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12/18/2008 11:56 AM ID: 75589 Permalink   

Chrysler Running on Empty, Shutting Down All Production for 30 Days...

 

Chrysler recently told employees and the public that due to lack of consumer credit, and sales, that it will be shutting down all production for a whole month. This move affects 30 plants in the US, Canada and Mexico with a total of 46,000 off of work.

Normally they shut down there plants from the 24th of December to January 5th. The other 2 Detroit auto makers announced similar moves, GM is cutting 30% of its manufacturing capacity during a part of 2009 while Ford is shutting down for a extra week.

Chrysler said its employees will be paid during the time off but not at full wages.
Chrysler has been hit harder then most car makers, while dealers say they have been able to get people into dealers, most cannot get the credit to buy a new car.

 
  Source: money.cnn.com  
    WebReporter: cray0la Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  29 Comments
  
  The UAW still doesnt want to take cuts.  
 
must be nice to be off of work from the 24th to the 5th and get paid full wages and a nice bonus..

this has been the problem all along the UAW just cannot understand that they are running the big 3 into the ground.but they do not understand this and are hard headed about the issue in full.

while the head of the UAW sat in with talks about the bail out like he was a automaker himself. He was all for all the money they needed until it came down to the government asking the UAW to take wage cuts to get paid as similar car makers honda and toyota do, thats when the talks ended when the UAW simply said "NO" and basically walked out.

what does that say about them? while they sit there with a hand out they cannot take cuts themselves? do they not understand that its there fault the big 3 are in this situation today.

when they dont get there way they simply walk off and do not work, and they often do it at a time where the work is really needed or do it to a plant that makes the most money so they make sure they get the contract they want.

this is the problems with the unions today, they bog down companies with these demands that make the companies fall deeper and deeper into debt, and basically make the companies go bankrupt. When a union goes belly up because they cannot afford paying employees and making products, what happens? governors like blagojevic and such demand the bank up there credit limits and says if they dont the state not work with that bank period...
thats a damn joke, this is what got the banks in the situation there in now, when they finally make the decision to not lend to a company who can either not pay on time at the right amount or who arent credit worthy in the first place they get shot down.

the UAW better either take some pay cuts and realize that there causing these problems or they wont be getting a check at all when the big 3 ALL go belly up and file bankruptcy,

democrats better start realizing that the unions are the problems too, because all this bail out does is bail out the unions NOT the automakers.
 
  by: cray0la     12/18/2008 12:07 PM     
  thanks....  
 
for the right wing anti union editorial.
Labor costs at Chrysler are less than 10%. Its clear you have no clue about the current situation affecting the auto manufacturers but your uneducated opinion is welcome anyways.
 
  by: monstrddg   12/18/2008 12:31 PM     
  @cray0la  
 
I don't want to say this..God, I don't want to say this...but I agree with you...A LITTLE BIT! Unions have run their course, they were useful back in the 20's, but now the government regulates wages with things like minimum wage...they can go away now, because they are an excuse to be lazy sometimes. You probably shouldn't make $30/hr to sweep floors. HOWEVER, monstrddg certainly has a very valid point, and really his point actually has more to do with the actual story. Let them crash and burn, we'll start over....
 
  by: blac   12/18/2008 12:36 PM     
  @monstrddg  
 
ya ok..

so honda, toyota and nissans sales are also down 30-40%
but you dont see them begging for a hand out do you??

a typical BIG3 employee makes about 70$ a hour if you factor in healtcare pension and so on

the typical honda,toyota and nissan employee makes about 43$ a hour with everything factored in.

less then 10%? lmao not really.

i have no clear clue? then why is it, pleas do tell me..

because its certainly not the cars they make because GM makes more cars with over 30mpg then any car maker, they make good efficent cars, so what else could it be? OBVIOUSLY its the unions.
you must be a UAW worker ?
 
  by: cray0la     12/18/2008 12:59 PM     
  heres a comment  
 
from another post on here that has alot to do with this.

