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08/14/2008 03:54 AM ID: 72704 Permalink   

Immigration Detainee Dies Torturous Death


Hiu Lui Ng was a detainee in custody of US Immigration and Customs Enforcement when he started to complain of severe back pain. After months of asking for medical help and being accused of faking he died of rampant undiagnosed cancer.

During the time of his incarceration he grew so weak he could not walk. They did finally start giving him pain medication until he could no longer stand in line to receive them. Other detainees had to help him eat and go to the toilet.

A Federal judge finally ordered the warden take him to the hospital for an MRI. The test revealed he was riddled with cancer. He died five days later. His wife and kids couldn't visit for three days until their social security numbers were verified.

    WebReporter: gws1968 Show Calling Card      
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
  You really should...  
check the source. Way too much info to fit in the summary. This is some seriously f**ked up stuff!
  by: gws1968     08/14/2008 05:09 AM     
  Horrific stuff  
but sadly, not surprising at all.

  by: morgora     08/14/2008 05:29 AM     
  Olbermann Just Talked About This  
Countdown with Keith Olbermann - 2008-08-13, 1:33 - 2:40

Closing statment:

"They murdered him, we the people in George Bush's America, we murdered him."
  by: nicohlis     08/14/2008 05:32 AM     
  Uhm no  
He died of cancer, there is no murder to it. There is neglect, but if he died after mere months, then the cancer was already heavily advanced, and the prognosis would have neen dismal to start with. In all likelihood, he would have died anyway, and the best that could have been done is to make that death a little longer, and a little less painful.
  by: lauriesman     08/14/2008 05:41 AM     
  Uhm yes  
I can't believe some of the posts lauriesman makes. Pitiful.
  by: JonSmith     08/14/2008 05:46 AM     
Sorry man but that doesn't justify the treatment.
  by: gws1968     08/14/2008 05:48 AM     
He's not justifying it, he's just saying that it wasn't murder (which it wasn't). It was indeed gross negligence.
  by: edya   08/14/2008 05:50 AM     
I saw it on Olbermann, that's why I went looking for it.
  by: gws1968     08/14/2008 05:50 AM     
I'm not lambasting lauriesman. I respect his and anybody else that makes a sensible comment on this forum. I just can't react in any way but astonishment to this story. We used to be a country that respected Human Rights, at least up until about 7 years ago.
  by: gws1968     08/14/2008 06:53 AM     
  @lauriesman & edya  
it is called hyperbole, exaggeration for effect. Somehow, I don't think Keith was actually saying that everybody in America should be charged with murder.
  by: jendres     08/14/2008 06:57 AM     
  Here we go again  
As lauriesman said, he was already likely riddled with cancers when he was detained. We used to see immigrants like this, who would arrive in the US with terrible ailments hoping to be treated for free by US doctors, when their own country leaves them hanging. This sounds great, until the doctors start looking around for money. They have to get it somewhere, and unfortunately that somewhere is usually uncle Sam, which in turn, is me.
Murder is a bit much, and prison wardens have every right to be suspicious of detainees crying wolf.
Isolated case, etc.
  by: japh   08/14/2008 07:01 AM     
This is just pure sensationalization, I'm sure this happens every day in every other country around the world, you can't hold the US to a double standard where everybody else is allowed to detain cancer patients and allow them to die without questions, it's not like it's the leader of the freeworld or anything.
  by: silentrage   08/14/2008 07:50 AM     
It's not an isolated case. you're hearing about this more and more. Just read the source. This guy has been here for about 16 years, was here legitimately initially. Then through a series of mishaps, honest mistakes, and the governments lack of consistency and enforcement of an immigration policy he marries, has kids, and becomes more of a contributing member of society than most people. They decide to snatch him up when he is trying to do the right thing and treat him worse than we treat scumbags sitting on death row. There used to be a day when this country stood for better than that!
  by: gws1968     08/14/2008 07:56 AM     
I call bullshit. Can you show me evidence of a day when immigration detainees did not have to suffer in over crowded detention centers, poor facilities, and meagre medical treatment?

