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12/29/2008 05:48 PM ID: 75815 Permalink   

Study: Purity Rings Don't Work

 

A new study has found that virginity pledges don't work. The teens who take them are just as likely to have sex, are less likely to practice safe sex, and are more likely to lie about it later.

The study found that virginity pledgers have sex at similar ages to those who don't take a pledge. Their sexual practices which involve anal, vaginal, and oral sex are similar to non-pledging teens. They are just as likely to have an STD.

The study also included a follow up five years later and discovered that pledgers were 10% less likely to use condoms or other forms of birth control. They also found that 80% of pledgers lied and claimed never to have taken a pledge.

 
  Source: news.yahoo.com  
    WebReporter: ZCT Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  54 Comments
  
  ,.,.,.,  
 
They're next plan is to give them rings similar to the rings green lanterns use that just pops out a hand to separate the two. ;p

Desire-1 Pledges-0
 
  by: splicer   12/29/2008 06:25 PM     
  Another Faith Based Plan  
 
founded on enforced ignorance.
Can't understand why ignorance does not work. Oh well just keep trying ignorance until it does.

You got to love these idiots.
 
  by: ichi     12/29/2008 06:59 PM     
  So these people are  
 
Politicians in training... that's interesting. I always wondered how someone who knew that their earlier actions were recorded (and even being tracked via a study) could later flat out claim that no such thing was ever said/done. The only other proof of training to be a politician would be to find out how many of the virginity pledge participants had sex with same-sex partners then condemn others for it.
 
  by: opinionated   12/29/2008 07:05 PM     
  Anal, really?  
 
Kids these days. *sigh*
 
  by: erasedgod   12/29/2008 09:53 PM     
  @erasegod  
 
Don't you read short news? Anal sex is on the rise, specially among pre and teenagers
 
  by: demonh8   12/29/2008 10:43 PM     
  I'm curious...  
 
Where exactly do they wear this 'purity ring'?
 
  by: valkyrie123     12/30/2008 12:05 AM     
  That's  
 
the problem. They're wearing the ring in the wrong place.
 
  by: elzorro   12/30/2008 12:16 AM     
  @erasedgod & valkyrie123  
 
There's a reason they've gone away from presenting those who partake in virginity pledges with the more traditional purity beads!
 
  by: opinionated   12/30/2008 12:40 AM     
  Don't Tell Me Where They Put Those Beads.  
 
N/T
 
  by: ichi     12/30/2008 12:47 AM     
  For the Muslims...  
 
It works if you tell them about the punishment. It's one of the gravest sins in Islam, next to murder and disrespecting your parents.
 
  by: Pakistani   01/03/2009 12:30 AM     
  @Pakistani  
 
Excuse me if I don't really accept draconian religious punishments such as public execution or flogging as proof that a concept is working.

However the fact that pre-marital sex still goes on, despite the existence of a largely sexist medieval outlook on life, shows out out of step religious regulation is with the reality of the modern world.

Oppression of people and especially women is not the answer. Neither is religious extremism.
 
  by: ZCT     01/03/2009 02:22 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
I didn't mean the punishment in this life, I meant about the punishment of the afterlife.
I live in the west and there are very few Muslims that I know who had pre-martial sex.
But the flogging and the stoning punishment work also; I only wish that more countries would implement these laws, though they are outrightly draconian.
 
  by: Pakistani   01/03/2009 03:27 AM     
  @Pakistani  
 
“I didn't mean the punishment in this life, I meant about the punishment of the afterlife.”

- With all due respect, you have no idea what will happen in an afterlife, or if there will even be an afterlife.

It is not really up to the government to enact laws based on their belief of what an afterlife might contain.

Mathematically you are probably wrong anyway. Billions of humans have lived and died on this Earth, Islam is but one human belief system among many that exist now and thousands of belief systems that have gone before. Who are you to claim to know better than billions of people who think they are correct?

“I live in the west and there are very few Muslims that I know who had pre-martial sex.”

- Well I see this as a major flaw in society. Sex is part of a loving relationship; it is part of compatibility between two people. To jump into a marriage and hope that everything is going to work out is as stupid as buying a car or house you have never seen. All it leads to is unhappiness within the relationship. Sadly the way this is often addressed in Muslim culture is to simply make the woman subservient, and take away her rights. In Saudi Arabia an unhappy wife is not going to leave her husband; she’s not even allowed to drive a car. So she is trapped in a relationship she doesn’t want with a man she doesn’t like. Far from ideal.

“But the flogging and the stoning punishment work also; I only wish that more countries would implement these laws, though they are outrightly draconian.”

- Sorry but that’s just stupid. Take a look around the world at the kinds of countries where public executions take place. They are backwards crappy places, where at least half of the population are severely oppressed, and the rest are oppressed a little less.

I’ll take freedom any day, rather than deal with an oppressive government and culture that flogs and executes people for innocuous behavior.

If you are indeed from Pakistan you’ll no doubt be familiar with recent news stories of teenage girls being stoned or otherwise beaten or killed, often as punishment for being raped. Under many extreme interpretations of religious law the victim (if female) receives no justice at all.

So you can keep your medieval culture, and I’ll hang on to my freedom. Happy in the knowledge that my wife has equality in the eyes of the law, even if she chooses to leave me.
 
  by: ZCT     01/03/2009 05:38 PM     
  WOW Biased much???  
 
this is so stupid! me and tons of my other friends have purity rings, and we do that because we want to save ourselves for someone that we're married to and in love with. Not all teenagers with purity rings have sex, and i'm pretty sure that this biased study didn't include all the teenagers with purity rings who are really committed to their promise. True Love Waits
 
  by: bcbandchick   03/19/2009 02:28 AM     
  @bcbandchick  
 
Naïve much?

Sorry to rain on your parade, but you have been brainwashed by those wishing to impose their moral values on you. Sadly, you lack the personal maturity to see though this conditioning.

If you really want to find true love, you will do so by getting to know someone really well before you promise them, your families, and (presumably) God, that you are going to be with them forever.

With the best will in the world, you can't truly know a partner until you have lived with them and enjoyed intimate relationships.

It is beyond stupid to think that you can go on a few dates, have a bunch of discussions with someone, and then KNOW that they are THE ONE.

Sexuality is an important part of a committed partnership. Simply hoping that you will be sexually compatible with someone is a big hope.

Allow me to share an example with you. I once dated a girl who seemed very cool. She was good looking, smart, fun to be with, we had some great dates. When we had our first kiss, I discovered she kissed a little bit like a snake. It was very weird.

Needless to say, it didn't work out. And it never would have, even if we had 'saved ourselves' for marriage.

Similarly some people have weird and incompatible sexual habits.

But even ignoring sex for a moment, there's the whole living together thing that is also frowned upon by the abstinence movement.

Have you ever heard stories of life long friends going off to college for the first time and rooming together? One semester in they are at each others throats, and one is requesting a transfer.

If you can know someone for maybe 12 years, and then discover you hate them after a few months of living together, don't you think the same is possible with a couple who have dated for a year and then move in together after marriage?

Marriage is not magic. It doesn't fix bad habits, incompatibility issues, personality conflicts, and other problems.

You have been spoon fed this notion that marriage is some wonderful God-given wonderland, where a committed couple learns to love each other. But reality is not like that at all.

Sorry but wearing a purity ring is a sign you are gullible. It is a sign of immaturity (as evidenced by the fact you don't see adults with any kind of sense wearing them).

The research does show that they are not effective at achieving their goal of creating sexual abstinence.

Bottom line, time to grow up and live in the real world. Relationships based on hope may work, but you are far better off actually finding out if you are compatible with a potential mate by living with them for a while, and having sexual relations with them long before you agree to eternity together.

You'll understand this concept one way or another eventually. Either after one or more painful failed marriages, or simply by maturing and realizing that God does not magically create marriage and soul mates between strangers.

 
  by: ZCT     03/19/2009 04:29 AM     
  Not True  
 
@ZCT

First of all for you to say that no one can have a successful marriage without having sex first is a lie! I know a handful of couples who waited until they were married to have sex and their marriages are stronger than most.

To say that people couldn´t have a strong marriage unless they have sex first is based on the fact that you feel you couldn´t, but don´t put all people in the same boat with you.

On another note there are many women who will tell you that they wish they would´ve waited to have sex.

Your one of those people who tell kids just have sex with someone their in love with or care deeply about. The problem with that is teenage girls fall in love more than teenage guys because guys tend to want one thing and girls want more.

Even when guys get older sadly most of them still are the way the were when they were teenagers. Sex is always on their mind and thats why most relationships fail.

How many times have you heard a woman say "All he wanted was sex!" Women tend to frown upon that, but your right sex is a very important tool for any relationship to work but when its a marriage if sex is off you can´t just run off, you have a committment to that person "For richer, poorer, sickness, health etc." You have to make it work...NO YOU MAKE IT WORK!

The same goes for living together your right someone can be friends their whole life and live together and get on each others nerves but thats the same thing with family.

If your older sibling moves out and a few years later lets you move in with them, they as well as yourself are going to have certain traits that weren´t there when you lived under your parents roof and you have the learn to live with them again, you have to learn to compromise, correct?

So if two people date for a year and don´t have sex and don´t live together, then get married they have to learn to live together and if sex isn´t up to what they´ve put in their mind it would be, then you work at it!

Do you think a couple who have been married for ten years have worse sex then a couple who have been dating for six months?

The couple who have been together for years know each others bodies alot better than the six month couple (if they don´t thats just sad) but again if the six month couple feel that the sex isn´t good then they just call it a quits theres nothing making them stay there isn´t a reason to stay so love was never there to begin with.

Lets face it love is a word that more than a majority of people say just because the other person wants to hear it not because they really mean it and they tend to keep lying to themselves and there partner.

