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12/20/2007 04:10 PM ID: 67256 Permalink   

Native American Lakota Tribe Establish their Own Country


The Lakota native Americans, the tribe where Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse are from, have withdrawn from the 150-yr-old treaties between them and the United States.

The Newly established country which will include parts of the states of Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana and the Dakotas welcomes anyone who wants to deny their U.S. citizenship. The country plans to be tax-free for residents.

The article states that the move is totally legal, citing that there are 33 treaties, which according to article 6 of the Constitution are the supreme law of the land, which the U.S. have not honored.

    WebReporter: crosimoto Show Calling Card      
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
I don't know what the exact appeal of moving there would be--- but I imagine that people who do join the tribe are going to face stringent restrictions on travel within the USA. I don't know other than what this article states-- however, I do have opinions on all the 'Phyllis Young' types who claim to be native-american when they are really just 1/16th and want to make a profit from casinos. I have native ancestry from the Potomac area, my great-great-grandmother.... but you don't see me kicking Bush out of the White House because he's on my land. hehah. Would be funny.

I hope they at least legalize marijuana in Lakota country. :)
  by: theironboard     12/20/2007 04:24 PM     
i'd like to remind the us government that they decided to apply the right of self determination for the people in 1918 !

so any attempt to reverse this decision would be declared anti democratic and would be a violation of international law... made by the usa .... LOL
  by: ProTesTa     12/20/2007 04:36 PM     
My grandma was re-married to Souix Native, last named Blackhawk and his sisters, my aunts, had a real dislike/distrust for white people. I don't see where the U.S. has done enough to do 'right' by the Native Americans. Even though I know that there's only so much you CAN do, you should do all that you can. To move into someone's house and start taking over in the name of 'Survival of the Fittest' (while you hand them polio) is shameful.
  by: crosimoto     12/20/2007 04:38 PM     
That's pretty awesome.
  by: Libertario Cubano   12/20/2007 04:51 PM     
  We take what we want.  
We Americans don't even recognize the sovereignty of other nations much less areas within our own borders. The Native Americans will be crushed like ants.
  by: TheBlob   12/20/2007 04:53 PM     
  Does this mean  
we don’t have to send them any more money?
Sounds good to me. Give them the waste land and build a big fence around it. Cut them off and post armed guards around the perimeter. See how long they survive. Up here the Red Lake tribe has gotten so nasty a State Representative is calling for the building of a fence and isolating them. Search every car for guns, booze and cigarettes, make them carry passports and have check points at all exits from the rez. A majority of the population up here supports the idea. They’ve even named the local jail “The Red Lake Resort” because most of the inhabitants are natives. We have the highest car theft rate per capita in the nation and all you have to do to find the cars is watch for the smoke plume rising above the rez, burned. We had a 1% murder rate last year. When I first moved here I had no knowledge of the natives, I have learned, and it ain’t good. I worked for the rez and I have never been so abused by an employer in my life. I don’t have much nice to say about the natives I’ve been exposed to, few if any redeeming qualities. The prejudice and hatred towards the white man is blatant, yet they are the first to scream, “discrimination”. From what I’ve seen the reservations are a failed experiment and should be shut down. Welcome to America, love it or leave it, game over.
  by: Valkyrie123     12/20/2007 05:11 PM     
I figured a reservation would have done that sometime ago. From what I understand, most if not all of them are already autonomous.
  by: FreakKeeper     12/20/2007 05:40 PM     
  not that you care  
but the 'after affects' of subjugating a people has something to do with it.
  by: crosimoto     12/20/2007 05:46 PM     
  Reminds me of Petoria  
I have a funny feeling it might end in the same way as well.
  by: HighTeckRedNeck   12/20/2007 06:00 PM     
I'm with Valk, wall it off, wait a year, remove corpses and resettle.

Perhaps you can explain when exactly Valk subjugated anyone?
  by: AnsweringQuestions     12/20/2007 06:02 PM     
Er. Don't you think these people have the right to do with their tribal lands as they please? I don't see any benefit to the United States to fence them off and treat them like cattle. If you don't like the natives, why don't you just move?
  by: Libertario Cubano   12/20/2007 06:05 PM     
  @Answering...'t you the clever one.
  by: crosimoto     12/20/2007 06:09 PM     
"Er. Don't you think these people have the right to do with their tribal lands as they please?"

Which is why she fully supports independance for them.

"I don't see any benefit to the United States to fence them off and treat them like cattle"

Lower crime rates

"If you don't like the natives, why don't you just move?"

Why should she?
I thought the point was violent racists are arrested,. not pandered too.
  by: AnsweringQuestions     12/20/2007 06:09 PM     
"'t you the clever one. "

  by: AnsweringQuestions     12/20/2007 06:16 PM     
That was just what I was thinking about when I read the article. Pretoria/South Africa... But in their case they were completely surrounds by SA and had literally EVERYTHING going into and out of Pretoria highly taxed and regulated... Much like the West Bank/Gaza.
  by: FreakKeeper     12/20/2007 07:14 PM     
  It WILL be interesting  
to see how this plays out. The last time they tried something like this (Custer's undoing), Sitting Bull announced that they had won the battle but lost the war. By "something like this", I mean doing something unilaterally against the United States.

And, the US has been stupid about this from day one, acknowleging that the Native Americans are in fact separate nations.

So, let's watch while whatever chips there might be, fly where they may.

I am part Native American (Mohawk) also.

It seems odd to me, that after the treatment each side had for the other (owing to differences in religion, culture, outlook on life in general) that people could possibly think that after all this time, all traces of animosity should disappear.
  by: LeePIII   12/20/2007 07:18 PM     
  @Cros @Lib  
I love comments from people that haven’t walked the walk. I have lived it for over a decade. I arrived here an innocent, with only the greatest respect for native cultures and religion. Now I think they would have been better off being wiped off the map a hundred years ago.

The corruption in the native government makes Dubya and Co. look like saints. Drug abuse is rampant, alcohol abuse is even worse, child abuse off the scale, murder rate 1%, unemployment off the scale, education non-existent, fetal alcohol syndrome off the scale, crime rate in every area off the scale, it can’t get much worse than this. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. My 60 year old neighbor was kidnapped while taking a walk and was found raped, murdered and left in a swamp, victim of a drunken native. When I go for a walk I carry a gun, a tazer and have a large dog with me. We haven’t had a tribal chair complete his 4 year term ever that I know of. The other councilmen get pissed when the chair doesn’t share the casino revenues he is stealing and they impeach him. Every tribal council meeting I have attended followed the same theme. Complain about a problem, stir up the deadbeats and then some crazy woman will jump up and blame it all on “the white man” and everyone whoops and hollers and dances around the room, pass the bottle. Pants and underwear are not required at tribal council meetings (that's another ugly story, yuck). All of them think they are entitled to anything and everything and “the white man” owes it to them. I have never seen a business where everyone shows up 2 hrs late and no one cares because it’s expected. The house next door to where I used to live was a drug house protected by the tribal police.

Go ahead, form your own nation. It will only be a year or two and they will all kill each other over drugs, booze, women, money or any other excuse they can find. They killed 1 out of every 100 residents just last year. They have my blessing, send ammo, this could be the great white hope. I’ve never seen a people so bent on self destruction. I don’t want to treat them like cattle, I feed my cattle, I don’t want to throw another penny down this sewer.

Why don’t I move? I own my property and the fishing is awesome. I avoid any contact with the natives here. It will only bring grief. The town here is the home of the native mob. Wonderful, what a claim to fame. We have constant battles with the Bloods, Crips, Gangster Disciples and half a dozen other gangs. Even the grade school is filled with drug dealing gang bangers. When I look at a culture I see what they have accomplished, what they are trying to accomplish and what good they have done for the world. Granted, under Dubya and Co. the US is currently f*@king up pretty good and that’s why I don’t support our current regime. But I have seen little to no benefit to any society from the native community. All I hear is "gimme". There is so little good and so much bad. Why keep throwing money at the problem, it only makes it worse. Succeed, build a fence, you’re on your own, freedom, PLEASE.