It's a simple fact that the number of illegal immigrants easily outstrips the space available to house them for processing.
  by: lauriesman     08/14/2008 08:31 AM     
No, it's absurbity for sensational appeal. There is not even the slightest ground for suggesting this man was killed by even gross negligence. Cancer is a terrible wasting disease, and the man was riddled with it. That doesn't happen over the space of a handful of months, it's years of slow spreading through the lymphatic system. This man was dead already, with treatment the last days of his life might have been a little more livable, but to suggest complicity in his death is patently absurbed.
  by: lauriesman     08/14/2008 08:34 AM     
and here I was thinking you were an IT geek not an oncologist.
  by: jendres     08/14/2008 08:37 AM     
Let's all just agree on one thing if we can't agree on others. And that is: Man, poor guy. Terrible situation. And lastly, only a perfect world could have saved him.

It's unfortunate that other detainee's in the past have probably ruined the credibility of detainee's that ask for medical attention. I felt (to a lesser degree) neglected after suffering a leg injury in basic training. The hospital, having to deal with malingering trainees all day, took my claims very lightly. They shot me up a few times with some placebo (saline, or something) and kept asking me if it was better. =P The pain was unbearing enough that I arrived in a wheel-chair. But the first time I hinted that the pain was getting better, I was thrown to crutches and told to get lunch. Getting lunch with crutches is difficult =P

Anyway, I know this is in no way related to a cancer patient or their pain, but the "medical neglect" portion of the story just reminds me.
  by: Dayron   08/14/2008 09:38 AM     
  My own story  
When I was 7, I dislocated my middle finger on the right hand, due to an early injury that severed the tendon.

Mum took me up to the hospital, and we waited for three hours for any kind of assistance. In the end they gave her two pain killers, and told her to fix it herself, then sent us off. I knew it was a bad response, but I didn't blame them, the waiting room was packed, and you can only handle a finite number of patients in any day.
  by: lauriesman     08/14/2008 09:50 AM     
broke my left leg in 3 places when I was 5, you can get around pretty quickly on crutches if you avoid stairs, plus they make nifty sniper rifles for army games.
  by: lauriesman     08/14/2008 09:55 AM     
Haha, no doubt I was the fastest troop in the flight after crutches. But it was my first time ever using them... and carrying lunch proved quite impossible. =P Someone always had to aid me in the mess hall, which, as you can imagine, made me spectacle for all the MTI's. "AYE, LOOK AT THIS ONE..." etc. etc.

=P I'll never forget when my own TI spoke up for me and said, "He's fine. He already passed his Physical Training test."

Nicest words he ever spoke.
  by: Dayron   08/14/2008 10:24 AM     
  @ most  
what a sad world we live in where hearing something like this doesn't shock some people - even worse - when they just shrug it off and say - "oh well..."

and once again - people jump up and say "its a double standard held against the USA..."

to you i say - grow the f**k up and get over yourself. If it was a us citizen being held in any other country's prison or detention center, and they died this way - you would be the first to jump up and call "bullshit" to that...oh no wait - maybe there is a double standard there - just not in the way you implied it...
  by: george2101436   08/14/2008 10:37 AM     
  business as usual  
this is simply business as usual for the US... any other country would be demonized beyond their beleif for it... therein the double standard lives.
  by: HAVOC666     08/14/2008 11:06 AM     
  his own fault  
"overstayed a visa years earlier"=Illegal = no rights. if he wanted medical treatment then he should of gone back home at the correct time or processed his green card correctly and on time. HIS OWN FAULT.
  by: damndave   08/14/2008 12:46 PM     
  Reading Comprehension..  
I suggest getting some.

The source says that he once overstayed his visa 'years earlier', that is NOT the same as currently being in the US on an expired visa. For all anyone knows, he might have overstayed a week six years ago. I suggest you pull your head out of you a**, or at least open your mouth so you can see enough to read properly.
  by: StarShadow     08/14/2008 01:46 PM     
  I have seen many die of cancer...  
it is a horrible way to die no matter where it hits.

He should have been looked at within a certain amount of time,he would have been showing sings of agony not only in reaction but visually, what they did was inhuman visa or not.

I wonder if this is the way God would have wanted him treated! @ lauriesman.

Any decent human being would have sympathy for even their worst enemy under those conditions, it is only when you see someone dying of spine cancer you will know.I have seen a beautiful very slowly die through this.

And believe me I know how much agony a spine can give so with the cancer as well, God help anyone.

I can not understand some of the cold indifference in some people, friend or not it still stuns me.


Indisputably heartless.

  by: captainJane     08/14/2008 02:39 PM     
says it all about America, if you aint got the money, tough shit you can rot! Makes no difference if his visa had run out, there is a duty to help someone in need. The USA should understand this as they are quick enough to ram it down the worlds throat when they go to war to help 'people in need'. But thats different, the US is only after the reward once the job is done and a huge pat on the back from the rest of the world. Sort out your own back yard first boys.
  by: philigs     08/14/2008 02:58 PM     

A: Hey, there's this broke ass immigrant here, he says he's sick.