Why is it so wrong for teenagers to want to promise themselves, their family, God or whatever reason they have to make that promise to themselves? Are you trying to have sex with them?
I take it no your not, so why do you care? If every teen in america wanted to save themselves for marriage, why would it matter to you?

You say that living together and sex have to come before marriage...for you maybe it does but not for everyone, we all are different. What works for you might not work for someone else and what works for them might not work for you.

Weather you live with someone before marriage or after you marry them you still have to deal with them and learn to live with them.

Do you think a man who throws his clothes wherever or doesn´t clean the kicthen is going to be any different the first month his girlfriend lives with him compared to the first month his wife does? No, she has to get use to the way he is and work with him but again if its just a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship then she can just say it´s over and leave, there is no committment to stay. A marriage has to work together.

Sex brings more problems than solutions people even try to use sex to fix problems and it doesn´t work. Love is a stronger tool than sex and sad to say but most people don´t know what love is but think they do, so most relationships don´t work out.

Brainwashed? No they just want what they want just as you do. I´m 28 and I wish I would have had the strength to wait but I didn´t and as far as sex has gone I´ve had sex with a handful of women and didn´t love one of them, in fact I was only in a relationship with one of them and didn´t love her either but they didn´t love me either it was just sex.

I commend those who want to wait and who aren´t afraid to say that they want to commit to someone for the rest of their lives, their not afraid of committment and they want one person.

Don´t say that its stupid because they don´t see adults with purity rings on because alot of adults are either married or their not virgins anymore (but doesn´t mean they are happy they didn´t wait) but either way ofcourse they wouldn´t be wearing them.

Bottom line if someone wants to wait for sex theres no harm in it and it doesn´t mean their going to have failed marriages before they find love.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 12:35 AM     
  @myth7777 1/4  
 
> I last discussed this a year ago, so excuse me if I have forgotten some of my points. But I´ll just respond to your epic post as best I can.

"First of all for you to say that no one can have a successful marriage without having sex first is a lie!"

> Not only is it a lie, it´s also not what I said. I´m sure there are many successful marriages between two virgins. Equally, there are many successful adults who were molested as children, but that doesn´t make molestation the ideal.

"I know a handful of couples who waited until they were married to have sex and their marriages are stronger than most."

> Seriously? That´s like making the argument that, ´some guy in a bar told me...´ We are talking here in generalities not with a handful of people you happen to know.

"To say that people couldn´t have a strong marriage unless they have sex first is based on the fact that you feel you couldn´t, but don´t put all people in the same boat with you."

> Again, I´m not really arguing that they can never have a strong marriage without premarital sex, I´m merely suggesting that imposing this ´moral´ position on young people with devices such as purity rings is bullshit. Some people will choose to abstain and some won´t. I don´t think the government should be paying for school programs that push this kind of agenda. Let people make up their own mind, and don´t waste my tax dollars trying to legislate morality.

"On another note there are many women who will tell you that they wish they would´ve waited to have sex."

> I can´t really debate with you if you are going to talk in vague generalities. It´s meaningless nonsense.

"Your [sic] one of those people who tell kids just have sex with someone their [sic] in love with or care deeply about. The problem with that is teenage girls fall in love more than teenage guys because guys tend to want one thing and girls want more."

> Don´t tell me what kind of person I am please. And I´m not interested in your sexist statements. I´m surprised you didn´t tell me that women LIKE ironing.

"Even when guys get older sadly most of them still are the way the were when they were teenagers. Sex is always on their mind and thats why most relationships fail."

> I can hardly keep up with your ridiculous assertions. Now you are telling me how most men are and why most relationships fail. Care to provide some actual citations here?
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 01:40 AM     
  @myth7777 2/4  
 
"How many times have you heard a woman say "All he wanted was sex!" Women tend to frown upon that, but your right sex is a very important tool for any relationship to work but when its a marriage if sex is off you can´t just run off, you have a committment to that person "For richer, poorer, sickness, health etc." You have to make it work...NO YOU MAKE IT WORK!"

> Unfortunately here you are simply pushing the horrific notion of getting stuck in a marriage and then fighting to make it work, even if you or the other party doesn´t really care.

Remember the issue here is that you have a choice. You could move in with a partner, sleep with them, and then get married a few years later when you are sure it´s what you both want. Or you can date some person for a bit, and then promise your friends, your god, and your partner that you are going to be with them forever, despite never having lived with them or slept with them.

I could buy a car without having driven it, and learn to tolerate it. But is that the ideal?

The only reason this issue of marriage even exists is because of archaic values and religious dogma.

"Do you think a couple who have been married for ten years have worse sex then a couple who have been dating for six months?"

> Clearly it depends on the couple. But if you want a generality here, sex after ten years of marriage is safe and natural, whereas sex six months into a relationship is still likely to have that ´new car´ feel. So it all depends what you are in to.

"The couple who have been together for years know each others bodies alot better than the six month couple (if they don´t thats just sad) but again if the six month couple feel that the sex isn´t good then they just call it a quits theres nothing making them stay there isn´t a reason to stay so love was never there to begin with."

> Sure, the ten year couple know each other better, but sometimes that leads to complacency and routine as opposed to the excitement of a new relationship.

If you´re trying to say that the six month couple might have had long term possibilities if they had not had sex before marriage, I call BS on that argument. After all, if they broke up after six months, it was probably for the best. In your world, they marry, still feel like breaking up after six months, but now they feel obligated to stay together because they are married, and no one likes to get divorced in the first year. They may ultimately learn to tolerate one another, but what kind of life is that?
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 01:41 AM     
  @myth7777 3/4  
 
"Why is it so wrong for teenagers to want to promise themselves, their family, God or whatever reason they have to make that promise to themselves?"

> Well as the original article found, the reality is that these ´promises´ don´t actually work. So how about they just live a good and responsible life, and not have people telling them to make purity pledges when they are just kids.

"Are you trying to have sex with them?"

> Only the hot ones.

"I take it no your not, so why do you care? If every teen in america wanted to save themselves for marriage, why would it matter to you?"

> I question their motives. I think that external forces such as government, schools, and religion are trying to push them to make this decision; and I think that it is a bad decision that ultimately does more harm than good.

In the original article you will note that people who take the pledge are less likely to use birth control, and other than that are similar to non-pledging teens when it comes to sexual practices and STD rates. So what exactly have we achieved?

"You say that living together and sex have to come before marriage...for you maybe it does but not for everyone, we all are different. What works for you might not work for someone else and what works for them might not work for you."

> See the difference is I am not mandating a behavior, I am suggesting freedom. You, and those who promote these stupid purity rings are actually doing harm, as this study shows.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 01:41 AM     
  @myth7777 4/4  
 
"Brainwashed? No they just want what they want just as you do. I´m 28 and I wish I would have had the strength to wait but I didn´t and as far as sex has gone I´ve had sex with a handful of women and didn´t love one of them, in fact I was only in a relationship with one of them and didn´t love her either but they didn´t love me either it was just sex."

> That´s an interesting confession. But it has nothing to do with this argument. Are you really suggesting that if you had it all to do again, you wish you were a 28 year old virgin? Do you think your wife would appreciate your clumsy virginal fumblings?

"Bottom line if someone wants to wait for sex theres no harm in it and it doesn´t mean their going to have failed marriages before they find love."

> I agree, that if someone strongly believes in waiting then that is their business. However, I object to others imposing this behavior upon others. And you say there is no harm in purity pledges, but as this study shows, there is. Pledges being 10% less likely to use protection is a big deal.

Ultimately, I think you´re being a hypocrite. You are preaching the wonder of marriage, and the great idea of being a virgin on your wedding night. Yet you chose not to do that. So given that you made the choices you did, isn´t it a case of do as I say not as I did?
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 01:42 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
I´m merely suggesting that imposing this ´moral´ position on young people with devices such as purity rings is bullshit.

-You say that but what about the ones that the purity rings work on, it´s not crap to those people and those parents who don´t want to worry about their teenagers coming home with an std or expecting a child, why shouldn´t they push it on them? You make it seem like the government just came up with the idea when its the parents who want their kids to live a different way, than even they did. Do you have kids?
Cause if you do I´m sure you don´t just let your kids do whatever they want, you want your kids to live a certain way right?
The government is just helping parents get the point across and it doesn´t hurt when younger kids have their older siblings to look up to and see that their life is just a good without sex and in some cases better.

Let people make up their own mind,

-This is true and they do make up their own mind, they don´t have to wear a purity ring but if it´s going to reach a few then I say go for it.

"On another note there are many women who will tell you that they wish they would´ve waited to have sex."

> I can´t really debate with you if you are going to talk in vague generalities. It´s meaningless nonsense.

-I think you think I´m talking about only the women I´ve met before. That´s not just women I´ve met but reports I´ve read, reports I´ve seen. I´m not just going on some idea of only things I´ve experenced.

> Don´t tell me what kind of person I am please. And I´m not interested in your sexist statements. I´m surprised you didn´t tell me that women LIKE ironing.

-Are you not? I think it´s funny that you think I have a sexist tongue. When that statement doesn´t come from me it comes from women again not just women I´ve met. I´m all for women waiting til their married to have sex. Which mean men would have to keep it in their pants, but I´m I wrong do teenage girls not fall in love fast then men and based on how many girls are left with babies, broken hearts, tears etc. Thats because men play with girls emotions and once they know girls think their in love just as much as they are men take what they want and leave.

> I can hardly keep up with your ridiculous assertions. Now you are telling me how most men are and why most relationships fail. Care to provide some actual citations here?

-Again? Ok well how many men do you know that are single parents? How many men actually give a crap about the woman after sex? It´s already been proven that men think about sex more than women and that does hurt relationships. I´ve never heard men going women are dogs.

