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01/09/2008 05:58 AM ID: 67548 Permalink   

U.S. Faked Intellegence to Go to War In Vietnam

 

The Gulf Of Tonkin attacks against American destroyers that secretary of defense Robert McNamara used to justify the the escalation in Vietnam was faked, according to documents in a "mandatory declassification."

The declassification that was requested by the Federation of American Scientists also describes how the United States was tricked into bombing and shelling its own units in the Vietnam war.

The documents said the communists used the U.S. radio nets to call in the strikes against its own personnel.

 
  Source: www.abs-cbnnews.com  
    WebReporter: ichi Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  43 Comments
  
  Boy  
 
Care to draw more parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, anyone?
 
  by: fballer23   01/09/2008 06:16 AM     
  It's all coming out now...  
 
n/t
 
  by: Zmethod     01/09/2008 06:16 AM     
  Sigh  
 
Now the scabs can be ripped open again for the Vietnam Vets. None of it surprises me but I don't see any good coming out of this at this time. They were screwed by their country, treated like crap by it's citizens and more than not have enough issues with that war.

When and if all the Iraq information comes out what will it do for those that served?
 
  by: TaraB     01/09/2008 06:37 AM     
  @Tara  
 
Well, with the exception of the Westboro Baptist Church, I haven't really seen harsh public treatment for returning soldiers from Iraq. It's mostly positive, even if the war is seen as negative. I think everyone learned from Vietnam, even in History classes the treatment of Vietnam Vets is looked down upon now.
 
  by: fballer23   01/09/2008 06:46 AM     
  I think..  
 
And hope, that people will put the blame where it belongs, squarely at the feet of the Commander-in-Chief.
 
  by: StarShadow     01/09/2008 06:58 AM     
  @fballer and Star  
 
I sure hope so on both parts. I do agree that the hostility for our current soldiers is not happening and Westboro Gag I saw a documentary on them which makes me dislike them even more.

And I hope Bush gets everything coming to him and then some.
 
  by: TaraB     01/09/2008 07:23 AM     
  the beauty of American foreign policies  
 
-Lies to its own people to rationalise bogus wars, which are fuelled by its own actions (destabilisation anyone?).
-Supplies the training and armaments being used against itself in those same wars. Hey, somebody needs to profit from war right?
-Takes whatever it can successfully rape from wherever it decides it land.
-Plays by its own rules, because we can.


I hope the american people get a leader that will lead them to years of peace and building bridges with nations it has destroyed. We love the american people, we hate your government.
 
  by: kungfucious   01/09/2008 10:00 AM     
  This all  
 
makes me wonder how the amount of patriotism in America is even possible. One the one hand there are the people quoting "freedom" and "liberty" and how great the US is, then on the other, there's the government, killing them. Same with the UK I guess.

I had a little read on the war and apparently 1.4 million military personnel were killed in it (around 6% of that was US). Civilians deaths are estimated anywhere from 2 to 5.1 million. I think that on it's own is justification to execute the people that faked this information. Then their children, then their grandchildren and so on until no trace of this scum remains on the planet. As a crime, what they did must rate alongside Hitler. There really is evil on earth.
 
  by: Maxx20     01/09/2008 10:44 AM     
  America  
 
I wonder why people call it "The Evil Empire".
 
  by: BlackWidow   01/09/2008 11:51 AM     
  oh come on  
 
None of you knew this?

I cited declassified documents *years ago* in a paper i had to write about the Gulf of Tonkin.

I'm not trying to be snide, but you gotta know your history.
 
  by: jamesmc   01/09/2008 12:14 PM     
  blah blah blah  
 
n/t
 
  by: soshi   01/09/2008 12:22 PM     
  @James  
 
Most people have probably read this or something like it before and just forgotten. It's crazy how such awful things can be made public then just ignored. I think it's born out of the idea that no-one is going to be able to do anything about it even if they wanted to. It's easier (and in many cases safer) to just have a moan about it on an internet news channel and let it go. In 50 years time, maybe someone will de-classify papers on 9/11, Afghan massacres, the Iraq war, little green men from mars, who knows.
 
  by: Maxx20     01/09/2008 12:23 PM     
  @kungfucious  
 
Thank you for putting it that way, that you love the american people but hate our government. You'll find that a lot of americans agree.

