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07/01/2011 09:57 AM ID: 89953 Permalink   

Amazon Ends Relationships With California Associates

 

Amazon announced yesterday that it will end its relationships with associates from Calinfornia, as a new law would force Amazon to collect sales taxes as long as it has affiliates in CA.

The bill was signed on Thursday in the course of California´s budget deal.
Amazon said "We oppose this bill because it is unconstitutional and counterproductive," but the lawmakers support the law.

In recent years, Connecticut, Illinois, New York, North Carolina, Arkansas and Rhode Island have introduced similar laws and Amazon ended all affiliates there except for NY where the mega-retailer has filed a lawsuite against the state.

 
  Source: money.cnn.com  
    WebReporter: walktheline Show Calling Card      
  Recommendation:  
ASSESS this news: BLOCK this news. Reason:
   
  52 Comments
  
  Hmmm  
 
Nice work CA
 
  by: T-bagger   07/01/2011 11:01 AM     
  Brown is an Idiot  
 
He actually has around 470 million in tax revenue from Amazon incorporated into the budget. Now California won´t see a penny of that, and we won´t get a penny of income tax from the layoffs after 25,000 businesses are reported to have gone out of business as Amazon dropped them as a result of this bill. California had the largest online advertising industry in the world. Now it doesn´t even have one.
 
  by: Tetsuru Uzuki     07/01/2011 05:48 PM     
  Central-planners  
 
This is what drives away business. Central -planners regulation/taxes. Businesses dont care about politicians problems and they dont care about you getting re-elected. Business is not a charity, sure we will give away money for charitable reasons, but not by force built into our balance sheet. We need to compete against other businesses, so if u take our money by force, we will leave.

So how about not promising all this free stuff to people and mortgage away the future, in the name of getting elected. People get screwed and confused about how they can have everything, everybody shares, everybody is happy if we all just chip into your plan.

Socialism always bankrupts, look at Michigan and other states. If you think Socialism works fundementally, how bout the next time you have dinner, i will stop by and take 50% o your food to feed myself, lets see how long you will follow this plan. What the majority of American Socialists dont realize is that the majority of their prosperity over the past decades has been borrowed. Borrowed to the tune of 14.3 Trillion dollars. Completely absent from any real economics, now they owe it back plus interest! Thats right central-planners, the party is over. I could live like a rock star if i had an endless borrowing limit too. Its all a ponzi scheme people. Madoff would be a perfect replacement for Geithner

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/01/2011 06:17 PM     
  ^^^^^  
 
Tennessee is going through a similar thing. Our legislators made a deal with Amazon that they would NOT force them to collect sales taxes if they came to our state. They have come to our state and are building two huge distribution warehouses. Now the state attorney general has ruled that the state can collect those taxes. The bribed Republicans are promising to make Amazon collect taxes. If they do, Amazon will stop work and pull out. If the legislators stick to the original agreement, Amazon says it will build more warehouses in Tennessee. I thought Republicans were for jobs and were against taxes. In Tennessee it seems they are only FOR lobbyists. I guess they like their bribes.
 
  by: Lurker     07/01/2011 06:37 PM     
  @Lurker  
 
Bingo! You are seeing how corrupt the system is. (fascism/lobbyists) have taken over the government. Its all about special favors and greed. These Repubs are not free-market capitalists Americans have a choice between Dems(Socialist/lobbyist) & Repubs(Corportism/lobbyists) its a lose/lose either way, some people are just better at campaign speeches. The free-market capitalist(prosperity) is in the Ron Paul camp

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/01/2011 06:56 PM     
  It´s really worse  
 
Than what was covered in that article.

Amazon is only one player in the game. Overstock.com and many other on-line retailers have also terminated their affiliates.

According to some business news articles "the biggest affiliates move to other states" (that is historic info) while the mom and pop type folks who can´t leave take it on the chin.

 
  by: Talesman12   07/01/2011 07:28 PM     
  playing dumb  
 
It is not dumb if every single state forces amazon to pay taxes. And then this whole ´partnerships´ thing? amazon can choose to continue doing business with americans or get the fvck out and let someone else do business with americans.

All it takes is 1 state to play dumb and the whole thing fails.
 
  by: kmazzawi     07/01/2011 07:41 PM     
  @kmazzawi  
 
Taking money by force is not called doing business.

On a side note, I promised my buddy Jimmy $5,000 for his new dirt-bike. But since I cant come up with the money, Im just going to take $3,000 of your own money.