> Unfortunately here you are simply pushing the horrific notion of getting stuck in a marriage and then fighting to make it work, even if you or the other party doesn´t really care.

-First of all that means neither one of you actually cared anyway because if you actually are in love with that person you´d fight for them no matter what. You say "getting stuck" that sounds like someone who doesn´t want committment, can´t commit or is afraid of committment ( I mean I don´t want to tell you who you are ) but that´s what it sounds like to me.

Are you married? Have you ever been? Have you ever been close to getting married?
Marrages is a serious committment and those who are afraid of it look at it as "getting stuck". Nobody gets in a marriage and it´s easy as I´m sure you said and I agree it´s not easy so its work and work and work no one gets in a marriage and skate thru it, it´s hard work that takes committment.

Or you can date some person for a bit, and then promise your friends, your god, and your partner that you are going to be with them forever, despite never having lived with them or slept with them.

-So why would anyone date someone for a short period of time then make that promise? My goodness do you think people just date for five months and say hea I wanna get married...thats just silly to think people do that. People can date for a few years not live together and still find out little things about each other talk about certain things and then decide to get married, they don´t have to live together to know thats the person they want to spend their life with...I guess thats just silly for people to do in your opinion.

I could buy a car without having driven it, and learn to tolerate it. But is that the ideal?

-I bought a new 2009 Lexus and never drove it before and love it. I didn´t need to drive it to know I wanted it, I knew before I went to the car lot thats what I was going to get. Thats your fault if you don´t know what you want and need to test drive it...oh but I´m sure you´ll find something wrong with that statement so I´m excited to see what you say.

The only reason this issue of marriage even exists is because of archaic values and religious dogma.

-Religious dogma, interesting if marriage didn´t exists I wonder how messed up folks would be.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 03:40 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
sex after ten years of marriage is safe and natural, whereas sex six months into a relationship is still likely to have that ´new car´ feel.

-Sex after ten years of marriage should be great, it should get better year after year but if it doesn´t that means you let it get that way.

> Sure, the ten year couple know each other better, but sometimes that leads to complacency and routine as opposed to the excitement of a new relationship.

-Again thats your job to make sure it doesn´t get routine and same ole same. If you want to get in a routine then thats on you but your right it is safer because well if she gets knocked up she doesn´t have to worry about him not calling or leaving town. He´s there for the long run.

still feel like breaking up after six months, but now they feel obligated to stay together because they are married, and no one likes to get divorced in the first year. They may ultimately learn to tolerate one another, but what kind of life is that?

-First no one who doesn´t feel like they want to be with someone long term is going to stay all the way thru til marriage. Who does that? Of course that wouldn´t work, but if they have been together for six months and have never had sex, are they not as happy as the couple who has?
My girlfriend is 24 and shes never had sex, yea she grew up with her morals and is very strong will´d and is strong in God, shes waiting til she gets married and we´ve been together going on eight in a half months now. We don´t live together, she actually lives with my sister and I´ve found that I have been actually falling in love with her. I can´t wait until we get married and start our lives together.

Only the hot ones.

-I really hope your kidding.

> See the difference is I am not mandating a behavior, I am suggesting freedom. You, and those who promote these stupid purity rings are actually doing harm, as this study shows.

-No me and these others you speak of are trying to show kids they don´t need it to be happy, they don´t need sex to be part of a choice to weather or not they love someone enough to be with them or to marry them. A promise to yourself or whoever is something bigger than just sex.

> That´s an interesting confession. But it has nothing to do with this argument. Are you really suggesting that if you had it all to do again, you wish you were a 28 year old virgin? Do you think your wife would appreciate your clumsy virginal fumblings?

-No I wish I would have waited and maybe I would´ve actually learned about love instead of just wanting sex with girl after girl and if my wife is a virgin and I´m a virgin we would both make those fumblings together but then again how would we know we´re making fumbles if neither of us ever had sex?

Pledges being 10% less likely to use protection is a big deal.

-But if their serious about their pledge then why would they need protection? They wouldn´t need that cause their serious about waiting to get married and when you married why would you need protection?

Ultimately, I think you´re being a hypocrite. You are preaching the wonder of marriage, and the great idea of being a virgin on your wedding night. Yet you chose not to do that. So given that you made the choices you did, isn´t it a case of do as I say not as I did?

-Oh your right I hope that they do do as I say and not as I did. I´m not happy with the choices I made, I wish I would´ve listened when people were trying to tell me this same stuff but I didn´t and it´s to late for me but not for some others out there. In the end it still comes down to their own choices, but you can call me a hypocrite and if who I am now and the choices I make now make me that then I have no problem with being one. I´d rather be a hypocrite who teaches kids about really finding love and waiting instead of just rushing into sex thinking thats the only way it´ll happen, you can get to know each other and fall in love without living together or sex.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 04:35 AM     
  @myth7777 1/3  
 
"You say that but what about the ones that the purity rings work on, it´s not crap to those people and those parents who don´t want to worry about their teenagers coming home with an std or expecting a child, why shouldn´t they push it on them?"

> That makes no sense. The study shows that in general, the concept doesn´t work. In fact what happens is it encourages dishonesty as opposed to open communication. You act like purity rings protect teens, when this (and many other) study clearly shows the concept to be harmful.

In fact your logic really shows the true danger of the idea of purity rings. You push this idea on your kids, which precludes them from carrying condoms or using birth control. After all, why go on the pill if you have signed an abstinence pledge?

All you´re doing is pushing normal teen behavior under the carpet, and this is an inherently bad idea. In this study 80% of teens who took the pledge later lied about it. So why push a concept that causes lying and dishonesty, and fails to achieve what it is supposed to?

"You make it seem like the government just came up with the idea when its the parents who want their kids to live a different way, than even they did."

> What caused this BS is the radical right under George Bush forcing abstinence only education on children. The policy failed, and this is one of the repercussions of this stupid concept.

"Do you have kids?"

> Please, I don´t need to have kids to understand social issues. Just like I don´t need to be raped to know it´s not something I´d enjoy.

"Cause if you do I´m sure you don´t just let your kids do whatever they want, you want your kids to live a certain way right?"

> Absolutely. I would have rules and boundaries like any responsible parent. But I would rather have open lines of communication with my kids, as opposed to selling them a crock of shit that is abstinence education.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 05:10 AM     
  @myth7777 2/3  
 
"The government is just helping parents get the point across and it doesn´t hurt when younger kids have their older siblings to look up to and see that their life is just a good without sex and in some cases better."

> I´d rather the government help out by ensuring that children all have free access to health care, not interfering with their lives and trying to impose their concept of morality. While we making a wish list, I´d also like the government to fix our pitiful education system.

"This is true and they do make up their own mind, they don´t have to wear a purity ring but if it´s going to reach a few then I say go for it."

> So if overall it causes 80% of participants to lie and 10% fewer of them to use birth control or STD protection, you still like the idea? That makes no sense.

"Are you not? I think it´s funny that you think I have a sexist tongue. When that statement doesn´t come from me it comes from women again not just women I´ve met. I´m all for women waiting til their married to have sex. Which mean men would have to keep it in their pants, but I´m I wrong do teenage girls not fall in love fast then men and based on how many girls are left with babies, broken hearts, tears etc. Thats because men play with girls emotions and once they know girls think their in love just as much as they are men take what they want and leave."

> Again, you are just making sexist generalizations. You are also advocating behavior that is contrary to what you admit you did. So how is it right for teens today to live their life one way, but when you were younger you had a different set of standards? What gives you the right to preach one thing, when it´s not how you lived your own life?

"Ok well how many men do you know that are single parents? How many men actually give a crap about the woman after sex? It´s already been proven that men think about sex more than women and that does hurt relationships. I´ve never heard men going women are dogs."

> Sounds more to me like a confession. You already told us that you had sex with a bunch of women you didn´t love. I don´t think a purity ring for you or her would have made any difference, except perhaps you´d have been 10% less likely to use protection.

"First of all that means neither one of you actually cared anyway because if you actually are in love with that person you´d fight for them no matter what. You say "getting stuck" that sounds like someone who doesn´t want committment, can´t commit or is afraid of committment ( I mean I don´t want to tell you who you are ) but that´s what it sounds like to me."

> I called it getting stuck, because if you marry a stranger, and then find out you don´t much like them, that´s a problem.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 05:11 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
Bottom line I respect your opinion but I don´t agree with it. I know you don´t agree with me and that´s fine we agree to disagree. I just wanted to give my opinion on the subject.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 05:11 AM     
  @myth7777 3/3  
 
"Are you married? Have you ever been? Have you ever been close to getting married?"

> Yes thanks. I´ve been married for 10 years this year. In the past (prior to marriage of course) I had a serious relationship for four years, but it didn´t work out.

"Marrages is a serious committment and those who are afraid of it look at it as "getting stuck". Nobody gets in a marriage and it´s easy as I´m sure you said and I agree it´s not easy so its work and work and work no one gets in a marriage and skate thru it, it´s hard work that takes committment."

> No shit. It sounds to me like you need to stop telling me how marriage is. You pretty much told us that you are a man whore who banged a bunch of women you didn´t love, and now at the age of 28 you wish you had a do over. That´s your problem, not mine. There´s no reason why we should impose purity rings on kids, because of your history.

"So why would anyone date someone for a short period of time then make that promise? My goodness do you think people just date for five months and say hea I wanna get married...thats just silly to think people do that. People can date for a few years not live together and still find out little things about each other talk about certain things and then decide to get married, they don´t have to live together to know thats the person they want to spend their life with...I guess thats just silly for people to do in your opinion."

