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02/22/2008 02:50 PM ID: 68694 Permalink   

UK - Do the Crime but not the Time

 

UK Justice Secretary Jack Straw has appealed today to Magistrates asking they hand out fewer custodial sentences. Current UK Prison populations are already higher than next months projected figures, rekindling concerns over prison overcrowding.

The appeal calls for Magistrates to hand out alternate methods of punishment instead of simply awarding jail time. According to Jack Straw "The probation service has become more effective."

Jack Straw also noted: "We have 350 magistrates courts in England and Wales. If each one ends up sentencing one more extra prisoner a week to jail then we have got the increase we face".

 
  Source: www.thesun.co.uk  
    WebReporter: spacechimp Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  36 Comments
  
  Great  
 
So now you can steal whatever you want and the magistrates are supposed to come up with alternate ways of punishing you. Because as we all know, the probation service has got tonnes better. Just ask Mr Truelove who was killed by a group of youths last month the leader of which had only just got out of prison!!

I hate this country. Some time this year me and the girlfriend and taking a trip to Holland with the end intention of emigrating away from this Criminal Loving, Scrounger Friendly, Insultingly Tax heavy, enemy of any decent person just trying to make a living; cesspit of a f*cking country!!!
 
  by: spacechimp     02/22/2008 03:20 PM     
  simple  
 
release the people in jail that are in for the most minor crimes, like marijuana possession, crimes thats ultimately hurt no-one...

the US, canada and ever other country could do with that advice also.

how many people in the UK are in jail for nothing more than possession of marijuana.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 03:30 PM     
  Class C  
 
Very few I'd imagine since Weed was downgraded to a class C drug. I Dont think they put you away for possession anymore. I could be wrong though :)
 
  by: spacechimp     02/22/2008 03:51 PM     
  Outsource  
 
Why don’t we just outsource the prison system to India or Thailand. You could put as many of the bad guys in jail you wanted. And at a fraction of the cost. Sure the relatives may complain about the conditions and the cost of visiting. But hey no solution is perfect.

Havoc666 I will support your legalisation of marijuana Bill, if I can and amend it to include a 5 year stint in the Bangkok Hilton for anyone caught wearing Burberry.
 
  by: mrploppy   02/22/2008 04:01 PM     
  Posession  
 
I think all the Police can do is confiscate, possession with intent to supply is a different matter though.

I'm at a loss with this country; we're spending £billions on wars and other projects thousands of miles away while back home we can't even lock up criminals anymore. How is that acceptable? Why have the British public not revolted yet? I guess the stupid people just get on with life in the hope that these problems will never affect them, the criminals have a field day and the smart ones leave. How very sad.

I fall into the stupid bracket at the moment. I live in hope that no-one notices me enough to want my wallet or my phone.
 
  by: Maxx20     02/22/2008 04:02 PM     
  @Havoc  
 
Even easier solution is just to pile them in the prison anyway, f*** the huma rights of having a certain amount of space.
While they can physically fit in the prison that is where we should be keeping them.
Removing crimes just because 'people are going to do them anyway' is no way to create a system of law.
 
  by: Anglo_Englishman   02/22/2008 04:09 PM     
  @  
 
I whole-heartedly agree with this.
Don't want the prisons to get uncomfortable now, think of the Criminals!
 
  by: silentrage   02/22/2008 04:11 PM     
  ship them off...  
 
ship them off to the colonies! I hear Australia is good for that kinda thing. :D
 
  by: bane39   02/22/2008 04:27 PM     
  You guys  
 
actually sound like you live in America! We've got the same problems here with the additional problem of illegal immigration. They fill up more than the prisons though, and expect you to learn their language...
 
  by: reehaw     02/22/2008 04:42 PM     
  @Anglo_Englishman  
 
"@Havoc
Even easier solution is just to pile them in the prison anyway, f the huma rights of having a certain amount of space. While they can physically fit in the prison that is where we should be keeping them."

so what make you any different than a human rights violating dictator, aside from your lack of power to do it?

"Removing crimes just because 'people are going to do them anyway' is no way to create a system of law."

how does that have any bearing on what i said... perhaps your not familar with my arguement against drug law.

crimes should however be removed when they exist under false pretences and are unconstitional.

personally i'm for legalizing drugs and removing the "under the influence" scapegoat. especially in the case of weed since it poses less of a danger than coffee grinds or asprin, both of which you can get an any conveinence store. other drugs pose a danger and hence this would put emphansis on personal responsibility over draconian laws.

freedom and liberty only seem to apply when the government agrees with you, are not freedom and liberty the basis of the constitution in the UK.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 04:50 PM     
  @havoc666  
 
"so what make you any different than a human rights violating dictator" - The fact that I would only violate the human rights of criminals. You start with a clean sheet, but when you commit crime you lose your rights, or at least should.

Violating human rights is not necessarily a bad thing if done for the benefit of the masses.