You surely dont have a problem with this do you?

You have quite the Communist mentality unfortunately

[ edited by t-bagger ]
 
  by: t-bagger   07/01/2011 08:17 PM     
  Hope and change and Yes we can  
 
let these pathetic lawmakers (part time elected employees) destroy our children´s future. Whether you want to admit it or not that is exactly what is happening.
You can call them whatever you want and believe one side is better then the other. We can keep hoping there will be a change. But it is getting harder to ignore the writing on the wall. It is sad to see a country so divided by so many intelligent people who are so hell bent on there side of the isle being right they push blame to the other side. By doing so they close their eyes to the fact it is both sides selling us out.

This government spends and spends money we don´t have then turns around and makes it our fault.
We need JOBS and then they do this? How is this in our best interest? Who cares what side of the isle decided to do this? What has either side done to bring this mess to a close? The only thing I see is no matter what way I turn they demand more and more of my hard earned money and things continue to get worse and I am sinking.

I wonder if the American people will ever wake up to the reality that neither side is in our best interest. We need to get rid of them all. Change the law, if a candidate promises something then is elected and fails to produce the promise he is fired and we move onto the next one. Any law that applies to us also applies to them. Tax dollars do not fund their retirement and health care. They buy their own like we do.
We really need to take our country back and let these people know who works for who before we don´t have a dime left to fight back with.
 
  by: hellblazer     07/01/2011 08:24 PM     
  @t-bagger  
 
"Bingo! You are seeing how corrupt the system is."

No, not "Bingo". What Lurker was talking about has nothing to do with corruption, although his biased explanation tends to lean that way.

He´s so uninformed, he doesn´t even know what´s happening in his own state. I tried explaining this to him in this post:

I thought Republicans were anti tax…”
We are. Notice that we’re one of the few states in the nation without a state income-tax? When Dems were suggesting charging taxes on “the rich”, Tennesseans from all classes fought against it. They realized that once we started down the state income-tax route, it wouldn’t be long before we went from taxing “the rich” to taxing “the rich and the middle class”. The Republicans struck down every proposal for a state income-tax.

“And your Republican legislatures have done all they can to drive Amazon out of Tennessee…”
No. They’ve been trying to play the middle.
Here’s a real-world example…
I searched the web for the lowest price for the laptop I recently bought. Best Buy had the best price. Amazon had the second-best price, because it was $100 more expensive. However, I could have driven to my nearest Best Buy and bought the laptop I wanted, but sales-tax was going to be around $200. I tried buying it online, thinking that I could avoid sales tax. Guess what? Best Buy was going to charge me tax AND shipping if I bought it online. I ended up buying it from Amazon --- they didn’t charge sales tax and shipping was free. I saved over $100 compared to what I would have paid at Best Buy.

Our local businesses are aware that thrifty shoppers are looking for the best deals.
If you wanted to buy a big-ticket item, wouldn’t you want to avoid paying sales tax? Exactly, and our businesses realize this. They were pretty upset that a major competitor was moving into town and selling the same products at a comparable price… without having to charge for sales tax.

The Repubs were split on this for the reasons I’ve mentioned. They’ve finally tabled the proposals and Amazon will get their way.
http://www.bizjournals.com/...

http://www.shortnews.com/...
 
  by: carnold     07/01/2011 08:38 PM     
  This is no surprise coming from California.  
 
Los Angeles has driven millions upon millions of dollars out of it´s economy over the years by forcing movie makers to film in other states.

On top of taxes, the city charges so many permit fees, et al, that a few years ago a based in Los Angeles movie was filmed in Shreveport, LA. Labor costs aren´t much different here because of the unions but the production company probably saved seven or eight million dollars simply by not filming the movie in the city in which its story line is based.

California is a shining example of how being business friendly increases jobs and bolsters the economy. They´re unfriendly to business & broke with an abnormally high rate of unemployment and we´re business friendly & doing fine with a much lower rate of employment.

This isn´t rocket science...
 
  by: silencedmajority   07/01/2011 09:06 PM     
  @carnold  
 
No Bingo? come on man, I was on a roll.

No income tax eh? huh, I always thought the South was stupid but if they dont have an income tax they actually undertand economics.

Taxing production side(and yes this goes for labour as well! as its production)is disasterous economic policy. Why hurt the people that produce the goods for all of the world to consume. Whats ironic in this story is that consumption tax is a better tax system to fund any Socialism Program. Too many reasons to type but google will help you out.