Gm is making great cars that the consumer wants, if you fail to see that then your just blind. They have more cars with a higher mpg then any car maker, on top of this most of fords line up is on the top of the list of the most safest vehicles.

ford also has a vehicle that gets 65mpg, its the ford festiva econetic,but due to the environmentalists restrictions and cost of importing it all here, it wont be produced here.

so like i said before if you think its the cars that the big 3 makes thats not what the consumer wants, think again, your blind on the issue.
 
  by: cray0la     12/18/2008 01:03 PM     
  @cray0la, and everyone  
 
True, GM & Crysler are making these these wonderful cars. Can anyone suggest why they're not being bought?

How do we get them to buy it. Is it a 'phase' thinh where it's just fallen out of favor, is it a price/reliability issue, is it a victim of an economic war?

What the heck is happening with the economy?
 
  by: redstain   12/18/2008 01:16 PM     
  @crayola  
 
UAW represents the workers (real people) and their wants and needs, not the companies'.

Its not a crime for a union to fight for a good deal for the workers - especially at a time where the company is asking the government to make it a good deal.

Nobody in their right mind would trust that when the government gives management billions of dollars, the management would willingly use that money to benefit the workers. No, they'll use it so they can maximise profits (which despite what you might think does not usually trickle down).

This is why we have unions, this is what unions are for and this is why everyone should be in a union.
 
  by: jamesmc   12/18/2008 03:20 PM     
  @jamesmc  
 
Actually both you and Cray0la are right.

While unions were formed for the reasons you've stated, that's not what's going on here.

It's a combination of horrible management (and if they are bailed out, or get restructured, obviously the management needs to go in favor of people who know what they are doing vs being there just to line their pockets), and dirty, corrupted unions.

Quite frankly, unions are just as bad in this case as the mismanagement of the big 3.

Another issue is...who buy's these cars? There are only so many people who will buy them (or can afford some of them) so part of it's also the fact that the product isn't in line with the rest of today's market.
 
  by: Jediman3     12/18/2008 03:59 PM     
  @crayola  
 
yes unions are part of the problem but the reputation (gas guzzlers needing frequent repairs) of the big 3 is a bigger problem,, they've produced shit and made made busines dcisions for years only to try to turn their act around on the brink of bankrupcy, while asia and europe beat them to the market by years. personally i don;t think anyone making over $20-30 should be in a union, at that point they are counter productive, in that i wholly agree, though unions do still have a purpose, largely in the jobs that never have unions, like most minimum wage jobs, though many companies will simply threaten to close entirely if they thing they'll be subjected to a union, one company i worked for did this in the past, i found this out as i was discussing with other workers about bringing union in, the day before the union would have come in, i was dismissed.

1 problem is that american cars are of typically such bad fuel efficency that they simply cannot be sold in some countries like china (there goes 1/5th of the global market) speakign of which in china the best sellers (for janurary 2008 are:

1.VW Jetta - 25,100 sales
2.VW Santana - 19,800
3.Hyundai Elantra - 18,000
4.Buick Excelle - 16,700
5.Tianjin Xia Li - 15,300
6.Chery QQ - 15,100
7.Toyota Corolla - 15,000
8.Toyota Camry - 12,600
9.Ford Focus - 12,300
10.VW Sagitar - 11,600

i'm guessing the 2 names i dont know are chinese cars, of the reamining 8, 3 are european, 3 are japanese, 2 are american. for india (list not available) the best seller is Maruti Suzuki's (an indian automakers with a japanese parent company) Alto, before that it was their maruti 800.


also take a look at this:

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/...

"HONDA CIVIC HYBRID

Fuel Consumption:
City City 4.7 L/100 km (60 mpg)
Hwy Hwy 4.3 L/100 km (66 mpg)

Annual Fuel Cost: $810
Annual Fuel Use: 900 L"

"Toyota Prius

"Fuel Consumption:
City City 4.0 L/100 km (71 mpg)
Hwy Hwy 4.2 L/100 km (67 mpg)
Annual Fuel Cost: $738
Annual Fuel Use: 820 L"

those are 2007/2008 models


most and least fuel efficent cars (2009 cars):
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/...

notice how almost everything on the list of efficency is assian or european, aside from the saturn sky and the pontiac solstice.

have a look at this 10 ten most fuel efficent cars of 2007:
http://www.edmunds.com/...