"how does that have any bearing on what i said... perhaps your not familar with my arguement against drug law." - I think I am familiar with your arguements, but the fact remains that drugs (Rightly) are illegal at the moment, and therefore they should be punished. Just because you feel that drugs, or certain drugs should be legal does not make it so, or correct.

"freedom and liberty only seem to apply when the government agrees with you" - I am a huge advocator that this is the way it should be. Freedom and liberty are good ideas, but they need to be enforced with a set of rules. Getting rid of rules just because you do not agree will only lead to anarchy. If you actually get a good government in power enforcing some proper rules then everything works properly.

There is no way things like drugs should be legalised, if you are going down the personal responsibility route then it is completely irresponsible to take any drugs, because they all alter your perception. Some people can probably take cannabis with no issues at all, but there are so many people that just need that little push before they become criminals that I am all for enforcing laws to prevent that.

@reehaw - oh we have the same immigration problem, but because of the EU they are legal, so there is nothing we can do about it.
 
  by: Anglo_Englishman   02/22/2008 05:06 PM     
  @reehaw  
 
"You guys
actually sound like you live in America! We've got the same problems here with the additional problem of illegal immigration. They fill up more than the prisons though, and expect you to learn their language..."

and what states prodominately have these problems... the ones that were what is now know as mexico... its kind of hard for me to take that kind illegal immigration seriously... thats like a native moving off his reserve, that he was forced to live on to maintain his way of life, onto the rest of the land that used to be his.

they also pay taxes which they aren't entitled to receive back, they put billions into the economy for goods, services and accomedations. in all fairness for the most part they are as productive "americans" as other americans are yet they are constantly looked down upon because their country can barely support itself by comparison, and thusly their people are financially desperate and are doing what the original settlers to america did cross into someone elses country (largely without permission) with the intent of forging a better life....

but atleast the mexicans aren't killing and torturing everyone in sight just so that they can do it... so long as they aren't commiting any actual crimes (ones that actually have victims), and so long as they aren't being any less productive then average citizen, i don't much care what illegal immigrants do... personally i can't speak for immigration into the US, but immigration into canada is ridiculas, and apparently our immigration is easier.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 05:20 PM     
  @havoc666  
 
Again you are forgetting about the main reason they should not be there, that being that fact it is illegal.

Just because you see a good reason for it not being illegal does not change anything.

And you can hardly say it is a victimless crime because every job taken by an illegal immigrant is removing a potential job from someone else, removing a potential house, adding extra traffic etc.

They are also removing their skills from their own country, which obviously needs as many people as possible to help get it out of the state it is in.

Running to a better country shouldn't be allowed.
 
  by: Anglo_Englishman   02/22/2008 05:29 PM     
  @havoc666  
 
Aztec's and Mayans and their spanish half breeds (Mexicans). Have NO HISTORICAL LAND IN THE UNITED STATES. NONE. It is not the same as native tribes to the U.S. mexicans are FOREIGN INVADERS, to the U.S. and to the native tribes that reside with it. Historically they were BLOOD ENEMIES. With tribes in the United States. Know your history, or shut up.
 
  by: Tetsuru Uzuki     02/22/2008 06:05 PM     
  @anglo  
 
"Violating human rights is not necessarily a bad thing if done for the benefit of the masses."

well i would expect EVERY dictator to say that as well... so again what seperates you from a dictator like hitler who violated all kinds of human rights in the name the masses; the german people, or like bush who is currently doing this?.. of course whats said and whats meant and happens are completely seperate.

" I think I am familiar with your arguements, but the fact remains that drugs (Rightly) are illegal at the moment, and therefore they should be punished. Just because you feel that drugs, or certain drugs should be legal does not make it so, or correct."

rightly... how are they rightly illegal... i'm calling you out on that bullshit... you give me a good damn reason way weed is illegal killing no-one, while cigarettes and alcohol are legal, killing millions.

there is no logical basis for the law and hence its a useless law... useless laws do no protect society , they CREATE criminals, not catch criminal but litterally making good people crinimals.

so no its not rightly illegal... its falsely illegal because its and unconstitutional law. atleast presuming your constitution is all too different from the US's and canada's both of which have laws against drugs, both of which law's are not constitutionally protected.

"I am a huge advocator that this is the way it should be. Freedom and liberty are good ideas, but they need to be enforced with a set of rules. Getting rid of rules just because you do not agree will only lead to anarchy. If you actually get a good government in power enforcing some proper rules then everything works properly."

but yet you have the problems now of society's laws creating criminals of people who'd only crime is "freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" so to speak.

i'm not saying murder and theft and such should be illegal... those are actual crimes with actual victims.

if i had to choose between anarchy and dictatorship, i choose anarchy... atleast you have freedom in anarchy... although any anarchy is only tempory, something will alway fill the vacuum of power... ultimately some form of government will always arise from anarchy., its possible to have freedom and government, but that would require governments giving up dictatorship in place of freedom, that takes power way from them.