We're sick of being lied to
We're sick of being told how to live our lives.
We're sick of the pattern that is just getting worse and worse.
But most of all, I am sick sick of politicians manipulating the people to stand divided, red state vs blue state, by getting us worked up over hot button issues, which seems like a diversion to keep us from noticing how much our economy and our world status is deteriorating.
 
  by: msavelloni   01/09/2008 02:48 PM     
  At last  
 
"U.S. Faked Intellegence To Go To War In Vietnam"

Just the same as Iraq. :)
 
  by: captainJane     01/09/2008 05:56 PM     
  Hello Ichi :o)  
 
Good catch mate! First I have heard of this getting out.
 
  by: captainJane     01/09/2008 05:57 PM     
  captinJane  
 
Thanks, means alot.
 
  by: ichi     01/09/2008 06:19 PM     
  im just glad  
 
things like this dont happen anymore
 
  by: reverend j roach     01/09/2008 06:23 PM     
  Not surprised  
 
And I'm not expecting anything to happen as a result.

Personally, I would rank this up there with the likes of Hitler (As Maxx said). We are constantly reminded of the genocide of Jews in WW2, but the slaughter of millions of Vietnamese civilians, along with military personnel from both sides of the conflict somehow doesn't matter?

None of the large media sources think that all these deaths being caused by nothing more than fake intelligence is news-worthy?

We know that it's fake now. What you need to start asking yourself, America, is why would your leaders possibly want to fake intelligence to go to war?

Again... and again... and again........ and again......................

Britain, we're just as bad.
 
  by: Daniel2508     01/09/2008 07:25 PM     
  ////  
 
As jamesmc has stated, this story has been common knowledge for years.
 
  by: Lurker     01/09/2008 07:32 PM     
  The Ellsberg Papers  
 
Dr. Daniel Elsberg : http://en.wikipedia.org/...

The Papers : http://http:/...

The Best Answers
 
  by: ichi     01/09/2008 08:06 PM     
  Retry Url Pentagon Papers  
   
  by: ichi     01/09/2008 08:08 PM     
  *Cough*  
 
I learned this in my high school history class.
 
  by: edya   01/09/2008 09:54 PM     
  Next  
 
you'll be trying to tell me the sun rises in the East.
 
  by: mcink2   01/10/2008 02:50 AM     
  Funny thing  
 
It's funny because in the bible there are two visions that resemble the US and UK.

In the Bible it's known that beasts and monsters usually represent a government. Like in Daniel it talks about a ram that is knocked out by a he-goat with one horn. The same scripture then says the Ram represents Medo-Persia and the He-Goat was Greece.
Well that same prophecy said thta He-Goat had 1 big horn but when the horn reached it's peak, it fell off and 4 horns were in it's place. Since it says specifically Greece that horn represented Alexander the great and when he was at his peak at a young age he died and his lands were divided into 4 regions by his generals. The prophecy also says that the kingdom would not be as powerful after the first horn fell off.

Very common in Bible prophecy.

Well in Revelation it talks about a monster with 2 Lamb horns. Horns usually represented a rulership. In this case two horns more than likely mean a partnership. US and UK anybody. It says that the beast would speak kindly and seem good but basically it also said would destroy those who did not do what it said or follow it.

Who does that sound like? Interesting. US and the UK both seem to be of high moral standard, promoting democracy and a higher quality of life and liberty. Kind of like a nice lamb. But in the end if you do not comply or get in it's way like the monster it is attached to it will destroy you.

