Marwa Sherbini, a 31-year-old Egyptian medical student living in Germany, was stabbed 18 times by Axel W, 28, a German citizen, in a courtroom in the town of Dresden.
Medics were unable to save the three-month pregnant woman. Her first 3-year-old son was present in the courtroom at the time of her murder. Her husband, Elwi Okaz, is in critical condition in hospital after being stabbed while trying to save his wife.
It all started when Marwa sued Axel for repeatedly calling her a "terrorist". He didn't like his 750-euro fine, so he applied for an appeal, in which he brought out a knife and murdered Marwa while she was giving her testimony in front of the judge.
What this CNN coverage fail to mention is that the woman was stabbed 18 times in the duration of 8 times. thats 8 minutes of no one in the court room doing anything about it. since there was no security in the room they have called a police officer from a neighboring room which rushed in and fired at the husband when he saw him battling with the murdering, thinking that the brown person was likely to be the trouble maker
The hijab has grown into a political symbol of fundamentalist Muslims all around the world and denotes the rejection of European culture, civil liberties and values.
This man was clearly a homicidal nutcase and would have lashed out at other people regardless of the circumstances.
The hijab has become one of the symbols that those who reject muslim ways can rally around as an example of why they hate the way of life of those muslims that follow the practice.
Don't get me wrong, I think that so many of the ways and rules of organised religions are completely wrong that I reject them all utterly, but I won't place blame on the wrong people.
The implication that everyone sat there and let it happen because she was a muslim is quite clear, when it was actually most likely because the guy had a knife and was proven willing to use it.
Where was the security in the courtroom in the first place? How did he even reach the woman? THAT is what should be questioned here - not who wore what.
I think that the suing over being called a terrorist was pretty pathetic as well. He could have been arrested for harrassment, but not sued for money for making his opinion and distaste for someone known. HOWEVER, before I get jumped on - I must state that I also believe that he should have been arrested for harrassment and a restraining order placed upon him in the first place, with a minimum 4 year's hard labour for intentionally breaking the order.
Also, did the officer fire at the husband, or did he just badly shoot wildly towards the two combatants?
Egyptian women didn't wear the hijab thirty to forty years ago, but the practice has since made a comeback, largely thanks to Islamic fundamentalism.
The hijab is a world-wide political symbol of Islamic fundamentalism. Calling the practice into question isn't strictly a cause for Europeans that are critical of Islamic traditions. There are enough Egyptian women that refuse to wear the hijab -- these women are typically of the generation that experienced life without the hijab.
"This man was clearly a homicidal nutcase and would have lashed out at other people regardless of the circumstances"
Condoning such actions with a justification makes you no different. A callous Bastard with hate filled to the brim against people who are different than you.
Egyptians Didnt wear hijjab 40 years ago!!? Which Egyptians are you talking about?
2.) "HUTCHEON: Egypt experienced its own women’s liberation movement early last century when the nation struggled to throw off Britain Colonial rule. Part of that independence movement was about throwing off the veil so that by the sixties and seventies, a veiled woman was virtually a thing of the past.
Even by the fifties, it was hard to find a veiled middle-class woman and despite being an Islamic nation, in 1954 it was liberal enough that an Egyptian beauty took out the Miss World title."
http://www.abc.net.au/ 3.) Hatred would be the defining characteristic of most Islamic movements.
Sorry but i have to disagree with you with all what you are saying
first of all dont blame this on him being a nutcase. Are u telling me he would stab a nun if she wouldnt remove her uniform? or a sekh indian for not removing that knot they put on their head (dont know its name),.....
it is obvious because she was a "muslim", just admit that it was a hate crime and stop making execuses.
if it was the otherway around and the egyptain killed the german in egypt, the egyptain will be considered a terrorist, not a "nutcase"
now to the other point on women not wearing Hijabs in the past 40-50 years
execuse but what the hell are u talking about? Hijab has been there since the old times. Not because they have a miss world, or movie stars with no Hijabs then all dont wear it.
i dont care whatever reason you come up with or execuse, it is and will always be a hate crime. PERIOD.
"Also, did the officer fire at the husband, or did he just badly shoot wildly towards the two combatants?"
i wont try and blindly put the blame on the officer
but if you look at it, German police are well trained and good at their job, i hear..
I think he ran in, saw 2 men fighting. one of them was white and had european looks, and the other was brown and clearly looked arab. Without trying to grasp the situation, he instantly fired at the brown guy because he looked arab. He was shot in the leg which weakened him and gave the murderer an easy opportunity to stab him 6 times.
Now the question is why didnt the officer shoot the murderer while he was stabbing the man 6 times? he could of prevented serious damage to the man, 5 would of been easier, or 4, 3, 2... but no after he finished stabbing he was arrested.
