Woman Wakes by Herself After Being Dead so Long Rigor Mortis Had Set in

http://bittenandbound.com/

story shows the good God really exits.

'Cos rigor sets in after a couple of minutes. 'Cos life support was turned off even though the ventilator was left turned on (what was the point of the ventilator without a pulse - the oxygen would be in her lungs but not circulating to the organs). 'Cos doctors were considering giving her ischaemic organs (they hadn't had oxygen for 17 minutes because she had no pulse, so they'd be dead - it takes 3 minutes for heart tissue to become ischaemic in a heart attack!) to another patient. And how did the doctors know her brainwaves had stopped? Had they done a full EEG?

There's a lot this story doesn't say, but it appears implausible as a basic premise and improbable given the facts. Far more likely that someone did same basic tests incorrectly, that someone misinterpretted what was happening or that the machine was lying to people. Certainly more likely than an invisible, imaginary skydaddy performing a miracle!

"I know God has something in store for me, another purpose. I don't know what it is but I'm sure he'll tell me."

If that's not evidence of brain damage caused by a lack of oxygen, I don't know what is :P

I'll let you suffer through a few heart attacks, and then full on death for a little while before sparing you.

You'd think God would have done something beforehand to spare her the pain and torment. But then again, its God, he gets off on this kind of thing.

Jesus (God) was unjustly trialed and crucified. If it's good enough for him, what makes anyone think that the rest of humanity is exepmt from the pain, suffering and death they have actually earned by ignorng God's advice continually??

It's best to take an eternal perspective. Yeah, what happened to her body sucks, but as you will recall the crucified God (Jesus) was dead for a few days. He would have been rotting.

Then he recieved a resurrected body.

God is operating bigger than the minor inconvinience of the moment. Am I downplaying her suffering or anyone elses for that matter? Absolutely not. But Jesus endured what He did and he didn't have to. What would make the God of all creation become a mere human to be mocked and crucified. Foresight. He knew what he was earning (our freedom from being evil amongst other things). The minor troubles of the present are nothing compared to the coming reality, and that's why it's worth any price (being crucified). And I mean that in a self-sacrificial, servanthood way, not in a go and blow up innocent people or anyone for that matter kind of way. God has a servant heart (else we'd all be dead or making bricks in a clay pit).

It simply does not make sense to assess and judge someones character if you havent even met them?? Try meeting God, then you can develop your theology with more accuracy.

Remember, things go wrong because we didn't listen to God. So we're the ones to blame that her fingers got gnarled. God's the one to blame that she gets to enjoy life a bit longer.

that the best thing people can come up with in situations like this is to defame God or should I say 'frame' God. Many seem to have a perfect little picture of God in a frame; what He should and shouldn't do, how He should or shouldn't act and whenever He shows just how much His ways are HIGHER than our ways, those same individuals jump on the bash wagon. I'm glad that this lady has a real sense of when the Bible says "in this life, you will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world." She joins the ranks of Lazarus, Tabitha Eutychus, and many others. Don't hate the prayer, hate the FRAME.

I know, for I have watched the movie constantine. The devil gave her a second chance to screw up so he can get her soul.

My other working theory would be that she never fully ascended and came back to her physical body.

Don't try to argue with the religion. It's more evolved than a cockroach.

But I do agree with you in that religion really has no value in comparison to an actual 'relationship' (like between people) with the living God.

I agree - most likely a misinterpretation of the facts. I won't say either way about God, but I know science. She probably wasn't dead in the first place.

He resurected one of those idiotic believer to make us believe even in God!

Nope. That's a "we don't know so we'll invent an answer" answer.

feels the same way as many here, although he smarter than the lot of you put together. His conclusion on the intricasies found in the human genome: Possibly extraterrestrials from other planets....but DEFINETLY NOT God.

I've come to the conclusion that religion and the provocative nature of debating it leads to more or less, nothing but negative feelings.

If Frank disagrees with Tom on a subject such as stem cell research, he will of course, be it subconciously or full on conciously, be more biased against Tom.

Regardless of how well formulated Frank's argument against Tom is, Tom will never change his views, for he has had these views for as long as he can remember, and feels that changing his views is a form of "backing down," as opposed to what it REALLY is, (being the better man, and improving himself through making observations and THEN coming to conclusions, typically logical and BENEFICIAL conclusions that are HUMANITARIAN in nature).

Let religious people have their views, ultimately, either apocalypse will come and the vast majority of the human population will be sent to Hell, or where ever the "CORRECT" religion's "BENEFICIAL LOVING GOD" has decided we go; or they will eventually die out, as with each coming generation, the number of Atheists/Agnostics grows and grows.

Either this, or their God is a TRULY BENEFICIAL, LOVING God, and everyone lives an eternal happiness, regardless of their MORTAL QUARRELS.


Regardless of the circumstances, the logical minority is ALWAYS powerless in the face of the biased majority. Live and let live.

great find @ caution.

This one gave me goosebumps!

live and let live, as Dekar saysm but it scares me to read the word "God" so many times in the comments.
It's like a barrier that people put up between themselves and the truth we do not yet know.
Good thing most doctors and scientists don't stop there to look for answers.

http://www.adherents.com/

*cough cough*

Most of those scientists mentioned in that site were brought up a certain faith, but did not practice or believe in that faith. Most were deist after growing older and obtaining more critical thinking skills.

"I know The Celestial Teapot has something in store for me, another purpose. I don't know what it is but I'm sure it'll tell me."

See how that works? You can insert any words you like, but it's not going to change reality. Goddidit is never an acceptable answer or else we would still be in fear that ships would fall off the face of the Earth and believing that all the animals we have were within walking distance of Noah's house.

why only most..why not all. There are scientists alive today that are trying to show how the biblical creation account is not diametrically opposed to what we see in evolution...why? I understand where you're coming from though....branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate and the other comet riding here today gone tomorrow religions, but I think there's a bit more than a flying teapot to Christianity. But hey, Dekar waxed eloquent in saying something that has always been true....If you don't believe, all the proof is circumstantial, if you DO believe...that's proof enough.

"If you don't believe, all the proof is circumstantial"

There is one of the believer's major problems. No proof exists for your god or any other.