"There is no way things like drugs should be legalised, if you are going down the personal responsibility route then it is completely irresponsible to take any drugs, because they all alter your perception. Some people can probably take cannabis with no issues at all, but there are so many people that just need that little push before they become criminals that I am all for enforcing laws to prevent that."

so many... a severe minority... no offence but 66% of canada isn't criminals yet thats the percentage thet ADMITS to have smoking weed in their lives.

responsible people can used drugs responsible... irresponible people are irresponsible irreguardless of the drug.

blame the people not the drugs... the drugs aren't the problem... they are scapegoat, and your proving why... your taking the responsibility of the crinimal and on the drug... i have never once ever seen a joint rob a 7-11... i have however heard about lots of people getting arrested for robbing a store to get drug money, cigarette money, alcohol money, why... did the drugs make them do it... hell no... they can't make you do anything and they sure as hell ain't coercing you to do them, they are doing it upon their own choice, they have issues because they are irresponsible not because it irresponsible to do drugs...

to show you how retards your line of thought is... take cars, lots of people have accidents, does that mean there should be a law against driving... hell driving kills more people than drugs too.

if i had it my way only responsible drug users would use drugs... i've seen a few F-up's in my day, but only a few by comparision to the rest, i'm going on 8 years of smoking weed, never once have i ever stolen for drugs or committed any crime for drugs, other than actually getting them and using them.

in all honesty of all the people i've smoked with personally, one person was irresponsible on and/or as a result of drugs (jimpson seeds or something it was) and robbed a 7-11, but in all honestly he was stupid even before he used drugs, and was hanging out with theives also... and one other person got excessive paranoia (thought his shadow was another person), but didn't ever do anything irresponsible asa result, nor to get it.

from my experience less than 5% of drug users i know would i call an irresponsible drug users, i would also classify a person as a irresponsible drug user for taking days off work to smoke weed, jepordizing your job is definitately irresponsible.

however, i don't exactly hang around with criminals either. atleast not people who've commited an actual crim
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 06:17 PM     
  @Anglo_Englishman  
 
":Again you are forgetting about the main reason they should not be there, that being that fact it is illegal."

AND HOW DID EVERY NON-NATIVE NORTH AMERICAN GET TO NORTH AMERICA.

"Just because you see a good reason for it not being illegal does not change anything."

of course not, when it comes to law or logic, law it the logical choice (of idoits).

"And you can hardly say it is a victimless crime because every job taken by an illegal immigrant is removing a potential job from someone else, removing a potential house, adding extra traffic etc."

if that was true why weren't american's doing those jobs in the first place... i'm sorry but there are alot of lazy american... infact our society actually ENCOURAGES being lazy, if an american doesn't have a job because they are lazy and a mexican comes by and takes the job... so what, f the lazy ass.

hmmm productive illegal or lazy america... another question of logic... most americans are born into america, they in no way shape of form earned the life they have, they didn't earn their access to decent education, nor clean water or decent food, but rather they were born into it, by the people before them which did EXACTLY what the illegals are doing now... people like the illegal, actually FIGHT for their right to better their lives,

"They are also removing their skills from their own country, which obviously needs as many people as possible to help get it out of the state it is in."

true, however would you for for nothing or close to it when their was a better, easier alternative.

"Running to a better country shouldn't be allowed."

well pack your shit skippy and head back to your motherland. how the f do you think the north and south america came to be. do you think about the think about the things you say or just say them and hope they don't make you sound stupid.

AGAIN about ten states in the US were what is now known as mexico... the land WAS TAKEN FROM THEM before them it was taken from the native like the rest of the US.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 06:33 PM     
  @tetsuru  
 
"Aztec's and Mayans and their spanish half breeds (Mexicans)."

way to be racist, and in such a short time.... goof.

"Have NO HISTORICAL LAND IN THE UNITED STATES. NONE. It is not the same as native tribes to the U.S. mexicans are FOREIGN INVADERS, to the U.S. and to the native tribes that reside with it. Historically they were BLOOD ENEMIES. With tribes in the United States. Know your history, or shut up."

oh so the US and spain didn't have a war... so the US didn't take the spanish land.... ah.

bloodline enemies indeed, but that what their land just as it was the natives before them, and just as the americans call it their now.

of course americans think their ownership now somehow means more theirs did then.

so please take your own advice and shut up, atleast till you know your history.... or don't they teach this shit down in the US.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 06:40 PM     
  @ Anglo & @Havoc  
 