I don’t care if you hire illegal aliens to build a fence, I’m tired of the bullsh!t. If you want to “save” them be my guest, just remember to bring your Kevlar, you’re going to need it. Welcome to my world. All I ask is make a reality TV show outta this, I could use some good entertainment.
  by: Valkyrie123     12/20/2007 08:25 PM     
Valkyrie's logic makes me laugh and cry at the same time.
It's like people screaming reverse racism at BET. It reminds me of that one Family Guy episode where the slave gets his shackles taken off and the former master says "So, we're cool now, right?"
Of course not, you can't punish someone's ancestors and then turn around and tell the modern day descendant "well, YOU weren't the one slaved and discriminated against, so why are you mad?"
Because your forefathers left you an inheritance, ass. Likely built up by, or stolen from, my forefathers. They may not be the savages or slaves anymore, but they would have to be extremely lucky to have even 3 generations of wealth built up (or even family heirlooms) because the playing field has only been remotely close to even for 40 years (you can't forget segregation - it was more than just separate water fountains). And I say remotely because contemporary wealth building institutions are still caught lending money with inequality. People that don't understand why minorities seem to be "lashing out" are astounding. It's no surprise that if you grew up knowing your whole life that your land or freedom was taken, you would seek to gain it back. And no, saying "You're an American now! We're sorry..." isn't enough to cover generations of now unaccountable socio-economic devastation that still lingers to this day.
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 08:38 PM     
And you have the nerve to place all the blame on them... heh. Who do you think thought I would be really cool to round them all up in the first place and reduce their numbers? It's like a parent that beat the living shit out of their child being surprised that they grew into a bully.
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 08:44 PM     
"I love comments from people that haven’t walked the walk. I have lived it for over a decade. I arrived here an innocent, with only the greatest respect for native cultures and religion. Now I think they would have been better off being wiped off the map a hundred years ago."

how easy.

do u think natives have always been this way ? didn't ur ancestors kill most of their population ? rape most of their wife ? steal their lands ? put them in places where even animals don't want to live in ? we destoyed a thousand years culture in no time... and now they should be glad for it ? and u tell them to f off because they act the same as white people did some times ago?

u seem to disapprove the use of alcohol by natives.. why ? isn't one of the great invention white people brought in usa and offered to natives ?

u tell a lot of a facts.. without telling the causes.

  by: ProTesTa     12/20/2007 08:50 PM     
  Vent all you want  
it's a free country Valk, but in the truth of the matter, you haven't walked "THE" walk,'ve walked YOUR walk, and generalised scathing comments hold as much integrity as generalised praise. I'm sorry for YOUR experiences. Not all Native americans deserve to wiped off the face of a planet YOU didn't create. Take for instance Sacajawea, and I'm not a history buff, but I'm sure there are others. I use the U.S as in reference to the government (as opposed to saying Americans). The govt provides free college for Native Americans, I simply don't think that's enough. feel free to disagree and bash at will.
  by: crosimoto     12/20/2007 08:50 PM     
Richmond California has the highest car theft rate in the nation. About one in five hundred cars there will be stolen in a given year. This information is publically available, its how some insurance companies base rates by regional area. On a side note, richmond also has the second highest murder per capita, second only to Washington D.C. I believe.
  by: Tetsuru Uzuki     12/20/2007 08:51 PM     
  At the end of the day  
Its not right for them to be so violent. Its not good that they have an addiction to alcohol. Its their choice to form their own counrty. But the reason why they are the NATIVE Americans is because they were here FIRST. ANYTHING that happened after that was a DIRECT effect of white men. Valk, like it or not, their hatred for your race (not you personally) is valid, because had it not been for your ancestors putting them in this situation, you wouldn't be able to bitch about the problems they cause today.

lol It's the same argument about black people. "We should all be shipped back to Africa, we are ruining this country, blah blah blah." WE WERE BROUGHT HERE AGAINST OUR WILL. So like it or not once again, don't complain about the results of a problem without acknowledging the cause.
  by: kcking05     12/20/2007 09:01 PM     
"But I have seen little to no benefit to any society from the native community. All I hear is "gimme"."

Mainly "gimme back that land we've benefited your society with for half a millennium."
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 09:04 PM     
  @emceay @Pro @ Cros  
The Ojibwe were NOT here first…or even second. They stole the land from others and killed them just like the white man did. I didn’t inherit anything. I worked hard for it and paid for it. The land I now own was once owned by a native. He sold it, and 4 owners later I now own it. No one took it from a native. The land here has passed through 6 owner tribes before the white man arrived in just the past 300 years. Before that there were dozens of tribal owners all killing each other for the right to “own” this land. Genocide is nothing new around here, it’s been going on for over 10,000 years and “the white man” had nothing to do with it back then. I guess we don’t want to be reminded of this “inconvenient truth”. Who was here first? Does it matter? Red herring. If you want to play that game, who were the very first inhabitants of your land? Neanderthals? What happened to them? Give them back their land and get out you thief.

Never before in history was a conquered people given land and self governance. 1000 years ago they would have been enslaved and annihilated to the last man. I do believe I am owed if anyone is. And I have been paying for this my entire life.

You are responsible for your thought, feelings and actions, no one else. I don’t make the natives here commit crimes, they choose to. The Asian community doesn’t act like this because they choose not to.

Here the government supplied the natives with a house and land, all paid for by the US taxpayers. No one ever gave me a house or land. The houses are stripped within a year for firewood that is burned in the barrel stove in the living room. The pipes are torn out and sold to buy booze. All trim burned, siding burned, within a year it is a tar paper shack, and they want more. NO MORE! Done, you are your own nation, no food stamps, no welfare, no free college, no nothing. Good riddance. Your choice and I couldn’t agree more.

You all seem to be upset that the natives are getting their own country. Or is it you are upset that I won’t have to pay them anymore? Which is it?
  by: Valkyrie123     12/20/2007 09:49 PM     
i'm just upset about you almost denyin a genocide of millions of people.

yeh indeed,they were already fightin before the white man came, but it wasn't in the aim of a total eradication.. it was more because they needed some of the ressources in that place, in order to survive,and not to make big profit out of it. see the difference ?

"The land I now own was once owned by a native. He sold it, and 4 owners later I now own it."

ooh cute. so they just peacefully sold their land and it was over. dude.. we didn't ask them if they wanted to sale it, we forced them to do so after we killed most of their population. they didn't have the choice...

  by: ProTesTa     12/20/2007 10:27 PM     
  I'm sorry  
Saying that you personally inherited anything was mis-worded. While there are some families out there with accumulated wealth it's not everyone. However, one thing that's been consistent for generations that you can't refute is a negative social image of minority groups. And that, has a much larger impact than monetary deprivation. It's funny how you expect everyone to just magically shape up when people like you are still running around calling them the scum of the earth.
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 10:34 PM     
  In Canada...  
Natives are pretty bad too. A lot of alcohol problems and substance abuse (I guess gasoline really smells good).

But why are they exempt from being responsible? My family immigrated here from the Philippines just about 14 years ago. We started out at they very bottom but we've since moved up to about upper middle class (Go mom and dad!). These people need to DO SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES.
  by: edya   12/20/2007 10:47 PM     
Also, it's a little difficult to compare with Asian society, which has had a strong self identity and states that have been relatively permanent during the time that N.A. and blacks were being divided and conquered. Asia's had it's hardships with trade and colonization, but there wasn't quite the same effort to "subjugate the savages" with forced labor, stripping of culture, and the inability to read. At the very least they had -man appended to their slur..
I agree that people are responsible for their actions. But, you can't just wash your hands of actions past and act like everyone's on an even playing field.
I'm not upset that they're getting their own land, nor that you're not paying. I'm mad that you're willing to piss on an already urine soaked parade.
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 10:47 PM     
  != immigration  
"My family immigrated here from the Philippines just about 14 years ago. We started out at they very bottom"

That's a fresh start, and you were born to people that wanted to achieve and as far as they knew, could. We're talking about something else here.
I'm curious what your folks did, and whether they had connections when they moved here. But, that's another story, my point is that they came here with the intent to make a life - get the American dream. This issue here is about a small portion of society banding together to make change in the eyes of the people that have made a conscious effort for generations to oppress them. It is a two way street that takes more than just the minority groups "doing something for themselves," because they are. The rest of society is obligated to help and not turn a blind eye, and especially not talk shit about how long it takes for the minority to clean up the mess the majority made in the first place.
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 11:00 PM     
do you live anywhere near Natives?