> This is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I don´t believe that going on dates for a few years gives you a true reflection of what a person is like. Just look how many best friends from high school become dorm mates in college, and end up hating each other by the end of their freshman year. Living with a person adds a completely different dimension to a relationship, as does sexuality. I see no harm in serious committed relationships that involve cohabitation and sex, prior to marriage.

From my personal point of view, if I had married my first serious relationship, I´d be miserable (or divorced) today. We both grew apart and had different desires from life. I have no regrets about living with her and ultimately not marrying her.

"I bought a new 2009 Lexus and never drove it before and love it. I didn´t need to drive it to know I wanted it, I knew before I went to the car lot thats what I was going to get."

> Honestly, that´s flat out stupid. It makes no sense to buy a car without driving it, that´s why 99% of buyers test drive first. However, the fact that you are happy paying all that money for an expensive Toyota explains a lot about you.

I myself drive a BMW, and I KNOW it is the right car for me because I have driven just about every other car in its class, including the horrific Lexus IS250.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 05:11 AM     
  @myth7777 3/3 (extra)  
 
"Thats your fault if you don´t know what you want and need to test drive it...oh but I´m sure you´ll find something wrong with that statement so I´m excited to see what you say."

> Before I started test driving cars, I spend hours and hours, over many months researching what was available. Once I had done the research I test drove over 10 vehicles just to be sure. If you´re spending over $40K on a car, you have to be sure. And no amount of reading or looking at pictures can substitute for the actual experience behind the wheel.

The fact that you bought a Lexus without doing the proper research, pretty much tells me all I need to know about you. While you think you love that car, you have no real way of knowing if you´d have preferred something else.

But getting back on point, there is a certain value to relationships minor and serious, sexual and non-sexual. As we grow up, we experiment and we discover what we are looking for in a mate. Just like test driving cars, and knowing that you have bought the right one.

You think you love your Lexus, but your lack of proper research means that love is just an illusion.

Imagine entering a virgin marriage at the age of 28 and never knowing what might have been. And unlike a car, it´s a lot harder to trade your wife in.

"Religious dogma, interesting if marriage didn´t exists I wonder how messed up folks would be."

> Again your post seems like an admission of guilt as opposed to a reasoned argument. I can tell you right now, if there were no such thing as marriage, my life would be the same. I´d still be with my partner for going on ten years. A piece of paper that declares us married is irrelevant to our relationship.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 05:12 AM     
  @myth7777 Final one  
 
"Sex after ten years of marriage should be great, it should get better year after year but if it doesn´t that means you let it get that way."

> Who are either of us to claim how sex SHOULD be after ten years. Everyone is different.

"My girlfriend is 24 and shes never had sex, yea she grew up with her morals and is very strong will´d [sic] and is strong in God, shes waiting til she gets married and we´ve been together going on eight in a half months now. We don´t live together, she actually lives with my sister and I´ve found that I have been actually falling in love with her. I can´t wait until we get married and start our lives together."

> That´s great that you found love. Time will tell if it is real or imagined. Although let´s be real, there is nothing immoral about living with someone you love.

"´Only the hot ones.´ -I really hope your [sic] kidding."

> Of course I was.

"No me and these others you speak of are trying to show kids they don´t need it to be happy, they don´t need sex to be part of a choice to weather [sic] or not they love someone enough to be with them or to marry them. A promise to yourself or whoever is something bigger than just sex."

> How do you know? You are not married, and even if things work out with your current girlfriend, it came after several previous sexual encounters with other women. Again you are preaching what they should do, even though it´s not what you did. Don´t you see the arrogance of that position?

Has it not occurred to you that the mistakes of your past were necessary to get things right in the future?

"No I wish I would have waited and maybe I would´ve actually learned about love instead of just wanting sex with girl after girl and if my wife is a virgin and I´m a virgin we would both make those fumblings together but then again how would we know we´re making fumbles if neither of us ever had sex?"

> Yes I guess there is a certain ´magic´ to that as a concept. However, reality is very different. Losing your virginity is something you´ll always remember. To me the idea of having this important life occasion at the end of a tiring wedding day sounds horrific.

Odds are the woman will find it fairly painful and hardly the magical event they had been hoping for.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 05:47 AM     
  @myth7777 Final two  
 
"But if their [sic] serious about their pledge then why would they need protection?"

> I hate to use the expression dumbass here, but seriously? The people in this study were serious about their pledge. But when reality is studied after a few years it turned out 80% of them lied about it, and they were 10% less likely to use protection. So statistically it isn´t working. That´s not to say that it may ´work´ for some.

"Oh your [sic] right I hope that they do do as I say and not as I did. I´m not happy with the choices I made, I wish I would´ve listened when people were trying to tell me this same stuff but I didn´t and it´s to late for me but not for some others out there. In the end it still comes down to their own choices, but you can call me a hypocrite and if who I am now and the choices I make now make me that then I have no problem with being one. I´d rather be a hypocrite who teaches kids about really finding love and waiting instead of just rushing into sex thinking thats the only way it´ll happen, you can get to know each other and fall in love without living together or sex."

> Sorry, but I must again disagree. You are claiming that the decisions you made in your life were a mistake (and it sounds like you might be right), but your suggested fix is to impose some stupid ass ´morality´ on youngsters, despite all the evidence pointing to this method not working and increasing exposure to unwanted pregnancy, STDs and dishonesty.

The problem with right wing ideology is it is based on a belief that if you make certain rules you can impose morality on people. The reality though is that teens will still be teens, they just lie about their actions and do what they were going to do anyway.

The right thing to do here is to educate and keep open communication. This is not achieved by Bible thumping and purity rings.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 05:47 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
All you´re doing is pushing normal teen behavior

-That´s what we´re trying to stop is normal teen behavior because as I´m sure you know norm teen behavior have gone to an increase of teen pregnacy, and std´s but who´s to blame them when they have adults as examples and they see us going around and having sex without regard for anything else, sex without love, and random sex with any and everyone we can. That´s what we teach teens so they follow our lead and maybe we should be showing them a better lead.

BS is the radical right under George Bush forcing abstinence only education on children.

-I think its funny when people blame George Bush for any that happened the years he was in office...No I don´t like George Bush as I´m sure most black people don´t but I don´t blame him for anything that we as americans got ourselves into...Obama is full of it to but we can´t blame him for anything either the blame is on us. If it didn´t work its because we messed up not him.

> Please, I don´t need to have kids to understand social issues. Just like I don´t need to be raped to know it´s not something I´d enjoy.

-What? I´m certain since you don´t have kids you don´t know what it´s like to worry about your child parents want to know their kids aren´t just safe but also focused on actually finding love and not looking for lust, again changing that teenage norm.

as opposed to selling them a crock of shit that is abstinence education.

-It´s only a crock because you don´t agree with it, the study didn´t say all teens it doesn´t work for. Abstinece is better than rushing, it allows you to look at a situation better than just jumping in head first.

> So if overall it causes 80% of participants to lie and 10% fewer of them to use birth control or STD protection, you still like the idea? That makes no sense.

-If it get to a few teens then great, no you weren´t able to reach them all but maybe the next group will be different you don´t give up just cause the numbers are low, keep going until you reach more and then more until you don´t have to.
It sucks that day won´t ever come but doesn´t mean you give up.

So how is it right for teens today to live their life one way, but when you were younger you had a different set of standards? What gives you the right to preach one thing, when it´s not how you lived your own life?

-Again not proud of that, if I was then I wouldn´t give a crap what teens did. The standards I lived by I regret, I´m sure their are plenty of people who feel the same way which is another reason why these pledges are here.
Hopefully we can help teens not have regrets or end up with kids before their ready or an std.

> Sounds more to me like a confession. You already told us that you had sex with a bunch of women you didn´t love. I don´t think a purity ring for you or her would have made any difference, except perhaps you´d have been 10% less likely to use protection.

-Your right I had sex with a bunch of women who I didn´t give a crap about, I did use protection which is the reason I don´t have a std or kids but that doesn´t mean I was right and I still have lots of regrets.

> I called it getting stuck, because if you marry a stranger, and then find out you don´t much like them, that´s a problem.

-Who marries a stranger? How is waiting to get married to have sex and live with someone make you a stranger to that person?

> Yes thanks. I´ve been married for 10 years this year. In the past (prior to marriage of course) I had a serious relationship for four years, but it didn´t work out.

-Well first congrats on the ten years bravo! I hope she doesn´t think sex is routine, but the other relationship must not have been to serious cause your not still together, love didn´t really show up there, but now you have love correct? Real love.

That´s your problem, not mine. There´s no reason why we should impose purity rings on kids, because of your history.

-It is my problem, I didn´t say it was yours did I but why sit back and watch someone possible make the same mistake as you did?
I don´t know if you drink but if you drank and something bad happened to someone else how selfish would it be of you to just sit around and let someone else do the same thing when you could have done something to prevent it?
Don´t just sit and watch someone make the same mistake and since the numbers are increasing not only does it seem people are just sitting back watching them make mistakes people are sitting back watching them make worse mistakes and then talking about it to their friends "Oh how stupid are these kids these days." Everyone seems to be more concerned with talking about "these stupid kid" and how their having babies before their old enough to take care of themselves or how stds among them is raising. No we tell them to wait until their in love then have sex but they don´t know what love is or when their or if their in love, their going on what they think they feel.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 06:11 AM     
  Here´s a couple of points  
 
- The two of you are arguing about a news article that was posted 15 months ago.
- You´re the only two arguing
- You´re not going to convince each other about your positions
- Odds are, no one else is reading this thread

So please just stop ?.
 
  by: JeffyP   03/20/2010 06:41 AM     
  @JeffyP  
 
A couple is two Jeffy. You made four points, not a couple.

The issues raised by this article are as relevant today as they were 15 months ago.