Angle..We are in the same corner for once, believe it?
@Havoc...I think you honestly believe what you just wrote, and that's fine since you live in Canada and don't know what you're talking about. I'm fine with LEGAL immigration btw but we are being inundated here. Not only are they here illegally but they are taxing all of our systems ei: medical, housing, welfare, schools, prisons, you name it. My kids school lost a gifted kids program in favor of the ever present fricking ESL classes. So they're not hurting anyone? "but atleast the mexicans aren't killing and torturing everyone in sight" I know every one is not a criminal but if you look in our local newspapers you will see that 95% of the crimes being committed have latino surnames. Right near here is the little town of Norfolk, Nebraska where five people were MURDERED in a bank robbery attempt, all the perpetrators were Mexican. I work at a college where teachers come to renew their teaching certificates and they are all frustrated with either having to try to teach the kids who don't know the language or HAVING to take an ESL course. The language thing alone puts a huge strain on everyone by having to print and say everything in two languages. And why is it in just TWO languages? Why not Vietnamese and French and Swedish and Norwegian and every language in the world as I'm sure there's some people of every land probably living here? Because there are so frickin many of them. They ARE committing crimes and they ARE less productive...how can you consider getting free medical and food stamps and welfare productive? And yes, people ARE getting hurt.
"personally i can't speak for immigration into the US"...no you can't, so don't. How do you know they pay taxes, have you seen a paystub? Dammit, I'm really busy at work and I keep having to stop to try to see what I've written and what everyone else has written...more later
@Tet...thanks, any help welcome!
 
  by: reehaw     02/22/2008 06:41 PM     
  Well we  
 
have lots of Islands off the coast of Scotland,put them there a few hundred tents and drop the food in by airdrop
problem solved.
 
  by: Jammy-Doger   02/22/2008 06:42 PM     
  @ Admin  
 
When doing assessment, under reason it would be nice to add something like "explosive"
 
  by: reehaw     02/22/2008 07:02 PM     
  @reehaw  
 
""@Havoc...I think you honestly believe what you just wrote, and that's fine since you live in Canada and don't know what you're talking about."

and how don't i know what i'm talking about yell old wise one...lol

and yes i believe it otherwise i have not wrote it.

" I'm fine with LEGAL immigration btw but we are being inundated here."

ah ever wonder if the natives felt that way???...lol

" Not only are they here illegally but they are taxing all of our systems ei: medical, housing, welfare, schools, prisons, you name it. My kids school lost a gifted kids program in favor of the ever present fricking ESL classes. So they're not hurting anyone?"

gifted program... you might want to explain that a wee bit rather... i've seen learning disability programs and behavioral programs go by that label, and in all honesty the ones i've seen i opposed 100%, and most kids are better of in the real school environment. and please don't dare say i don't know shit about that either... i've been through hell and back with the backward ass education program here (and from everything i've heard), and seen (i was living in the US breifly; North Carolina) the US it just a wee bit worse in the public school department, though special programs could be an exception for all i know in the US, however i doubt it.

what is ESL, is ESL without its benifits or did the benifits outweigh the gifted program

i was in a few school that lost "gifted programs" however in losing that class which hold 5-10 people, they now have an extra real school class for about 15-25.

those illegal are also helping prop up your economy while they are taxing all those things... they are paying for those things just like you and just like your kids will be one day

there are alot of useless school programs whose resources could be far better allocated and sometimes that means removing so called gifted programs so that basic education can be provided.

" "but atleast the mexicans aren't killing and torturing everyone in sight" I know every one is not a criminal but if you look in our local newspapers you will see that 95% of the crimes being committed have latino surnames. Right near here is the little town of Norfolk, Nebraska where five people were MURDERED in a bank robbery attempt, all the perpetrators were Mexican."

95% eh! if thats true that says wonders about the bias in you media, but then again accordign to american media the average criminal is always non-white, usually black of mexican depending on what state you live in... its not that latinos are commiting 95% of the crimes, its thats a signifigantly higher percentage of latino crimes are actually being reported on the news. is 95% of your prison population latino?, if not the media is obviously skewing the facts... but thats their MO.

"I work at a college where teachers come to renew their teaching certificates and they are all frustrated with either having to try to teach the kids who don't know the language or HAVING to take an ESL course. The language thing alone puts a huge strain on everyone by having to print and say everything in two languages. And why is it in just TWO languages? Why not Vietnamese and French and Swedish and Norwegian and every language in the world as I'm sure there's some people of every land probably living here?"

lolo oh yes, heaven forbid a teacher has to learn or teach something new... why two languages?/ why those two languages.... well if you haven't figured it out yet you try talking to people, they are the two prodominant languages in your country... just as french and english are here.