Has this been the case? How does the dual UK/US power act when someone goes contrary to what it wants it to do?

Sounds like that monster in Revelation which incedentally gives power to another beast with 10 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns. Can anyone say UN? US and UK basically give power to the UN but are seperate. Which the book of Revelations says. It says the two horned beast gives power and life to the 10 headed beast.

And if you don't think the US has power of the UN, what has the UN been able to do to stop US from the Iraq war? Absolutely nothing? In fact what nations headed up and gave life to the UN? US/UK !

Rev 13
the other one about alexander can be found in Daniel 8. You know how folks who don't believe in the Bible say it is cryptic and not specific. This one is very specific.
 
  by: shawn1flog   01/10/2008 10:38 PM     
  Treatment of veterans  
 
As a retired veteran who served from 1976 to 1998, I have experienced both good and bad treatment from the citizens of this country, mainly individuals (I ignore the groups). I have been called a "baby killer" even though I never served in Vietnam, and I have been accused of spreading cancer from depleted uranium in Iraq, even though I have never been there. I kept lawless gangs in check in Haiti and patrolled the ZOS (Zone of Seperation) in Bosnia, in addition to duty on the DMZ in Korea and the East/West Border in Germany. But I never killed and baby, and I still take pride in my service. I have even been accused of being a recipient of "corporate Welfare" and a "burden on the taxpayers".

The only sticking point I have is that I find it interesting that the people who look down on me personally are the same ones who criticised both wars. Yet they have never served and I suspect that they ,most likely never would even if we were invaded.

If you just want to hate, it is easy to dream up a reason. I still love this coutry even if I do have a lower opinion of some who live here. I am still prepared to give my life in defense of this coutry, but the more I look around, I see more and more individuals here who are not worth defending.
 
  by: ACRScout   01/10/2008 10:54 PM     
  @Shawn  
 
The Bible is bullshit. Get over it.
 
  by: ETT   01/11/2008 12:22 AM     
  @ETT  
 
okay you may feel that way but disprove that prophecy about Alexander the great and the specifics written 100+ years before Alexander the Great
 
  by: shawn1flog   01/11/2008 12:26 AM     
  Maybe  
 
The Bible may or may not as it is claimed to be by believers, even among the Christian faiths their is a divergence. I happen to believe that the most of the conflicts over it are due to the arrogant stupidity of the readers, claiming to know the truth when they actually "know" very little of what the Bible says. I take it for the most part, at face value. So far when the OT prophesies are compared to history, the Bible has a very good track record, and the NT isn't doing too bad either. If the Bible is false, then what reliance can we put on history texts? Perhaps our education system has been pumping BS all along?
 
  by: ACRScout   01/11/2008 12:44 AM     
  @ETT  
 
Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it.

Look upon it as a guide book then.
 
  by: mcink2   01/11/2008 12:51 AM     
  Another funny thing  
 
It's funny how the Bible says Israel would have such an impact on the world until the last days.

Where do most of the conflicts start from now a days? Middle east. And alot of problems are indirectly or directly linked to the Jewish nation. It's always somewhere in the middle of worldwide affairs. A very small insignificant country indeed.

2nd most mentioned area in the Bible, Babylon and surrounding area aka Iraq!

Coincidence?

I think if the Bible is true we are at close to what hte Bible calls the great tribulation and then Armageddon.

If the bible is not true the fact still remains that we are really about to go nuclear and blow ourselves up. Welcome to the post apocalyptic world in the next 10-20 if not sooner.

Guess we'll find out soon enough. The Earth survived 2 World Wars but can it survive the 3rd? Especially with countries like the US shoving Democracy down people's throats and faking wars like this article implies?

Maybe the Mayaan time table is more accurate 2012 or 2014, something like that.
 
  by: shawn1flog   01/11/2008 12:57 AM     
  Could be...  
 
I was once told that the Bible is...


ready????



Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth
 
  by: ACRScout   01/11/2008 01:09 AM     
  Can't believe I just noticed  
 
"Intelligence" is misspelled in the headline. (I may have just misspelled "misspelled," um, three times.)
 
  by: l´anglais     01/11/2008 07:45 AM     
  @ASRscout & shawn  
 
"Maybe
The Bible may or may not as it is claimed to be by believers, even among the Christian faiths their is a divergence. I happen to believe that the most of the conflicts over it are due to the arrogant stupidity of the readers, claiming to know the truth when they actually "know" very little of what the Bible says. I take it for the most part, at face value. So far when the OT prophesies are compared to history, the Bible has a very good track record, and the NT isn't doing too bad either. If the Bible is false, then what reliance can we put on history texts? Perhaps our education system has been pumping BS all along?"

what has the bible EVER SPECIFICALLY predicted...

war, famine, death, disease are all easy to predict, esspecially as vaguely as the bible "predicts", no timeframe (specifically a date; surely "god" would know...lol), no party specifically named (i could just as easy say the US will attack more middle eastern nations... and if they do i will have made a more accurate prediction than the bible ever has, if i say they'll do it within the next decade and they do i will have been more time specific than any non-historical event (for the time) in the bible... lay out a map say famine, death, plague (disease), war, natural disaster (flood, earthquake, tornado/typhoon/hurricane) ect. and throw a dart in the air wherever the dart lands it will happen... eventually... even the famous nostradomous predictions have been very vague.

and by the way history is lied about and made up constantly, and yes its in our history texts... vietnam and and iraq are a few examples... how about the reichstag fire and 9/11 one was more than 65 years ago and the other was only only a few years ago... yet history is not decisive on either event... the assassination of JFK is yet another... the condition of the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki (japan was already beaten before the bombing) as well of the lead up to it, such as the US provoking japan BEFORE pearl harbor (blocking oil trade to japan or something of the sort concerning oil).


"Where do most of the conflicts start from now a days? Middle east. And alot of problems are indirectly or directly linked to the Jewish nation. It's always somewhere in the middle of worldwide affairs. A very small insignificant country indeed."

except the the US keeps israel as they are today... funding their military war proxy to the middle east... most problems in the middle east are american made esspecially since WW2.

"2nd most mentioned area in the Bible, Babylon and surrounding area aka Iraq!

Coincidence?"

iran/iraq is the present site of the former babylon... but then again israel also use to be called palestine also called palestinia.

"I think if the Bible is true we are at close to what hte Bible calls the great tribulation and then Armageddon.

If the bible is not true the fact still remains that we are really about to go nuclear and blow ourselves up. Welcome to the post apocalyptic world in the next 10-20 if not sooner.

Guess we'll find out soon enough. The Earth survived 2 World Wars but can it survive the 3rd? Especially with countries like the US shoving Democracy down people's throats and faking wars like this article implies?

Maybe the Mayaan time table is more accurate 2012 or 2014, something like that."

no offense but you mayan knowledge is supremely ignorant... it refers to the calender role over... not the end of time.... mayans were VERY astrologically aware... same too with egyptians... and aztecs... some beleive they are all related... these are 3 civilizations that all governed by astrology, including through religion, the mayans had a calander that measure shifts in the galactic plane, what astrogical sign governs us... as of 2012 we begin going into the next age (governing astrological sign; aquiarius) which doesn't yet start for more than 100 year, up to another nearly 500 years... our modern understanding is more primative oxymoronically than that of an ancient culture.

personally i belief the bible is BS but then again i have no belief in "god(s)" regardless of what ill-conceived religion they belong to... the bible is esspecially crude and quite possibly the most heavily plagarized religion in the history of mankind... much of it being ripped off of religion based out of eygpt that have been plagarized by most every major religion.