10 out of 11 (was supposed to be 10 but there was a virtual tie o nthe list) are japanese cars, the other 1 ranked 7th was the MINI cooper.

also posting and reposting the same tripe on every forum isn't going to make it true, like you blaming the environmentalist for the big 3's longstanding inability produce good vehicle ACROSS THE BOARD, not just the "best" special purpose vehicles, which is the only thing they've actually be leading in the the last 3 years at least. you dont see the imports on fur stopping because of PETA do you, environmentalist would WANT much more fuel effiecent vehicles, not the same gas guzzling crap mobiles the big 3 have been pedalling all this time up to their impending bankruptcy between their crappy reputation for crappy cars, the recession and excessive wages (which is across the board in many industries in north america, not just the automotive industry) it's no wonder the big 3 are going under.. the only real market in the US even canadian doesn want them and were making them too:

top 10 best selling cars in canada:
"1- Honda Civic (1) 70,838
2- Mazda3 (2) 48,236
3- Toyota Corolla (3) 40,474
4- Toyota Yaris (4) 34,424
5- Chevrolet Cobalt (5) 32,613
6- Toyota Camry (6) 28,218
7- Pontiac G5 (8) 25,211
8- Ford Focus (7) 24,013
9- Honda Accord (--) 22,102
10- Nissan Versa (--) 21,940"

japanese win hands down in canada by a margin greater than 3:1.

for the US its vastly different:

1. Ford F-Series: 411,926
2. Chevy Silverado: 357,893
3. Toyota Camry: 282,044
4. Toyota Corolla: 231,940
5. Honda Accord: 219,488
6. Dodge Ram: 214,569
7. Honda Civic: 201,652
8. Chevrolet Impala: 201,612
9. Nissan Altima: 164,717
10. Honda CR-V: 124,262
11. GMC Sierra: 115,185
12. Chevrolet Cobalt: 112,287
13. Toyota Prius: 110,565
14. Dodge Caravan: 110,507
15. Ford Focus: 109,876
16. Ford Econoline/Club Wagon: 106,045
17. Toyota Tundra: 105,990
18. Ford Escape: 104,645
19. Toyota-RAV4: 101,618
20. Honda Odyssey: 94,479

North american: 1.65 million
japanese: 1.33 million

in the US north american auto makers outsell japanese automakers by about 15-20%.

the worls single best selling cehicle producer is toyota... not one of the 3 3 , which is would be if that what the market (the consumers) wanted.

North American automakers are only the best if you compare total sales since the T-model, however they started going downhill in the early 80's.
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/18/2008 04:33 PM     
  @crayola - continued  
 

and finally the top 15 fuel efficent cars by consumer review:

http://www.consumerreports.org/...

notice how not a single one (as of june 2008) is a north american car, infact 14 out of 15 are japanese, the other one (mini cooper) is european.
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/18/2008 04:35 PM     
  several errors in a row  
 
***the worlds single best selling vehicle producer is Toyota... not one of the big 3 , which is would be if that what the market (the consumers) wanted."
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/18/2008 04:36 PM     
  @HAVOC666  
 
You're a bit off the mark.

First the Chinese market number don't mean what you think they mean. The Big 3 were very late into that market. VW was very early. Both the Jetta and the Santana (a model that probably doesn't exist outside of China anymore) are manufactured inside China through joint ventures between VW and Chinese companies. That makes those cars significantly cheaper. Contrary to your list, the Big 3 'luxury' brands are highly desired in China (Buick, Cadillac, etc.) i.e. there is no reputation issue at all.

Second, if you look closer at both Canadian and American lists, you will see that the divide is largely related to the type of car. Economy cars are a huge seller in Canada and this is not the case in the States. In the American list, the top Big 3 vehicles are trucks, and the first Big 3 sedan that comes up is the Impala.

What I'm getting at is that the problem isn't so much reputation, or perception. There's a concrete problem. The Big 3 is basically screwing up in Canada completely; they should be making their European offerings (like the European Focus, built on the same platform as the Mazda3) available here. In the States, they were doing fine by focusing on what sells in that market (big ass cars), but that entire market has gone sour, and the "big ass cars" segment especially so from first the high fuel prices and now the credit crisis and general down turn. Basically the Big 3 tied their business too strongly to one market and one segment and now they are paying for that (especially Chrysler; I can't even think of what their offerings are.) This is exasperated by higher labor costs, and, probably more significantly, their pension liability (I remember some article about how GM is now more of a financial services company than a car company/)
 
  by: bane39   12/18/2008 05:37 PM     
  hybrids not the answer  
 
First, Hybrids or fully electrical vehicles are not the answer BECAUSE the average driver in the US cannot afford new cars. At 47 years of age, I have never had a new car in my life. We have to buy decent used cars and hope to get the best mileage we can. If I could afford it, I'd probably buy a 3 liter 6 cyl BMW that gets 30 MPG hwy and from which I could expect decent longevity.

