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09/11/2009 07:47 AM ID: 80643 Permalink   

ACORN Reps Wanted to Help Set up Prostitution Ring


Two woman at the Baltimore, Maryland branch of the liberal group ACORN have been videotaped by two undercover conservatives giving advice on how to set up a prostitution scheme involving underage girls.

One worker tells the undercover agent to call herself a "performing artist" on tax forms. The ACORN tax expert also told the woman to stop referring to it as prostitution. Another woman said: "You want to keep them clean ... make sure they go to school."

The National ACORN office has said, "The portrayal is false and defamatory and an attempt at 'gotcha journalism.' This film crew tried to pull this sham at other offices and failed." It is yet to be discovered if Baltimore officials are investigating.

    WebReporter: willyshawker Show Calling Card      
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
its such a corrupt organazation. This is 15 min away from my home here is the local article

Acorns best is they have tried this before. Well guess what it finally worked, Trying to spin it for good well it isnt working your people were wrong if not they wouldnt have gotten fired.
  by: willyshawker     09/11/2009 07:54 AM     
I don't really care for ACORN so please don't try to peg with the liberal tag for my reply.

I have several issues with this happening, the more I have read about it today the more I am suspicious over the tape. A few of the questions I have are:
#1 Why is the tape edited and blacked out at all? If they wanted to bust this group they should show everything so there is no doubt.
#2 Undercover agent? They are not agents and they are not called that anywhere in the article that I see, very far fetched with that one.
#3 Why are these two cancelling interviews and not returning calls? After all it was their goal to expose one of the branches and after many times of failing they got one. Maybe Levensen was correct on this one and neither Giles or O'Keefe were willing to answer why they are attempting to do this in the first place.
#4 How long have these ACORN workers been working there and did anyone really check out their references. I mean wouldn't be the greatest thing to have 2 plants in there and then expose the 'real deal' to whomever really gives a shit?

I am also so sick of people using the word grassroots when describing their campaigns or companies anymore, especially if they are a large group like ACORN with 400,000 members and 1,200 locations or ANY Republican or Democrat using it in their campaigning because they aren't grassroots when they are playing with war chests. The word is overused and every politician that is using it only wants people to think that they really care. It is just like that damn hand with the thumb sticking out a tad that everyone uses during speeches or addresses like last night.

I don't know about most of you, but I do not find the idea of children being in prostitutes funny at all, I don't give a damn if it was for 'undercover work' or not. If those two women did all they are accused of and a clean unedited copy of the tape with no blackouts is actually available then I think the women and the undercovers should be charged. O'Keefe and Giles were not working for the police or FBI so they should be just as guilty of any laws that were broken.
  by: TaraB     09/11/2009 08:19 AM     
  Something's missing...  
...just how does this relate to the ACORN organization again? One may as well say that those guys who run drug operations out of fast food drive-thrus betray corruption in Burger King.
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/11/2009 10:47 AM     
it relates because it was a branch of Acorn that this happened at. Employeed Acorn officials took part in it
  by: willyshawker     09/11/2009 10:57 AM     
  media as usual  
It's pretty simple. A crime has been commited by someone. It's up to the FBI to decide who. I have my own suspicions (30 story's after 12 hours doesn't bode well for the "home team" Let's spend as much effort on this issue (which not only involves national security, but goes to the core of the constitution) as the media did with the Michael Jackson issue. (hour for hour...the media is about 600 stories behind at this point)
  by: jeal10   09/11/2009 10:58 AM     
  A doctor I knew  
Was a pothead. The medical system in the U.S. is screwed up.

Conclusion: The medical system in the U.S. is screwed up because it's operated by and founded by potheads and could therefore be repaired with the elimination or deportation of anyone who's ever smoked pot.
  by: VermiciousG     09/11/2009 02:36 PM     
Yes, and? You tried to link this to ACORN being a "corrupt organization," but all this really shows is that if you hit enough locations you'll eventually find corrupt employees. I'd wager that holds true for any national business; where's the evidence that this actually has something to do with ACORN's management or policies?
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/11/2009 04:52 PM     
  From now on  
We must report the occupations of any criminal we write about here, because that automatically makes whatever company, profession or organization they work in a corrupt entity or system.