the story of "jesus" for instance is as near as modern knowledge goes based on the mythos of hoarse (born to a virgin; virgin meaning virgo, the zodiac sign representing virgin, 12 signs follow hoarse the 12 zodiac signs), hoarse was also the "son of god" or mor litterally the "sun god", also died on the cross for 3 days (20-22 or 21-23
every year...lol) the cross is a astrogical referance which during those days the sun does not rise above and so the sun is dead for 3 days... only to be reborn again after which every day hoarse (the sun) becomes stronger (hotter, brigh
 
  by: havoc666     01/13/2008 12:01 AM     
  @ASRscout & shawn (part 2)  
 
the story of "jesus" for instance is as near as modern knowledge goes based on the mythos of hoarse (born to a virgin; virgin meaning virgo, the zodiac sign representing virgin, 12 signs follow hoarse the 12 zodiac signs), hoarse was also the "son of god" or mor litterally the "sun god", also died on the cross for 3 days (20-22 or 21-23
every year...lol) the cross is a astrogical referance which during those days the sun does not rise above and so the sun is dead for 3 days... only to be reborn again after which every day hoarse (the sun) becomes stronger (hotter, brighter) and set (the opposing god of darkness) loses its dominance over earth. a more widely known adaption would be that of hercules, (born to a virgin, son the "god of gods"; zeus.

even the ten commandment are practiucally word for word out of th egyptian book of the dead. "i have not killed" from the book of the dead became "thou shalt not kill", " have not stolen" became "thou shalt not steal".

" Could be...
I was once told that the Bible is...


ready????



Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth"

lets hope not... religion has been a plague to earth if we interact with another form of life i think we should be leave the nutty 85% of earth behind... no offense... but i really don't think the average person isn't capable of the level of undersatnding that would be required for inaction... what happens when you find out than life outside of earth doesn't believe in our mythology... are we going to wage war on another planet as we've done to so many countries.
personally i hope we are a very primative form of life... surely there is intelligent life somewhere in the universe... and personally when we find it i'd not like to come of as a primitive by preaching superstition like a caveman trying to teach fire to the others... at one point fire was "god" to mankind... when i think about that, i find it both said and laughable how little we've actually managed to evolved in intellect over many thousands of years... we really are only a few steps out of the caves and trees as a race.
 
  by: havoc666     01/13/2008 12:03 AM     
  @ havoc666  
 
Would you believe, Jesus predictions of signs of the end times?

Jesus predicted that there would be wars and rumors of wars. There would be earth quakes in diverse places. Much like the world we see today around us. Sure you can attribute these to the people of earth merely carrying on business as usual, but you have to admit that his predictions as outlined in Bible have been accurate, regardless of the perceived cause. The Old Testament predicted the story of Jesus life on earth 600 years before it occurred, that one was a prediction that was very specific and totally accurate, even verified by historians of Jesus time and accepted by scholars today. While debate goes on about the supernatural portions of the story, modern historians accept as fact that a man named Jesus did live in the time alluded to in the Bible and that he was a great Jewish teacher and that he was crucified and died. Only the working of his miracles and the Resurrection are questioned by modern science. That it would be questioned is not surprising since the Romans of Jesus day stood to lose all power in the Holy land, if the story were verified, in essence the Romans took steps to ensure in every way they could, to discredit the story of the Bible.