Here in the PNW, they get to hunt whales with .50 cal machine guns, and use nets. they cause nothing but trouble, everything said by Valk holds truth here. The land they got is not some worthless land that you are thinking of but some of the finest in the state. A lot of it is right on the water. I would have to say that i have met few Natives that are very cool people but they are in the minority and don’t live on the Res.

I think the US gov should do away with the Res. and all of the freebees, they are never gona learn if you just keeping giving them things. its only gona get worse.

and dont start with this well we took there land bull crap. my home land was once occupied by the Ottoman empire (for over 500 years) and was not given back till the early 1900's, thanks to the Russians. there are villages that are very much the same culture as mine but you don’t see me screaming at the Turks to give it back. They took it we lost we are lucky to get most of it back.

I say to all Natives grow up and do something for yourself for once instead of waiting for a hand out.
  by: snowman47   12/20/2007 11:22 PM     
  Over here...  
There's a LOT being done to help aboriginals. There are scholarships to be had for anybody who can prove their aboriginal status. They can receive tax exemptions if they're on a reserve for a bunch of things and all this information is readily available (Google). (Of course not EVERY aboriginal is a drunk/huffer)

My parents, as far as I know, didn't have any "connections". It was just a LOT of hard work from my father.
  by: edya   12/20/2007 11:25 PM     
  The History Of Most Nations  
I can't think of any nation that has not traded hands by force at one time or another.Even the native indian tribes of the Americas faught with each other over teritory.To select the U.S. out of all of these for chastising is rediculous.
P.S. The Kennewick Man ( caucasoid with possible Asian ancestory seems to out date the American Indians claim to being the original native to the Americas.
  by: ichi     12/20/2007 11:25 PM     
  I suppose..  
It's not just the taken land, it's pretty much social, economic, and even genetic devastation. But yet, you expect to dust your hands clean and say "stand up from your centuries-long assbeating." You can't just pretend like this problem in your backyard wasn't caused by leaving the gate open. Everyone points fingers on a two way street.
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 11:40 PM     
"and dont start with this well we took there land bull crap. my home land was once occupied by the Ottoman empire (for over 500 years) and was not given back till the early 1900's, thanks to the Russians."

What do you identify yourself on the census as? What about the past few generations that've lived here since the Ottoman Empire took it.. I bet since arriving, they haven't had much of a problem voting - but correct me if I'm wrong...
  by: emceay   12/20/2007 11:50 PM     
  there is one small difference  
between Neanderthals and Native Americans.
Native Americans are still HERE. If Neanderthals, or any other group were here exclaiming injustices, someone would be about helping them. And as a civilized, developed democracy, we don't operate by barbaric tactics, so you don't expect the govt to take the stance..."hey you had your chance and it didn't work out for you...too bad. Now get the heck outta mah face."
  by: crosimoto     12/20/2007 11:52 PM     
  @Pro @cros @emceay  
I just stated there were many genocides by many groups.

“it was more because they needed some of the resources in that place, in order to survive, and not to make big profit out of it. See the difference ?”

Uh, no, not really. The resources are being used and much more efficiently than they would have if “the white man” hadn’t showed up. Have 260,000,000 people ever lived on this piece of land successfully before?

“so they just peacefully sold their land and it was over. dude..”

well actually dude, yes, it is part of an open reservation. The families here were all awarded acreage and a home on the reservation. They could do whatever they wanted to with it. The native family that was awarded this property owned the entire lake and the surrounding 4 sq miles of land. The father kept the land his whole life. His kids hated the rez and moved away. When he died the kids sold the land for the dollars. They got rich. No one made them sell the land, they just didn’t want to live here. I can’t blame them. The land was subdivided many times and now I own a piece of it. This is an “open rez” anyone can own land here.

“there is one small difference between Neanderthals and Native Americans.
Native Americans are still HERE.”

We killed the Neanderthals, genocide, our species, we are all guilty. Are you saying genocide is better than a reservation and self governance? I think you might be right. We can be barbaric together.

“I'm mad that you're willing to piss on an already urine soaked parade.”

It ain’t my parade. I’m just wallowing in the piss like the gutter snipe I am.

“That's a fresh start, and you were born to people that wanted to achieve and as far as they knew, could. We're talking about something else here.”

For how long are we going to be “talking about something else here”? How many generations before things get better? It’s sinking fast here, the experiment failed. Pumping in more money won’t help, it will only increase the corruption and the drug use. This is a war zone. Baghdad doesn’t have a 1% death rate. But the way this government works nothing will change except they will send more money they don’t have. Just like Iraq. The horse is dead, stop beating it.

“when people like you are still running around calling them the scum of the earth.”

Not nice, shame on you. I never said any such thing. I said the experiment failed. The reservation system is nothing but a social experiment. Look at it from a scientific point of view instead of an emotional one. It had never been done before, an entirely new concept. Some of the reservations out east and down south do work to some extent. These up here are a complete failure and should be put out of their misery before more people die. This has become a breeding ground of crime and gang members. Just because an experiment failed doesn’t mean we are stuck with it forever. Give the Sioux just what they want. Let them run their own experiment. I’m all for it. No interference from “the white man”. Makes perfect sense to me. Are you against that?
  by: valkyrie123     12/21/2007 01:15 AM     
Cool sorta sound like the book I am Legend.

Anyone know what name this country will be called...
  by: si182uk   12/21/2007 01:21 AM     
I must admit I am over 1/2 native American. Reading all sides of the matter shows some real pain in a lot of people. I was not raised native but my first thought was positive for the action. Now it appears the whole thing is a ticking time bomb of hate and pain. I for one want nothing to do with it and am glad that Dubya is all I have to complain about. Best wishes for all those concerned but just a word - tread softly the people of this world are beginning to be as cold hearted as I have seen them in my 60 years. I am afraid all that can come of this is a lot of bloodshed and suffering.
  by: starmutt   12/21/2007 02:23 AM     
"What do you identify yourself on the census as? What about the past few generations that've lived here since the Ottoman Empire took it.. I bet since arriving, they haven't had much of a problem voting - but correct me if I'm wrong..."

White European

I have no idea what you are trying to say? Voting for what? we got our land back from the Ottomans in the early 1900's.
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 02:37 AM     
Voting for the course of your country, your freedom, your home. Something not all residents of this country have had bestowed on them until the last century. Basically, what I'm trying to say is when your land was taken, your people moved elsewhere - here. They weren't enslaved, and when they got here they could blend in; their skin wasn't a beacon for continued discrimination.
The kind of rifts that were formed in America have had lasting effects. The way you put it seems as if it's solely the minority's fault for not pulling themselves up. It just seems as though other social aspects like segregated education have no lasting economic impact on history in your eyes. The census question was more a statement that since coming here, your ancestors have had substantially less limits on their freedoms, most poignant of which is voting - the very crux of democracy. It's all too easy to say empowerment is a simple task when it wasn't your folks forbidden from entering establishments, learning language, earning money, or having a political say; and even to this day some disparities still exist. Hence the tongue-in-cheek.