"Because there are so frickin many of them. They ARE committing crimes and they ARE less productive...how can you consider getting free medical and food stamps and welfare productive? And yes, people ARE getting hurt."

how is ANY working illegal less productive than a american that sits on his ass employed because he's lazy, or someone abusing welfare etc. simply they aren't they actually ARE contributing to society.

are they commiting more crime (barring the "crime" of entering the country to begin with) than the average american

personally think basic medical care should be free; but then again i live in canada, and its always been that ways here in my lifetime.

anyone abusing welfare isn't productive reguradless of whether they are american or mexican... though it must be quite a bit harder for a illegal to abuse the welfare system being that they aren't citizen, same reason it a bit harder for thm to find good jobs.

as for food stamps... well no-one should go without food... although if you disagree by all means volunteer yourself.


""personally i can't speak for immigration into the US"...no you can't, so don't. How do you know they pay taxes, have you seen a paystub? Dammit, I'm really busy at work and I keep having to stop to try to see what I've written and what everyone else has written...more later"

wow way to
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 07:36 PM     
  @reehaw 2  
 
""personally i can't speak for immigration into the US"...no you can't, so don't. How do you know they pay taxes, have you seen a paystub? Dammit, I'm really busy at work and I keep having to stop to try to see what I've written and what everyone else has written...more later"

wow way to use only a small part of what i said....GOOF

how do i know they pay taxes....BECAUSE THEIR EMPLOYERS TAKE THEM, just as your employers take yours... i haven't seen your paystub either so obviously you don't pay taxes either

they just don't get them back because they not using their real name or addresses and thusly couldn't get them back reguardless

lets not be so ignorant please... i don't have pet peeves but stupidity and ignorance are two of my psychoatic hatreds.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 07:39 PM     
  @tetsuru  
 
Maybe you haven't heard, but from 1846-1848 there was this little thing called the Mexican-American War. Prior to it, much of Texas & Colorado, all of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada & Utah were part of Mexico. As such, your claim that they have "NO HISTORICAL LAND IN THE UNITED STATES" is pretty much baseless.

History is a wonderful thing - it is even better if you know it.
 
  by: Zpravodajec     02/22/2008 08:00 PM     
  @ Zpravodajec  
 
Ask the Apache, Sioux, Adobe, Cherokee, and Cree before you start spouting nonsense. Mexicans are not Spainyards. Mexicans are Mayan/Aztec.
Mexico has no claim. SPAIN IS NOT MEXICO. ITS ANOTHER SOVREIGN COUNTRY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD. Their descendants in the the U.S. *GASP* still live here and are now U.S. Citizens. We have cities named after them, they're Americans. Not Mexicans. I happen to live in the territorial land grant of General Mariano Guadalupe Vallejo of Spain! What your trying to argue is the same as saying tht Filipinos, Brazillians, Panamanians, or any other country that once had a Spanish presence has claims to the United States.
 
  by: Tetsuru Uzuki     02/22/2008 08:09 PM     
  Well Havoc  
 
ya big baby...I can just hear you telling your mommy on me. When cornered resorts to name calling amongst other mature moves. Anyone remember what the topic was? I'm going to forum and starting a new thread, we can all have it out in there.
 
  by: reehaw     02/22/2008 08:19 PM     
  @Tetsuru  
 
Mexico won its independence from Spain in 1821. 27 years later, after losing the Mexican-American war, Mexico ceded about a third of its land to the United States. These are historical facts you can look up for yourself -- large tracts of the American West were once Mexico.
 
  by: l´anglais     02/22/2008 08:23 PM     
  @havoc666  
 
"give me a good damn reason way weed is illegal killing no-one, while cigarettes and alcohol are legal, killing millions."

On the first part the good reason is as I said above that weed is a mind altering drug that makes people do things they would not otherwise do. I do not want this kind of thing in the hands of people who are just inches away from crime anyway. Have you not noticed how most of those who smoke weed are the uneducated scum I hate so much?

As for cigarettes and alcohol I don't think there are good reasons for keeping them legal. Nothing to do with this though.

"so again what seperates you from a dictator like hitler"

Also as I said above (Do you read?) - I would only violate the rights of CRIMINALS who DESERVE to lose their rights. This would actually benefit the law abiding citizens

"if i had to choose between anarchy and dictatorship, i choose anarchy"

I have no idea how any sane person would make that call. Unless you are assuming the dictator is going to persecute you, which is unlikely with what I said. I am quite happy to give up my 'freedom' to get completely off my face with mind altering substances in exchange for a bit of protection from those who do get off their face.

"no offence but 66% of canada isn't criminals yet thats the percentage thet ADMITS to have smoking weed in their lives."

Wrong - those 66% just admit to being criminals but don't care.

"responsible people can used drugs responsible... irresponible people are irresponsible irreguardless of the drug."

I completely disagree, because no responsible person would be happy being completely off their face on a mind altering substance of any kind. With weed, alcohol, crack or whatever you are not totally in control.

"the drugs make them do it... hell no..."

I don't think the drugs did make them do it, but then again guns don't shoot people and I don't think everyone should carry shotguns. The drug use is a symptom of a problem which causes the person to carry out the crime, and also helps prevent the person from actually having a better life. If there were no drugs at all then so many people would be much better off. That guy robbing the 7-11 would never have got hooked, would never have lost his job, would have had an education and not have robbed the 7-11.