Then again, maybe we should abandon the notion of summarizing news altogether. After all, Jayson Blair was a plagiarist, and he worked for a newspaper. The news industry is obviously, therefore, corrupt.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/11/2009 05:59 PM     
not to argue with you but you do it everytime someone in the GOP is in trouble or anytime just a simple American who is a republican does something wrong don't you now. You can not deny this whatsoever

Fair is Fair. Just like the 11 arrested last week for voter fraud this organzation has alot of shady things going on and worst of all the taxpayer pays for it. If its one instance ok I give it to you its just a couple bad apples but when corrupt things keep happening at different branches throughout the country makes you wonder whats really going on.

If this was a right wing organazation that was just caught doing this you and the liberals would be trashing every single republican in the country but you cant speak no ill will of blantant wrong when it comes to other liberals. I'm not trashing all liberals just this organzation much like you guys would if the same thing happened to a right wing org. over and over again
  by: willyshawker     09/11/2009 08:56 PM     
I consider myself to be an Indepenant who leans towards being Libertarian so please do not use the word liberal in the context of how nasty the right tries to make it, thank you.

Here is the problem I have with all the jumping on ACORN right now. With all the branches they have and those that are accused of voted fraud (it is all in Florida if I remember right, someone let me know if I am wrong) it is possible that some of their sites need some major changes. With this specific incident again I want to know why they were cutting things out and going black during other parts. I myself can not trust the tape as it is and it seems like it was done that way to smear ACORN instead of pointing out a serious issue.

Many of the other 1,200 offices give or take a little actually do help people when they need it and it has been around since 1970 so if it was SO corrupt in every location I would think that the government would step in and have an investigation. I just see this whole thing as being another red herring that has been used back and forth by both the mainstream party affiliations.
  by: TaraB     09/11/2009 09:22 PM     
You want to do a little bit better than writing about unknown ACORN employees if you want to match some of the stuff I've dug up and reported on Republicans. I'm writing about officials, high-ranking members, etc. -- not Joe Bloe who voted for McCain and has a collection of Sarah Palin photos on his hard drive.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/11/2009 09:25 PM     
Is anyone still talking about the Minutemen in terms of Shawna Foley? That woman was a leader of that group and actually murdered people, yet I don't know that anyone even remembers that. That's the first example that came to mind for right-wing groups, please suggest a few others if you can think of something similar. I think the fall of prominent Republicans is a little more significant to their party than these two (presumably) relative nobodies is to ACORN.

I'm tired of the spin and political puppetry. We're supposed to be shocked that a couple scumbags can be turned up in a national organization. We're supposed to blame ACORN when they turn in their own people for fraud. Maybe I've just not been drinking the Kool-Aid, but that seems wholly illogical to me.
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/11/2009 09:42 PM     
I'll back off the whole organazation but time after time we see corrupt things coming through different branches

In a case in Washington state where 7 temporary employees of ACORN were charged with submitting fraudulent voter registrations, ACORN agreed to pay King County $25,000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again. According to the prosecutor, the misconduct was done "as an easy way to get paid [by ACORN], not as an attempt to influence the outcome of elections."[18][24] In March 2008 an ACORN worker was sentenced in Pennsylvania for making 29 phony voter registration forms.[25] In August, 2009, ACORN's former Las Vegas director pled guilty to a reduced charge of "conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters" in connection with a quota system for paid registration staff and (a prosecutor claimed) would testify against ACORN's regional office and another ACORN employee.[26] Arrest warrants were issued in Miami on September 9, 2009, for 11 ACORN workers suspected of falsifying information on voter registration cards, after ACORN alerted the state attorney's office following review of hundreds of voter registration cards it suspected were fraudulent. [25]