As for Valkyrie.. You basically said they weren't making any lasting contribution to society. I'm not pissed off about them getting their own land at all (personally I think it's a poor strategy). It's just that I get this odd feeling from you that whether or not this is dispossessed land, reservation, etc., you have an air about you that no one is owed anything these days - without factoring centuries of inequality into your equation.
  by: emceay   12/21/2007 03:11 AM     
  Dadburnit, Valk  
You tripped my trigger AGAIN. I agree with every d word you said in your post's on this thread. Will you stop inflaming the dumba$$? LOL Keep up the good work
  by: old man   12/21/2007 03:26 AM     
Got me again, that's twice today old man..
  by: emceay   12/21/2007 03:39 AM     
  How is this different  
from any other "micro nation?" Sea Land did basicly the same thing. If the governments of the world don't recognize them, they aren't independant. It doesn't matter what they claim, they need recognition.
  by: psycobob     12/21/2007 03:41 AM     
  How is this different  
from any other "micro nation?" Sea Land did basicly the same thing. If the governments of the world don't recognize them, they aren't independant. It doesn't matter what they claim, they need recognition.
  by: psycobob     12/21/2007 03:41 AM     
  @Old Man @psycobob @psycobob @Star @emceay @Pro  
@Old Man
I think after awhile you either become a cynical realist or just an idiot. I believe we have evolved to encompass both with a large heaping of the latter. Isn’t senility fun?

It is sad, but I’m not one to beat a dead horse. If it doesn’t work, try something else, keep trying till something works. This isn’t working, time for new ideas and another try.

Déjà vu

Déjà vu

“all that can come of this is a lot of bloodshed and suffering.”

Hon, we past that stage years ago. Now we are up to gang beating blind people to death on Main Street for Thanksgiving and mutilation murders of teenagers with eyes gouged out and body parts cut off….oh and disembowelment…just a mile from my house. Time for a new social experiment, please.

@emceay @Pro @Cros
Don’t you just hate it when you agree on the subject with “the bad guy” but for completely different reasons? It almost invalidates your reasons and makes you want to change your mind just so we can have an “us” and a “them” dichotomy and balance. Bi-partisanship, oh the horror!
  by: valkyrie123     12/21/2007 04:20 AM     
Sounds like a place for North American criminals to seek asylum or just a place for people to go use drugs in peace. I for 1 would love to be able to sit on my front porch and smoke a bowl without fear of cops rolling up.
  by: Chimmy420   12/21/2007 04:54 AM     
  Congatulations new Lakota Nation!!!  
Self determination and independence is the best way to solve any problems caused by years of colonization.
The US should have no problem with this. The US in the UN security counsul supports this kind of independence, for example Kosovo Albanian independence from Serbia.
Good luck Lakota Nation.
  by: andy54321   12/21/2007 05:29 AM     
I am sorry, I should have clarified that I moved to this country after the fall of communism around '91.
I had to learn the language as did my parents. i got no free education, unlike the natives.
my country went from one tyrant to another. Communism.
we had no rights, we didn’t have a voice until the fall of communism.
i am sorry but i feel no pain for the natives they have had more then 100 years to do something with the land they were given, when they could of just as easily been wiped off the map.

they have been given more options and opportunities then most people.
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 05:36 AM     
here is my point.

if the natives want there own country that’s fine, let them have it. hell the reservations are practically there own country as its.


they should not be allowed to travel outside there country unless they have passports. they also have to pay for water, elec., fuel, road constriction, and raise there own funds to pay for these things, they should not except a hand out. and if they pollute the waters and land then they should be held accountable

they should be treated as a sovereign nation and have to be taxed as one.

  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 05:54 AM     
I live in Canada as well. I'm sure your parents weren't FORCED to move to Canada (just like mine weren't). But the natives were forced in their reservations and most of their hunting grounds taken away from them. They were forced into a sedentary lifestyle; let's not forget that most of them were momads. They were forbidden to speak their languages or practice their faith for a long time. I happen to deal with natives regularly and I find that if they are treated with RESPECT they are surprised at first but eventually they respond in kind.
  by: konfucius   12/21/2007 09:32 AM     
Your understanding of geopolitical issues amazes me snowman. I'm sure Russia will be more than happy to start paying the US taxes because obviously as a sovereign nation they are obligated to do so. Otherwise if you meant 'how are they going to build roads and the like without taxes?' My answer would be why do they need them? They can decide if they want centrally controlled water supplies or not. And even so, do you think the US started doing everything with tax dollars? Most utilities started as private ventures to provide a service people wanted. As for pollution
do you think any other country holds America accountable for the pollution they create?
  by: Bella Morte   12/21/2007 09:37 AM     
What he meant is that the lakota nation should be treated like any other soverign nation.
The US doesnt build roads in Greece, why should it build them in Lakota?
  by: AnsweringQuestions     12/21/2007 10:21 AM     
  Caucasians aren't doing so crash hot a job  
Like many people commenting here, I have Native American ancestry. I like to look at the issue from both sides. I'd say that an agreement is an agreement and it's about time we started honoring them. European settlers decimated the Indians in North and South America and in Australia (where I am today), there are astonishing similarities with aboriginal people. We caused the mess. It's not money that's going to fix it up. It's gotta be an entire change of attitude and treatment. Look at what part of the government held the Department of Indian Affairs. Just like in Australia, it gets moved around as no one knows what to do with it. Well, they want to give it a go to run their own affairs. Good on them. Certainly they will take better care of the land and environment than we did. (for those complaining about crime in those areas like the reservations, that situation was caused by us. every group that white society 'conquered' or 'subjugated' came back to trouble us, but the 'original sin' was ours. Blacks we made slaves, Indians took their land and put them on reservations, or just killed them, immigrants we discriminated against. Then we wonder why later the high crime rates.)
  by: cyrusb   12/21/2007 11:29 AM     
Becareful where you step, I think Valks gathering a hoarde of barbarians to unleash some 'imminent domain' on those who don't play well together (no matter what the background story is). My comments have only suggested what you've also put forth "that although I"m sorry for her experiences, you can't consider 'Native Americans' all bad and since the U.S had a hand in their original 'fall from prominence', they should own up and be as responsible as possible;
Hand outs? -no - that's demeaning
Ostricized? -no - They've already fallen too far.
What's the answer? - I honestly don't know, but that wasn't even my initial point. But I think honoring the treatises would be a good start in the right direction.
  by: crosimoto     12/21/2007 12:18 PM     
Oh really? And why would anyone even consider the slightest inclining of a possible thought like building roads for another country? It doesn't even make sense to consider. Once they become their own nation they are obviously not part of the united states anymore, and thusly no government agencies/influence/money would even be allowed there.
  by: Bella Morte   12/21/2007 01:48 PM     
  @cros @cyrusb  
I don’t want to kill anyone, the natives are doing a fine job of killing each other already, they really don’t need any help. We just see this problem from two different points of view. You see it from a moral point of view, righting a wrong, it makes you feel good to help the unfortunate, take the moral high ground, support the underdog. I see this problem from the point of view of a refugee in a war zone, a survival situation, what do I have to do to live another day. When 1 out of every 100 people around me was murdered in a year how do I keep from becoming a statistic? Survival makes morality take the backseat. It doesn’t make one any less human.

I support this idea for many reasons, one of which is I will no longer be the heavy, the “bad guy”. When the natives have their own country with no influence from “the white man” they will no longer be able to point their finger and blame me for all their problems. Self autonomy, they will now be responsible for ALL their problems.

The part I found the most humorous about this plan is the “no taxes” idea. How will this government run, on hot air? The roads will deteriorate, the bridges will collapse, the water and sewer systems will shut off and that will be the minor problems. Up here over 60% of the native population lives off of welfare and food stamps. Those come from government taxes. Not any more. Did Russell Means check with the poor on the rez to see what they thought of this idea? Do they know they will be self autonomous, self supporting, self responsible, no food stamps, no welfare, no government aid? I’ll bet that will fly like a lead balloon. Russell may be rich enough to survive, most of the rest won’t stand a chance.

Yet, I applaud this idea, give it a try and I wish you the best. If and when it fails, and you want back into the fold, I say all bets, all treaties are off. No more rez, that experiment failed, no special right and privileges, you will be absorbed as just common everyday citizens like the rest of us. Have at it, farewell and good luck. Welcome to the real world.

I don’t consider all natives “bad”. Many are quite good. Many are friends of mine. The unfortunate truth is the drug gangs are taking over, corruption runs all the way to the top and people are dying in droves in this dysfunctional experiment gone wrong. It’s time to try something else, anything else. Are you suggesting that we keep funding this rolling disaster?