But if no one is reading this as you assert, who cares?
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:01 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
I see no harm in serious committed relationships that involve cohabitation and sex, prior to marriage

-Your saying that and also saying that we shouldn´t try and stop the teen norm and the problem is kids aren´t looking at a functional relationship their just looking at sex sex and sex. Your living in a world that thinks kids will grow and learn from you and thats not the case, their not wanting to live together their wanting to have sex and cut ties. Look at what they have to look up to rappers, porn stars, and a whole bunch of adults who don´t care about what they teach or show kids.

I have no regrets about living with her and ultimately not marrying her.

-And her feelings about that? Just cause you don´t doesn´t mean she doesn´t have regrets and if you don´t care then..honestly did you ever really care?

> Honestly, that´s flat out stupid. It makes no sense to buy a car without driving it, that´s why 99% of buyers test drive first. However, the fact that you are happy paying all that money for an expensive Toyota explains a lot about you.

-Your assuming that I make payments,. Why? Why would you assume that I make payments? I couldn´t just go out and buy the car? I did. If you can´t afford to thats your problem, not mine. I didn´t have to test drive it cause I already knew about it, I mean I could put on the sterotype that I´m a guy so I´m suppose to know about cars but you´d say I was spitting out sterotypes right?
I didn´t just buy it cause it said Lexus I have 2000 Surburban as well that I didn´t test drive, I knew what I wanted and bought it. I know the car(s) and not just the names, who buys without knowing anything about it?

And no amount of reading or looking at pictures can substitute for the actual experience behind the wheel.

-Well if someone reads or looks at pictures to choose the car or suv they want I feel really bad for them. Maybe they should learn about whats all under the hood and how the car works, everything inside and out then choose. I already know because its one of my interests among others. So I don´t have to look at a picture or read some article that says its a good car, I already know about it.

You think you love your Lexus, but your lack of proper research means that love is just an illusion.

-Again you assume I know nothing about cars. I knew about it before I bought it so therefore I didn´t have to test drive it.
If I´d never had sex and got married years of marriage would not only help me to find out what I liked but it would´ve been that much better with that person. We have things we like and want in a relationship when it comes to sex because like it or not we compare past experences to the people we´re with at the moment. How bad is it to know that this person or that person compared you to the person before you, (weather they told you or not). I mean come on you´ve never thought your wife is better in one area where your ex wasn´t or didn´t or doesn´t do something you liked your ex doing? We all do that but two people who are virgins can´t sexually atleast because theres nothing to compare them to. They start as virgins and grow into better lovers.

I can tell you right now, if there were no such thing as marriage, my life would be the same. I´d still be with my partner for going on ten years. A piece of paper that declares us married is irrelevant to our relationship.

-If that statement is true then why are you married?
Why did you get married? If your life would´ve been the exact same way then why did you get married what was the point?
Seems to me that marriage means alot to you and your wife or else you wouldn´t be married.
Your completely positive you´d still be with the woman your with right now?

> Again your post seems like an admission of guilt

-Guilt for what, how can I have guilt for saying I wondering how messed up folks would be if there was no marriage?

> Who are either of us to claim how sex SHOULD be after ten years. Everyone is different.

-Well shouldn´t it? Why would you want sex to get worse? Do you want sex with your wife to get worse or better as the years go on?

Time will tell if it is real or imagined. Although let´s be real, there is nothing immoral about living with someone you love.

-Says you, but let´s be real. Can you sit and tell me that you could´ve lived with a girlfriend and not had sex at all? That where the immoral part comes into play not the living together. I love my siblings and my parents and ofcourse I was able to live with them but I´m not wanting sex with them either. Ofcourse theres nothing wrong with living with someone you love, it´s whats going on there thats the problem.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 07:08 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
> How do you know? You are not married, and even if things work out with your current girlfriend, it came after several previous sexual encounters with other women. Again you are preaching what they should do, even though it´s not what you did. Don´t you see the arrogance of that position?
Has it not occurred to you that the mistakes of your past were necessary to get things right in the future?

-I know that after those many sexual experences I didn´t know what love was nor was I looking for it and those that may have been I messed them up, now I´m not proud of that but you can´t deny that there are many more men, many more men who are exactly the way I use to be and don´t care about what they´ve done and want to continue to be the same way, those guys are who the young men are looking at and learning how to be men from. Can you honestly say thats a good thing?
You say that my mistake make me who I am now and who I will be basically right, but how do I know if I would´ve been a better person by now had I not made those mistakes I don´t but I know I would´ve been a better person had I listened when people tried to tell me. I wouldn´t have made those mistakes and I would´ve been a better person. Again how can I sit back and watch someone make not just the same mistakes I did but make possible make worse?

Odds are the woman will find it fairly painful and hardly the magical event they had been hoping for.

-Thats based on the person(s)

> I hate to use the expression dumbass here, but seriously? The people in this study were serious about their pledge. But when reality is studied after a few years it turned out 80% of them lied about it, and they were 10% less likely to use protection. So statistically it isn´t working. That´s not to say that it may ´work´ for some.

-Clearly the fact that you just said they lied about the pledge means they could have easily lied about being serious about it.

but your suggested fix is to impose some stupid ass ´morality´ on youngsters, despite all the evidence pointing to this method not working and increasing exposure to unwanted pregnancy, STDs and dishonesty.

-But your saying that we should just let them be how we were and forget it, why? If thats the case then again we shouldn´t warn anyone when their about to make a mistake we did. If you get scammed do you let your family members or your friends get scammed? Knowing that you could have prevented it?
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 07:29 AM     
  @myth7777 1-3  
 
> Well myth7777, this is turning into an epic discussion...

"That´s what we´re trying to stop is normal teen behavior because as I´m sure you know norm teen behavior have gone to an increase of teen pregnacy, and std´s but who´s to blame them when they have adults as examples and they see us going around and having sex without regard for anything else, sex without love, and random sex with any and everyone we can. That´s what we teach teens so they follow our lead and maybe we should be showing them a better lead."

> And what I am trying to tell you is that you cannot stop normal teen behavior with a purity ring. The way to change behavior is with education and open communication. The purity ring concept is a total bullshit method of not educating teens and trying to pretend their sexuality doesn´t exist. As this and many other studies show, it doesn´t work. You are arguing for a concept that doesn´t work.

"I think its funny when people blame George Bush for any that happened the years he was in office..."

> In this case we are talking about abstinence education which is, as a matter of fact, something that he forced upon the education system, threatening to withhold funding if his wishes were not complied with. I am not simply having a go at GWB because he was a moron, I am specifically talking about one of his many policy mistakes, and the consequences they had.

"What? I´m certain since you don´t have kids you don´t know what it´s like to worry about your child parents want to know their kids aren´t just safe but also focused on actually finding love and not looking for lust, again changing that teenage norm."

> I am completely certain that pushing abstinence education on them along with purity rings, is not going to make them any safer, or successful in love. In fact the evidence is it makes them less safe. What part of these studies don´t you understand?

"It´s only a crock because you don´t agree with it, the study didn´t say all teens it doesn´t work for."

> It´s a crock because it´s a bad idea, that has been proven not to work. What this study, along with many other similar studies show us is that in the vast majority of cases this policy fails. Furthermore it shows that there are inherent dangers too. So you are supporting a failing and dangerous policy on the basis that it might work for a small minority. How is that logical?

"Abstinece [sic] is better than rushing, it allows you to look at a situation better than just jumping in head first."

> Based on what studies and facts? This is just your opinion.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:32 AM     
  @myth7777 2-3  
 
"If it get to a few teens then great, no you weren´t able to reach them all but maybe the next group will be different you don´t give up just cause the numbers are low, keep going until you reach more and then more until you don´t have to."

> So now what you are arguing is that if a policy is shown to be harming kids, we should keep doing it on the basis that it may eventually stop harming them at some undefined point in the future? Are you even thinking about what you are saying?

"Again not proud of that, if I was then I wouldn´t give a crap what teens did. The standards I lived by I regret, I´m sure their [sic] are plenty of people who feel the same way which is another reason why these pledges are here. Hopefully we can help teens not have regrets or end up with kids before their ready or an std."

> That´s the whole point. This concept DOES NOT achieve this goal. In fact the policy has been shown to make it MORE likely that the kids will make mistakes.

"Your [sic] right I had sex with a bunch of women who I didn´t give a crap about, I did use protection which is the reason I don´t have a std or kids but that doesn´t mean I was right and I still have lots of regrets."

> I get that. But again, pushing this nonsense won´t fix anything.

"Who marries a stranger? How is waiting to get married to have sex and live with someone make you a stranger to that person?"

> If you have merely dated someone for a while, they are a stranger. You only really know someone after you have lived with them for a while. Hence the example I gave about dorm mates.

"Well first congrats on the ten years bravo!"

> Thank you.

"I hope she doesn´t think sex is routine, but the other relationship must not have been to serious cause your [sic]not still together, love didn´t really show up there, but now you have love correct? Real love."

> Our lives are what they are because of our history. Who´s to say what might have happened if I had not had the first long term relationship, or other relationships I have had (and equally her relationships). And our sex life is clearly not an appropriate topic for this forum.

It´s facile to say that my other long term relationship wasn´t serious because we are not still together. People break up all the time, whether they are married or not. That doesn´t mean that they were not serious about the relationship at one time. You are just being naïve now.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:32 AM     
  @myth7777 3-3  
 
"It is my problem, I didn´t say it was yours did I but why sit back and watch someone possible make the same mistake as you did?"

> Again you are being naïve. I am 36 years old right now. I see horrible mistakes made by various people in my life who are 10+ years younger than me. Do you think that I can simply give out advice and magically, they will suddenly benefit from my years of experience? Of course not. Human nature isn´t like that.