WHile I hate people being thrown out of thier homes this is equally wrong

Home Defender Program
In 2009, ACORN advocated allowing homeowners delinquent in their mortgage payments to remain in their homes pending a government solution to the housing foreclosure crisis. ACORN introduced a program called the Home Defender Program, intended to mobilize people to congregate at homes faced with foreclosure to "defend a family's right to stay in their homes."[29][30] One ACORN Web page advocated civil disobedience against foreclosure evictions stating that people in foreclosed homes should refuse to leave, and in some cases, move back in.[31]

Reading up on them they have done good to but thier is no doubt in my mind there are more than a few bad apples. I find it hard to believe that the voter fraud is so common w/o the people at the top pushing it. Cant be that many bad apples can there.

My opinion when the group started it was a good group and as time has progressed mainly in present day it has alot of corrupt people and has lost its true purpose
  by: willyshawker     09/11/2009 10:03 PM     
  add DC Officals to

Another video from the DC branch has surfaced and those people have now been fired.

Come on now 2 different branches and pretty much the same thing you cant tell me this stuff doesnt come from the higher ups. You just can't.

All these people can't think alike they have to be getting the info and the autority to tell these people things like this
  by: willyshawker     09/11/2009 10:17 PM     
@MOC-"I'm tired of the spin and political puppetry."

This is exactly how I feel, I am so tired of this crap and I have been trying to avoid it as much as possible because it angers me.

  by: TaraB     09/11/2009 10:26 PM     
Your link is broken:

The same thing happened at two different branches because the same people set up the same scenario at both. It's not like these people stowed a camera away and just happened to catch the same scene playing out as part of ACORN's daily business. I think that really seems pretty obvious.

As for the voter reg fraud, it's not hard to see how that happens without corrdination at the top, either. You give a lot of hard-up folks cards and tell them they're paid to get them filled out, a few among them are going to think they might get away with submitting false entries to make quota. It's not a complicated plan one wouldn't expect people to come up with on their own.

I don't understand how people think ACORN would benefit from this, either. They ended up paying people who lied about the amount of work they did, and unless Mickey Mouse was going to show up to vote, I don't really see a master plan coming together to rig an election. That is, unless one is a person who doesn't understand the difference between voter registration fraud and vote fraud.
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/11/2009 10:57 PM     
  MOC you wrote  
The same thing happened at two different branches because the same people set up the same scenario at both. It's not like these people stowed a camera away and just happened to catch the same scene playing out as part of ACORN's daily business. I think that really seems pretty obvious

That is bull so your making the excuse they didn't know they where being recorded. It don't matter they where set up it matters that these sick people would give that advice to people who they thought were pimps and ho's.

There respose should have been like the other branches these people went to. Goodbye but instead these 2 branches decided to give advice which in return would have had people doing illegal acts.

While IMO these 2 branches did not commit a crime they gave advice that isn't a crime no matter how immoral it is but shouldnt it make us wonder how many times these people have given this advice to people who really were there to avoid taxes and set up illegal business?

How many people are out there in so called "legal" situations but arent really legal because of advice these 2 branches gave out. thats the real question
  by: willyshawker     09/11/2009 11:07 PM     
No, you completely missed the point. You said that because the same thing happened at two different location that one "cant...just can't" say that "this stuff doesnt come from the higher ups." Well, yes I can say that because, different locations aside, it was orchestrated by the same film crew.