Old proverb: Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

“Caucasians aren't doing so crash hot a job”

Lame diversionary tactic, it ain’t about how well Caucasians are doing. Moot.

“It's gotta be an entire change of attitude and treatment.”

Have you ever been on a rez? I have lived here over 10 years and worked for the tribe for over 3. The attitude of the natives is one of pure hatred and bigotry. I’m talking in your face, name calling, disrespecting, lying, cheating, scum sucking hate. That is how I was treated by the natives. I had the utmost respect for the native culture, I too saw them as protectors of the environment (leftovers from a bad television commercial with a tear in his eye), victims of injustice, then I got a taste of reality. I was taught hate by the natives I worked with. Thank you for your great insight.

“they will take better care of the land and environment than we did.”

Do you know how to spot a native home on the rez? No? Well let me clue you in. You drive around till you see a tar paper shack with 12 cars out front on blocks and one with tires on it. There will be a dog chained to a dead tree and tore open trash bags everywhere with garbage blowing all over the yard. That’s reality. They just built a new housing complex across the road from where I used to live. I was thrilled when I saw the new roads being built thinking there would be nice houses going up and it would be a nice neighborhood. Boy howdy was I ever delusional. They moved in old beat up trailer houses. They built a slum. One trailer was even burned out before they moved it in. What the hell are you going to do with a burned out trailer? Do you know why so many tribes were nomadic? They didn’t have sewer systems, it started to get kinda ripe so they moved. Could you imagine 260,000,000 people with no sewer systems, where you going to move to? Reality sucks doesn’t it.

“the ‘original sin' was ours”

I guess you are in denial of all the genocides that happened here preceding “the white mans” coming. You apparently believe the same natives have occupied this same land for all eternity. You need an education, you are a holocaust denier.
  by: Valkyrie123     12/21/2007 02:56 PM     
what i meant to say is that they should be cut off from the power grid. Also they need to step into the 21st century, no more hunting whales, especially with .50 cal. riffles. No more fishing with nets.

And like Valk said they have no respect for there land, I can tell immediately when I have entered the res.

It goes from decent homes to shacks with sh!t and filth everywhere. 30 cars parked out side, all of which have already leaked every fluid on the dirt below. I can’t even imagine what the inside looks like.

It reminds me of the movie Snatch, when they go Tommy and Turkish go to the gypsies for a trailer. That’s what the Res. looks like except the people are a lot meaner and more intoxicated. Thank god there vehicles are so dilapidated and don’t run, other wise I would be scared to drive through.
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 03:56 PM     
In Snatch the gypsies are nicer than they are in reality... =/
  by: edya   12/21/2007 04:50 PM     
  nice good???  
I think yes, but the Native Americans are not the same people. They have lost so much of their culture that this is them starting over. Yes there are a lot of bad things about them now and days, but there is a reason why it is. They are not bad people, they just have had a hard life and it shows through them.

I don't know whats going to come of this, but this is a good start???
  by: Vhan     12/21/2007 05:51 PM     
I am sure they are, but I have never been around British gypsies so I don’t know.

I am just curious from all of the people here, how many actually live near a Res. or actually on one? I asked Emceay but he has not responded yet.
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 06:02 PM     
Hate for non-whites is never more apparent then when someone post a story on here. Anytime its <insert ethnicity> vs. Whites, there is almost always a huge downing of whatever race has taken a stand against the whites. Now I am all for ethnic and racial pride but this is crazy. It seems the first thing many of you want to do is start in with the 'they are savages' type thing or how incredibley stupid or worthless that race is. That sort of thinking is that of a Supremecist. I like reading the stories on this site and enjoy many your comments and opinions here, some I agree with some I don't but still genuine thought provokers. Maybe will have to scale back on my news from here or just stop reading the post I don't know.

Lastly @Valk
Please stop. Damn near EVERY story like this you go into this whole 'where I live thing' and start citing examples by comparing where you live with the articles like these. If it is not blacks or muslims its always some other ethnic group that causes rampant destruction and crime where you live. If things are that bad for you there then move it is that simple. if being around other racial and social groups besides whites bugs you that much then leave. I live in the SF Bay Area and lived in the greater L.A. here in CA all my life. This state has without a great inter-racial community, a huge population and sadly a crime rate that beats out most of the country but I dont hold any one group responsible. Not saying it's just you but sometimes you gotta let it rest.

Off my soapbox now.
Merry Christmas All
  by: truhawg   12/21/2007 06:13 PM     
I guess you would rather hear speculation from sympathetic ignorant people that have no first hand experience? Yea, it is much nicer to read and much less painful than the truth. Ignorance is bliss. Crawl back into your closet, its safer there.

We don’t have many blacks or Muslims up here so I don’t know where you got that idea. This is known as “the great White North” for a reason, and it ain’t snow. I fail to see where you are disagreeing with my decision to support the Lokota Nation. I am all for this new social experiment. The reservation experiment failed miserably. I have never said all the problems up here are caused by a certain minority. I have stated that this social experiment is a complete failure and cited numerous events to support my point of view. As the Network Administrator for the tribe I saw everything, absolutely everything. I am not the one talking outta my ass. Just the facts. If you would like I would be happy to include links to articles like this one ( yea its real, to back up my claims. Do you have anything real to add? Or are you just whining because the truth hurts and is ugly? I believe the truth hurts and is ugly and I am willing to change the status quo and try something else and stop the killing. Do you also support the failed war in Iraq? I want to change this failed experiment and try something new, anything new, and a plan by those oppressed for those oppressed where they take full control of their destiny sound like it deserves a shot. All it can do is succeed or fail. If it succeeds great, that’s a load off my taxes, the crime rate and my conscious (I’m no longer the heavy), if it fails, try another plan and keep trying till something succeeds. Is that not acceptable to you? Do you want this entire race to destroy itself? You sir sound like a barbarian.
  by: Valkyrie123     12/21/2007 06:36 PM     
hmmm..... Let's see where to begin?? Childish attacks... name calling... anger...overly aggressive...nevermind the fact I didnt even address your position on the Lakotas(guessing you didnt notice that)...taking everything written in the news as law and restating as concrete evidence(Works for Fox News).....baseless accusations and my personal favorite going off topic with the war.

Quote- "This is known as “the great White North” for a reason, and it ain’t snow."

Now that was my original point. Thank you for completely securing everything I had written. Glad to know I was not wrong about it.
  by: truhawg   12/21/2007 07:14 PM     
I still don't see anything real in your post. Do you actually have anything to add to the conversation? Any points, links, information, anything??? I would love to debate you on this subject but you refuse to take a stand or make a point on anything. I can only assume that you agree that the Lokota should have their own nation, yes or no? Don't be afraid, I don't bite, unless you request it. I can take it. I'm just describing life/death in the middle of a social experiment gone horribly wrong. Maybe it's better that you not hear if it upsets you. I too wish I could just turn it off and it would all go away. I'm actually not as cold and heartless as you might think. I'm just tired of driving around bodies in the street and dodging bullets. I seriously want to know if you have a better idea? I'm all ears...

Oh, happy Yule to everyone.
  by: valkyrie123     12/21/2007 07:39 PM     
@Valk you win. Congrats. I give up. Either you didnt read what I wrote or simply do not understand it. Either way *Cheers*
  by: truhawg   12/21/2007 08:00 PM     
  Thank you Tru but no thank you.  
I don't feel I've won anything. I'm still sitting in the middle of a war zone with no change in sight. Still dodging bullets, still driving around bodies in the street. The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice.

It really sucks when "the bad guys" take the same stand you do but for opposite reasons. Call it a conundrum, dysphoria or bi-partisanship, I feel your pain.

I like you Tru but you need to take a stand and back it up with something. This topic is easy for me because I have been living in this war zone for 10+ years. I'm not happy about it and I would love to see major change implemented. Those in power on the tribal council don't want change because they are getting rich off the system.