But I cannot afford that.

I think modified fuels are the answer, something that could work with existing engines with minor alteration to fuel injection systems and reprogramming the ignition control computer.

And Unions? Everybody else is jealous because the unions get their people a decent rate of pay. That's what is wrong with the economy in my opinion ... not mortgages failing, but working people not making enough money to pay those mortgages and other costs that have been escalating faster than pay increases.

Only the rich are making the money, and they're making too much of it, and they feel they have the right, like the folks from AIG with their expensive executive getaways, and that means other people get shafted to compensate. Let's get the financial breakdown of executive compensation packages for the automakers and see ... I see the union wages as miniscule, but the car companies are making a big stink out of it to gain this public perception of overpaid workers in order to force a wage cute and raise executive pay.

I could be wrong, but blaming the unions for everything just seems idiotic.
 
  by: bikermagi2   12/18/2008 06:16 PM     
  unions: scapgoating  
 
No one believes that there are any innocents in this scenario.

But highlighting UAW late juncture of the downfall of this auto industry is facile and cynical.
 
  by: redstain   12/18/2008 06:31 PM     
  at: bane39  
 
``That makes those cars significantly cheaper. Contrary to your list, the Big 3 'luxury' brands are highly desired in China (Buick, Cadillac, etc.) i.e. there is no reputation issue at all.``

i`m sure that at very least 2 out of 3 of the big 3 are also set up in china, likely all 3... if they got into a market late its still there fault. also the reputation problem is world wide (even in north america), i never implied it was in china only.

``Economy cars are a huge seller in Canada and this is not the case in the States. In the American list, the top Big 3 vehicles are trucks, and the first Big 3 sedan that comes up is the Impala.``

yup, americans sure do love their gas guzzlers thats for damn sure.

half (atleast 4 or 5, not sure about the impala) of the american cars are gas guzzlers in the true sense, half the cars on the list in total are japanese and half of the vehicles are trucks or vans, overall all lists combined they are always on the bottom when it comes down to north american, european and japanese cars... its no coicidences either.. overall in the US, north american automakers are selling more vehicles, but only by about 15-20%, and thats their own markets, whereas in other markets they are being out-sold a few time over, not just by 15-20%, like in canada by more than 3:1.

pension liability... i hope your not suggesting what i think you are, in that pensions are the problem... theyre not... pensions are paid into, by in part by wages and in part by corporate profits... that would be the same as saying a perosn who pays employment insurance (unemployment) that their employment insurance which theyve been paying into is a problem... its not, for the sheer fact that its ultimartely coming from the workers via held-back wage, tif they dont receive pension (which theyve paid into) then they;d owe their worker EACH a massive lump sum of which litterally would bankrupt them if they had to do it that way... pension are completely stable IF the buiness is stable... but north american auto industry is a least stable of ANY auto industry.. becasue as you basically said, they put all their eggs in one basket, and not only that it was the wrong basket, yet for 3 decades they kept filling up the same basket well now the basket has a big ass hole in it (the recession combines with fuel costs, which have recently come down to the cost of about 3-5 years ago) and their nest-egg (the profits) have been falling out of the basket.

the high labor costs, though is definately a problem in my opinion the average wage for genral automotive manufacturing work should be $30 per hour, $35 per hour at most, ive work in alot of diferrent fields of work including this (though where i worked the people actually working for the company rather than contracted in) started at about $18.

in my opinion the single biggest reason for this entire recession scenerio and all its effects are wage disparity... not unions in and of themselve, not pension (at all), not unemployment insurance or any easy scapegoat like that, and it effects every field of work.. wage disparity is across the board, and when only the rich can afford to spend in will ALWAYS cause a recession and a recesion will always be crippling to a mismanaged business as the big 3 are and have been for more than my lifetime thus far.