B: Screw him, we're not a damn charity.

A: Hey did you hear the Iraqis are being oppressed??

B: Oh shit son, let's go liberate 'em!! YEEHAWWW!
  by: silentrage   08/14/2008 03:25 PM     
In some legal system, such amount of negligence can result in a conviction for certain types of murder/manslaughter.

But who cares about the legal system in such a situation. Who the hell is the cop to tell us if the cancer was advanced or treatable or not.

I hope no one you care about gets a cancer but if such an unfortunate event happens, I seriously hope they will be offered the option for some medicine radiation/chemo/etc.. anything other then just pills when the pain gets too much.

Denying medical care to someone in your care is a type of murder.
  by: kmazzawi     08/14/2008 03:47 PM     
  If you read above...  
@silentrage, you will see he made reference to Iraq.

If he was from China he may have been in a desperate situation and had good reason to be in the position he was in.
  by: captainJane     08/14/2008 04:35 PM     
  I'm sorry that...  
nobody can see the story for what it is. It isn't about who killed the MAN. It's not about his past regressions. It's about the fact that another HUMAN BEING asked for help regardless of where he was and what he had done and they couldn't even afford him the slightest bit of sympathy.
It wasn't the guards place or the wardens place to determine if he was faking. He deserved the right to be seen by a Doctor. Regardless of whether he was a citizen or not. Once we caged him he was no longer in a position to look after his own well being. Kind of the same way we are supposed to take care of our own dogs.
I guess I just grew up in a different day and time. I was taught in school, church, and at home that this country was so much better than any other because we had freedom and we treated everyone with respect. This is a country made up of immigrants.
  by: gws1968     08/14/2008 04:55 PM     
I know, I find it funny how there's all this talk about helping people in need, well there's a guy on your doorstep that has cancer, you tell him to **** off, but you go across half the world to help some other people who are all like, wtf?

The hypocrisy is staggering.
  by: silentrage   08/14/2008 05:07 PM     
I can't believe this story. There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. How could these people allow him to get this bad before he was finally allowed to see a doctor? It's unfortunate that we can't deport those who were responsible for this. At the very least they need to be posting on before all is said and done.
  by: amir8500   08/14/2008 05:12 PM     
  Alll who say "he would have died anyway"  
How can you sit there, comfortable in your chairs, and so callously brush aside this man’s death? You say just because he was ignored it doesn't constitute murder... Fair point.
But when you consider that the man was detained and therefore prevented from getting any help without their say so, it becomes a different matter. If he was at home, or wherever else, he could have sought medical help, and, I don’t think it’s a work of fantastical fiction to postulate that this man could still be alive, even if it’s only long enough to see his social security less family!
I'm sick of reading some glib comment trivialising a person’s death with some droll phrase, or sweeping statement that attempts to rationalise the travesty that some person has had to go through, every damn time I come on this site.
Patriotism is worse than religion, because it’s an accepted type of dogma. It’s patriotism that got America into Iraq, and it’s patriotism that’s causing people like Japh to brush this aside as if it were nothing.
  by: G1itch   08/14/2008 07:55 PM     
"Mr. Ng stayed on after it expired and applied for political asylum. He was granted a work permit while his application was pending, and though asylum was eventually denied, immigration authorities did not seek his deportation for many years."

So, uh... Yeah. I guess that wraps that up.

Two of my friends' dads have colon cancer. One was recently diagnosed and had surgery to remove it. All looks well. The other is definitely not going to make it as it's spread to his brain now. He was diagnosed some 8 years ago. I'm not sure if he would have survived if he died within months. But I'll leave that to the actual experts.

That's where I agree with Lauries. Where I disagree is the negligence. The staff didn't take his claims seriously and that broken spine definitely could have been remedied or prevented.

If I were that guy, I would have dropped the appeals ASAP to just get out of there.
  by: edya   08/14/2008 10:32 PM     
  In Many States This Is Manslaughter  
Not to mention cruel and unusual punishment.

Citizen or not he was a human being.

Illegal or not he was no less a person.