"There are scientists alive today that are trying to show how the biblical creation account is not diametrically opposed to what we see in evolution...why?"

You might want to drop a few names here and I hope you aren't referring to Ken Ham or Kent Hovind, 2 self-proclaimed "scientists". Most real scientists who are experts in Biology, Paleontology, and Geology agree that no biblical accounts add up in the real world.

you've made your point
and I will continue to believe in Jesus Christ and the Father He spoke of.

....He said there would people like you

Que sera sera

We're not quarreling, we're just testifying.

And many of us who follow Jesus once held exactly the same views as the athiests and argued their arguments against existence of God.

You can't find God with science. Simple as that. Humility is the way to meet God.

When you date a girl, do you expect her to hand over a detailed analysis of everything she enjoys, does, believes, etc or does she want you to put in some effort and make yourself worthy of finding these things out for yourself?

God is not a whore. He does not give himself up to the arrogant and self-righteous who slander his name and mock his existence.

We were made in his image, and as the above example might be able to show you, God is person, and with personality comes relationship.

So our testimony is 'get a relationship with God' and then you will begin to see why we think its worth it enough to testify to it despite the mockery and insults.

Val actually had three heart attacks and no brain activity for 17 hours (not minutes).

this is pretty incredible, but as a deity is the most complicated answer to any question it should be the last thing you believe. Let's do some research rather than fobbing this off to some imaginary friend of yours.

jesus was justifyably put to death, he broke several laws, was given a chance to redeem himself and then brazenly defied the laws again. he was inciting revolt against the governemnt, he was a terrorist.

the main law he broke which in the ancient roman empire (where he lived) was the equivelent to treason, was that you must worship the cult of the emporor. Jesus activly went about preaching that the cult of the emporor was false and that worship of the emporor would lead to hell.

so understandably he was crucified which shows that he was nothing special as crucifixtion was the punish of slaves and lowly non citizen criminals. if they considered you important then they made an example of you, feed to lions or thrown off tarperians rock or made some other public spectical of.

why do chrisitians seem to have absolutly no knowledge of ancient history? oh i know.. its because if you even have basic knowlegde of ancient history then you know there is no truth in the bible it just doesn't make sense, doesn't fit with what the rest of the worlds historical sources (some even reference each other)or with the physical evidence.

imaginary friend? I've Known the Thomas family for over 25 years. Tim ( Val's son) is my closest friend. Tim called me Friday morning to tell me the news. We talked through the day, we talked again on Saturday when he decided to take her off life support. I called my family to let them know that Val Had passed, To find out later Saturday that she was still alive. So, P G Chris I don't need to do research, I have the facts.

"'get a relationship with God' and then you will begin to see why we think its worth it enough to testify to it despite the mockery and insults."

Get a relationship with 'mater materia' and you will see she is every bit as good as your sky man. any deity would be the same, if you know your ancestors than the 'relationship' with them is the same.

'mater materia' by the way pre-dates even the ancient greek goods (Zeus, Hera, etc). literally translated it means 'mother matter' and is basicly the worship of all things that are made out of matter, it is like worshiping mother earth except that it allows for other planets as well. the ancient parthians must of possesed more knowledge of space than given credit for, but this religon also pre-dates the pyrimids of eygpt which are star aligned so.... well i will let you meditate on the possibilities

knowing the patient doesn't give the knowlegde of a doctor. so are you saying that because you know her you understand all medical science because there are a lot of facts there.

you are missing the point on the sort of facts we are talking about, like actual brain activity (ruled out machine/operator fault), there are lots of possible senarios were she could have been assumed dead and as DavidSJA said the fact that she was still be considered for organ transplant but hadn't had them taken out yet means that she was never fully taken of life support or there would be nothing to consider donating.

"We're not quarreling, we're just testifying."

See and that is where I have my problem with organized religion. I remember all too well having to go door to door as a child and asking people if they had been saved yada yada. You ever try to get rid of a Southern Baptist from your door? Pain in the ass because they will come back and back and back.

Believe in whatever higher power you want or none at all but shoving it down others throats is no way to share your god unlike what you might have been taught.

I don't think that SN is anti-god as some would like you to think, they just prefer to worship as they wish or in some cases not at all. And when someone starts testifying my ears close because goddess knows I lived enough years being preached to about fire and brimstone.

All I meant by my comments was for everyone to try and respect each other while debating, at the very least ;)

"arrogant and self righteous"

"He said there would be PEOPLE LIKE YOU"


See, these are the types of phrases that need not be brought up. Excelsior, who have you EVER convinced in changing their views from atheist to theist with that sort of SLANDERING talk?

Crosimoto, why do you feel the need to have the last word?



One doesn't need to arouse negative feelings from the opposing camp in order to prove a point. Let's grow up everyone, shall we?

If you find that mentioning jesus as the greatest thing ever is absolutely necessary to be a part of every single one of your posts: good for you. If you feel you need to somehow demean others by calling their views WRONG simply for the fact that they disagree with yours at the same time: f*** off.

I need not mention any of my fellow atheist's insults against "god" as they are all typically the same: "If god were good, or real... this world wouldn't suck so much"

Does anyone want to answer me this: If I refuse to accept "jesus" as my saviour, but am a law-abiding, commandment following (THEY'RE BASIC LAWS OF HUMAN RIGHTS!) happiness pursuing American, am I going to hell simply because I wouldn't say "I accept you jesus" ?

What do "going to heaven" and "going to hell" exactly MEAN? Is hell REALLY an eternal fire of pain and suffering?

I'm human, and I could never, EVER put someone through that kind of fate. I'm not even perfect, in fact, I'm flawed by nature (being a human being) and I feel I have better ethics than the "god" described by Christianity. It's just a thought, but maybe that's why so many atheists just can't seem to FEEL god the way theists do?