PS: I didn't make up the "Great White North" slogan. I didn't make all the white people move up here, they were here long before I got here. Minnesota was not a slave state so no Blacks were imported to do all the labor. Blacks seem to not like -65F temps so they don't move up here or leave shortly after arriving. I have no control over that either. It's just the way it is. I'm only responsible for one old white woman living here, me. It ain't my parade.

You have a great day hon, I'll try not to get shot, my daily goal. Welcome to my world.
  by: valkyrie123     12/21/2007 08:26 PM     
  indicative of our times  
Interesting to me is that Valk and sympathizers may see truhawg's 'conceding' and other's silence appropriate due to having nothing intelligent to say. If you disagree, you must be some sort of blind ignoramus who can't face the truth. It's indicative of our times, and if that's the way we're going to deal with one another, Valk is correct, and the Native Americans (and the like) don't stand a chance. I
  by: crosimoto     12/21/2007 08:36 PM     
Sorry snowman, I lost interest in being misunderstood by you, and I'd rather not add more powder to that keg.
  by: emceay   12/21/2007 08:38 PM     
  oops...didn't finish  
I'm just glad folks are talking. I don't mind that we may feel strongly in opposite directions, it doesn't make me the bad or the good guy. Just human.
  by: crosimoto     12/21/2007 08:40 PM     
somehow, pointing out that natives slaughtered each other in the age before men with smallpox and gunpowder arrived kind of pales in comparison. Especially when you factor in that they were originally enslaved, then literally decimated, and henceforth until recent years discriminated against. I'm not saying their ways, which you clearly aren't fond of are right, but I can certainly understand why they may be poor and spiteful. Whether or not they get their own land isn't really my concern. I'm mostly taking up issue with your seething rage obviously focused on a specific ethnic group :)
I know some of em did you wrong, but it's kinda f***ed up to condemn them all. Especially when the surrounding community no doubt plays a part in their development. Perhaps it's for the best that they get their own land so that it can stop being perceived as your problem and not a mutual burden.
  by: emceay   12/21/2007 08:56 PM     
Also, you've been latching on to the last sentence of my statements and not actually looking at the substance of what I've said. Truhawg has some truth in his words, and when he's talking about your comments there's not much more proof that he needs other than a scrollbar. But, none of that has any credence because he can't back up his other facts? You aren't acknowledging other social factors that lead to things like slums and crimes, especially in context of a particular ethnic group. And your method of debate leaves more than just myself questioning your true values. But that's okay. If you putting a wall around Lakota Country makes you and them happy then that's the end of the story. If you're truly an old woman, than there's not much to be done to change your viewpoint anyway besides waiting for you and your antiquated mindset to shuffle off of this plane.
  by: emceay   12/21/2007 09:10 PM     
I am not making these things up, it’s not like I sit here and think of ways to anger people on the interweb, I was simply stating things that I have witnessed. These are not stereotypes.
I will assume you don’t live anywhere near natives that’s why you won’t answer the question. I don’t know about all natives around the country but at least the once in the PNW I know about. And what Valk is saying is very similar to my experience here.
Yes European settlers did horrible things to the natives I am not hiding the fact. The point is that they have had a long time to straight up and they have not.

I am with Valk let them have there own country and cut them of from the US gov. maybe once they actually have
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 09:14 PM     
will appreciate what they have.
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 09:17 PM     
  you realy need an edit button here  

maybe once that happens they will appreciate what they have
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 09:20 PM     
No, i don't live there, and i haven't answered because you'll use it to distract from what I was really saying. And that is "The point is that they have had a long time to straight up and they have not." is not solely their responsibility. America is really good at creating problems and then denying the cause. This situation has a lot of loopholes because the land has changed hands again and again. But i hear this overarching logic from everyone here that minority crime and poverty is their own fault, while never acknowledging that minorities have had equal access to education, healthcare, jobs, and other factors in social improvement for only the most recent decades, and even to this day disparities still exist and yet the finger is always shaken as people ask "why can't you stand though we keep kicking you?"
  by: emceay   12/21/2007 09:26 PM     
I am not going to use were you live to further my points.
It sounds to me like you are lumping all minorities into one group.
Natives get free education and have a lot of options. The gov. gives them money, the tribe gives them money. The once that do leave the tribe, from what I have noticed, seem to further them selves. I believe the large majority of natives are perfectly fine sitting on there ass and not doing a dam thing. And why should they after all they get everything handed to them. I have no problem with people who try and achieve something, it’s the lazy ones (this applies too all races) that I don’t like.

And that is why I feel if they do get to govern themselves and are cut off from the US gov. that they will be able to succeed.

And what do you suggest is done? Throwing money at them obviously has not done a dam thing. Should we just stay the course and hope the problem goes away.

Yah decades, more like 60 years, and not much has improved if anything at all. Your making sound like the natives have only been given hand outs since the 80’s. Oh they do get to run casinos and sell fireworks that has to be worth something I suppose. Not to mention that they get to hunt whales and use nets to catch fish.
  by: snowman47   12/21/2007 10:29 PM     
  Ok Valk  
Now I gotta respond.

1st- Your quote "I'm still sitting in the middle of a war zone with no change in sight. Still dodging bullets, still driving around bodies in the street."

Are you f**king serious?!?!? 1st off I have been to MN serveral times in the last 2 years and will tell you that I have never felt safer with the exception of UT than there. You make it seem like Lebanon or something. Please give me a break your crime stats for last alone were only 125 murders for the ENTIRE state. Since you like links here you go.
Now compare that with my hometown of San Jose, CA there are 125 murders just this year alone... 1 city but here is the CA state crime link for you.

You living in a war zone!?!? Thats a laugh.

2nd - My original point had nothing to do with the succession of the Lakota at all. It had to do with a general bigotry that usually exist on this forum whenever it comes to an ethnic group vs whites. Once again if you want proof click any link on this site that is a story based on race. This is not an opinion its pure facts backed up by the people on these postings.

3rd- your quote "Blacks seem to not like -65F temps so they don't move up here or leave shortly after arriving."

Wow and you say I have no proof of bigotry and bias based on race huh? You spit out the very truth I was clearly stating. Blacks dont like cold weather huh? I guess they didnt get that memo in Chicago, New York, Detroit, Milwaukee or in Minneapolis. Oh yes there are blacks there and quite a few of them from what I saw first hand being there but of course what do I know you are the expert right?

4th - You want me to take a stand on the Lakota. Fine here it is. I agree with them suceeding 100% and wish them the best of luck. It will be a difficult change and more than likely fought by the government but thats what they do. I hope it does work so that CA can follow suit.
  by: truhawg   12/21/2007 10:56 PM     
  @Truhawg…you do care  
1. We have a very small town up here hon, 800 people. You get to know most of them very quickly. 8 were murdered in a year. 1% do the math. San Jose has nearly 1 million people. You had about 1 in 8000 people murdered in your town. That’s about 0.0125%. Did you even know any of the people murdered? I did. You ever visit a rez in northern MN? Most of the businesses close at 2pm because the gang bangers start running the streets about 3pm. Oh, more ugly facts
They won’t banish this member of the tribe because those in power are complicit. You don’t bite the hand that feed you. The corruption here is off the scale, everyone has their hand in the till. This is the way of life and death on the rez.

2. So everyone on this channel is a bigot? Isn’t that sort of a bigoted thing to say? Almost like a double negative. Am I supposed to thank you, I’m cornfused? Why do you keep trying to make this a racial thing? It a social thing. An experiment gone wrong, a government F up. And it needs fixed. I don’t like what has happened on the rez and what has become of the native community here, no one does. How are we going to fix it? Bury your race card.

3. Sad you can’t give up the racism. It’s a social experiment that has been inflicted on an entire race of people and it messed them up. Try to focus. Stop the trolling. It’s beneath you. It ain’t about me. It’s about a disaster involving over a million people and they are dying, this society is imploding on itself and all you can do is bitch about an old lady living in the woods. Shame. Ask the blacks why they don’t live up here.

