible.

When the Bible talks of people burning in Gehenna you have to understand from the Jewish perspective. Gehenna was were you threw trash, it was were you burned things, that simply meant that it was gone for good consumed by fire. When something is consumed by fire it is simply gone forever.

When you see the word Hell in the bible it is merely translation. Hell to the Jews was the common grave Sheol or Hades where everyone went. Jesus went to Hell and Job prayed to go to hell. IN other words they died and went to man's common grave. If you are reading the bible you have to take it from the writers perspective who happened to be Jews.

Burning in Hell forever would negate the eye for eye policy. No amount of bad in an 80 year lifetime would equal torture for eternity.

So if you believe in God great, glad you have a hope and your family takes comfort if you die.

If you don't believe in God, I'm sorry, but never fear burning forever, the worst that could happen is you take the dirt nap you were already expecting.

Whether you take that eternal dirt map is not up to me, not me to judge. It's up to either science or God. Either way same result.
  by: shawn1flog   04/03/2007 06:25 PM     
  come on now..  
This bible quoting is getting old.. it was at a funeral.. look at the big picture.. stop yelling bullsh*t from the bible you freaks..
  by: andyvan444   04/03/2007 07:11 PM     
As for Homos.. I dont agree with them.. but leave me alone and i will leave them alone.. ewwwwwwwww
  by: andyvan444   04/03/2007 07:13 PM     
but I cannot wait until one of their "extended/inbred" family members comes out of the closet.
  by: genibus   04/03/2007 07:51 PM     
That's an interesting perspective on the Bible. But you state it as if it were irrefutable and true. However, even among Christians you are going to find plenty who disagree with your interpretation. I live in Bible belt, and around here most people think that the entire Bible from beginning to end is the absolute final word on everything. When it says that the World was made in 6 days, they take this to mean the literal truth. It is not a metaphor or a story or days were not longer back then or any of the other excuses. They believe it is the actual word of God.

So it's all very interesting how you interpret things, but you don't even speak for all Christians in your outlook. It is merely what you believe. Therein lies my problem with your post. You write as if you and you alone understand the real truth about what the Bible means and how it was intended to be read, yet if you took the billion or so Christians that exist in the world, not even a third would choose to interpret their religion in the manner that you do. So I don't think that you can make such sweeping comments as if they were facts.
  by: ZCT     04/03/2007 08:55 PM     
The thing about Christianity is that at the end of the day it is one book with 100s of interpretations. But the fact of the matter it was meant by the writer to interpret only one way, the writers themselves did not write 10 differant versions it's only people who interpret it 10 differant ways.

I honestly don't speak for all Christians, but I wanted to speak up and provide other more logical reasoning and not in the apologetic standard repoire.

You raise a good point of how literal people take things, like the Earth being made in 6 days.

That idea makes it look like it is the Bible that contradicts science, but in reality it is their idea that contradicts both.

Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

The bible simply says in the beginning God created heaven and Earth. Who knows how many billions of years the Earth stayed in the devoid of life state. It says it was made around the same time as heaven and who can deny the heavens are billions of years old.

The bible says the Earth was devoid of life or anything until God turned his attention toward it. Plain and simple. So the bible does not contradict the idea the Earth is billions of years old. In fact the bible implies the Earth is as old as the heavens. In the beginning God created heaven AND earth.

It's not the bible that is wrong, it's people not actually reading their Bible and misrepresenting false ideas.

When the Bible talks about creative days it uses the word "yohm" in Hebrew which does not always refer to a literal day but a period of time.

For example we here old folks say "In the good ol days" Does it mean they a referring to a couple of days? The Good ol days can encompass and entire generation, decades or years.

The creative days are not literally 24 hours, which science even disproves.

It's people's ideas that present the Bible and Christianity in a bad light.

People like this "most hated family"

Yes the Bible condemns homosexuality in both the Old and New Testement.

The Old Testement was for the nation and government of Israel. It was their governmental law within their borders of Israel.

I don't live in Israel and I'm not a Jew. The Jews were born Jews and had to follow the laws of the land.

In our time those who descide to serve as Christians choose to do so and thus follow the rules in the New Testament,some of those laws were reiterated from the Old Testament. It's a descision they must make personally and have no authority to deny others rights to choose for themselves whether they abide by those rules or not.

Jesus said to preach and teach people, but he said where people did not want it, to wipe the sand off your feet and go to the next person, not stand outside and protest and get in their business and judge and spread hatred.

I know I don't speak for all Christians, but please note that not all Christians are crazy and some of us actually really think things through logically from the Bible.

The Bible is not that difficult to understand people just make it difficult and really don't read or follow their own book, they just flip it around like a sword but have no mastery of it. They thus make it a distasteful thing to logic itself.

  by: shawn1flog   04/03/2007 10:22 PM     
I believe that this whole 'how long is a day' concept is yet another excuse used by Biblical apologists.