I have pictures from 20yrs ago (not 40) with Egyptian beaches with egyptian women wearing bikinis on them.
In the movies from the 50's, the only women wearing veils, were actresses playing the role of a prisoner. As the veil at the time, was forced on female prisoners as a form of humiliation.
Many egyptian women wore cultural cloak-like garbs referred to as 'tarha', specially embodied in the actress 'zinat sidki'. The cloak was often decorated and covered in glitters and by no means was it meant to turn women into a piece of furniture like the present day hijab does.
Hijab is a new phenomenon in Egypt, thanx to the Iranian islamic revolution that pushed this crap on the muslim world and the god(allah)damn saudis who decided to compete against the iranian influence by going to their own extreme.
One of the funnier pictures I have seen, were the pictures of the mufti of saudi from the 50's posing with his family with his wife in a european spaghetti strap dress.
As to this incident, a 3-month pregnant women, gets stabbed by a hate-monger, for 8 minutes. And then an idiot with a gun finally walks in to finish off her husband.
I probably look like her husband too. Now I feel very safe visiting Germany.
And Bastrel, I understand that for some strange reason, a muslim is much more precious to you than a kaffir, but a hate monger will attack a sikh, a hindu, a jew (this is dresden, remember?), a pole (again Dresden), a homosexual (Dresden: ArseFickers), etc.
I don't think malefice was saying if this was or wasn't a hate crime. Merely, that the guy was an asshole who is dangerous to everyone. Not just muslims.
If its in you to kill any person; gay, different ethnicity, different religion, whatever - you can call it a hate crime if it makes you feel better, but you're a danger to society in whole, not just to gays or whatever the target of your hate is. A person is a person is a person.
These people that you are talking about who are danger to the society they murder random people, steal, become serial killers....etc
They dont go after a woman who is playing with her son in the park and call her a "terrorist" on a regular basis, it wasnt only one day, becaue this man lives near them. When you call someone a "terrorist", "you dont belong here", "leave this country you are a danger to us", even trying to physically remove her Hijab, this is not some random nutcase, it is based on hate.
Im not saying all westerners have hate towards Muslims, just a minority of them, dont tell me that only nutcases are the ones who hate all Muslims, even sane ones hate Muslim.
Im not saying that this is a totally sane educated man, he is f**ked up in the head for doing this, but also dont try and say that there is no Hate envolved because she is a Muslim, there is clearly hate there.
"now to the other point on women not wearing Hijabs in the past 40-50 years
execuse but what the hell are u talking about? Hijab has been there since the old times. Not because they have a miss world, or movie stars with no Hijabs then all dont wear it."
Due to your failure to provide any reasons or envidence with your attempt to refute the claim that wearing a Hijab in Egypt in the mid 20th century was not common by women and your poor grammar, I think that argument went waaaaaaaaaaay over your head.
No one said the Hijab has only been around for the past 20 or so years. What they are saying is that some of the muslim world started to become a progressive society around the 50's. From which now they have reverted back to their old ways mainly due to Saudi Arabia and Iran (as kmazzawi mentioned).
Egyptians majority are Muslims, for them to wear the Hijjab is mandatory according to their religion, which they (Muslims) is mandatory for modesty.
101 try it with the other lumpen who is contending "I have pictures from 20yrs ago (not 40) with Egyptian beaches with egyptian women wearing bikinis on them." Albeit Christians or non orthodox Muslims... Or to capitalize on this statement... SO freaking what if Egyptian women want to wear bikinis??
Does it mean this woman deserves to die because some NUT thinks like the likes of You two!!! Grow up and dont condone hate.
This man was constantly hassling her for what religion or beliefs she held. This was a hate crime brought on from the fear the man had of terrorists. His actions were not because of the money, I would bet in is mind he thought he had gotten rid of yet another terrorist.
The one thing I do not understand is why was there no security in the court house? Is this common practice in Germany?
They are calling her the hijab martyr in Egypt now according to the BBC.
My grammer has nothing to do with this discussion, english is my second language. i still say Hijab and Muslims were there even hundreds of years ago in Egypt. i lived in egypt for a long time and i have family there. even in a million years neither u nor kmaz will know Egypt more than i do. what pictures does he have? not all Muslims choose to wear Hijab what will he do? show me some google pictures of egyptains not wearing Hijab? so what? that doesnt mean that the majority on the street doesnt. the number of women wearing Hijabs now is even less than before
It depends on the type of court and the severity of the crime. Yes, it is common practice in these cases. There will be of course security in the murder trial that will follow now. This was only over a few insults, who could now that this guy was such a psycho. If he did not kill the woman right there, who could prevent him from doing it later on the street? both parties usually enter and leave the building trough the same door. The court is not to blame here.