"No we tell them to wait until their [sic] in love then have sex but they don´t know what love is or when their [sic] or if their [sic] in love, their [sic] going on what they think they feel."

> And who are you to tell them you are right and they are wrong? It sounds to me as if you are a bit of an idiot. You have banged a bunch of women you didn´t love. You´ve not had a real serious relationship so far in 28 years. You drop $30K+ on a car without even testing it. You want to marry some virgin Bible thumper, and live happily ever after.

It doesn´t sound to me like you are in any position to be handing out advice to anyone.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:33 AM     
  @JeffP  
 
Did you want us to include you? Would that make you feel like you matter? You have no clue what he might say to me or what he has said that would make me rethink something nor do you know if he has thought about or changed his mind on something I said so how would you know if we are both going to stay with the same mind set by the end of the conversation. We didn´t say we needed help from the peanut gallery. Tell you what next time mind your manners when grown people are talking ok.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 07:35 AM     
  @myth7777 another one  
 
"And her feelings about that? Just cause you don´t doesn´t mean she doesn´t have regrets and if you don´t care then..honestly did you ever really care?"

> I didn´t live with a person for four years because I didn´t care. Ultimately, we are two very different people with very different life goals. We got together young and grew apart. It happens. Thankfully, our way of doing things saved us the social stigma, cost, and hassle of getting a divorce.

"Your [sic] assuming that I make payments,. Why? Why would you assume that I make payments? I couldn´t just go out and buy the car? I did."

> I made no such assumption. I did assume that you purchased a car with money. Whether you paid with a briefcase full of $100 bills, a check, a credit card, a lease, financing, or gold bars is irrelevant.

"If you can´t afford to thats your problem, not mine."

> Okay. Not sure what that´s about. I don´t really care how you paid for your overpriced Toyota.

"I didn´t have to test drive it cause I already knew about it, I mean I could put on the sterotype that I´m a guy so I´m suppose to know about cars but you´d say I was spitting out sterotypes right?"

> No, what I am saying is that any intelligent human of any gender takes a car they are thinking of purchasing for a spin to see if they like driving it.

"I didn´t just buy it cause it said Lexus I have 2000 Surburban as well that I didn´t test drive, I knew what I wanted and bought it. I know the car(s) and not just the names, who buys without knowing anything about it?"

> Normal people learn about things from experience. Normal people test drive cars. The fact that you are part of the maybe 1% of the population who just buys a car without actually test driving it is both irrelevant and foolish.

"Well if someone reads or looks at pictures to choose the car or suv they want I feel really bad for them. Maybe they should learn about whats all under the hood and how the car works, everything inside and out then choose. I already know because its one of my interests among others. So I don´t have to look at a picture or read some article that says its a good car, I already know about it."

> So what you are telling me now is that you have an inherent understanding of cars, without reading about them, looking at pictures of them, or driving them? Are you magic?
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 08:13 AM     
  @myth7777 another one 2  
 
"Again you assume I know nothing about cars. I knew about it before I bought it so therefore I didn´t have to test drive it."

> It´s not an assumption, it´s a fact. The Suburban (whose name you can´t even spell) is a piece of shit made by Chevy. It´s a lumbering vestige of a near bankrupt corporation, that churn out over priced, rapidly depreciating shit. I see no reason for any sane person to own one. Unless you love paying ungodly amounts for fuel, and think that reliability is overrated.

I don´t know which Lexus you own, but they are largely unimaginative and over priced Toyotas.

But regardless of the vehicle, you cannot magically know what is a good car and what is not. Normal people drive a car (with or without prior research) and then decide if they enjoyed the experience.

We are getting off topic with this discussion though. My original reason to give the example of car buying is based on the reality that the vast majority of people take a drive in a car before spending money on it. Any consumer advice publication would also conclude that this is part of normal procedure.

"If I´d never had sex and got married years of marriage would not only help me to find out what I liked but it would´ve been that much better with that person."

> Okay, so you say. You are not married and you will never know if this statement is true.

"We have things we like and want in a relationship when it comes to sex because like it or not we compare past experences [sic] to the people we´re with at the moment. How bad is it to know that this person or that person compared you to the person before you, (weather [sic] they told you or not). I mean come on you´ve never thought your wife is better in one area where your ex wasn´t or didn´t or doesn´t do something you liked your ex doing?"

> So you are now seriously peddling the ignorance is bliss argument?

"We all do that but two people who are virgins can´t sexually atleast because theres nothing to compare them to. They start as virgins and grow into better lovers."

> Again, so you say. Perhaps in a magical and ideal perfect world, this might be true. But neither you nor I live in such a world.

"If that statement is true then why are you married? Why did you get married? If your life would´ve been the exact same way then why did you get married what was the point? Seems to me that marriage means alot to you and your wife or else you wouldn´t be married. Your completely positive you´d still be with the woman your with right now?"

> Look, this isn´t a moratorium on my marriage. I´m not going to share intimate details of my life with some stranger on the Internet.

"Well shouldn´t it? Why would you want sex to get worse? Do you want sex with your wife to get worse or better as the years go on?"

> You need to think about what you are saying. Sex is inevitably going to get worse. Age is not kind to any of us. We gain weight, we get wrinkles, we get old, unhealthy and die. You are living in some fantasy world where a couple marry and build this strong robust life together with perfect, ever improving sex. Wake up and smell some reality. Have you ever fantasized about being sixty, and having sex with some sixty year old? When you´re both fat and less physically able? I didn´t think so.

In a typical marriage there are going to be years of good sex, that eventually become bad, and eventually non-existent. Think about it. There´s a reason why Playboy isn´t full of seniors.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 08:14 AM     
  @myth7777 another one 3  
 
"Says you, but let´s be real. Can you sit and tell me that you could´ve lived with a girlfriend and not had sex at all?"

> I´ve never said that. To do so would be moronic in my opinion.

"That where the immoral part comes into play not the living together."

> There is nothing immoral about two people who love each other living together and sleeping together.

"I love my siblings and my parents and ofcourse I was able to live with them but I´m not wanting sex with them either."

> Huh?

"Ofcourse theres nothing wrong with living with someone you love, it´s whats going on there thats the problem."

> Sorry, but you, and people like you are the problem. If I were single now, met the love of my life and moved in with her and had sex with her during a twenty year monogamous cohabitation, that is not immoral. Sounds to me like you´ve been drinking the Jesus juice and think that sex is only moral if some deity has sanctioned it.

You are part of the problem, and not the solution.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 08:14 AM     
  @myth777 (way past my bed time)  
 
"But your [sic] saying that we should just let them be how we were and forget it, why?"

> Not at all. You are the one with a regrettable history, not me. I´m quite happy how things turned out. You are the one hoping that your 24 year old virgin girlfriend will be that magical one who you will be married to forever. But the odds aren´t good. Over half of marriages end in divorce these days.

"If thats the case then again we shouldn´t warn anyone when their [sic] about to make a mistake we did. If you get scammed do you let your family members or your friends get scammed? Knowing that you could have prevented it?"

> The point you keep ignoring is that the alternative that you are suggesting doesn´t work. We tried the purity ring, purity pledge, abstinence only education, and it didn´t work. Studies have concluded that the reality of this social experiment is negative, as opposed to positive.

It would be nice if we had solved the issues of broken hearts, STDs, unwanted pregnancy and the magic of perfect relationships. But no such solution was ever found.

What you are arguing for is a perfect world, that didn´t exist when you were growing up and making stupid life choices. You naively think that your pearls of wisdom will magically serve as beacons of light to youngsters everywhere. That your mistakes will teach them how to live better lives.

Sorry, but if human history has proven anything, it is that teens will be teens. The best we can hope for is that we can equip them to make smart choices. Not through coercion and stupid intellectually dishonest programs such as abstinence education, but by trust, open communication and proper education.

Your way labels certain normal healthy behavior immoral. My way is about giving them the tools to make sound sensible decisions.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 08:28 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
> Well myth7777, this is turning into an epic discussion...

-I´d have to agree I´m quite enjoying if ofcourse without the help of silly people who don´t know how to make a couple points.

The way to change behavior is with education and open communication. The purity ring concept is a total bullshit method of not educating teens

-But the open communication isn´t working so then what, no one said that we just want them to wear it and thats it, ofcourse they need to know why their wearing it.

What part of these studies don´t you understand?

-Oh I understand the study but that doesn´t mean we just stop and give up. Studies say that divorce keeps going up, does that mean people should just stop getting married? The thing is tho it didn´t work on some, doesn´t mean it won´t work on none. Why can´t they have something that helps them to make sure they keep the promise to themselves or remind them of it. Yes explain why they are wearing them but at the same time continue to help them not make that mistake.
You say teens will be teens, so are we saying you can´t teach an old dog new tricks is that wear we´re going with this? Just let them be and thats it?

> So now what you are arguing is that if a policy is shown to be harming kids, we should keep doing it on the basis that it may eventually stop harming them at some undefined point in the future? Are you even thinking about what you are saying?

-Are you thinking about what your saying? Let them keep being sexually active with many partners because "its the norm" for teens? How do you know that their won´t be an increase in teens really saving themselves for marriage and a decrease in std and teen pregnacy in the next five or ten or however many years? You don´t just like I don´t but don´t we owe it to them to help as best we can. How is the best we can just to let it be?

> That´s the whole point. This concept DOES NOT achieve this goal. In fact the policy has been shown to make it MORE likely that the kids will make mistakes.

-Ofcourse but why be ok with them making that mistake? They don´t pay attetion in school and don´t want to do their work is a mistake that they still can fix, they can´t get back something they lose and they can´t give away something they gain.

> Our lives are what they are because of our history.

-So are you saying that your life would´ve been worse if you hadn´t made your mistakes?
How do you know you life wouldn´t be better than now?