"arrogant and self righteous"
I agree that a person 'supposedly' involved in a religion that purports being the 'high road' should be above reproach. And if you look at all of my posts, I have not said things like;
'imaginary skydaddy'
'God is one sick guy...he gets off on this sort of thing'
'its the devil at work, not god'
MOST of my comments are in the order of; On the basis of your argument, consider this...
But even aside of all of that I admit that John 14:6 is "arrogant and self righteous" so although I wish debating was as simple as presenting the better evidence, that's obviously not the case; hence my comment about believing and proof. I wish their wasn't this aire of hostility but I'm actually okay with my label...He said when that happens, to hold my head up.
this is one story that I find awesome.

it'd be good if a mod could fix that.
which makes this story even MORE MIRACULOUS....AWESOME GOD!!!

@ dekar

I only directed part of the previous post to you, and the 'arrogance and self-righteous' was not intended for you, nor anyone in particular. I was simply stating that if one approaches God with that attitude, nothing good will come of it. I know from experience, because that was exactly the attitude that I approached God with for most o my life. I claim that title only for myself, it is not intended as slander for you or anyone here and I appologise for letting it seem that way.

My intention is merely to counter the claims that God is in any way evil with "I have met God, and he isn't evil. Far from it." I put it out there so that if anyone is willing to consider the evidence, they may be encouraged to seek it further.

Despite what some people believe, we who follow Jesus do not get points or a better place in 'heaven' for 'converting' people. The point is that we can't convince you of anything. We are not the ones who 'convert'. No human made me follow Jesus, only Jesus did that. I'm just out to let people know that once I hated God, and then I met him and my position changed immeasurably.


@ TaraB

The above might be be relevant for you. I'm sorry you were forced to do that, but like I said, only God will convince you to follow him, anything else is coersion. I'm not using 'relationship' as a metaphor...if you are forced by anyone to partake in anything to do with God, your free will is being violated and i would warrant that God's will is also being violated. Without free will, relationship cannot exist. That's why God gave it to us.

@veya

'mater materia' doesn't predate time. God made time and is not bound by it. Personally, I don't trust anything that doesn't terrify me. And by that i mean that only God strikes fear into my heart.

As for history, you have researched to figure out how many times the bible has been correct in its recordings while everyone else has accused it, only to then discover evidence that confirms the bibles claims, haven't you? Start at the book of Daniel, you'll be suprised what Archaeology disputed in Daniel until the ever revered 'empirical' evidence changed their opinions. Either way, I'm not claiming to be the greatest historian ever, but I'm not exactly as uninformed as you seem to imply.

As for the trial of Jesus, who makes the rules? Roman Empire? God of creation? Do the math as to which authority Jesus was obeying...I would argue the one that counts. Even western society would take a fair bit of an issue with Roman Law. How much more so the God of creation?

And yeah, the significance of crucifixion to the Hebrews is the point here, Jesus is fulfiling their promises after all. Again, like above, it doesn't matter if it means nothing to the Romans, namely because God is better than them.

I've heard that garbage time and time again. Firstly, check your dates - the census during which Jesus was supposedly born took place after Herod's death... whoops!

Besides, you've seen the movie Titanic? Very historically accurate movie, except the main characters didn't actually exist...

"Does anyone want to answer me this: If I refuse to accept "jesus" as my saviour, but am a law-abiding, commandment following (THEY'RE BASIC LAWS OF HUMAN RIGHTS!) happiness pursuing American, am I going to hell simply because I wouldn't say "I accept you jesus" ?"

I'll answer it, but so do countless websites out there.

Jesus is the best thing ever. The worst thing is not that you might go to hell, but that you might miss out on God himself. You know beauty? He is the source of it. Mystery? That too. Genuine, self-sacrificial love? God. Existence itself? That was God too.

Whether or not hell is a literal fiery lake, or whatever else, I will leave to others to debate.

But the real point is that if you don't want God, you will get what you want, which will be hell in whatever form it comes.

As you said, this world is corrupt, and so are many of its patterns of thought and its laws. The human body is weak, fragile and rpone to corruption...so is the mind. People think its okay to lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape, but wisdom is vindicated by her children.

As Christians, we have simply realised that by ourselves, we are all really, really screwed. We constantly make the wrong choices, constantly mess things up in varying degrees of bad and acknowledge that we have no idea how to live a 'worthy life,' if such a thing exists.

Jesus promises much more than a 'worthy life,' He demands our life, and he will show us what to do with it to avoid total futility.

I met Jesus and he shows me how right I am again and again. Whenever I lie, he proves him way right, whenever I judge people, he shows me I am wrong, before I met Jesus when I did drugs, slept around, and didn't give a damn about anyone but myself, he let me do it until my misery proved him perfectly right.

Then I listened to him, tried things his way, and saw testimony after testimony of the same thing happening to other people. Sadly, I also see people who think following Jesus is a 'religion', not a relationship, and that it is something to be forced on others. But these people are my brothers and sisters, and I enjoy spending my time showing them what Jesus has shown me, that love cannot be forced upon people, it can only wait for the ones who don’t want it to get so low that they see that perhaps its isn’t a bad idea after all. And as Jesus showed clearly, this is a gift, free of any charge, and like Jesus I am going to advertise it because what the world offers us is crap, plain and simple. I've chewed enough of it to know as good as anyone.

We aren’t trying to force you to follow Jesus, as aforementioned, that is coercion. But I don’t have a problem with showing people that the effect of hell begins in life by not listening to Jesus. Any glance at the world will show you that, be it war, divorce, murder, or even death.
“I'm flawed by nature (being a human being) and I feel I have better ethics than the "god" described by Christianity.”
Welcome to the club, I was too (read on, im not in any way claiming to be perfect), and every time I don’t listen to God in this present I act according to that nature again. Flawed by nature. That nature is apart from God, and cannot be trusted to judge anything, including itself. I once viewed myself as God’s gift to the planet, until I realised that God himself was God’s gift to humanity. God destroys that flawed nature and gives us his own if we will accept. And since he is perfect, he is able to judge perfectly, to administer justice or reward where it is required. If I were the judge of the universe, I definitely couldn’t put anyone through hell. But I have proven myself to be totally unworthy of such a position. Jesus proved himself worthy, and thus he got his reward – resurrection, eternal kingship over creation...us! We’re part of that reward, and so is giving us his nature – the perfect nature. That’s why everyone other than Jesus should not judge, because we really don’t know what we are doing. We don’t know everything, and therefore, cannot make a just decision on any matter, even ourselves, because I dunno about anyone else, but I am as much a mystery to myself as pretty much anything else in life half the time. But God knows us inside and out. And WHEN he judges – recall overlooked John 3:17 “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” – Jesus came once to save, next time will be to judge. So that is why we know he loves, otherwise he would have come only once and we wouldn’t be here.
I understand some of your view of God, after all, it was mine for 22 years of my life. But he loves us like no one else can, treats us better than we could ever deserve, and will punish with perfect justice and judgment those who deserve it, and reward those who deserve that.
We aren’t part of a religion. Religion sets out to please God or to become one. Christians (should) know that nothing we can do is ever good enough t