Example: Say I walked up to dozens of off-duty Marines across the country and called their mothers whores. Of those dozens, 4 punched me for it. Does that mean that I'd be right in declaring not only that the Marines have violence problems, but that the Marine officers encourage punching civilians because, gee, the same thing happened 4 times? No, because *I* set up the same situation for dozens of people and only a handful took the bait.
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/11/2009 11:25 PM     
If it is a celbrity for almost any reason, you know like movie star, congressman, president, party leader, Pope, it is fair game. If you head hunt a Joe blow to use as an example? Well you can see where this is going. Think son. It is this kind of stuff that paints the republicans with a bad name.
  by: ichi     09/11/2009 11:42 PM     
  Alternate Title  
Republican Workers Try To Set Up Acorn.
  by: ichi     09/11/2009 11:45 PM     
Why is it try. They did and it worked. It's a big conspiracy to bring Acorn down right?

They proved what many have said that they have curropt people in thier organazation. This was a proven fact at 2 seperate offices w/2 seperate staffs.

It doesnt matter that the pimp and ho that went in were conservatives trying to catch them doing something crooked. It's the fact that these worked supplied advice to evade taxes and set up a business that is illegal.

How many times have these workers in question done this w/other people and helped people set up illegal business?

You can not in anyway spin this on the republicans if you do your just as bad as most of them w/flat out lies.

The conservatives in this situation were not wrong the woman working for Acron were wrong and there is no way you can spin it in reverse.

These Acorn branches got caught coming up with ideas and suggesting them to people how to do things illegilly.

What would you say if one of these woman in the past actually helped a man open up a child prostitution ring by using the methods these woman gave to him. Oh Wait I know the answer. It's not thier fault they were trying to be set up.

It doesn't matter that these 2 took the bait they where wrong there in no 2 ways about it and like I said you have to wonder how many illegal so called business's are out there right now using the tools these branches gave them
  by: willyshawker     09/12/2009 12:41 AM     
You can't even prove the branches had anything to do with it, so you may as well stop talking about that, too. You got two people in two offices, stick with the facts.

Now that you mention it, I think I will fault those wannabe journalists. Maybe if they'd dealt with a legitimate charge (i.e. voter reg fraud) instead of a scenario so ridiculous that they'd be sure to get on TV, they might've gotten something accomplished besides just letting some Republicans feel good about being "right" about ACORN.
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/12/2009 01:07 AM     
so your saying these woman did nothing wrong and its all just a farce?

I say these branches becuase they worked for the branches and I very seriously doubt its the first time this has been said by these workers. Acorn has somewhat of a shady past so it is totally appropiorate to consider the branch and not just the workers.

This has nothing to do with the republicans feeling good they where right in anyway grow up some its not always about that. My issue is you have yet to admit of any wrong doing.

I forget anyhting a liberal does wrong is just a set up by the right wing neo cons. What a F'n Joke. At least the right can halfway admit when they are wrong. The left has to be right no matter how wrong they may be.

That is the only aspect about the republicans I respect every once in awhile they will man up and say they were wrong. Liberals will not no matter the cost.

I'll always stand by this statement right now today President Obama could go out and rob a woman at gunpoint and the liberals and liberal media would say he did nothing wrong it was just the neo cons trying to set him up. Every single liberal here knows that statement is so true. Dare deny it. You guys are all the same its always the neo cons fault. Hell we could have 30 straight years of democratic Presidents and things be F'd up and in 29 years from now it would still be Bushs fault.
  by: willyshawker     09/12/2009 01:22 AM     
Try barking that "OMG LIBERAL!" nonsense up another tree, I'm a Libertarian. Funny enough, I gave up on your little Republican party when I saw how THEY handled the truth. It's one thing for Dems to quibble about morality and responsibility, it's another for Reps to do so when they tend to only unwrap themselves from the cloak of righteousness to choke their opponents with it. So don't hand me that, "Republicans man up" crap, I've been waiting for that day for too long. They're the same politicians, one group's just more smug until they get caught and that bugs the hell out of me.