You stated that "religion has been a plague to earth", I submit that religion has not. I further submit that it is mans abuse of religion that is the scourge. I find it actually funny that people who dislike religion so much that they have to regard it as harmful, close their eyes to the facts. People throughout history, have done many things, often violent and oppressive in the name of religion, but have you stopped to check the reality of the situation? Were their action in accordance with the teachings of Jesus? If not then religion is not the problem, the arrogance of man is the problem. The Crusades are a major item in this arena. The Crusaders attacked the nations of the Middle East, and said they were doing it in the name of God, but how many of their actions were in accordance with the teachings of God or Jesus? Virtually none! As I stated earlier, it is the arrogance and stupidity of man, not God or religion that is at fault. What I truly find puzzling about the aggression of many today, against Christianity today especially in my country, is that those who are anti religious speak at length about the hazards of religion, yet those who seek to remove religion and God from the public eye are far more militant in their actions than those who support religion. Compare the number of vocal proponents of Christianity to the number anti religious, who have used the courts to try to remove the religion from public view, even to the point of misquoting the U.S. Constitution to do so. The Constitution has a restriction placed on the government to prevent Congress from establishing a religion, nothing more nothing less, yet the anti religious in America use the courts to try to remove every sign of religion from public view. This constitutes a radical and militant abuse of the court system, by the anti religious. Personally, I could care less, since nothing an anti religious person does will stop me from worshiping God, I merely find it extremely hypocritical when an anti religious person claims that the Church is a hazard to freedom and at the same time that person will attempt to use the courts to infringe on the freedoms of the religious in this country. I suppose in their view, the concept of Justice is actually "Just Us"
 
  by: ACRScout   01/13/2008 02:17 AM     
  @ACRScout  
 
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

- Thomas Jefferson
 
  by: l´anglais     01/13/2008 02:51 AM     
  @l'anglais  
 
Yes, I know that comment very well, among many others that Jefferson made, including his comment to the Danbury Baptist Association, promising that the government would do "Nothing" to interfere with their religious practices. He also made various writings in personal correspondence espousing the idea that every man upon reaching adulthood should be given a government grant to start out life and that upon their death everything they own should revert to the government, thereby ending inherited wealth. Interestingly, neither his quasi socialist plan of grants and reversion to government, nor his so called "Wall" were written into the Constitution. So, while it is apparent that Jefferson had the idea of "separation of church and state" he didn't hold that belief strongly enough to make it law.
 
  by: ACRScout   01/13/2008 03:02 AM     
  Show  
 
show me a reliable source please
 
  by: scarfox   01/14/2008 05:57 AM     
  @havoc  
 
what has the bible EVER SPECIFICALLY predicted...

If you read my post I gave a real big example. It was specific about Alexander. It said the names of the country specifically that would take out the Medo Persians.

There are other things such as saying Babylon the city would be a desolate waste, incidentally Saddam tried to rebuild it only to have his plans thwarted by the invading US in the first Gulf War.

200 years before Cyrus the Mede conquered Babylon it specifically named Cyrus.

So there have been quite a few specifics.


 
  by: shawn1flog   01/14/2008 05:28 PM     
  @Shawn and ACRS  
 
Shawn, the specifics you cite are a lot of guesswork, which is what gives such predictions their power. Given the entire span of humans on this earth, you can surely find several instances where a man has held power and, upon his death, had his lands divided. That it happened in a place that seems to correspond with the predicted geography is certainly not so statistically unlikely that it must be the fulfillment of prophecy. What do I mean by guesswork? Lots of vague, uncertain terms of unproven accuracy applied to fit a theory, as follows (emphasis in caps mine):

"Well in Revelation it talks about a monster with 2 Lamb horns. Horns USUALLY represented a rulership. In this case two horns MORE THAN LIKELY mean a partnership. [MAYBE] US and UK anybody. It says that the beast would speak kindly and seem good but BASICALLY it also said would destroy those who did not do what it said or follow it. [note: a leader speaking sweetly and dealing harshly is absolutely nothing new]

Who does that sound like? Interesting. US and the UK both seem to be...KIND OF LIKE a nice lamb....

SOUNDS LIKE that monster in Revelation which incedentally gives power to another beast with 10 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns. Can anyone say UN? [NOTE: DOES THE UN HAVE 10 MEMBERS, OR ARE THE NUMBERS FUZZY WHEN THEY NEED TO BE?] US and UK BASICALLY give power to the UN but are seperate. Which the book of Revelations says. It says the two horned beast gives power and life to the 10 headed beast."