in my opinion also, people might as well not take pensions or unemployment insurance and insteade demand they receive all monies directly, because ultimely what will happen if the recession does turn into a depression and it likely will (as its only a hair away from going negative already) is things like social security, unemployment insurance and pensions will disappear, followed likely by some types of saving plans like RRPS or other valuable holdings, though theyd have to find different ground from with to take away peoples hard currency this time, back in the great depression they reclaimed all the gold to be rid of the gold standard, hence legal tender rather than backed by gold.
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/18/2008 06:50 PM     
  @HAVOC666  
 
You're missing a part of the whole pension thing. The amount that a pension pays out is more than the worker pays into it. First, the amount paid into by the worker is often supplemented by some amount from the company. More importantly though, the pension fund is not a massive mountain of cash in a vault somewhere. It's invested in the markets. In order for the company to pay the retired workers their pension, the fund has to perform reasonably. We all know what's happened to the markets lately. Then there is also the administrative costs involved in maintaining the fund.
 
  by: bane39   12/18/2008 07:12 PM     
  @jedi  
 
whos gonna buy these cars? Not in line with the currebt markets wants?

Thats all wrong and you could say the same for honda toyota nissan kia and hyunadi who also suffered 30-40 % drop in sales, it has nothing to do with there cars.
Havoc and all please take a look chevrolet.com and see why gm says chevy is the mvp in mpg, more cars that get over 30 mpg then any other car maker.
 
  by: cray0la     12/18/2008 07:15 PM     
  @bikermagi2  
 
"First, Hybrids or fully electrical vehicles are not the answer BECAUSE the average driver in the US cannot afford new cars."

how the hell do to think a car becomes used... IT WAS NEW at one point, SOMEONE afforded it.

"I think modified fuels are the answer, something that could work with existing engines with minor alteration to fuel injection systems and reprogramming the ignition control computer."

like e85, yeah i supported that... DID, but quite frankly its bullshit from start to finish and just another way to keep the oil industry on top by remaining dependant on an oputdate technological resource; oil.


"And Unions? Everybody else is jealous because the unions get their people a decent rate of pay. That's what is wrong with the economy in my opinion ... not mortgages failing, but working people not making enough money to pay those mortgages and other costs that have been escalating faster than pay increases."

lol you have no understanding of the monetary system or the economy, do you... the dollars is WORTHLESS BECAUSE some people make so little and other so much... its called wage disparity, it was the cause of EVERY economic recession known, infact the last time we had such wage disparity as we do now the great depression occured, if everyone made between 8-20 dollars the ecomon wouldn't in shambles because there wouldn't be any 2% super rich, or 90% poor... high wages devaluate the dollar, by requiring more money to be in circulation, the dollar being worth less means things cost more, when things cost more that are essential to living like food and shelter the people on the bottom (which with the US's wage disparity is 90%) have a harder and harder time just being able to take care of themselves.

and your solutuion is to devalute the dollar more... why not just eliminate the wage disparity from the top; you know where its causing the problem... instead you'd have them amplify the problem by further adding to inflation.

people not making enough money to support themselves is the byproduct of wage disparity, NOT the cause of it.

"but the car companies are making a big stink out of it to gain this public perception of overpaid workers in order to force a wage cute and raise executive pay."

they BOTH need to bee taking cuts, IF they want the economy to turn around, otherwise this will keep happening... the US suffers from insanity.

"insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

this happened in the 20's this happened in the late 70's, one lead to a great depression the other led to a big recession... and its happening again now, and if we used your line of thinking to "fix" the economy it would keep crashing every couple years for the same reason its been crashing every couple decades already.

"I could be wrong, but blaming the unions for everything just seems idiotic."

there's no-one going that, except crayola, though crayola has a history of being anti- anything that not in the intrest of big business, so its not unexpected from him in particular. though occasionally he will get a solid hit a few time, as he did with, the unions are definately a part of the problem but by no means are they the sole problem, the biggest problem is the recent product history, IE their reputation, which has fallen behind europe and japan is about every way possible except domestic sales and even thats not true for canada, they are even being outsold by a massive margin here.
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/18/2008 07:18 PM     
  @bane39 & crayola  
 
actually no, i already said that hence "pensions are paid into, by in part by wages and in part by corporate profits"

"the fund has to perform reasonably. We all know what's happened to the markets lately."

if they were investing smart, this would ALWAYS be the case, unless the dollars somehow become more valuable than gold.

pension nor market investments behind them are really that complicated


@crayola

"Havoc and all please take a look chevrolet.com and see why gm says chevy is the mvp in mpg, more cars that get over 30 mpg then any other car maker."

BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO... its been mandated to them by the government to raise their standards by a certian year to a certian level (35MPG by 2020, which ironically is around what japan's already has been, by 2015 theirs will be 42, its about 43 china as of this yeas [2008])... try a better standard... how about 60MPG, who lead that... certianly ain't the big three... nice try though... intellectually dishonest or perhaps ignorant, but it was a nice try...

and of course they're going to say they are the leader in feild (automotive manufacturing)... but there not, yeah they might have more cars (in sheep nuber of models) over a particularly low standard , but how do they fair against the standards in japan who even only 2 years ago were getting on average 15-40% better fuel economy... speaking of which how many vehicles do the big three have that get over 70...

Fuel Consumption for 2009 toyota prius:
City City 4.0 L/100 km (71 mpg)
Hwy Hwy 4.2 L/100 km (67 mpg)

does the big three have ANYTHING to compete with this class, keep in mind that the deisel ford you keep mentioning doesn't even fall into this category because its a deseil (different fuel).
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/18/2008 07:51 PM     
  @jamesmc  
 
I'm sure they're great when you're all pro union and such.

I'll tell ya I'm in a company right now who's contract is in the middle of negotiations for services to our very large, very anti-union bill payer... A company who owns everything we work in and around on a day to day basis...

Now add a union like the teamsters who are currently out-right lying to our co-workers saying that they'll get more power for less work, shift changes and more pay than our company gets for us to do for this service job. On top of this... Being a third party company who's contract is on the table means that the big guys in the company that hires us and pays our wages can fire our entire site with a 60 day notice because they are our customer and not our direct bosses...

Yeah I <3 unions... Because I'd rather talk to someone who does nothing but hear complaints all day and gets paid oodles of money for it... or the boss who can actually make a difference when I do my job and do it well.

No... not everyone should be under a union. Try asking the drivers of Wegmans, rated number 2 job in Pennsylvania about if they wanna go union...

Unions are big business...
 
  by: pcfreak   12/18/2008 08:13 PM     
  Yup  
 
A lot of plants are shutting down for different amounts of time. Honda in Ohio will be shut down for a few weeks in Jan. and are already letting people take days off no penalty.
 
  by: rogeratvfan   12/19/2008 08:18 AM     
  @havoc  
 
for someone that does not drive period you sure have alot to say about GM'S reliability..

i OWN a newer gm car and truck, a dodge, and have owned different kinds of them for YEARS. like all cars they have there quirks and need repairs, like a honda or toyota.
recently toyotas quality has fallen off the mark while gm and ford have been on the increase.

you keep talking about japan and how there cars are so fuel efficient but you fail to mention that they make SUVs that get shitty MPG too.

and my point about gm being the "MVP IN MPG" is that they HAVE been making products that consumers want, you may quote there gas guzzlers and stuff but on the top of that list is big pickup trucks that are the top of there sales. they make a product the people want,its pretty simple and as i said before if you cannot see that then your blind, the are answering market demands.

if you look above me roger says Honda is also laying off people and so on, so its across the board, if GM and the other 2 just got rid of these obnoxious costs of the union and so on they would be in profits, they have to charge more for there cars then other competitors like honda and toyota because they have more union costs and things associated like that.

ive been in the new malibu and its a great car, it blows the accord and camry out the water. but i think its more expensive then the two for the very reason i listed.

today im hearing over news networks that the white house is coming out with a structured bankruptcy/pre packaged one for the big 3.

there on the right track with that.

i personally think ford is fine, they have been downsizing for years now and been in there whatever you call it restructing, they have said they dont need as much as gm or dodge, if any at all.

i think gm should make sure they close alot of dealers, they have too many dealers, way more then toyota and honda.

they should also sell off saturn,hummer(as much as i like the hummers), saab.

just doing these things above would greatly diminish there costs, now take in effect doing things like downsizing or getting out from under the pensions then they would be profitable fast.
 
  by: cray0la     12/19/2008 02:02 PM     
  and  
 
let me say that when chrysler isnt working for these 2 extra weeks there getting 85-90% there wages.

boooooooooooo hooooooooooo

wish i could get off for 4 weeks and get paid the same amount on top of a special holiday pay.
 
  by: cray0la     12/19/2008 02:09 PM     
  @cray0la  
 
To a certain degree I feel ya but you have to keep in mind wages are actually one of the lowest costs there are when it comes to running a business... even less when you don't take into account upper management wages.