We aren’t part of a religion. Religion sets out to please God or to become one. Christians (should) know that nothing we can do is ever good enough to please God, thats why he doesn’t ask us to do things (pray, build temples, sacrifice children *note* Israel’s sacrifices are well explained by any good bible commentator and are unique in that they are not a gift to God like in ‘religions’, but a gift from God to humanity, completed by the gift of Jesus to humanity). What he does ask is that we listen to him, for our own benefit, because if we don’t, things go to hell. And he didn’t make any human ever for that purpose.

Herod the Great
Herod Archelaus
Herod Antipas
Herod Agrippa I
Herod Philip I
Herod Philip II
Herod of Chalcis
Herod Agrippa II

circle the one you're refering to and get back to me. But hey, if you've proven me and the generations wrong, then it's like the Apostle Paul said:

"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all others."

(1Co 15:13-19)

Pitied more than all others...Whoops indeed!

As for Titanic, I spose it's okay, but I wouldn't say I like it as much as you. But hey, that's cool, I like Jumanji.

Whoever fired the resurrection gun, missed.

This story was also on CNN. From the story, it seems they took her brain wave readings more than once, with more than one machine. I to, thought they had made a mistake, and that she was not really dead. But, looks like a miracle to me. And yes, the Creator (Jesus), can and does still perform miracles. I like the reply by Excelsior, that was a pretty good answer. Remember, God is LOVE, He is not into cruel things at all. It is the Devil that thinks up the cruel sh*t.

are very ignorant.....i suppose i should just find your families and murder them.

That would be "god's plan" right?


Everything is "god's plan" right?


If I shot your family members and stabbed the, couldn't god do another miracle liket his then?...and save them?

Too busy to stop earthquakes so he is instead resurrecting a woman from death and - a pig:
Dead barbecue pig rises and walks off
http://www.pigprogress.net/

It's all well and good that you think that "Jesus is the best thing ever" but I am starting to think that it is impossible for someone to be Christian and not make baseless assertions all day long.

No, that would be the devil's work.

Devil card trumps God card.

It is God's plan that everyone get to know Him, by His loving kindness. It is the Devil's plan to get people to TURN away from God because of his (the devil's wickedness). Because God is LOVE, He does not bring evil upon people. That, comes from the devil (also called satan, also called Lucifer <son of the morning>). I rest my case. :)

I'll make it as clear as I can: When I say I follow Jesus (God), the God I am refering to is the one who created our universe, the life in it, human anatomy, the smallest object in existence, the largest, the most complex, the least. Free will was his idea, and giving it to humanity was his desire. This God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnisapient. He created everything through sheer will.

This God is NOT one who struggles to raise the dead. So yes, if he wants to, the dead will be raised. Jesus said the word and it was done for him. Jesus is also one of many who have been physically ressurected.

You can do to my family or anyone elses whatever you feel is necessary. That's your free will.

But in what sense are we 'God people' ignorant? Do you mean generally in everything, or something specific?

@Fratley

"baseless assertions all day long."

As I said, wisdom is vindicated by her children.

@ Kaleid

What does the earthquake in China show us: that we can't even trust the ground we stand on.

An appropriate metaphor for those who value the material and trust in it alone. Like anyone who values 'love', Christians also look beyond the physical evidence to someone who is beyond physicality. Like love, God has an impact in the physical realm, though also like love, you cannot grab a chunk of God, bind him in a plastic bag and say "here he is!"

What happened in China is an absolute tragedy as I'm sure everyone here will agree. You can believe God is responsible for it. I'll take it as a sign that confirms what Jesus repeatedly said would reveal the truth - you can't trust in the material world, no matter how rich or powerful you are.

Physical life can be stolen away, but spiritual life in Christ is eternal. And it comes with a physical body that reflects the eternal spiritual reality.

I guess I'll join the debate:

NOTE: I am NOT disputing the existence of "A GOD" I am disputing the CORRECTNESS of christianity, and most religions which embrace a similar belief of "God"

If hell truly is an infinitely painful, horrible eternity, "God" can not be perfect and just.

Perfection implies an infinite amount of goodness, and no bad.



If I were given the choice between FREE WILL and ETERNAL, WONDERFUL, BEAUTIFUL HAPPINESS, I would take the latter.

Free will's fun and all, but I'm pretty positive nirvana, egodeath, enlightenment, or whatever name you use for it, is the greatest feeling ever, and if all I had to do in order to experience it was to say "I love god"

you bet your sweet ass I would.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this all knowing, all loving, all powerful being, is none of the above. If any of you have ever truly loved someone in your life, you'll get what I mean.

Truly loving someone causes you to be UNABLE to willingly hurt that person, be it physically or emotionally.

That being said, "God" would, by definition, love something as much as you do multiplied by infinity.

An infinite amount of love, you say? Well then, that would cause "God" to experience an infinite amount of PAIN just by seeing ANY harm befall you!

This brings about a paradox: a perfect being experiencing pain, and torment?!?! That can not be!

You said it, not me. The christian god does not exist.

here's an argument against those of you who believe "the devil" ACTUALLY exists, and is after your soul!

This is assuming "god" is PERFECT, LOVING, AND JUST.

Here's a cute little analogy I just thought of:

Let's assume you're a parent, and you have placed your child in a room with a cookie jar and a television, the cookies they are not allowed to eat, but they are allowed to watch the television.

Now that that's done, you invite your evil neighbor (WHO YOU KNOW IS EVIL, AND YOU CREATED, AND YOU KNEW HE WOULD TURN OUT EVIL FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME) over, to babysit or whatever. The evil neighbor decides to coerce your child into eating the cookies.