Back to business, when did I say the women did nothing wrong? Of course the women did something wrong, but I'm sick of guys like you taking an inch like that and running a mile with it and treating everyone else like a fool for not coming along. Do you know these women had any significant standing at that branch? Did they consult managers on tape when giving this advice? Did they do anything to establish that this was run-of-the-mill stuff at that location? Do you have anything to confirm your assumptions other than what you "very seriously doubt?"
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/12/2009 02:17 AM     
This one's too good to pass up:

"I'll always stand by this statement right now today President Obama could go out and rob a woman at gunpoint and the liberals and liberal media would say he did nothing wrong it was just the neo cons trying to set him up."

Was that the woman with the backwards 'B' carved into her face, by any chance? Yeah, great example. ;)

That you'd open your trap with a line like this after the right made excuses for Bush for 8 years, at least half the time by blaming Clinton, is amazing.
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/12/2009 02:25 AM     
I dont like the fact the right blamed Clinton for everything either its idiotic but now the left is doing the same thing w/Bush.

There is a certain window where I feel you can blame the previous admin and that is 6 months after that its on you.

Anyway The Census Bureau just cut ties w/ACORN today
  by: willyshawker     09/12/2009 02:35 AM     
Six months? You would honestly say that drawing such an arbitrary line makes sense? That a President can clean up in 6 months what it took the last guy 4-8 years to do? Really?
  by: MomentOfClarity     09/12/2009 02:43 AM     
So the Census cut ties with a whole company over this? Are you and your Republican buddies doing a happy dance Willy? I mean because even though you try to deny it you give jabs to anything that is supported by the Democrats about 95% of the time. The other 5% you start yelling about how you want the typical bullshit politicians and the left and right do to stop. THEN you posted this which is just what you are screaming for people to stop.

#1 The video for the first one is not a total uncut video so it should not be worth ANYTHING. If O'Keefe and Giles wanted to use it they should have left it with warts and all because like I said before now we will never know what was cut from the video.

#2 Yet again when were these people hired and do they have any ties with conservative or Anti-ACORN groups? I find it a little TOO coincidental that the same thing was being done at both offices while the SAME 2 people showed up with a video camera and got the SAME reaction after it did not work at any of the other places they had tried. Would I believe it was a set up? Yes right now I would since they did not give the full video and they all of a sudden cancelled all the interviews and stopped returning calls when questions were asked about the video being cut and censored.

Yet wasn't you the one also saying how Glenn Beck was wronged by by sponsors leaving? And yet you enjoy it on this summary. You do realize you are doing everything you claim you hate about others doing?
  by: TaraB     09/12/2009 04:17 AM     
I never said Beck was wronged, I said it was a major backfire which it was it brought him in more ratings and more people for him to spew his garbage to. Which a majority of what he says is garbage but occasionally he speaks some truth

I give crap to both sides 95 percent of the time I dont agree w/most of what any of them do.

I'm not happy this story came to light nor am I happy that the census bureau dropped Acorn. I'm actually kinda sad this stuff goes on. I personally think Acron does alot of corrupt shit and this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is just way to much going on in ACORN for me to believe this is just a few bad apples. Time after time we see them in the news with more controversy around them.

My mission isn't to bring down Acorn I could really care less unless they are doing crooked stuff and in this case thier employees where. I am to interested in why the video has blacked out parts.

I find myself to be very fair and balanced in everything while I have values that side w/the conservative realm I also like some of the ideas the left has. I'm a mix of pretty much everything you could say
  by: willyshawker     09/12/2009 08:15 AM     
Funny, I don't remember you ever saying anything about Young Political Majors.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/12/2009 08:25 AM     
I have said it but am willing to say it again I could care less about ACORN personally. What I do worry about is the sites that are actually helping people being overshadowed by this because so many people have no idea what the hell they signed in the first place with a majority of these mortgages that have been and the trickle down ones that are barely hanging on.

So many people that are poor have rented enough slumlords apartments and/or lived in HUD housing and just want to get out and be able to afford a nice home. They were led to believe that they could actually pass it off when all these banks started handing out mortgages like they were ice cubes on a 110 degree day.