The costs of production and raw material far out way the costs of paying employees. That's a known fact, you can ask just about anyone with Logistics training or APICS certification.

Another thing, why should the UAW take a cut? Management isn't willing to, I bet you an arm and a leg that just about all the folks in upper management have MULTI million dollar severance packages, vacation packages, health packages, etc.
 
  by: FreakKeeper     12/19/2008 03:52 PM     
  @crayola and freakkeeper  
 
"for someone that does not drive period you sure have alot to say about GM'S reliability..

i OWN a newer gm car and truck, a dodge, and have owned different kinds of them for YEARS. like all cars they have there quirks and need repairs, like a honda or toyota.
recently toyotas quality has fallen off the mark while gm and ford have been on the increase."

and goes beyond GM, north american cars are NOTORIOUS for their unreliability... keeping driving those break-down, gas guzzling motorbeasts all you want... buts thats their reputation, thats what they are... i've seen a great many people buy north american cars only to laugh them because their cars are breaking down.. well not shit they fall apart they're made like cheap toys. if i was to ever buy a north american car it would have to be pre-1980's, before they went the dogs.

"you keep talking about japan and how there cars are so fuel efficient but you fail to mention that they make SUVs that get shitty MPG too."

indeed they do, but i how your not expecting their SUV's to match their cars, i just wont happen... EVER, the sheer weight of an SUV makes this impossible... but they are better than american SUV's pretty much across the board if not totally, though this is the one area that the american auto industry does actually have an edge with some of their vehicles, and thats less vehicles than you have fingers. i praise the japanese auto industry for their stride in efficency, as should you and everyone, they simply make more efficent cars, thats a fact.

"and my point about gm being the "MVP IN MPG" is that they HAVE been making products that consumers want, you may quote there gas guzzlers and stuff but on the top of that list is big pickup trucks that are the top of there sales. they make a product the people want,its pretty simple and as i said before if you cannot see that then your blind, the are answering market demands."

they make what a SMALL part of the market wants, hence they only do better in a few countries, and even canada, part of their domestic market isn't one of them. so NO they are NOT making what the market wants, they are making SOME of US wants, and negating the majority of the market, and tthey've been outsold in part for that that reason, reliability and cost are also other primary issues. i'm not blind, your just not seeing the whole market... only one small corner of it, the VERY SAME MISTAKE that the big 3 have been making for 3 decades.

"if you look above me roger says Honda is also laying off people and so on, so its across the board, if GM and the other 2 just got rid of these obnoxious costs of the union and so on they would be in profits, they have to charge more for there cars then other competitors like honda and toyota because they have more union costs and things associated like that."

yeah but the big 3 are laying people off because they cant afford them, the foreign automaker are mostly laying people off because they simply dont need them for production right now due to the recession causing car sales to take a dive.

but you have an undeniable point about unions and in relation the obscene wages they force companies to provide driving up the product cost completely disproportionarly to the cost of living and normal wages.

"i personally think ford is fine, they have been downsizing for years now and been in there whatever you call it restructing, they have said they dont need as much as gm or dodge, if any at all."

ford is also the biggest and oldest of them too and yes they've been downsizing for years... buts in canada its largely because they are being outsold buy most forign automakers, and by a large margin and its safe to say this is probably true in most markets aside from the US; which they are already in danger of losing to japan, which would mean they dont dhold an advantage over japan in probably any nations market.