Oh I wasn't trying to blame the court, I was just wondering why there is no security in the court rooms. Most of the court rooms here have a bailiff standing or sometimes sitting near the judge.
And I do agree that he would killed her no matter where he found the opportunity. He called her a terroist yet he is the one who terrorized her and her little boy that saw it happen. What a sick, cowardly man.
Hysterical Muslims - No Capacity For Self-Reflecti
The selective outrage of Muslims is well-known within Europe. (Purposely blow up a mosque of a rival sect, causing dozens of deaths - if you're a Muslim, it's alright. Blow up a mosque, by accident during wartime - if you're a kafir. Racism! Persecution! Crusades! Blah blah.) Spare us the hysterics. No one in this thread has tried to justify the brutal murder of this woman. When someone assaults another person in a court of law and repeatedly stabs this person eighteen times or more -- it's pretty obvious that this individual is a complete and utter nutjob. If this individual for example was caught up in a dispute with his neighbors he would have lashed out violently, seizing upon whatever characteristic was available to express his rage. Could have been spectacles, long-hair, choice of music, whatever.
Of course it could very well have been that he fostered extremist anti-Islamic beliefs. At least he didn't plot out the mass-murder of hundreds, eh? As would be customary when Islamic extremists express their anti-Western hatred.
please dont go to the topic of exterimists because you yourself have the same. We are not proud of our extremists, but on the other hand you are proud of your army and government.
Extremists kill innocent people and we consider them murderers, your government and army kill even more innocents and they are called heroes who are fighting "A War Against Terrorism" duh!!!...
Going back to the main point, im not saying anyone here is trying to justify this murder, but some people here are claiming its just a random murder with a totally random victim.
Everyone knows that its a hate crime, but some just dont want to admit it.
The guy is an obvious right-wing fundamentalist. Whether it's gays, mexicans, gypsies, middle-easterner, africans - in fact anyone who's not a GOP WASP.
The fact that the middle-east is in the news probably gave him a quick target. Pretty much how Malefice thinks.
That's probably Malefice's defence for this case -
Deflect the 'anti-muslim' aspect of the case by suggesting he would attack anyone. .... but fail to mention those others would also qualify for hate crimes too.
Unfortunately we've all seen what happens when Muslim fundamentalists use their contacts in the Muslim world to stir up controversy in an effort to influence public opinion. (e.g. Danish Cartoons)
Islamic organizations have tried repeatedly to use Islamophobia as a pretext to further fundamentalist Islamic causes within Europe, such as the introduction of Sharia courts, increased state funding for mosques, etc.
This incident, while deeply unfortunate, is no different. The tragedy that befell this woman will be shamelessly used by Muslim fundamentalists to spread their virulent ideology.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ Note how he fails to mention how the rising tide of antisemitism in Europe can be largely attributed to Muslim immigrants.
Also note how he fails to mention the spread of fundamentalist Islam amongst European Muslims.
He gives it a single mention:
"Muslim leaders must continue to emphasize the guiding principles of their faith - justice, tolerance, charity, compassion and equality - and speak out against honor killings, which are not uncommon among their communities in Europe."
As if he can somehow counterbalance his ludicrously skewed piece with a single mention of one of the more trivial problems attributable to Islam.
The way i see it, the only thing bad about this whole situation is Once again the ***BLOODY MUSLIMS***, this is the same shit we hear every day all over the world. But if we say anything untoward them, their culture or their way of doing things, We are immediately branded and attacked as the agressors or we are the ones who have done something wrong against Islam, though we may not have done anything at all, WHEN WILL THE DUMB SUCKASSES IN OUR GOVERNMENTS LEARN THAT MULTI CULTURALISM DONT WORK. "FULL STOP"...and for all the sympathists out there, im glad the bad muslims that claim that they are peaceful god fearing men and women Blow themselves and lots of innocent people up, and now the do-gooders in the USA, Britain, Europe and Middle eastern countries will slowly but surely learn. "WE WILL NOT PUT UP WITH THEM HERE". Their intention and ambition in life is to cheat,Threaten Harass and Kill what they call infadels and as many peaceful human beings as they possibly can and make the earth pure in their gods eyes, and they have every nation on earth believing that they are not bad people or terrorists, just poor refugees: WAKE UP EVERYBODY, thats how they infiltrate, are you all a pack of dummies' god help us and no not their god
Perhaps we should stick Rangi & skcusswentrohs in the same closet and take bets.
Bastrel: Hijab is not mandatory on egyptians. Wiping adulterers in public (as per koran) is not mandatory on egyptians. Stoning people (as per hadith) is not mandatory on egyptians. Chopping the fingers and the necks of certain kuffar (as per koran) is not mandatory on egyptians. Refusing any non-muslim leader (as per koran) is not mandatory. Breaking ties with all non-muslim friends (as per koran) is not mandatory on egyptians.