I know I sound like a record player today/this evening and I apologize to anyone that is tired of seeing it. I don't trust O'Keefe and Giles because it just seems a little TOO perfect to find 2 sites that said the same thing. I would think that if employees are actually telling people how to pimp out minors that there would be law officials looking into it.

I am more moderate than conservative or *liberal* I like to think. I will give anyone a chance until they prove me wrong and if that happens then I will be the first in line to kick their butts out of their job.
  by: TaraB     09/12/2009 08:27 AM     
you wrote They were led to believe that they could actually pass it off when all these banks started handing out mortgages like they were ice cubes on a 110 degree day."

I really don't feel sorry for those people common sense tells you if you make 25,000 a year you cant afford a 500,000 dollar home. Common Sense tells you to read every piece of the loan you sign. Common Sense tells you to ask question etc.

I don't even feel bad for the ones who could afford it but at the time signed arm loans that is thier issue they should have read it.

I don't care if a bank tells me one thing or any business I'm going to research it untill I know everything about it.

I may sound horrible but they are personally responsible for thier situation and I don't blame the banks one bit, they should have had to suffer by going out of business but instead we gave them millions of dollars to stay open and screw people w/mediocre credit by not allowing them to take out loans becuase of thier screwup.
  by: willyshawker     09/12/2009 01:41 PM     
In other words, you think another Great Depression should have happened in order to teach certain people a lesson.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/12/2009 07:15 PM     
don't use fear like the republicans in no way do we know that would have happened. Some economist say yes others say no thats the facts.

Fact business's fail all the time and the next business that comes along learns from the old business mistakes and doesnt do those same things.

All we did was further our debt by loaning out that money and are still in limbo w/ that so called depression you just brought up. You do realize it could still go either way!

We arent better off I dont care what some of these economist say we are on the verge of a country bankruptcy due to the iresponsibility of the Bush admin and the Obama admin thus far
  by: willyshawker     09/12/2009 07:48 PM     
Willy: You should only feel horrible about thinking you might be horrible for expecting people to take personal responsibility for their actions. As for the rest of your comments in this thread, I concur with MOC. I need not add anything.

Ben: When was learning a lesson from one's mistakes declared a bad thing? Oh never mind, I forgot about the "New Deal".

  by: bbeljefe     09/15/2009 04:49 AM     
  This Gotcha Style Is So O'Reilly  
Is this inherent in the Right? Do they really have no sense of decency? Are they born with such a lack of respect for others or are the made this way by the greed around them?

Their behavior is really starting to disgust me.
  by: ichi     09/15/2009 11:15 PM     
Would you have been willing to risk another Great Depression, which is indeed what happened the last time we had a bank panic in America?

@BB -- This isn't just about making the people who screwed up learn a lesson. It's also about how many lives would be destroyed if we forced an elite few to learn a lesson. It wouldn't just have been the Wall Street elitists who would have suffered if we'd just sat back and let them fail, and if you believe otherwise, you're hopelessly naive.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/15/2009 11:23 PM     
  @willy again  
It's really obvious that you're trying to manipulate me into avoiding using the consequences of not bailing out the banking industry as an arguing point by associating such an argument with the Republicans, but let me explain to you why that doesn't work.

What I'm talking about was real. When the banking industry collapses, it takes the economy with it. Open a damn history book if you think this is an undecided issue.

When the Republicans try to scare people, they lie. They say we have an illegal alien Muslim socialist Nazi in the White House who wants to Francify America and pull the plug on Grandma.

I assume you do understand that there is a difference between truth and fiction.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/15/2009 11:28 PM     
  No Ben, I'm not naive at all.  
I'm not so naive as to think letting bankers and corporations fail won't tank our economy nor am I so naive as to think that we can pump money into a broken system and keep doing the same things we've been doing.