Let's look at Genesis 1:3-5

1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So God creates light. Now true this is silly because he didn't make the sun for another few days, so I guess this was magic God light that had no actual source, but I digress.

The passage I have just cut and paste states quite clearly that God invented a day by creating a separation between night and day. Now sure you could argue that a day could be a million years of light followed by a night that was a million years of darkness, but that wouldn't help the plant life very much that requires light to live.

I think that Genesis makes it quite clear what a day is and what a night is. It even talks about an evening and a morning.

Genesis has no problem defining how long other things lasted, like the great flood, the length of time people lived (a few hundred years quite often). But you are claiming that in this specific instance a day has a different meaning from all other measures of time in Genesis.

Sorry, but it's a lame excuse. In fact there is further proof of the Biblical definitions of a day in Genesis 1:16 when God created the Sun and Moon. And as an after thought several trillion stars and other planets. This part of the Bible is also rather questionable since it implies that the Moon emits light, which of course it does not.

In the next sentence Genesis 1:17 then talks about the stars as if they were little light bulbs screwed into the ceiling, which is also pretty silly.

I could go on, but I'm sure you've been taught all manner of excuses for the whole thing, so we'd both be wasting our time.
  by: ZCT     04/03/2007 11:16 PM     
  cont to ZCT  
"So it's all very interesting how you interpret things, but you don't even speak for all Christians in your outlook. It is merely what you believe. Therein lies my problem with your post. You write as if you and you alone understand the real truth about what the Bible means and how it was intended to be read, yet if you took the billion or so Christians that exist in the world, not even a third would choose to interpret their religion in the manner that you do. So I don't think that you can make such sweeping comments as if they were facts."

I don't speak for all Christians or not even a third of them and you are right most of them don't prescribe to what I believe in the Bible.

The Bible itself says that folks "would have a form of Godly devotion and prove false to it's power"

It also says the original teachings of the Bible would be warped by apostates who fornicated with the politics of the world and would include teachings outside of Christianity including pagan doctrines. It is really straight up about this.

For that matter Easter coming up is the name of a fertility Goddess and her symbols are the rabbit and egg. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia puts forth this information but they include pagan rituals with Christianity despite the fact.

Alot of pagan beliefs crept in and people make it fit the scriptures, but if you take all those pagan beliefs away you have a simple logical explanation of the Bible.

Here is what I know a true Christian should be, and it's a simple logical and clear from the Bible itself.

True Christians would have love among themselves. That means Palestenian Christians and Jewish Christians would love each other and would in no way go to war or fight one another for polictical reasons. Unlike the Jutu and Tutsi who despite their 80% common Christian religion chopped each other up in an attempted Genocide. (80% of both sides were Catholic)

They would live a clean and moral lifestyle according to the Bibles standards. No fornication, idolatry, adultery, lying, cheating, homosexuality, etc. But that would be their personal choice that they would make upon themselves, they couldn't do that for other people, it was not their place to force it down people's throats or threaten those that did not choose to be Christians. In fact early Christians were the ones persecuted for their beliefs, not the other way around.

Especially if you yourself are fornicating, lying or idolterating, don't get mad at the homosexuals. All those sins were in the same sentence so just as bad.

Pagan doctrines outside the Bible would not be incorporated into the Church. Including pagan rituals. December 25th is not Jesus birthday it is the God Mithra or even further Baals birthday. Easter is not Jesus holy day, that is called the Passover, Easter is the Goddess Ishtars festival.

Take a queue from the Israelists who got crushed by the Assyrians and Babylon because they incorporated Baal and fertility goddess worship into Judaism. If they got in trouble for it, that pretty much tells you God does not want it incorporated it into Christian worship. So pagan rituals should be out of the picture.

In a bible account of Jesus, their was a group of Jews who tried to make him a king but he refused and they tried to kill him. Why did he refuse? Because he chose to not be involved in the politics of the day. Like he himself said "My Kingdom is no part of the world" Early Christians were hated by the Romans in later times because they were politically neutral. They did not get involved in politics, early Jesus time Christians. Christianity was to be neutral, Jesus himself set the example. So a Christian running for a political office? For that matter the Bible said "Satan was the god of this system of things" and Satan himself tempted Jesus with offering him the Kingdoms of the world. Jesus never denied him actually owning them. Christians obligation to the government was simply be in subjection to it, obey the laws and be a good citizen but not take part in it's politics. aka "pay Ceasars things to Ceasars but God's things to God" So should a Christian be involved politics when it's by the Bible's standpoint Satan that runs the whole thing?

Simple, logic straight from the Bible, an easy comparison of Christians in general now and Christians during Jesus time.