"and one other person got excessive paranoia"

And that is a chance you are willing to take or let your kids take? And if it happened to you I assume you would expect the healthcare system to take care of you? That may be ok over there but over here that would mean I as a taxpayer am paying to treat your illness brought on by your drug habit.

I do agree that weed is a less harmful drug than most, but to legalise it would just put it in the hands of far too many irresponsible people, alcohol is destroying many parts of many countries and weed would do similar damage is legalised (Eventually).

"if that was true why weren't american's doing those jobs in the first place... i'm sorry but there are alot of lazy american"

I don't know about the US, but over here we have our fair share of lazy people, but if you removed the immigrants then you could FORCE these to work (IE: No benefits if you don't work in that take-away/ clean that street).

"well pack your shit skippy and head back to your motherland. how the f do you think the north and south america came to be. do you think about the think about the things you say or just say them and hope they don't make you sound stupid."

I haven't got a clue about US history (I'm from England), but I am pretty sure that the US fought for that land, and now it belongs to them. It is not about who used to own it. If the Mexicans went to war with the US and won those states then I would support their right to keep the American's out.

"of course americans think their ownership now somehow means more theirs did then"

Unfortunately it does, the Americans fought for that land and were rewarded (Rightly or wrongly) with control of that land. They can now keep out whoever they so choose.

"they are the two prodominant languages in your country... just as french and english are here"

The whole point of this was that the US is an English speaking country, so that is why they should not have to learn Spanish. Would you go to Germany and expect them to teach you in English?

"as for food stamps... well no-one should go without food... although if you disagree by all means volunteer yourself."

So you volunteer to pay for some of these illegal Mexicans to eat do you? It isn't your taxes paying for those food stamps.

If someone is in a place they should not be then they do not deserve to eat, at least not for free.

"how do i know they pay taxes"

I don't know about the Mexicans but in this country most of those here illegally get paid 'cash in hand' so they actually don't pay tax. They also tend to claim whatever benefits they can get too, our system is so bad that even ille
 
  by: Anglo_Englishman   02/22/2008 08:31 PM     
  "Justice Secretary"  
 
What a complete farce.

There is no justice in the UK anymore. Not for criminals, not for politicians, not for greedy price fixing energy supplies, not for price fixing supermarkets, not for speeding police who consider themselves above the law.

Hard working citizens are being made a complete mockery of. If the state of the country as it is isn't enough for people to demand that this inept, corrupt and disillusioned government must be booted from office immediately, then nothing will be.

I hold no hope for the future of this country and, to compliment the recent "Brain Drain" story here on SN, as soon as my degree is complete I shall leave this cesspit of criminals and liars and find a slightly less full cesspit of criminals and liars.

Because let's face it, the whole western world is going down the pan.

Our politicians are getting greedier whilst the public gets more lazy. It's a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps the only way to avoid it all is to buy a small island in the middle of nowhere and cut yourself off from the idiocy of the rest of the world.

Anyone else want to chip in? We can make a new country. Shortland anyone?
 
  by: Daniel2508     02/22/2008 09:19 PM     
  @Daniel2508  
 
Have you not seen some of the comments on here? Shortland would fall into civil war before we even got off the ship!
 
  by: Anglo_Englishman   02/22/2008 09:33 PM     
  @reehaw  
 
"ya big baby...I can just hear you telling your mommy on me. When cornered resorts to name calling amongst other mature moves. Anyone remember what the topic was? I'm going to forum and starting a new thread, we can all have it out in there."

lol you go to the forum... go play with yourself there while your at it, i get enough of your idoicy here now you want me to go to the forum to read more of it.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 10:05 PM     
  @l'anglais  
 
Thats all fine and dandy until you realize that the native peoples never ceeded ownership to Spain and Mexico. The only treaties they have ever signed regarding land have been with the United States. Mexico only claimed to own the land. They never did, and never had any presence here after their independance from spain. They simply claimed it to be theirs. That in no way makes it so.
 
  by: Tetsuru Uzuki     02/22/2008 10:53 PM     
  @anglo  
 
"On the first part the good reason is as I said above that weed is a mind altering drug that makes people do things they would not otherwise do. I do not want this kind of thing in the hands of people who are just inches away from crime anyway. Have you not noticed how most of those who smoke weed are the uneducated scum I hate so much?"

drugs do not force people to do things they would not otherwise do, they might however increase the chance of doing something they are in conflict about... desperation makes people do things they would not otherwise do.

the average drug user is no closer to crime then you or i.

and no most people that I know that use drugs are fairly educated actually but i hate stupidity and thusly i tend to associate with educated people, in one form or another, an i say that because most people assume schooling and education to be totally synonomous.