Think of it this way Ben... when 9/11 happened everyone was so excited that Americans could actually stand united in the face of catastrophe. Well sir, Americans should again become united in the face of the catastrophe that we have brought upon ourselves. Our financial system doesn't work, our money is fast losing value and our citizens have mortgaged and borrowed themselves into poverty. It's not only the lenders who wrote bad paper that are responsible. It's also the borrowers who signed promissory notes they couldn't afford and much of the time, had little or no need for.

In short, Americans are the reason our economy is in the shitter. Not just American businessmen or American Politicians. As such, all Americans need to learn a lesson and start practicing some sort of financial responsibility.

  by: bbeljefe     09/16/2009 12:12 AM     
Good! I take it, then, that you support our president's call for tougher regulations on the financial industry, which comes on the heels of the increased enforcement he put into place earlier this year.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/16/2009 12:35 AM     
  Well Ben...  
I fully support tougher enforcement of practical laws and in that respect, I stand firmly behind our president.

Regulation, however, is not needed. The largest problem our financial sector has and in as much as I can see, the single most destructive force in causing this economic meltdown are derivatives and credit default swaps. These are financial instruments which meet no other practical description than outright crapshooting with mortgages and securities. They were outlawed, I believe, in 1911 or somewhere along that time, only to be unleashed back onto us by non other than Bill Clinton. In fact, if memory serves me, that was the last piece of legislation Mr. Clinton signed on his way out the door. So your beloved Clinton, with the stroke of his Presidential pen, effectively signed the US economy's death warrant.

Sorry for the semi tangent.. So no, I don't support any notion that Obama might have for regulating financial instruments as volatile as credit default swaps or derivatives of any kind. I will only support the outlawing of them... again. Not because they are gambling, but because they are essentially gambling with other people's money and without their consent.

  by: bbeljefe     09/16/2009 01:27 AM     
It's kind of unfair to blame that all on Clinton, as I'm fairly certain you actually know, right?
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/16/2009 01:45 AM     
  I didn't blame it all on Clinton, Ben.  
I do blame Clinton for signing the bill that allowed these instruments to be used in the financial sector, but that's only because he is the one who signed the bill.

If you read back through my comments you will see that I did not lay all of the blame for our economic ruin on credit default swaps or derivatives, either. What I said was that they were the largest single ingredient and I stand by that. The fact that Clinton signed the bill lays a great deal of blame on his shoulders but by no means is it a blanket accusation that he alone caused the problems the USA has with money management. We had those problems before he was president and we still have them to this day. All he did was add a deadly ingredient to the cauldron of stew we had been brewing for so many years.

While I am no fan of Bill Clinton, there is no question he is a very learned man who understands far more about our financial system's constructs than do most Americans. With that knowledge, I must question why he would enact legislation that he should have known would become destructive to our economy. The only answer I can come up with is that either he didn't understand what he was signing or he figured his legacy and fortune would be rock solid before the snowball grew large enough to crush our country.

See... I don't blame it all on him. You know I don't like generalizations and blanket assumptions. ;)

  by: bbeljefe     09/16/2009 02:29 AM     
Yeah, Clinton signed it. Republicans wrote it, Democrats re-wrote it, and by the time all was said and done, pretty much everybody involved thought they had a pretty good bill. I mean, it passed the Senate 90-8. Clinton couldn't have vetoed that bill if he'd wanted to.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/16/2009 02:44 AM     
  And it passed the House  
... 362-57. The Democrats still had the most members not voting in favor of it, and are to be credited for adding information that protected citizens' privacy to the bill.
  by: l´anglais     09/16/2009 02:48 AM     
  @Ben 'anglais  
Or should that be Benand'alias?

In any event, I understand that. The Republicans who framed and supported the bill are just as much to blame as Clinton and all the Democrats who supported it.

Actions and motives aside, however, that doesn't change the affects of said legislation. While that information might take Willy out of the limelight, it certainly doesn't relieve him of any responsibility.