4. Thank you. I’m glad you agree. Kind of makes you feel dirty doesn’t it. I’m sorry if I have cheapened it for you, turned your mountain of piety into a molehill of mediocrity. Come on up and I’ll take you fishing, maybe we can brainstorm a way out of this mess. For the moment I’m all for Russell Means solution. Give it a chance.
  by: valkyrie123     12/22/2007 01:06 AM     
  Fishing sounds great  
I'll bring the nets.....D'Oh!!!
  by: crosimoto     12/22/2007 01:11 AM     
  C minus Valk  
Your response actually deserves a D but will be generous and give a c minus. A for effort though.

1. My math is just fine. a 1% death rate is still not as bad as you make. While any death is not a great thing. You are still not making a convincing argument for this war zone of yours.

2. Can you please point to where I had said that everyone on here is a bigot please? Reason I ask you to is because that is not what I said. Should maybe reread it again.

3. What?!?!??? Ok now you got me really confused you keep talking about this social experiment and as far as I can tell that has NOTHING to do with what my #3 listing is about. Oh and as for the race card. I dont use it never have never will. I merely point out that you were making a statement in regards to blacks and cold weather and not wanting to live there. So as far as I can tell you did nothing to rebut what I stated. Nice try on the two-step. Should consider politics with a response like that.

4. Finally I am not sure what you are agreeing with. In one sentence it seems like your condeming the Lakota and the next you want them to be isolated. I dont wish that for them. Maybe I am not reading your statement correctly. If we agree and its not as bad as I think fine. As for piety I never perpetuate myself in that light but thanks for considering me. Well I am gone til Monday have a good weekend.

Ps... I love fishing... hope we dont need bullet-proof vest to do it.
  by: truhawg   12/22/2007 03:10 AM     
  D minus Tru  
You failed to make any real points, added no real information or content to the discussion and only after extreme goading did you finally almost take a stand on the subject at hand. You tried multiple diversionary tactics to get the discussion off the Lokota wishes to whine about an old lady in the woods and why she’s a b!tch. That is sad. Keep trying hon, with practice you will get good at this and actually have something of interest to add to the conversation.

1. I guess when you have 8 murdered bodies within 3 miles of your home in a year it doesn’t mean much. I’ll let my neighbor know, I’m sure he’ll appreciate it, he really misses his wife. How many murders have you had in your neighborhood in the last year, how many friends have you lost?

2. “It had to do with a general bigotry that usually exist on this forum”

I guess we are all generally bigots.

3. I refuse to let you divert this discussion from an important topic to something as worthless as me. I’m fine, this rez is a nightmare.

4. I’m glad I didn’t cheapen it for you.

No need for bullet proof vest, I stay far enough from shore. You do need bullet proof gloves, the fish are 50” long, weigh over 40 lbs and have razor sharp 1” teeth. Got too old and decrepit to rock climb so I had to find a new adrenalin rush, Muskies on light tackle.

Off to celebrate Yule, Happy long night everyone.
  by: valkyrie123     12/22/2007 04:10 AM     
I've never had any experience of the Native Americans but certainly in Australia there is the same sort of attitude that is displayed by a lot of people on here. What happens over there is that they don't treat the natives with respect, openly discriminate against them, rape their culture, don't give them jobs and then complain that they're a cause of crime. Well what the hell do they expect. People seem to have the attitude on here that just because they're Native Americans they're pre-determined criminals and locking them all up would do the country a favour. There's certainly a more indepth answer as to why these people often get into crime, but I suppose that's not as easy to answer as simply saying "they all steal cars and kill people, lets get rid of them". Just remember that it's much more a Native American's country than it is yours. Plus, you haven't exactly given them much respect in the past. It's strange how slavery and anti-black comments are seen as absolutely disgraceful now, but it seems totally fine to blame Native Americans for America's problems and not give a crap about their past.
  by: barryriley   12/22/2007 05:42 PM     
  I like how  
people in this thread are saying things like "don't give them power" and "build a wall around them" even though there are plenty of countries that share infrastructure with neighbours and allow free movement from one country to another without a fuss.

I doubt that the Lakota will have any problem paying for what they need if they allow US citizens into their country for casino visits. What is the US going to do, embargo them out of spite?
  by: Fratley   12/22/2007 06:02 PM     
"I guess you are in denial of all the genocides that happened here preceding “the white mans” coming." "You need an education, you are a holocaust denier."


I am looking for an education. Please eloborate.
  by: pathfinder   12/22/2007 09:09 PM     
Am I just being oversensitive when someone shows up and assesses a post as 'uninteresting' simply because they have some sort of chip on their shoulder?
I just want to understand...if it stands, it stands.
  by: crosimoto     12/22/2007 10:10 PM     
As a general rule, we remove all 'uninteresting' assessments.
  by: caution2     12/22/2007 11:47 PM     
Here I am sitting behind my computer on the other side of the world in Serbia , Belgrade (the country that was bombarded few years ago by American government for "making the genocide" over the minority on our territory who claimed our ancestral land) and I can't believe what I'm reading as your comments! I'm not Native Indian by blood, only by heart! What do I know about natives you ask? Well when I was 7 years old I wrote a petition to Regan, signed by all children from school (some 300 of them)to release all Natives from reservation and to give them back their free spirit and great way of life that's in harmony with nature!I DID THAT WITH THE FIRE IN MY HEART ! Until I was 10 I had a list of 470 tribes that I collected where ever and how ever I could! THAT WAS WITH A FIRE IN MY HEART! I cried for injustice that was done on you for all my life, often feeling ashamed for being white, but with my hands tied to do anything to help!! WITH A FIRE IN MY HEART! Later I started to learn Navajo trough internet and to listen your music every day to feel strong and close to Mother Earth! AND WITH FIRE IN MY HEART!! And now came the day that made MY dreams come true - LAKOTA's are fighting for freedom with fire in their hearts and YOU people of the same blood are you truly Native Indians? When did you raise your voice, when did YOU stand proud for your beliefs, when did YOU fight last time? And you call yourself warriors? THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING YOU!!!!! UNITE WITH LAKOTA AND CLAIM WHAT'S YOURS and f*** the American government finally for yourself , your children, your ancestors and the rest of the world who's genocides by USA! WE ARE WITH YOU WITH THE FIRE IN OUR HEARTS!!!!!! Love you all Jovana from Belgrade
  by: jovana   12/23/2007 12:08 AM     
  I understand that this is a sensitive subject...  
...but the name-calling and cheap shots have to stop.

I'd love to actually discuss ramifications and possible outcomes, but have decided that I can do neither here with the trumpeting that has been going on. I thought much better of you all, but I guess not.