You decide to punish both the child and your neighbor.

NOW, you decide that your child must of their OWN accord, decide you are a just and loving parent, in order to be able to both have the cookies, and watch TV, for all of eternity.



Are you Just? No. You are in no way, shape, or form Just. In fact, you are evil. You have created both the evil neighbor, and your son, simply in order to punish them both for their wrongdoings (which you in fact are responsible for!)

Knowing you are in fact, NOT Just, or loving, or a decent person whatsoever, if your child has ANY intelligence whatsoever, they will tell you "No, you are a bad parent, and a bad person."

christianity is wrong, period. You may feel "god" in your life, but trust me, it isn't the christian god. The rapture is NEVER going to happen. Life is life, deal with it. Stop imposing your RETARDED views upon other people, and get over the fact that people CAN in fact be GOOD, JUST, HAPPY, PRODUCTIVE members of society without falling for your hoax of a religion.

If the christian god's GREATEST gift to humanity was free will, then god's a lying sack of crap, AND a cheap skate.

First off, the christian god by definition knows everything, and is all powerful.

This being said, the christian god knows EVERYTHING that IS, EVER WAS, and EVER WILL BE.



Your destiny is known, and is therefore on a set course to fulfill itself. You have NO free will, merely the illusion of it.




Then again, you're allowed to make choices right? Well then! the christian god doesn't exist!




Not to mention, being all powerful, god could simply give us an EASY BUTTON and say "Hey, you all deserve eternal happiness, cause I love you all!"

But this god is neither willing, or all powerful, because it doesn't exist~!



Prove me wrong with logic, not long stories about your life and how you had my same opinions.


Then again, if you DON'T believe in a "god" similar to the one I've described in any of my posts, I'm NOT ARGUING WITH YOU, be happy!

There is simply too much mumbo jumbo, invented answers and own interpretations and cherrypicking to me even to really bother to answer to it all.

" You can believe God is responsible for it."
I don't. I don't believe in any of gods we humans have invented and you'd believe in something completely different had your parents faith been different and especially had your birthplace been a stronghold of another invented religion like Islam or Hinduism.

Religion is a childish toy, the poor man's comforting philosophy.

"Stop imposing your RETARDED views upon other people, and get over the fact that people CAN in fact be GOOD, JUST, HAPPY, PRODUCTIVE members of society without falling for your hoax of a religion."

'imposing'? I’m posting on a website. Are you saying that this is imposing? One might argue that capital letters are more imposing than lower case. I wouldn’t, but someone might. Heads up ;)

So what constitutes 'just', 'happy' and 'productive'? What if someone argued that a happy productive person is “one who gets what they want, at any cost to anyone but themselves”? If they did, they might also note that Hitler, for a good decade or so, was a just, happy, productive person. Where do you draw the line of subjectivity?

What worries me is that “GOOD, JUST, HAPPY, PRODUCTIVE members of society” get dead. One might argue that you should just be murderously bad! Empirically, it’s the same result. Though that is only from a material perspective. Others, perhaps, might suggest that there is more to reality that just the physical, empirically measurable world.

"You said it, not me. The christian god does not exist."

When you logic your way out of dying, let me know.

"invented answers and own interpretations and cherrypicking"

All three at once? Or each in various places?

" I don't believe in any of gods we humans have invented and you'd believe in something completely different had your parents faith been different and especially had your birthplace been a stronghold of another invented religion like Islam or Hinduism."

We totally agree!!! I don’t believe in any gods humans have invented either. Though I am not sure why I must continually repeat this: God has revealed himself. He is a relational God. We did not seek him. He sought us. Is anyone here still confused over this issue?

Well, my father is an Atheist and while I won't assume too much, my mother didn't seem to be Christian, so I’m not really sure if your argument is relevant, considering I came to Christ with no 'Christian' influence from family, or in fact by any personal contact with any Christian at all. It happened when I met Jesus.


Seriously, I was an atheist guys. I didn't one day think: "Hmm, I don’t believe God exists and I totally hate Christians...I think it's a great time to start following Jesus!" God revealed himself to me. He does that. To anyone who asks! Ask politely though, even God doesn’t like demands.

You know China? Not a Christian nation.
Lots of Christians! You'll get arrested, but despite it Jesus is spreading like crazy. Funny thing that, it’s almost as if they are being drawn to Jesus, despite the serious trouble it gets people in China into. Plenty of testimonies about what God is doing there.

It's amusing, you'll find these people who are deadly serious that they lost a limb in an accident/were born missing a limb, and that they prayed to Jesus or were prayed for in Jesus' name and the limb literally regrew in front of their eyes. And when it happens, they don’t go for the emergency logic button, they just believe their eyes.

The testimonies are there, but if you can't even be bothered reading my posts, will you have time for the Chinese church?

Seriously, I tell you God is down the road (in this hypothetical, God is actually down the road), could you be bothered looking?

If not, any questions as to why you can see no evidence for God anywhere in the world??

If anyone here was actually genuine about proving to themselves once and for all that God doesn't exist, they would have to be:
1) Willing to actually search (you don’t have to read my posts, but do try something...anything)
2) Humble: willing to accept that you are wrong about everything you think you know about anything, especially God. (as a former atheist, I did that, it’s actually cool to be proven wrong by God – try it)
If not, then it’s still like Paul said: Christians “are to be pitied more than all others.”

"Religion is a childish toy, the poor man's comforting philosophy."

So that's you, me and vant that agree on this now! Right on!!!

Sooner or later, everyone will begin to understand what you, me, and vant are saying - God doesn't want religion! God wants relationship!

...although, I don't think we should elevate ourselves above people who adhere to religion. Everyone makes mistakes. We make plenty ourselves remember. furthermore, relationship isn't about anyone being better than anyone else.

...And I guess, looking at it, there are a lot of poor people who come to Jesus, I mean, he did come to comfort the poor, so I dunno if we can really make a case for 'all poor people follow religion'. It's really more like a broad spectrum of socio-economic groups that adhere to religion. I think it's best to just avoid group people together like that. Like, we're all brothers and sisters in Christ, you know, no Jew or Greek, no slave or master, no male or female, that whole gig. Speaking of male and female, we really can't go categorizing men as the only ones who follow religions, because it simply isn't the case. I know plenty of women who are Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Hindus, etc.