So many maybes, so much general paraphrasing of passages which were vague from the start. There's nothing in what you cite that hasn't been politics and rulership as usual since before the NT was written. Rulers rise and fall. Their lands are divided. Powerful men give power to lesser councils, and talk softly while carrying a big stick. While it may sound good to you, it's still guesswork in the end to say which leaders, if any, it meant.

ACRS: "People throughout history, have done many things, often violent and oppressive in the name of religion, but have you stopped to check the reality of the situation? Were their action in accordance with the teachings of Jesus?"

They would say so, as their modern equivalents do today. Some would ignore the good done by religion, you seem to give a pass for the bad. People shun Communism for less than the sins of the Christian movement. Maybe religion should be left in the church, where it can do as it will without the power of government? You seem to disagree.

"Compare the number of vocal proponents of Christianity to the number anti religious, who have used the courts to try to remove the religion from public view, even to the point of misquoting the U.S. Constitution to do so."

They've done neither, and as far as being more militant, let's not forget what sort of people were bombing government buildings and abortion clinics in the 90s. No one has "used" the courts, they've ruled on law just as they're supposed to to. No church has been told it cannot put out a nativity scene or display a cross in public. Public offices have been told this, but that's a part of the separation of church and state that, like it or not, has been regarded as a founding principle in this country. There has been no misquoting of the Constitution, but there has been a big push for historical revision by some so as to make it seem so. The Constitution is vague, and our nation has long since determined that Jefferson's wall is to be respected. What was the last liberty you, as a Christian (I presume), have lost to the government?
 
  by: MomentOfClarity     01/17/2008 12:07 AM     
  @moment  
 
I'll give you the guess work behind Revelation but it still sounds like a good fit don't it

but like I said there is more than speculation and guess work. There is specifics given ahead of time

Daniel 8:
5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. 7 I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12 Because of rebellion, the host of the saints [a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

Yeah sounds pretty vague, unspecific and left alot of room for interpretation

Not really look a few verses after that and it tells you specifically in the same chapter starting in vers 20

The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

It specifically mentioned who would take out Medo Persia represented by a 2 horn ram. A dual power government. It also says out of the two horns the smaller would get greater. What does history say about Medo-Persia. The Medes were dominant of the two but later the Persians became the dominant. Then they were taken out by the Greeks specifically mentioned in the Bible. It said that king would then be strong and powerful after taking out the Persians. It then said when it was at it's peak that horn would fall off and then would be split into 4. What does history say? Alexander's empire was divided at first into four major portions: Cassander ruled in Macedon, Lysimachus in Thrace, Seleucus in Mesopotamia and Persia, and Ptolemy I Soter in the Levant and Egypt.
The Bible also said after the horn broke off and formed 4 horns that the rulers afterward of Greece would not be as powerful as the first.

I think it is pretty specific at least in naming who would take out Medo-Persia. The rest seems to fit in quite nicely to history.

Make of it what you will but it is pretty specific at least in that one prophecy.
 
  by: shawn1flog   01/17/2008 12:25 AM     
  a little algebra  
 
Ram = Medo-Persia = A
Horn = Rulership = B
He-Goat = Greece = C

Those are the Constants.

What we know is A beat down C.
C had 1 big horn that broke off at it's peak.

Okay just being silly past this. But the math would work out.





 
  by: shawn1flog   01/17/2008 12:41 AM     
  side note  
 
It's pretty easy to see what the Bible means in so many instances.
We use animal symbolism all the time.

Bull and Bear = Market

Donkey and Elephant = Democrat/Republican

Bald Eagle = USA

We use Mascots as animals all the time.
We know what they stand for because they are in context. Well the Bible is pretty clear what Animals stand for in many instances of prophecy and the like.

Animals either represent a literal animal, a quality and in the context and most cases governments.
 
  by: shawn1flog   01/17/2008 12:50 AM     
 
 
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