The Bible itself says why there are so many professed Christians and what would eventually happen over time as it has and why so many differant views

2 Pet 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them

Plain as day they would make divisions, swap up beliefs and deviate from the original Christianity.

I am passionate about this because I think Christianity itself has been misrepresented, and I hope at least you ha
  by: shawn1flog   04/03/2007 11:17 PM     
I hope at least you have a differant angle of viewing Christianity, not to become a believer, but at least a differant view outside of the mainstream that can leave a bad taste in people's mouths.
  by: shawn1flog   04/03/2007 11:18 PM     
Sorry I jumped in on your multi-post, I thought you had already finished.

I hardly think that my views are 'mainstream' as you implied. I have my own views on Christianity based on years of observation and study. I didn't just take a five week evening class on being an Atheist just so I could argue with people like you.

I accept that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and religion. I have a problem with people who like to use their religion as an excuse for evil, as with the man in this news story. I also have a problem with people who call themselves a Christian without bothering to read the Bible or follow the teachings therein.

While you and I will never likely agree or share the same viewpoint, I have a lot of respect for people like you that are clearly well versed on the subject matter. Far more than the faux Christians that cannot even name the ten commandments that they want put up in schools.
  by: ZCT     04/03/2007 11:28 PM     
when I said "mainstream" I meant mainstream Christianity, not you, sorry about that.

I think both our views are not maintstream, and I think both of us feel strongly about people using religion for evil and Christians who say they follow the bible but don't actually even know what's in it.

The reason I specifically addressed you is because you really are someone I respect and see logic in views.

I appreciate being able to have a friendly debate or at least share ideas.

Thanks for the reading eye! :)
  by: shawn1flog   04/03/2007 11:34 PM     
It's refreshing to find another Christian who actually reads the Bible properly. Your explanation about the differences between the Old Testament and New Testament are bang on. I figured I'd reiterate one of your points to make sure everyone is clear on the matter: Many people have a hard time differentiating God's universal law (The Ten Commandments) from the Laws of Israel which are intended only for the physical government of Old Testament Israel. While the Ten Commandments still apply to Christians today, the old physical laws for Israel do not. I could dig up a few verses written by the apostle Paul to back up this statement, but I don't have a Bible handy right now. So, anyways, my point is that this irritating family is trying to enforce a law that doesn't even apply anymore. Like ZCT said, Christians are taught never to pass judgement on people. The fact that this family is only proves that they are not real Christians at all.
  by: Mr_Manny   04/03/2007 11:44 PM     
  Famous Simpsons Quote  
Bart - So according to the bible there were no cave men

Homer - Good Riddance their Drawing suck & they look like Hippies
  by: CriticalCone   04/04/2007 06:50 AM     
chrysmevalesco: "I think we can begin to believe the bullshit of the Old Testament again when frogs fall from the sky, etc."

Better start readin
  by: jamiehackl   04/05/2007 10:04 AM     
This phelps 'grandfather' so to speak, has some issues concerning the Bible. On the program recently aired on the BBC, he proclaimed that they (a group of 70-odd) are the only ones to make it to the kingdom! Ridiculous! It says in John 10 v16, quoting directly: "And OTHER sheep i have which are not of this fold; them ALSO i must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"(KJV) I'd be interested to hear this fellow's answer to that. Also, if their 70 strong clique are the ONLY ones going to the Kingdom, what is the significance of the 144,000 faithful number, prophecied in revelation?? Surely, that can't represent 70-odd people?! Their attitude also perplexed and confused me. If God had TOTALLY forsaken this entire world other than their small group, why would God have sent his Son to die on the cross for the sins of this entire world? God knew how this world would end up, but still he gave his ONE and ONLY Son for US. I'm sure he wouldn't have if he didn't love and care for each and every one of us, regardless. Jesus represented the TRUE example of a pure life, and as far as i'm concerned from the Word it doesn't say ANYWHERE that Jesus brutally condemned people of their sins, using various signs and other means parading the streets of Galilee, making people feel terrible about themselves! He approached them with love and kindness and never put himself on a pedastool to look down from them upon. Jesus came in LOVE and he continues to. He loves each and every one of us even when we stray from him or pull ourselves from the arms of his love. I would really like to have an interview with this man, not to condemn so much, but to show him that somewhere along the lines his spiritual discernment has been warped and he's wandering down a dangerous path. Proclaiming 'self-righteousness' in the first place, should be a warning to everyone about how misled and blinded they are to the REAL truth.
  by: JJ07   04/08/2007 12:39 AM     
i remember watching the programme and i was shocked, they have spun out of control, they are taking events from the past and somehow linking it to homosexuality, they had a picture od princess diana saying "royal whore" couldnt believe it,, being a homosexual myself i am obviousoly outraged but not just because it is aimed at homosexueals but because other people are being dragged into this and it is not fair.
  by: silver hedgehog   08/07/2008 12:59 PM     
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