Just because something is in a koran or a talmud, it does not make it mandatory on anyone. for couple centuries, Egyptians had chosen not to turn their women into pieces of furniture. You would walk in Egyptian streets, and find even the poor women walking with their arms bare possibly holding stuff above their head. In the last 20yrs however, hijab made a strong headway in the muslim world.
My guess is the hijab will fade away soon. It does not fit the egyptian lifestyle. Egypt is too friggin hot. As for colder countries, the women wearing the veils are suffering rickets from lack of sun exposure and their kids are being born with f#@$cked up bones.
The hijab was a stupid invention by men (with penises) and it is a matter of time before women wisen up. Like they always do and the veil will disappear for few more decades/centuries.
This happened in Germany, by a German who simply hated a person from what and how they appeared. Kills them and some a$$holes are condoning these actions as justified. Their argument? She should not have won Hijjab in Germany, because it is oppressive.
I was in Sicily few months ago, I thought I was in the midst of Muslims, only to find out, they are Catholics, only cover their heads (Women) for modesty...
Who condoned any of this? I only skimmed through some of the later stuff but all I've read are people arguing about what the motivations of this crime were. Hate, craziness, etc.
I still think that if you're some average whitey joe, and you HATE HATE HATE muslims enough to kill one, its in you to kill your white neighbor too if he pisses you off. Hatred isn't about race or differences. Hatred is internal, caused by anger and ignorance and insecurity. ANYONE pisses you off enough and you kill them out of HATE. Why can't a straight, white guy killing another straight white guy be called a hate crime? Did the murderer not HATE the guy he killed. I doubt the other guy died because the dude LOVED him.
If a guy bangs your wife and you kill him, if you kill anyone out of revenge its because you HATE that person, hence the vengence. Why is something like that instead of refferred to as a crime of passion or whatever? Maybe this is kind of off topic, but its what I never understood about the term "hate crime." Sure, this is a hate crime. Aside from lame-o stalkery "love crimes" every murder ever commited was.
There was no security in the room. personally i have no idea why, but the officer they called was in the next room.
But whats more confusing to me is that for 8 minutes not even a single guy in the room tried to do anything about it. they all just stayed still and watched.
Not all killings are hate crimes, some killings are random, and some killings are hate crimes due do that guy doing something to hurt you whatever it was...
But a female taking her 3 year old son to play in the park, what harm did she cause him? What has she ever done to be called a "terrorist"? and stabbed 18 times infront of her son? Why would her cloth matter to him?
Dont change the subject by provoking other matters that im not in the mood to discuss with someone like you because you will choose not to understand...
As i said before Hijab has always been there and is still there and will always be there.
The Islamist agenda has already been exposed; historical facts, additional context, etc. has been provided, what remains is the stereotypical concession of a foul-tempered opponent. "Yer a racist!"
From one of your previous posts,"Of course it could very well have been that he fostered extremist anti-Islamic beliefs. At least he didn't plot out the mass-murder of hundreds, eh?"
I think it was pretty damn obvious that he fostered extreme hatred and anti-Islamist beliefs with the harrasment leading up to the attack which killed her and her unborn baby. This wasn't some guy that walked by her one day and said something rude he constantly harrased her about her choice of headgear and her religion.
And the second sentance about he didn't plan out mass murders etc etc is just more of the type of propaganda that we hear so it will make it ok to hate one religious group or one "type" of person. She wasn't the damn boogeyman plotting to bomb anyone, she was a mother trying to go to school to actually help people by becoming a Dr and simply raise her family. What bigotry.
"As i said before Hijab has always been there and is still there and will always be there."
No on disagreed that hijab was always there and is still here. Just like stoning was always there and is still here. And so is female genital mutilation as well as beheading apostates.
The only issue which you have not addressed, is that most of these things are not 'always active'. They come and go. Like fashion. And 20yrs ago, hijab was not in fashion in Egypt. It was not active. Today it is. Female Genital Mutilation however, had been in Egypt for millenias and still going super-strong.
I will have to agree with bastrel. Not all murders can be attributed to hate.
A mugger kills his victim who did not handover a wallet.
A husband kills his wife because he does not want to pay obligations.
A financial adviser kills a customer to he can keep some wealth to himself.
Bunch of guys starting a fight over a girl or a beer.
A jilted lover killing his wife and a boyfriend, and then driving away in a White SUV.
You can always assume there was some major hate being exchanged during the fight, or as gun triggers were being pulled. But the cause of the murders was not hate.
The murder of this woman was caused by hate. The murderer hated islam as well as muslims. It was not enough for this guy to criticize and attack the ideology. He had to carry the hate and the attack on other humans as well. It did not matter who or what her name was.