Other than that though, we have a winner. It's not about religion, it's about relationship.

This time, Kaleid, I think everyone is gonna finally get what we are saying.

Look Kaleid, I know how you feel about telling people that God's about relationship, not religion, so I'm excited to tell you that Karl Marx is also in agreeance with yourself, vant, and myself:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, & the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"

btw, don't take this the wrong way, I like what you said Kaleid, but I think Karl really captures what religion is all about. Karl is a man who can visually depict the reality of religion through language, providing an exceptional contrast with the relationship that God truly desires with us. He should be our frontman.

Who ever said one could avoid death? BTW, nice job nitpicking at my argument!

"So what constitutes 'just', 'happy' and 'productive'? What if someone argued that a happy productive person is “one who gets what they want, at any cost to anyone but themselves”? If they did, they might also note that Hitler, for a good decade or so, was a just, happy, productive person. Where do you draw the line of subjectivity?"




Being JUST, because you obviously don't know what the word means, (don't worry, ALMOST NO CHRISTIANS DO) is being righteous, or as dictionary.com says it: consistent with what is morally right.
What about being JUST? I'm sorry, but as long as there is sadness and hatred in this world, there doesn't exist a JUST, LOVING, CHRISTIAN, god.

Don't bring subjectivity into this either, there is an accepted definition of morality, furthering one's happiness WITHOUT setting back someone else's.

Pretty simple huh? It's a darn shame christians need an invisible man in the sky to tell them what's right and what's wrong before they understand this, when it's so obvious to the rest of us.

Then again, considering I shot down your entire religion in about 20 minutes last time I decided to argue, I'd be nitpicking against my arguments too!


Intelligence is a barrier to "being saved" : this being the case, how can your god be just, whatsoever? Everyone should have the exact SAME ability to "be saved", unfortunately, this is not the case, and I will never "be saved" because I have too much faith in what's real, and not enough faith in what can never, ever, ever be proven!

It seems that being an intelligent human being, I am being denied by the christian "god" to be happy for all of eternity after my death, because "god" made me this way! Thanks "god" you're the best!

/sarcasm

Btw, what about the devil? What about free will? You did a good job of misinterpreting my first argument, how about you completely and utterly fail at debunking my other two? We're in a battle of the wits, and you're being completely destroyed by an 18 year old! I'm sorry but if you're my one chance at salvation through "opening my eyes to god" you're failing, and have just failed "god"




On the people's arms being grown back: I just googled for about 5 minutes trying to find ANY testimonies concerning people regrowing limbs, and most of the top ten sites are atheists explaining why prayer just doesn't work!

Thanks for lying to me and wasting my time, if "god" REALLY wanted me to accept him and good ol' jesus, I'm pretty positive my five minutes of searching would've at least shown ONE relevant site to my search, considering I'm looking up proof, and wasn't expecting any links at all!

Oh naive me, how can you bring yourself to argue with such ignorance?!?! GahhHH!

*Excelsior hands Dekar the wit trophy, shakes his hand and congratulates him on his furiously incomparable wit.*


"accepted definition of morality"

Ask anyone down the street about abortion. You'll get varying opinions. Humanity cannot set itself a concrete moral standard. We just can't agree on one.


'Testimony'
www.ibethel.org - download the podcasts.


I'm not the one offering salvation. I'm just pointing to God over there saying "that way is the best one."
If someone commits suicide, I didn't murder them.

I'm not saying you are naive or ignorant. I think you are neither.

Honestly, I value you so much that I would give my life to save yours if the situation arose. That's why I tell people about the God I've met. Like any gift, you don't have to take it, but forgive me if I continue to offer it around to everyone.

this story sounds more like BS. Sorry. I love how "death started to set in" after being dead for 17 minutes when the starting stages of rigor mortis starts at 3-4 hours after death.

Time line:


On Saturday May 17th at 1:30 am Val had called her son Tim complaining of chest pains. He called 911 while his wife on the other line tried to keep her Conscience. When Tim arrived at his mother’s house, the medics were already there and were trying to revive her and they did get a pulse at this time. (No Rigor Mortise had set in at this time like most articles have stated).
When she arrived at Thomas Approx 2:15am (local hospital). They did discover through testing (EEG) that she had no brain activity. Being a small hospital there wasn’t mush more they could do for Val. So they transported her to Memorial hospital. Memorial hospital also did testing (EEG) Val still had no brain activity. During this period she had a total of three heart attacks, flat lined three times and at that point, is when her toes and fingers starting hardening and curling. At Approx 2:30 pm Tim and his family decided to take Val off life support (no brain activity for 12 ½ hours). Hospital staff removed all of the machines except the ventilator while determining if she was organ donor candidate. Approx. 7:00 pm (17 hours of no brain activity) there were two nurses that were removing the ventilator tube from Val when she coughed and moved her arm. Tim (Her son) received a call from the nurses telling him his mother was a live and was asking for him. I know I don’t have every little detail but this should clear up the time line.

Val has gone to the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio, for follow-up. She'll meet with specialists about her very unusual situation.


"Even after we induced hypothermia on her, that her heart stopped again," Dr. Kevin Eggleston from the Charleston Area Medical Center said. "And there were really no signs of neurological function."

Now, you’re going to tell me that she was missed diagnosed by two teams of doctors and nurses and/ or equipment failure at two different hospitals. Give me a break this is truly a MIRACLE.

@ P G

According to the Gospel of Matthew (2:1,16) Herod was alive when Jesus was born, and ordered the Massacre of the Innocents in response to his birth.

Ah, this post has brought about some lively discussion ! :)
How many of you have read your KJV Bible sidez me ?
Well, if ya have good. If not, then get out a concordance and do a little searching.
First, you will find that God is LOVE.
2nd, you will find out that God does not gather pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.
Third, yes He did create Lucifer. But, Lucifer allowed himself to become the DEVIL, by going against God.
Fourth, if ya read real close, you will note that God says He will wipe "all tears away, and the rememberance of them, shall be no more"
5th, Since, the rememberance is gone, that must mean that hell......is going to burn how long ?