When the thread calms down, I may come back to it.
  by: vanillaskye   12/23/2007 06:46 PM     
  Who Cares  
I don't care about what happened in the past. This story is based on the past but we need to look at it in the present.
As I see it:
Just as with both Mexico and Canada we will now need to put border guards around the area. We will need to put customs on the roads leading in and out. Since they are small enough we should be able to build a fence around them so that they do not come into the country without a passport, just like with every other country.
What is so hard about understanding this? If they want to be a country then let them. We broke the treaties according to them. If it's true then yeah, they should get their country. Wall them off and treat them exactly like any other country. Tax their imports and exports. Make them get visas and passports. Stop giving them money.
What export do they have? Can they make money for themselves? I doubt it. If they can then cool. If they can't then the World Bank will soon own them, which means we own them. They are basically shooting themselves in the foot, actually both feet, both arms, and their head just for good measure.
On the other hand, if what they say is not true, if we haven't broken the treaties, then we should treat them just like any other large group of people that tries to secede from the United States.
  by: qwerty017   12/24/2007 10:26 AM     
  If qwerty's right  
what happens to those states? If they cease to exist as part of the U.S. I guess the new country, Lakota, will have a few small ways of making a few bucks: permission for U.S. airplanes to fly over their air space, trade route to/from Canada. Heck, if they end up being a third world country in our own back yard....what then, You can say how much "they'll suck trying to make a go of it on their own" but what they do will have some affect on us.
  by: crosimoto     12/25/2007 01:01 AM     
  reply to qwerty017  
Oh, qwerty017! You really didn’t learn history! And you are the exact example of why history is important! You see in order to make correct opinion on something and right decisions you need to know the truth! You don’t even know if white people had broke the treaties!!!!
How can you judge someone’s action if you don’t know what are you talking about? It’s obvious that you don’t care! Then just please care enough to learn the truth before you made up some fiction scenario on how the future will be! Nobody wants to hear about the future from someone who don’t know past well enough to judge the present actions!
Just imagine one thing : How big would that fence of yours be if all Native tribes unite?
  by: jovana   12/26/2007 12:24 PM     
  reply to CROSIMOTO  
Crosimoto, isn’t it? You are right about one thing – it will affect us all! The same question for you : How big would be the territory if all Native tribes unite? Then maybe you would be tenants in their home! As it should have happened in the first place!
Do you people only worry about money? Believe me it’s even better to live in the third world country then to be, not a second but , last grade citizen in a big country! At least there you can keep your soul, identity and traditional ways without restrictions ! I say GO LAKOTA’S!!!
  by: jovana   12/26/2007 12:26 PM     
I'm 'assuming' that either you just have deep feelings for the topic, or it could be that you didn't want to actually read through 90 some-odd posts to see what my position was and figured it must be 'summed' up in my last post. Check it out. We may not be on the same page, but it's definetly the same chapter of the same book. My last comment was directed at the banter between posters about the good and/or bad of the Lakotas establishing their own country. no exclamations needed.
  by: crosimoto     12/26/2007 12:38 PM     
  to crosimoto  
Dear crosimoto, you are right about both things I do have deep feelings for the topic and it's true that I didn't read all your messages, I apologize! It's also so good to know that there are people here who are willing to think without prejudice!I'm a new member on few sites since Lakota's trying to change things, for I wanted to support their battle as much as I can! I've read the sentence on your profile I liked very much, bravo for great choice: Those who have changed the universe have never done it by changing officials, but always by inspiring the people.’ Napoleon Bonaparte That is exactly what I think this forum should do to inspire people to do right things together! Thanks!
  by: jovana   12/26/2007 01:50 PM     
Welcome Aboard!
You'll have a great time. There's never a shortage of posters willing to sink their teeth in to a 'knock down, drag out' issue here at SN! Make sure you've done your homework, there are a few smarties out here.
  by: crosimoto     12/26/2007 02:11 PM     
"How big would be the territory if all Native tribes unite?"

225,000 km^2, 2.3% of the US.

Unfortunately the vast majority of this land is in the ass-end of nowhere and is resource poor, much of it is largely uninhabited and most of it would uninhabitable without help from the outside (i.e. the US local, state and federal governments).

"Do you people only worry about money?"

No, but if all of the Tribes were to unite and declare total sovereignty, what do you expect to happen? If help from the outside stops going in, what do you suppose will happen to those that stay on the reservation? I'll give you a hint -- the Four Horsemen pretty much cover it.

The Tribal lands have no industry (other than some with casinos), no means of independently feeding themselves or procuring clean drinking water, no technical resources, no real natural resources to speak of. A whole lot of un-tillable, un-fertilized, un-irrigated dirt, but not much else. How do you propose that this independant nation survive its first winter?

Reservation medical facilities are for the most part in shambles. Where do you suggest the people go when they get sick?

"Believe me it’s even better to live in the third world country then to be, not a second but , last grade citizen in a big country! At least there you can keep your soul, identity and traditional ways without restrictions !"

Big consolation when you are freezing or starving to death whilst succumbing to dysentery, TB, or yellow fever. Those little things that used to kill people by the thousands every year until modern medicine put a stop to it. You know, medicines and supplies that your natives would be unable to access should they cut themselves off.
  by: dedolito     12/26/2007 02:32 PM     
What he means is the tribes should claim ownership of the entire continent of the US, based on prior racial ownership, whilst calling the rest of us racist of course.

Any news on how Lakota is doing?
  by: AnsweringQuestions     12/26/2007 02:40 PM     
Priveet! Better worry about your neighborhood and not the Lakota who will turn their 'nation' into a big casino. Don't you also have money-laundering casinos in Belgrade?

  by: theironboard     12/26/2007 03:00 PM     
  oh that...  
... would be just *swell*

Maybe of the 300-some reservations were all utopian paradises where folks twittered the time away in the pursuit of academic and artistic perfections, sure, hand control over to the natives. Seeing the state of affairs on most reservations? No thanks.

News -- not much. There are 4 members representing the `nation` in DC demanding to be heard. Their only threat is to file liens on contested properties.

This is where it's worth noting that in order them to file such claims in US courts, they would basically have to be US citizens. And if they just renounced all former treaties with the US, they just renounced their citizenship.

  by: dedolito     12/26/2007 03:04 PM     
Actally I did learn history. I am going off of what the article says. It says tat te Lacotas say 33 treaties have been violated but actually says nothing about which treaties or in what way they were violated. I completely agree with you on needing to know the truth but the only facts on the case are this article. ased on this I was right in saying all we have is their side of the story.
Of course I do not know exactly what will happen. I agree with you on that. I am definately not psychic in the least. I am basing what I said on how we treat other countries. We are building a wall across Mexico. We have border guards along both the Mexican and Canadian border. We have customs at both places. We levy taxes and fees on all goods entering or leaving the United States. We now require passports to enter or leave the United States. Nothing I said would be different from how we are already treating other countries that border us.
  by: qwerty017   12/26/2007 03:13 PM     
  Right on  
I say they are right the land belongs to the original inhabitants. but in this case it dosen't even belong to the Lokota...ooops. theis land belonged to the Cheyenne Indians. The Pirates of the Plains kicked them off it Letts give the land to the Cheyenne. Also to all you non-Irish pukes, spedifically the Eglish get the Heck back to your own country. Oh and the Chinese sorry you'll have to leave also yep the Koreans were the first residents. Shall we continue although I live and have worked on the reservation the good people of the reservation need to develope the land they have get jobs and stop relying on government hand outs. You are much better than this. You are intelligent and resourcefull people and can be very hard working you need your pride not handouts.
  by: don42   12/28/2007 08:19 AM     
Good Luck to the Dakota. I guess they're sick of being lumped together with every other race & culture as just one big, featureless mass. About time White people did something to protect their own identity, too.
  by: Ravenspurgh   12/28/2007 05:45 PM     
  Canada too

This is a story of a community in northern British Columbia with similar problems with crime, except they are killing themselves too. This is perhaps more extreme but the issues are the same everywhere: generations and generations of children destroyed by the residential schools and now destroying themselves and those around them, for generations.

There is a hopeful note regarding the youth and the elders coming together. This is also widespread, and focusing on land and traditions.
  by: una1   12/31/2007 07:23 AM     
you talk of living in or near inter-racial communties as a paralell to living near a res. (you do realize the whole point is the natives kept seperate!) I've got two problem with this
one: on the five reserves within 15 min of me I doubt more than 1 in 10 of the residents can claim more than 1/4 indian blood (those damn french, scotts, and in a couple cases koreans)
yet they still demand all their rights as natives (you want too be recognized as native you should at least have to be 1/2)
two: If one tribe or group does it you know another will try
that and notice nothing was said about land ownership (non-natives who have purchase or leased land that was or is res land),or mineral rights

as for thecrime issue i don't think it's the result of oppression I beleive it stems from the fact that all the groups have some who can remember their grandfather or father talking about stealing horses (or women) from a rival tribe (or more liky whites) and how the good old days where more free or whatever nostalgic b.s. they spout.
the noble savage myth has to be put to rest for good (tribes wared, kept slaves, and stole all with out white influence (I don't see whats noble about being cold, hungry, and ignorant))
  by: tapeworm   01/01/2008 03:17 AM     
  I just did a forum post  
on the myth of the noble savage.
  by: AnsweringQuestions     01/02/2008 01:47 PM     
  TO ALL  
I just want to wish you all a happy New Year with hope that it'll bring us more spiritual strenght, peace in our hearts and more justice to all !
  by: jovana   01/02/2008 09:43 PM     
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