"As for cigarettes and alcohol I don't think there are good reasons for keeping them legal. Nothing to do with this though."

actually they are far more deadly AND addictive than all other drugs yet they are legal, while others are not while they are far less socially damaging.


"Also as I said above (Do you read?) - I would only violate the rights of CRIMINALS who DESERVE to lose their rights. This would actually benefit the law abiding citizens"

you must be an idoit, ironic as you speak of hating uneducated scum.... EVERY DICTATOR BELIEVES THAT...

HITLER BELIEVED IN WHAT HE WAS DOING, and the supremacy of germany over all other nations... he BELEIVE he was doing what was best for the german people...

you are no different than any dictator, we shoulld all thank our lucky stars you have no power.


"I have no idea how any sane person would make that call. Unless you are assuming the dictator is going to persecute you, which is unlikely with what I said. I am quite happy to give up my 'freedom' to get completely off my face with mind altering substances in exchange for a bit of protection from those who do get off their face."

but you are giving up something you wouldn't do anyways and expecting everyone else TO DO WHAT YOU BELIEVE

in a word: FACIST

Wrong - those 66% just admit to being criminals but don't care."

you know what **** ***, learn something about WHY LAW EVEN exists...

law exists to protect society, NOT TO DICTATE THEIR LIVES TO THEM, esspecially in any society where freedom and liberty and the basis.

"I completely disagree, because no responsible person would be happy being completely off their face on a mind altering substance of any kind. With weed, alcohol, crack or whatever you are not totally in control.

your a facist, get off your bloody high horse.

i've never done a drug where i was not in complete control, but then again whenever i've done a drug i've not done before i don't go gung-ho, i use them responsibly, my aim is to get high, not lose control.

"I don't think the drugs did make them do it, but then again guns don't shoot people and I don't think everyone should carry shotguns. The drug use is a symptom of a problem which causes the person to carry out the crime, and also helps prevent the person from actually having a better life. If there were no drugs at all then so many people would be much better off. That guy robbing the 7-11 would never have got hooked, would never have lost his job, would have had an education and not have robbed the 7-11."

actually he robbed the 7-11 because he didn't want tot do the drug rehab and somehow thought a 7-11 would have enough money to make his worries go away... ****ing dolt didn't even get any time.

he worked somewhere else, he quit because he was too lazy to take the bus after his 2nd or 3rd week.

like i said he was stupid before the drugs, he was also bipolar, personally people with conditions like that ought to be extra cautious with drugs.

"And that is a chance you are willing to take or let your kids take? And if it happened to you I assume you would expect the healthcare system to take care of you? That may be ok over there but over here that would mean I as a taxpayer am paying to treat your illness brought on by your drug habit."

as a tax payer i pay for all the shit you'd benifit from too... and your kids etc. shall drug users stop paying for the healthcare of non drug users?

"I do agree that weed is a less harmful drug than most, but to legalise it would just put it in the hands of far too many irresponsible people, alcohol is destroying many parts of many countries and weed would do similar damage is legalised (Eventually)."

weed cannot be compared to alcohol, not by lethality, not by addiction... personaly weed should be ignored completely as far as the law goes.

i've not known a single person of whoms life was destroyed by weed.

as for it being in the hands of more people if it was legalised... fat chance... as it stands now any 13 year old with 5 bucks can get weed, how much ea
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 11:08 PM     
  part 2  
 
as for it being in the hands of more people if it was legalised... fat chance... as it stands now any 13 year old with 5 bucks can get weed, how much easier can it get?

"I don't know about the US, but over here we have our fair share of lazy people, but if you removed the immigrants then you could FORCE these to work (IE: No benefits if you don't work in that take-away/ clean that street)."

except forcing people to work is criminal by today's standards. i would never support forcing people to work, but similar their laziness should never result in luxury.

"I haven't got a clue about US history (I'm from England), but I am pretty sure that the US fought for that land, and now it belongs to them."

well my apologies then.

tell that to keiser and hitler they fought for france yet they don't own it.

"It is not about who used to own it. If the Mexicans went to war with the US and won those states then I would support their right to keep the American's out."

if that happened and americans were in the desperate situation many mexicans are then its they whom i would be supporting in trying to better their lives.

if china goes to the moon is the US going to go to war over it too?

"Unfortunately it does, the Americans fought for that land and were rewarded (Rightly or wrongly) with control of that land. They can now keep out whoever they so choose."

that only perception... thats only the peception of those whom hold the land, its nor more valid than any other claim on any other land, just back up with enough force to keep it.

"The whole point of this was that the US is an English speaking country, so that is why they should not have to learn Spanish. Would you go to Germany and expect them to teach you in English?"

the US is also a racist, slave-owning, anti-women country... but those things too changed in time.

no i would not excpet them to teach me english, i would however expect them or some service there to help me learn german through english well enough to understand them if needed.

is communication not a valuable tool?