Let me put it another way. You have kids ? Ya love em rite ? They do something wrong you correct them. Time out, or switch or something. Do you beat them for years and years and years ? Or just long enough they will get the message ?

Let me put it another way still. So, ya get to heaven, and two of ya friends don't. Now, according to some people's God, those two who don't make it, are gonna burn for billions and billions of years. But, according to the Holy Writ, God is LOVE. Those two can't mesh at all.

Let me put it another way. The God I serve is a loving, caring, just God. Peroid. An orderly one, that created things in a wonderful, orderly way.
Ah, the Creator (Jesus) lives !
:)

I promise wont waste your time about re-growing a limb. Don’t let misleading stories get you frustrated.

God/Jesus gave us free will so we could make our own decisions. He wants to see who would love and accept him. Free will is about obedience.
What is free will if God already has a plan? I explain it the way it was explained to me. When I watch a movie and then I watch it again later, I know what’s going to happen because I’ve seen it. When it comes to free will you make your own decisions, but God has already seen it. God knows EVERYTHING that IS, EVER WAS, and EVER WILL BE. God/Jesus could intervene but then the point of free will would be lost.

Why doesn’t God allow everyone in heaven? What kind of god would do that?

Have you ever loved and believed in someone so much, but they don’t love or believe in you. And know matter what you did they just didn’t care. That’s pretty hard to except.
If you don’t love and believe in god/Jesus, why would you want to go to place called heaven? And better yet why would God/Jesus want you in his kingdom. God/Jesus wants a kingdom that is full of love, caring and just, not a bunch of self centered humans that are full of hate and misery. It’s your decision.

The first false assumption is that love allows the object of that love to do whatever he or she wants. However, this permissive kind of "love" isn't really love at all. Any of you who are parents will recognize that allowing your children to do whatever they want to do is not loving at all. If you were to do this, your children would grow up to be spoiled selfish brats, incapable of loving other people.

Everyone has to remember by having the gift of free will, there can and will be opportunity as well as Consciences. You can’t blame god for all the things that go wrong.
We make the decisions. God will decide the outcome. Unless he wants he God. Making one wrong decision could affect many generation.

Many things that people consider to be bad are, in fact, are useful in our spiritual growth. The Bible says that trials in our lives produce perseverance, which helps make us mature and complete.


In the biblical Creation account found in the book of Genesis, no mention is made of a place called hell. Everything that God made during the time of Creation was good. However, the Bible tells us in Matthew 25:41 that hell was later prepared for "the devil and his angels" (see also Isaiah 14:12). God did not create hell for man; it was never His intention that any man or woman should go to hell. In 2 Peter 3:9, we learn that God does not want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." But when you separate yourself from God, and this is your choice “free will” then when you die you will go to hell

dude are you serious?

misleading?

Jesus raises the dead in the same scriptures you're quoting from.

Don't box God. He does wierder, crazier things than re-growing limbs and eyeballs. Like becoming human to die for people gone evil for one.

Everything else you wrote is spot on though. Amen!

http://www.newday.com.au/
first search "testimonies god regrowing"

make of it what you will.

I believe.

about her current condition. 10 minutes without O2 flow is more than long enough to get brain damage

I just love it when the redemmed of the Lord "says so". Psalms 107:2
This story is is anything BUT a miracle to what I think are some blinded minds. It's good to see salt and light in places like this.

God is not the God I 'wished' He was...He was God eternally before my preconceived notions of perfect, free will or even love, if you want to know Gods definition of these words...just read the Bible, it's His 'weighing in' on things. When I did, personally, it didn't change what I thought about God, but it more correctly defined those words. Lets take free will, I think (you may disagree) that free will is moreso the ability to chose without force, but not absent of influence. We love God because He first loved us...influence, but not force. You can "Taste and see" without having to chew and digest.
Even in the 'choosing', we can't create a X option; it's always in the context of predetermined options. Each option setting a certain set of consequences in motion (good or bad). Free will would be the ability to choose outisde of any predetermined option. God is not the god I wished He was, but He's delightfully more than I could have ever imagined.

Thank you for the first hand information that you've brought to this story.

@excelsior

I didn't say God couldn't grow a limb or do weirder, but When your witnessing to someone that doesn't believe in God (Any God!) it helps when they can find some info on the subject. Great link, Give This Kid "Kedar" some info and scripture that he can run with.

@ Crismoto

What is your definition of a miracle?


@ Syoware

She's doing very well. I spoke with her last week. She remembers everyone, She doesn't remember what happen as of yet.
I'm waiting for an update from her Son, I'll let you know when I here something.

sweet, gotchya!

I guess my (unrefined)definition for miracle is simple and of course there are droves of people who may disagree.....to me a miracle simply means 'God got involved in a remarkable(mentionable) way'. To me, everyday I wake up is a miracle, and I thank Him personally, but there were some remarkable times growing up in Compton CA, where I could've been killed. Once I actually heard my grandmother call me, I went to ask her what she wanted and she said she hadn't called.
This miracle involving the woman in W VA is a biggie to me.

As soon as you guys can get god down here to testify that it was him then I will become a devout believer.

P.S. No circular logic allowed.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I am an Atheist. However, I don't particularly want to debate whether 'God' exists because it would be pointless with all parties still believing the same at the end of it anyway.

Secondly, I'd like to say (and I know it's hard to determine tone through text only but this is not meant sarcastically) that some of the comments about hoping others find God have been sort of touching. Even though I don't believe it I can see that if you do, this is really wishing good for others.

My problem (or at least the one I'm going to put forward) is with *how* people can go about 'finding God/Jesus'.

If you just do not *believe* something then how can you convince yourself of it?

If I said to you, "There is a fairy that lives at the bottom of your garden. You can't physically touch her or see her but she's there. And if you are willing to really believe this then your eyes will be opened to all kinds of wonders and you will be guaranteed eternal happiness."

That sounds nice but you *can't* convince yourself of something you don't believe in the first place. I *can't* force myself to believe something just as I doubt you could force yourself to believe in the fairy.