To those that helped him thank you, to the others I hope you never have to find yourself in a position to have to depend on the kindness of another, if you do I hope it is not by a person like you.

  by: ichi     08/14/2008 11:36 PM     
  hey whoa now  
Captain Jane, my ex-girlfriend - the one I took this name after - 's grandfather is about to die in pretty much exactly the same way. His body is riddle with cancer and there is nothing the doctors can do. Due to his age and advanced state of hardening of aterties, they've taken him off all medication since his body can't handle it. There is nothing anyone can do, and he is going to die in a two weeks to a month. As tragic as it is, and as heartbreaking as it is, I have to admit that there is no way to make this situation better beyond providing what comfort we can and putting his affairs into order and trying to make the best of it.

Of course I empathise with this man - but nothing I do is going to change the fact that his body was riddled with cancer, and that he was going to die in a very short amount of time. You can blame the institution for the suffering he endured, but you cannot blame them for his death. That is all I am saying.

In addition, I'm also pointing out that the inmate to doctor ratio in detention camps is abysmal. If you think going to a public hospital ER is bad, it's ten times worse in detention camps. Even more so since a majority of detainees ARE in poor health, many have fled their home countries because of illness and disease to seek treatment.

Yes, the system failed this man, and his suffering was both unfair and terrible. I deeply sympathise. To state, however, that this man died because the system failed to help him, is ridiculous.
  by: lauriesman     08/15/2008 12:37 AM     
A life time of defending my beliefs from attacks enables me to be emotionally engaged in something without surrendering my rationality and impartiality to those emotions. I can be objective and still empathise with the suffering of others.
  by: lauriesman     08/15/2008 12:43 AM     
I'm not sure how I missed that, thanks for pointing it out.
  by: StarShadow     08/15/2008 01:44 AM     
Complete hypothetical crap. We don't know how advanced or aggressive the cancer was when he first requested medical attention because he wasn't provided with it as he should have been.

Any further argument you make is specious.
  by: jendres     08/15/2008 04:36 AM     
He complained of back pain in April
He died August 6th

Time frame: Four months.

High risk of metastasis, very poor prognosis, often involves amputation to delay spread of cancer

Lung cancer:
High risk of metastasis, prognosis poor to very poor. Survival rate 1% - 5%. Average survival time from diagnosis: 20 months.

Liver Cancer:
As a primary cancer: surgery to remove cancer tumor.
As a secondary cancer: long term chemotherapy or radiotherapy
Prognosis average to good - although cancer may become inoperable, in which case palliative care is provided.

Hypothetical? Yes. Specious? No.
  by: lauriesman     08/15/2008 05:07 AM     
Osteosarcoma tumors damage bone structure and cause painful swelling and fractures. Removing a tumor requires cutting off the affected bone segment. Due to the nature of the cancer, metastasis is a very high risk and often amputation is the only option. Osteosarcoma in the spine is virtually untreatable.
  by: lauriesman     08/15/2008 05:18 AM     
I think you're missing the point. When Hiu Lui Ng complained of back pain, he should have been seen by a physician. It doesn't matter that it turned out that there would have been little to do for him besides make his death more comfortable and dignified.

There could be another Mr. Ng locked up somewhere who has a disease which would be fatal if it went untreated. If he's refused access to a physician, he'll die. That's why prisoners with medical complaints should be seen by physicians.

No, the U.S. didn't murder Mr. Ng. They just forced him to die without dignity, with just a handful of days to come to grips with what was happening to him, with next to no chance to put his orders in affair before he died.

It's just another sickening example of the mentality that has taken hold with so many government officials and employees -- if you're not American, you're scum.
  by: l´anglais     08/16/2008 11:40 PM     
Hey girl, Im not a god fearing person and if you are then thats your choice.
But, this is down right inhuman, all i can continue with at this moment , after reading the source is only in Ameriica. Make that a smaller area, The US of A.
I have seen many things in my life, spending several years in Northern Ireland. Castle Ray and stories i cant begin to tell. Well not here anyway.
But this has to beat all.I AM Discusted.
I do hope his family Sue the authoratis.
Sorry i spell as it sounds not look.DOo.
  by: steve2045     08/19/2008 05:59 PM     
  @ gws1968  
"We used to be a country that respected Human Rights, at least up until about 7 years ago".

That simply isnt true, pick a president, any one, and there will be thousands of incidents of torture, war, invasions, and intrusions on nations' sovereignty resulting on the infringement on the part of the USA on the human rights of innocent peoples of the world.
  by: dieu_7     08/19/2008 11:18 PM     
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