"So you volunteer to pay for some of these illegal Mexicans to eat do you? It isn't your taxes paying for those food stamps."

if i were american i would be as taxes here pay for that stuff here too

"If someone is in a place they should not be then they do not deserve to eat, at least not for free."

WHERE... the poor house... no-one SHOULD be there.

"I don't know about the Mexicans but in this country most of those here illegally get paid 'cash in hand' so they actually don't pay tax. They also tend to claim whatever benefits they can get too, our system is so bad that even ille "

they do here as well however some try to make themselves appear legitament and thus pay taxes through their employer, not to mention goods and services they pay for and accomedation... all of which go back into the economy, or to the government if that make you feel any better.

even i've done cash under the table work.
 
  by: havoc666     02/22/2008 11:09 PM     
  @havoc  
 
Just hope that you're aware that Shortnews.com is not liable for any form of Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) that you may or may not suffer.
 
  by: Daniel2508     02/22/2008 11:31 PM     
  Ok.......  
 
You guys have some pretty extremist views here.... I dont think i fully agree with any of you...

First of all i can only speak from the experience of my own country (scotland). We have a shitload of immigrants here and day after day i hear people complaining that they're taking our jobs ect, which is true, but i say good on them because the only reason they get them is because we are too lazy to do them ourselves. The fact is that people in country's like this are too comfortable, there is no motivation anymore because everything is provided for you if you cant be arsed working! For gods sake i have worked all the hours i can get for the past two years to try and save some money and theres people living more comfortably than me just because they have no jobs and keep popping out kids! So im all for these people who actually WANT to work to come over here and strengthen our economy, because thats what they're doing. They pump fresh blood into our country, which will just stagnate without them. As proof of this just look at how America's economy has gone since they started restricting all their immigrants.

As for this whole weed debate.... i dont know where to start.
If you had ever experienced weed then you would realise that comitting a crime when stoned is the LAST thing you want to do. Its hard enough just going to the fridge to get some food. I think you'll find that most crimes commited under the influence are alcohol related or at the outside at least a stronger drug than weed is involved (coke, heroin, speed ect).

Just my thought on the subject.
 
  by: ThinkPeople   02/23/2008 02:23 AM     
  @Havoc666  
 
"HITLER BELIEVED IN WHAT HE WAS DOING"

Yes but as I have stated twice now I would only do it to CRIMINALS, who have proven themselves to be criminals by breaking the law. The jews broke no laws, apart from maybe if a 'you must not be jewish' law was passed.

I really don't see your point here, what I am saying is nothing like 'lets persecute everyone I don't like'.

"the average drug user is no closer to crime then you or i."

Canada may be different to over here, but everyone I know that does drugs is on the lower edge of the social scale. They tend to be poorly educated, living in council provided accomodation and paying for their drugs with either government money, funded from my taxes, or through theft.

"they might however increase the chance of doing something they are in conflict about"

A risk I do not think is worth taking.

"in a word: FACIST"

Not really, I would just rather lose a few rights in order to gain a lot more. Do not tell me your life would be ruined without drugs, if so you have problems.

Being prevented from doing drugs is not having your life lived or dictated for you. You are overreacting to what I am saying.

"like i said he was stupid before the drugs"

And a whole lot more stupid after the drugs. You cannot expect someone like that to have the personal responsibility that you rely on to legalise drugs. You would just create armies of stoned idiots.

"shall drug users stop paying for the healthcare of non drug users"

That is beside the point, the point I am making is drug users are causing themselves (Possibly) problems that a non-drug user would not have. Therefore they should have to pay for their increasd risk. Just like obese people should have to pay for their high blood pressue etc.

"it stands now any 13 year old with 5 bucks can get weed, how much easier can it get?"

There are a good many people legitimately put off due to not wanting to break the law. I can understand your thinking that it should be legal, I cannot condone your breaking the law in an attempt to prove it.

"tell that to keiser and hitler they fought for france yet they don't own it."

The difference being that America won, and so do own it.

Most places in the world are not inhabited by their original people any more, so your line of thinking is way off.

"if china goes to the moon is the US going to go to war over it too?"

If Chine claim they own the moon then I would seriously expect as much.

"no i would not excpet them to teach me english, i would however expect them or some service there to help me learn german through english well enough to understand them if needed.
is communication not a valuable tool?"

Yes it is important but if I were a German I would expect you to learn my language before you came over here, or at least pay for your education in German when you did get here.

"even i've done cash under the table work."

Even you, a drug user, I would never have thought.

You see some of us have principles - I would have reported you.

Hope I managed to respond to everything there, you do write a lot.

@ThinkPeople - Oh I am all for immigrants coming in that want to work, I just wish they would do it legally.

I will never condone breaking the law, no matter how much you disagree with that law.
 
  by: Anglo_Englishman   02/23/2008 05:14 PM     
 
 
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