So, what happens to me? I am always open to being proved wrong. And I actually think it would be great to believe there is a far superior being watching out for me and to know that an eternity of happiness awaits me. But I just don't.

I'm sorry if I'm the last person you wanted to have respond to your post. I can only imagine how rough things are for you: This is not pity, trust me. And I'm not assuming you have a bad life because you're an athiest, you may be the happiest, 'cool as a cucumber' type person around. When I say rough I mean it from the sense that when it comes to believing or not believing; you catch it from all sides. You don't have to simply believe that only Christians, OR Muslims OR Hindus are wrong...but that they're all altogether wrong...I would think that to be a rough road.
The book by former athiest, C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' made sense of it far better than any post I've read; but it is a book (you can actually read it free online here) http://lib.ru/ Taking your example of the fairy in the garden, if one was to sit and make sense of the world we experience (socio-morally) by the ideas set forth by this fairy, then I would say that it's a religion merits some credit. Christians believe that a relationship with Elohim(God) through the Jewish man, Jesus(Yeshua, more properly) offers an explanation of the world we experience. I will forgo hanging myself with trivial anecdotes and witty discourse...please if you have the time, take a look at the link.

Supposing He is real, why is this something God would do? If He is performing miracles again why something like this and not a cure for AIDS? I mean no offence to this woman but why bother with one person, it seems rather useless to me.

Please send that link again. Thanks

When something like this happens it not affecting one person, its affecting everyone that believes that It was a miracle from God/Jesus. Look how many people have read this story(10's of 1000's). It's all about spiritual growth."

@ darklady

I would have to disagree I think to find God/Jesus you have to question and debate with someone that really understands the bible (A believer). I’m not talking about somebody that’s going to talk over your head, but someone that can really explain the bible in detail. “People do change.”
If you want to listen to someone amazing, listen to Gino Geraci. Log onto www.calvarycsd.org/ His show streams weekdays 4 – 6 MST. Or local Denver 94.7 KRKS. If you have any questions email me @ findtheway@comcast.net

Email me and we'll talk about the fairy. findtheway@comcast.net

http://lib.ru/
if this breaks up it should be
lib . ru / LEWISCL / mere _ engl . txt
(just take out all the spaces)

Thanks for the replies. In case anyone's wondering I am reading 'Mere Christianity', since crosimoto was the first to reply and not 'cause I'm shunning any other suggestions. I remember liking the 'Narnia' books as a child so who knows.

I'll keep you posted.

Speaking of "talking over one's heads"; Mere Christianity can get a bit 'thick on logic' at times, so if you want to chat about "what the heck is he saying", PM me and I'll shoot you an email address.

I'm back from work and have finished the first book. On the whole the logic hasn't been too bad but there are a few things I've picked up on. It may just be the part of me that did Philosophy but it's in my nature to be pendantic.

It might be easiest for me to post the questions I have since that way anyone can give their oppinions. To make this easier I'll take quotes from the book so anyone who hasn't read it can also see roughly what I'm referring to.

(Sorry - the first one's quite long.)

“…some people wrote to me saying, "Isn't what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn't it been developed just like all our other instincts?" Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct-by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires-one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them.”

-But surely the desire to help etc. *comes* from the original herd instinct and the knowledge that acting in certain ways helps the species as a whole? We are more intelligent than other animals and so the herd instinct that other animals have has ended up being developed further for humans to include the things we need to cover that other animals don’t. For instance; other animals cannot lie, so they don’t have an instinct that tells them not to.

-We have also written these rules into laws etc. that have been passed on and on. Other animals cannot be ‘taught’ things in the same way we can. We have laws plus we are taught morality by our parents, by our teachers, and by society in general. We have them reinforced every day, so is it any wonder that we hear them at the back of our minds’ in situations that call for us to use them?

-C.S. Lewis says that throughout history humans have had the same basic morality. Surely this only holds depending on how far back you take it? I’m not arguing that the Romans or Greeks didn’t have similar morality to us but take it back further. What about cavemen? Did they have our ‘morality’ or just the herd instincts other animals have?

“The law of gravity tells you what stones do if you drop them; but the Law of Human Nature tells you what human beings ought to do and do not. In other words, when you are dealing with humans, something else comes in above and beyond the actual facts. You have the facts (how men do behave) and you also have something else (how they ought to behave). In the rest of the universe there need not be anything but the facts.”

-What about when a dog does a bad thing and we can see from its behaviour that it knows it has done something wrong? Dogs seem to display a basic knowledge of right and wrong. Perhaps it can be argued that this is purely cognitive behaviour; they associate doing certain things with being punished. But there is still the fact that they know there is a reason for doing something one way (what they ought to do) but act the other way.

-Isn’t this the same for young children to start with? Then gradually we explain to them why they are being punished for that particular action. Could this suggest that if dogs developed further they could also have this explained and have the beginnings of morality?

“Anyone studying Man from the outside as we study electricity or cabbages, not knowing our language and consequently not able to get any inside knowledge from us, but merely observing what we did, would never get the slightest evidence that we had this moral law. How could he?”

-Isn’t this quite a big jump to make? We have many advanced techniques in science now so how can we be sure that we couldn’t ever know it? Even, as C.S. Lewis says, supposing we (the we watching from the outside) couldn’t speak the language of us (the us being watched) is it so far-fetched that we wouldn’t be able to eventually understand the language?

“You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense. Science works by experiments. It watches how things behave. Every scientific statement in the long run, however complicated it looks, really means something like, "I pointed the telescope to such and such a part of the sky at 2:20 A.M. on January 15th and saw so-and-so," or, "I put some of this stuff in a pot and heated it to such-and-such a temperature and it did so-and-so."”

- Does science only work through experiments? If we look at a broad view of science it contains maths which is not just developed through experiments. And logic, similar to maths in many ways, is also applied.

I don't mind the idea of a 'running post' in regards to Mere Christianity but for the most part here on SN, once a story has exhausted its debating, people tend to move on....not to mention trying to scroll down passed 80 coments can be tedious :)

This sounds like my EX- after sex.....finally waking up.

come on now, people will and do believe anything that they read...now that's the sad part of this story.