That doesn´t mean that they were not serious about the relationship at one time. You are just being naïve now.

-Someone isn´t, lets be real if they were they would´ve tried hard to make something work, they wouldn´t have just quit and that be it. Again if your really serious about marriage why would you just give it up, why wouldn´t you work at it?

Do you think that I can simply give out advice and magically, they will suddenly benefit from my years of experience?

-But your experience helps someone, your experience is going to keep someone from making that mistake.
"The only thing needed for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing" Now I know thats prob a bit much for this conversation but it doesn´t make it any less true, if you just sit back and act like nothing is happening then yea it´ll not just stay the same it´ll get worse.


> And who are you to tell them you are right and they are wrong? It sounds to me as if you are a bit of an idiot. You have banged a bunch of women you didn´t love. You´ve not had a real serious relationship so far in 28 years. You drop $30K+ on a car without even testing it. You want to marry some virgin Bible thumper, and live happily ever after.

It doesn´t sound to me like you are in any position to be handing out advice to anyone.

-Again it´s not hard to not test drive something you already knew about, you already have the knowledge in your head about I know about cars cause again it one of my interest and has been for as long as I can think back so why would I need to test drive it?
By the way I paid 20, I know how to bargin it´s not hard something I´m proud I learned. Again your right I did sleep with women without feeling a thing and as I had folks trying to tell me the way I should´ve been doing things, I had examples all over making it seem like it was the best thing to do like life would be better that way, I´m trying not to be that guy that younger guys look up to and say well he slept around and didn´t have a serious relationship so thats what we want to do. I want them to see that I know I made a mistake and I´m man enough to admit it and that I´m trying to help them not make the same mistakes. Maybe your right and maybe I´m not the right person to give that advise but I´m still going to and if I don´t then I still give my support to the ones who are right to give advise but I know I still can reach someone with my experences, I have before and I´m sure I will in the future
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 09:00 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
And yes I would love to marry her why not she´s exactly what I want but didn´t know I wanted until I met her and until we began dating. I guess I could´ve been the guy that jumps into a relationship and not really have feelings for the other person even if they had them for me and then got what I wanted and left but I didn´t I just had sex and left without a relationship and unfortunately there are many guy who are like that and many who do the first example as well and they don´t care who their influencing.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 09:06 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
> I didn´t live with a person for four years because I didn´t care.

-I didn´t say did you care I said did she? You honestly can´t say what she felt compeletly cause you don´t know.

> No, what I am saying is that any intelligent human of any gender takes a car they are thinking of purchasing for a spin to see if they like driving it.

-How do you know I wouldn´t like driving it before I bought it? I knew I would and I was right, not a single regret and since you really don´t know what the percentage is of people who go and buy cars without driving them how do you know I´m not in a five percent or ten or twenty. People who collect cars buy them and even have them shipped to them before they drive them and some don´t even drive them. I´m more than positive that percentage it higher than you think.

> So what you are telling me now is that you have an inherent understanding of cars, without reading about them, looking at pictures of them, or driving them? Are you magic?

-Exactly...No ofcourse not but if I´m into that I´m going to know whats what. Most mechanics can turn on your car listen and hear the problem fix it and give your car back, I give you not all of them are that way but doesn´t mean there aren´t any. So why couldn´t I know based on years of interest in cars generally? I didn´t just go and say mystic forces help me know this car but I´m into cars hell if I was rich I´d prob be a huge collector.

The Suburban (whose name you can´t even spell)

-Really I slipped a mistaken r in there wow, but your right this is off track so I´m done with the car conversation.

You are not married and you will never know if this statement is true.

-Thats true and sad.

> Again, so you say. Perhaps in a magical and ideal perfect world, this might be true. But neither you nor I live in such a world.

-So you say that it can´t happen or won´t happen, or hasn´t happened?

We gain weight, we get wrinkles, we get old, unhealthy and die. You are living in some fantasy world where a couple marry and build this strong robust life together with perfect, ever improving sex. Wake up and smell some reality. Have you ever fantasized about being sixty, and having sex with some sixty year old? When you´re both fat and less physically able? I didn´t think so.

-So everyone on earth is going to be fat and wrinkled when we hit 60? Your not right about me hear tho I have and you bet your butt as long as I can I´m going to keep on. Theres a reason why they come out with pills and what not for older people so they can still do what they enjoy so yea as long as I can I will and I have thought about it. I have no clue what my wife will look like when shes 60 I don´t know what I´ll look like but I know that I´m not someone who likes to just sit around and not exercise and workout and I´ve seen alot of older people who are in great shape but I guess in your world we´re all going to get fat and lose interest in that aspect of marriage. I didn´t say you have a perfect sex life that´ll just get better but I do believe it´ll get better no matter how it starts, practice is going to make it alot better correct?

-Jesus juice thats funny, if your asking am I a christian then yes I am and have been since I was nine. I admit I haven´t lived that way the last 19 years but the last 4 I´ve been trying to change.

You are part of the problem, and not the solution.

-I´m a problem for wanting to help teens right, well I guess if you say it, its gotta be true. I mean your right lets just tell them f´you and figure it out yourself, if you get an std or a kid out of it oops your fault.

> Not at all. You are the one with a regrettable history, not me. I´m quite happy how things turned out. You are the one hoping that your 24 year old virgin girlfriend will be that magical one who you will be married to forever. But the odds aren´t good. Over half of marriages end in divorce these days.

-Really, you´ve never done anything that was a mistake? Your a perfect person with no regret...I guess we should all be like you huh? I can admit I have regrets and mistakes I don´t claim to be perfect in the least.
I´m not hopeing anything with her I know and I´m sure your gonna say how, but since I´m a christian you already know what I´m going to say correct?
Ofcourse you´ll say it´s a fantasy world and in the real world it doesn´t happen right?
I´ll say I´ve seen it happen and still see it happening but you´ll still say its a fantasy to think it´ll matter to me because I seen it happen to others.
I´ll say I grew up with grandparents who are still together on both my mom and dad´s side, parents who have been together since my mom was 20 and my dad was 25 and are still kicking strong, I could tell you that out of the eight uncles and aunts who are married and have been since either before I was born or since I was young only three of them aren´t married anymore. I think why didn´t I listen to the ones who are still married.
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 10:22 AM     
  @ZCT  
 
Wanna guess what they credit as the reason their still married, but thats a whole converstation that is for another night.
Lots of marriage end in divorce because no one actually cares about marriage anymore people have a quick feel, a quick bang and then they change their mind, I mean honestly can you say that the value of not just marriage but relationships have not slowly decresed over time? Divorce is going to keep going up as long as that keeps going.
I could keep going but you´ve already gone past your bedtime. I don´t want you to lose sleep.
Nice talk...
 
  by: myth7777   03/20/2010 10:37 AM     
  My girlfriend and i´s...  
 
first was each other, nothing really special except a feeling of inadequacy. On a side note me and my dog get along great!
 
  by: shiftyfarker   03/20/2010 02:05 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 1  
 
"But the open communication isn´t working so then what, no one said that we just want them to wear it and thats it, ofcourse they need to know why their wearing it."

> If you look at countries that practice open communication, and proper sex ed, their teen pregnancy rate is far lower than ours, along with their STD rate. So please don´t tell me that open communication doesn´t work, and that we instead need to substitute a ring and a promise to God for real education. That was the experiment George Bush tried, and it didn´t work. We don´t need to try a failing policy harder, we need to push reality.

"Oh I understand the study but that doesn´t mean we just stop and give up."

> Why? The policy is stupid and has been proven not to work time after time. There is no substitute for teaching FACTS.

"Studies say that divorce keeps going up, does that mean people should just stop getting married?"

> There´s a reason divorce rates keep going up, and that reason is a good one. A few decades ago, perhaps just ten or twenty years before you and I were born, women had far fewer rights. Their place in society was largely related to their husband. If a woman were being abused by their husband, they would have a hard time leaving the relationship because life as a divorced woman would be pretty horrific.

Let me give you an example. About forty years ago, my parents lived in London. My mother was a professional nurse, and for a couple of years actually earned more than my father. She once went to a rental store to rent a TV. They told her to come back with her husband so he could sign the rental agreement.

This wasn´t 1920, this wasn´t some backwater hick town. This was London, in the early 70s.

This is how women were treated back then. They were not allowed to drink in bars by themselves. They were denied proper education to quite a large extent.

So for a typical woman, life without a husband, having a failed marriage behind them was in some regards worse than being in a loveless abusive marriage.

So women were trapped. And many of them stayed in horrific doomed relationships until one of them died, because of the social stigma and lack of gender rights.

Thankfully we live today in a far more enlightened society. Sexism is still rampant, and women still earn less than men. But they are far freer. They can choose to walk out on a horrible relationship and not be stigmatized. This is a good thing.

So when people whine about the divorce rate going up, I am pleased that people who are in a failed relationship, move on with a chance to find happiness.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:24 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 2  
 
"The thing is tho it didn´t work on some, doesn´t mean it won´t work on none."

> I think you´re missing the point about statistics. If they invent a vaccine that cures cancer, but it kills 90% of people who take it, do you think the FDA would approve it? The argument that it might help some people is hardly going to hold water here.

"Why can´t they have something that helps them to make sure they keep the promise to themselves or remind them of it."

> Such a device doesn´t work, as we´ve discussed before. It also isn´t something that should be promoted in lieu of actual education, as it has been in some areas.

"You say teens will be teens, so are we saying you can´t teach an old dog new tricks is that wear we´re going with this? Just let them be and thats it?"

> I´m saying that teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. Not educating them about sex, STDs, pregnancy, and protection and instead giving them a ring and telling them to wait is a stupid fantasy answer that will be ignored by teens, as this and many other studies have shown.