@freakkeeper
"Another thing, why should the UAW take a cut? Management isn't willing to, I bet you an arm and a leg that just about all the folks in upper management have MULTI million dollar severance packages, vacation packages, health packages, etc."

the managemment and CEO's/owners should be the FIRST people to take the cuts, but they are always the last in reality (capitalism at its finest...lol) ... autoworkers simply dont need unions... MOST union work is completely pointless, the only time you EVER need a union is you have consistantly unsafe work conditions (we also have government agencies for this) or is you have a predatory employer who is demanding too much work for too little pay... but in reality unions ENCOURAGE an increasingly lazy workforce; "they can't fire me i'm in a union", happenes all the time, infact the last unionized place i worked for could have let morethan half of their workforce go, if they had people that spent all working hour ACTUALLY working, rather than talking or finding ways to work slower. they encourage wage disparit
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/19/2008 04:46 PM     
  (continued)  
 
...they encourage wage disparity what they are paid $70-75 an hour to do, is no different than job i've done making only $10 or $12 an hour for, and general labour at ford hold less qualification for factory work than i do as a trained, but uncertified welder and certified forklifter... yet most welder and forlifts are making more then 3 or 4 times LESS than they are dispite being MORE qualified. and finally they drive up the costs of the final product, in most cases (as when union are no longer needed) unnesessarilly.

i can definately see where both of you are comming from in this especially in this point from you (freakkeeper):

"The costs of production and raw material far out way the costs of paying employees. That's a known fact, you can ask just about anyone with Logistics training or APICS certification."

although its misleading... because wages (again unionized workplaces usually) mine (or otherwise exract the natural resources) and produce the steel (or whatever the raw material is made into to be later sold to the automotive sector... both of these pre-comsumer product production stage are where the cost from the materials come from and the cost of those are a result of again high wage, largely from being unionized, and having the union held the companies hostage for more money
 
  by: HAVOC666     12/19/2008 04:47 PM     
  I've worked on nuclear submarines  
 
for 33 years now. Union shops there.
My biggest complaint, which has been echoed by numerous members of lower management over the years, is that outstanding highly motivated people cannot be singled out for their efforts (merit raises, etc) without the company having to pay the same amount to every union member, even if they are at the ass-end of the ability ladder and contributing the bare minimum to the finished product, and the survival of the company that hired them.

Soon everyone is brought down to that level. The most skilled mechanic is being payed at the same rate as the guy sweeping the floors. No incentive to go that extra step, improve processes, offer suggestions that result in reduced production costs.

Meanwhile the top forty people there are raking in millions of dollars for producing nothing. Capitalism at its worst.

This is why the bill for building just one Seawolf class submarine exceeded two billion dollars.

Sounds just like Wall Street, doesn't it? We all know what happened there.
 
  by: white albino   12/20/2008 11:44 AM     
  Union benefits  
 
I heard for EACH union member they are being paid an estimated $74/hr including wages and benefits. That's a lot of money doing only one specific task. Of course the UAW will not concede for a lower pay 'cause it'll cut into their own benefits paid for by membership.
 
  by: aysos   12/24/2008 09:44 AM     
  @havoc  
 
i keep getting a laugh about your constant talk about how northamerican automakers make gas guzzlers, but when you look at the cars they make they have more cars with over 30mpg then any automaker right now.

on top of this i drive a GM with a northstar v8 motor and get 22 mpg in the city and over 25mpg on the hwy, thats pretty good for a v8 and i consider that far from a gas guzzler.

you say that its the big 3s mistake that they make suv and pickups that are "gas guzzlers" but at the same time in the numbers you listed north american BUYS these trucks and suvs and the top of the list you provided has a "gas guzzling" pick up as its number 1 seller.

about the prius talk, you say GM cant come close to that mark, take a look at the cobalt XFE it gets 36mpg a gallon and thats a NON hybrid.
more hybrids are coming out for the big 3 including the escalade hybrid that gets over 22mpg in the city, thats pretty incredible for a big suv.

and on another note i have had no problems with my gm besides regular maintenance, so much for that bad reliability you speak of, thats what they have a warranty for
if im not mistaken its 5 year 100k miles.

you keep quoting that gm has gas guzzlers but sorry to burst your bubble but every auto maker has suvs and gas guzzlers so to quote them as making nothing but unreliable gas guzzlers is pretty wrong when they have more cars that get over 30 mpg then any other automaker.
 
  by: cray0la     12/24/2008 09:58 AM     
 
 
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