Still, I can't help but wonder about these people's actions and motives...

  by: bbeljefe     09/16/2009 03:04 AM     
Well, it's not that difficult to understand, really. We have a government that you need lots and lots of money to get elected into. So the people who have lots and lots of money -- big corporations, wealthy individuals -- give that money to candidates in exchange for their service.

The reason this country looks like it's run by the corporations is because it IS. This is why I hate corporations in the first place.

And I used the l'anglais name because I wanted you to see I'd replied. The Graham-Leach-Bliley Act would have passed no matter what Clinton did, and you should be honest about that.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/16/2009 03:22 AM     
  Okay Ben.... since you think I was being dishonest  
I will make it simple. Yes, I see your point, Mr. Clinton was mere shill in this whole piece of legislation. It's all the Republican's fault and the Democrats fought tooth and nail to stop this evil from being foisted upon the poor, helpless, stoopid American citizens.

That make you feel better?

Seriously, though... While my last post might have been a bit cryptic (especially if you didn't listen to or comprehend the lyrics of the song), I was saying that while our public servants portray an outward image of benevolence and caring, we must look past that which we are shown in order to see the truth behind the performance. In simple terms... it is through their actions (not their words) that we see their motives.

You choose to hold Clinton harmless while at the same time pointing out that it wouldn't have mattered anyway because he couldn't have stopped it. To that I ask: Why did he sign it, then? Was it peer pressure? Why would a lame duck president give a damn what his opposition thought of his position (assuming he did in fact, oppose this bill) if this legislation violated his principles? Surely his integrity means more to him than his popularity, doesn't it? After all, that's what he and his ilk tell us over and over.

I have to question these things Ben. Not because I'm confrontational but because my principals won't allow me to gloss over them. I have my own answers to these questions as I'm sure you do as well. I can't speak for you, but as I stated above, my answers come from examination of actions and motives, not words and charisma.

  by: bbeljefe     09/16/2009 05:02 AM     
My answer is that Clinton was so God-damned determined to have at least a few people from the lunatic right *like* him, to remember as someone who "reached across the aisle," that he did stupid things, thinking their opinions of him would soften. Chalk up NAFTA to the same impulse.
  by: Ben_Reilly     09/16/2009 07:33 AM     
  So, in other words, Ben,  
you think that Clinton put his popularity ahead of his integrity.

Interesting. Tell me again why it is you look up to this man?

  by: bbeljefe     09/16/2009 09:38 AM     
  Draw your conclusions  
Mao's Communist Party Flag

ACORN's flag

  by: Big Bird     09/17/2009 01:11 PM     
  @turd bird
What's your point?

Texas flag
Chile flag
Is Texas over run with Chileans? Chili to be sure but Chileans?
  by: VermiciousG     09/17/2009 02:38 PM     
SN's text to hyperlink process could use some work

Chile flag
  by: VermiciousG     09/17/2009 02:43 PM     
You're still verminous, I peck at your soulles socialist eyes.
  by: Big Bird     09/17/2009 03:10 PM     
  @turd bird  
That was a pretty lame attempt at avoiding my question.
  by: VermiciousG     09/17/2009 03:16 PM     
  wb Big Bird  
I was hoping, er I meant thinking that one of those giant Pythons the rednecks in Florida are setting loose had gotten you. ;)

  by: bbeljefe     09/17/2009 03:31 PM     
  I must say i find one thing amusing with this mess  
There is one 'minor' hitch to the 'pimp and prostitutes' plan, they can't really charge the Acorn employees with what they have filed

The most they could be charged with is being co-conspirators to start a prostitution ring and being co-conspirators to similar things.

Can anybody guess who the two main conspirators would be?

Ayupp, to actually convict the acorn people the 'pimp and prostitute' would actually hold center stage in the trials as the main conspirators
  by: bloodwave   09/28/2009 11:50 AM     
  filmed even, not filed(in the post above)  
as a side note, i must admit i would have loved to see the unedited film since i find the cuts and blackouts to be suspicous
  by: bloodwave   09/28/2009 02:30 PM     
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