I´m saying precisely the opposite of let them be, I am saying educate them, and encourage them to make responsible choices based on knowledge, not withholding information and telling them to do as you tell them to.

Parents who encourage abstinence education are also encouraging teens not to be open with them, which puts said teens at greater risk.

"Are you thinking about what your saying?... How is the best we can just to let it be?"

> I have never said let it be. Quite the opposite. I am advocating proper education so that teens can make informed decisions in life.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:24 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 3  
 
"Ofcourse but why be ok with them making that mistake?"

> I don´t view teen sex as a mistake as you do. I view it as a natural part of becoming an adult. Given that we KNOW they are going to do it, no matter what we preach at them, let´s just make sure they have the knowledge to use protection. Keep in mind that the United States is number one in the world for teen pregnancy rates. When you compare to more open liberal countries that actually teach real sex education, they are kicking our butt. But you want to continue to pursue a failed policy of telling kids to wait?

"So are you saying that your life would´ve been worse if you hadn´t made your mistakes?
How do you know you life wouldn´t be better than now?"

> It doesn´t really matter what I think, I don´t have a time machine. But of the two of us, it is you who keeps wringing his hands and talking about all the sinful bad things from his past. I´m quite happy with how things turned out, and I would not wish to remove my early sexual relationships.

I can also tell you that I have never believed in the wait until marriage argument. To me marriage is a massive commitment, and I am not going to enter that with a person I´ve never lived with or slept with.

I prefer women who know who they are as people and in the bedroom. Not some naive little virgin who waited because they think a magic invisible man is watching their every move and judging them.

"Again if your really serious about marriage why would you just give it up, why wouldn´t you work at it?"

> I can´t really keep explaining this to you. You seem to be trying to explain marriage to me, yet you are not married.

Of course you work at a marriage, but only to a certain limit. And this has nothing to do with finding the right one in the first place.

"But your experience helps someone, your experience is going to keep someone from making that mistake."

> Right now I am older than you, I have two serious relationships under my belt. And I am currently in a successful ten year marriage. I am advising you to live with your partner and sleep with them for at least a year prior to marriage. Despite my superior age and experience you have spent thousands of words arguing with me and telling me how marriage should be.

You´re a decade older than the teens we are talking about, yet you still won´t listen and benefit from my experience.

So what on earth makes you think some teen is going to think when you tell them that sex is bad and wrong, and that they should wait? Especially when they see the hypocrisy of you preaching something that you yourself ignored.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:25 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 4  
 
"The only thing needed for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

> This is one of the many areas that you and I differ. I don´t see anything evil or wrong with a loving couple moving in together and having sex. Honestly, I don´t even see anything wrong with casual teen sex. As long as it´s safe, and they know what they are doing. It´s infinitely better than passing out purity rings in school and telling kids to wait. Now that is both evil and dangerous in my opinion. Especially with our shocking teen pregnancy rate.

"Again it´s not hard to not test drive something you already knew about, you already have the knowledge in your head about I know about cars cause again it one of my interest and has been for as long as I can think back so why would I need to test drive it?"

> I can´t really explain this to you. Just accept that the vast majority of people go to the dealership, drive the car they are interested in and see if it works for them. That is the only way to know if you are going to like the car. I feel like I am explaining kissing to an autistic person. But if you really don´t believe me, ask your friends and relatives how many of them bought a car, never having driven it.

"By the way I paid 20, I know how to bargin it´s not hard something I´m proud I learned."

> I don´t know all the details, but I do find that hard to believe. The invoice price on the cheapest Lexus is $28K right now. Why would they sell you a brand new car for $8K under invoice? I don´t care how good at negotiating you are. But I´m sure there´s something you´ve not yet told me on this, and since it´s irrelevant, I´ll move on.

"Again your right I did sleep with women without feeling..."

> Here´s the deal, this issue isn´t about you and it isn´t about me. The life choices we made took us to the places we are today. My issue here is that you are looking to IMPOSE your ´wisdom´ on others. You are trying to tell me that you want to tell teens how marriage and love is, yet you´ve not been married, and you didn´t wait. So why the hell should they listen to you. It would be like me going to an inner city school and telling a bunch of African American kids what it´s like to grow up as a young black person in the US (I´m white BTW). Clearly there would be a credibility gap.

"How do you know I wouldn´t like driving it before I bought it..."

> I´m done with this thread. It´s irrelevant. The bottom line here is that you don´t know if you might have preferred say a BMW, because you didn´t test drive all the cars in that class and then pick the one that was best for you. No human has the intrinsic ability to know what car will suit them.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:25 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 5  
 
"So everyone on earth is going to be fat and wrinkled when we hit 60? Your not right about me hear tho I have and you bet your butt as long as I can I´m going to keep on. Theres a reason why they come out with pills and what not for older people so they can still do what they enjoy so yea as long as I can I will and I have thought about it. I have no clue what my wife will look like when shes 60 I don´t know what I´ll look like but I know that I´m not someone who likes to just sit around and not exercise and workout and I´ve seen alot of older people who are in great shape but I guess in your world we´re all going to get fat and lose interest in that aspect of marriage. I didn´t say you have a perfect sex life that´ll just get better but I do believe it´ll get better no matter how it starts, practice is going to make it alot better correct?"

> I can´t really answer that question, other than to tell you that you have a lot of growing up to do. Get back to me when you are ten years into a marriage and then maybe you´ll understand. I can´t really explain experience to you.

My point is simply that your prime sex years are from your teens to your thirties. The more of that time you waste abstaining, the less life time you have left to enjoy the sex. Very few people get to their death bed and say, "Wow, I´m sure glad I didn´t have lots of sex when I was young and healthy."

"Jesus juice thats funny, if your asking am I a christian then yes I am and have been since I was nine. I admit I haven´t lived that way the last 19 years but the last 4 I´ve been trying to change."

> Well then you´ve not been a Christian at all. You became one at the age of nine, ignored God´s instructions for 19 years, and have tried to change in the past four. By that math the best you´ve been able to do is 28 years is ´try´ for the past four? According to that you´ve never actually practiced as a Christian.

"I´m a problem for wanting to help teens right, well I guess if you say it, its gotta be true. I mean your right lets just tell them f´you and figure it out yourself, if you get an std or a kid out of it oops your fault."

> Do you understand what abstinence education is? It´s when educators withhold vital information about sex, protection, pregnancy, and STDs, and tell kids to just wait. When the teens go out and do what teens do, they don´t have the knowledge to protect themselves. If you search the archives of ShortNews, I believe I once wrote a story about a study that found that an astonishingly high percentage of teens in America thought that you could not get pregnant the first time you have sex. Or that drinking bleach was a form of birth control. Look it up. That kind of dangerous misinformation is what happens when you fail to educate teens. I am for giving them knowledge, not telling them to go off and randomly have sex.

The problem with people like you is that you think you can change human nature with stupid ideas such as purity rings and abstinence education. All the evidence shows that this doesn´t work, and does more harm than good.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:26 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 6  
 
"Really, you´ve never done anything that was a mistake? Your a perfect person with no regret...I guess we should all be like you huh? I can admit I have regrets and mistakes I don´t claim to be perfect in the least."

> I don´t believe I ever claimed to be perfect. But I am not going to go through life wondering about what could have been. I´ve had a nice life. I have a great wife. We´re happy. Sure, I´d have liked to have won the lottery along the way. Perhaps banging a few supermodels in college would have been nice too. But seriously, I´m happy. You´re the one that doesn´t sound happy, and you think if you could only convince teens to live a different life than you, then they would be happy. Like I said, good luck with that.

"Wanna guess what they credit as the reason their still married, but thats a whole converstation that is for another night."

> I saw some old lady on TV the other day. She was 110 or something like that. As usual the reporter asked her what the secret of a long life is. She replied that her mother had always told her to chew her food thoroughly. I saw another old woman on TV, and she said her secret to a long life was a sip of brandy every night.

Do you really think that either of these habits will make you live to 110?

Just because you´ve met some family members with an old fashioned view of marriage, and they credit that to the success of their marriage does not make it generally true for the entire population.

My grandparent in laws had nine children. Being Catholic they were all encouraged to marry before sex or cohabitation. Out of the nine of them, eight have been divorced. Three of them were in abusive relationships (as the victim; and waited far too long to kick out the abuser). Several of them have had more than one failed marriage.

It´s just anecdotal of course, just like your experience. My parents lived together first, and had had previous partners. They´ve been married close to 40 years.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:26 PM     
  @myth7777 Epic Post 7  
 
"Lots of marriage end in divorce because no one actually cares about marriage anymore people have a quick feel, a quick bang and then they change their mind, I mean honestly can you say that the value of not just marriage but relationships have not slowly decresed over time?"
> I think this is probably the right wing Christian people you´ve been listening to. There was never a magic era of perfect relationships. Back in the 50s, women were too scared to leave.

Thankfully we live in a more enlightened era where people don´t stay together in horrible relationships as often as they used to. I see that as a good thing.

Life is too short to squander in a horrible relationship.

"Divorce is going to keep going up as long as that keeps going."

> That´s great. I don´t care if divorce reaches 90% as long as people are free to live with who they love. If the love ends, then move on. Just worry about yourself and loved ones, and not about imposing your values on others.

"I could keep going but you´ve already gone past your bedtime. I don´t want you to lose sleep.
Nice talk..."

> Good talking to you too. I hope I´ve helped you in some way. Good luck with your girlfriend, and marriage. And next time you trade that Lexus, take a BMW for a spin. You´ll then understand what you´ve been missing in that nasty Lexus ;) Trust me, I´ve driven both.
 
  by: ZCT     03/20/2010 07:27 PM     
 
 
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