Im starting to change my mind about the south, thanks for rocking my beliefs CA
 
  by: t-bagger   07/01/2011 09:12 PM     
  @t-bagger  
 
"I always thought the South was stupid..."

That´s understandable. When people hear someone like Lurker spewing his garbage, it’s easy to understand how/why people would assume everyone from the south is like that uneducated cow-tipping sister-kissing mayonnaise-sandwich-eating hayseed hick.

Tennessee was ranked #1 as the most business friendly state. (June 23, 2011)
http://www.businessinsider.com/...

Per the link:
“Tennessee’s low cost of living, fourth lowest state and local tax burden and manageable budget gap place it first in this year’s tax and regulation rankings, up two places from 2010. The...state...has long been known for its business-friendly legislature and for how its Commissioners of Economic Development and Revenue work together to make this “No Surprises” regulatory policy possible.


Facts about Tennessee from the report:
- Manufacturers are offered sales tax reductions.
- Large industrial employers investing $100 million+ are able to carry losses over the state´s 15 year threshold.
- The Job Tax Credit gives job creating businesses a break on excise and franchise taxes.
- No personal income tax.”

While the “know-it-all” pinko Liberals argue that giving tax breaks to companies is awful, Tennessee is a testament of their worth. As a result, middle Tennessee (Nashville area) hasn’t been nearly as affected by the recession as other parts of the nation. Our home prices have remained relatively stable, as a result, and construction is strong.

We have Nissan. They will now begin creating batteries for the Leaf (their all-electric car) in Smyrna, TN. A few years ago, Nissan’s North America headquarters FLED California and came to Nashville/Franklin.
We now have Volkswagen producing cars in Chattanooga.
Memphis is home to FedEx’s corporate headquarters and main distribution hub.
We have Dell warehouses, shipping centers, and customer service centers.
We have call centers for Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T, and Sprint.
We’re home to the world’s largest device-insurance company.
As mentioned earlier, Amazon made it home to their distribution center.
We’re home to HCA (Hospital Corporation of America)
While Nashville is known as “Music City”, it’s also known and the Healthcare capitol of the South.
“Nashville’s health care industry contributes nearly $30 billion and 210,000 jobs to the local economy, according to an economic impact study released today by the Nashville Health Care Council. The industry also has a far global reach, with 56 health care company headquarters* that generate nearly 400,000 jobs and more than $62 billion in revenues worldwide.”
http://www.arxllc.com/...

Many more companies in the recording and entertainment industry are leaving California (namely, Los Angeles) and calling Nashville home.
 
  by: carnold     07/01/2011 09:53 PM     
  @CA  
 
"Facts about Tennessee from the report:
- Manufacturers are offered sales tax reductions.
- Large industrial employers investing $100 million are able to carry losses over the state?s 15 year threshold.
- The Job Tax Credit gives job creating businesses a break on excise and franchise taxes."

While I dont really agree with this, im sure its there to offset any Socialist agenda driving business away.

Business exists to make money. Free-markets create an even playing field for everybody to play in, people can punish businesses in this system. People that dont understand economics usually fall into Socialism. Business doesnt give a sh*t about a politicians agenda to get elected by promising the "utopian" world they campaign for votes. Big business(corporatism) however cares about politicians if they can persuade them to get laws passed to favor their business.

So when Government raises costs on business, (who creates the jobs for people, who spend money on each other, to flow the economy) they say "screw you buddy, i dont give a sh*t on your power grab" and everybody loses(economy) because they buy into this utopian world the politician cons you into believing So why dont people see this? Why dont we lose the Socialist garbage so we dont need all these corporate breaks. Its an evil cycle that the Socialist lose everytime, because whether they like it or not, entreprenuers/business has the jobs people needs. If you dont use force on us, we wont need incentives to stay in you state

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/01/2011 11:22 PM     
  Ps  
 
Disclaimer:

If you dont understand why business is there to make money and how it benefits the economy and everybody, and you jump right into the "greed" argument, you should probably stop yourself from commenting and learn economics, because you will make a fool of yourself, as you have listened to too many politicians

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/01/2011 11:40 PM     
  Brain Dead  
 
...Liberals at it again.

Stupid is as stupid does and you can´t fix stupid only vote them out of office. The problem is that showing an ID is racist; and you thought Chicago was corrupt with dead people voting.
 
  by: Mr.Science   07/02/2011 12:55 AM     
  @Carnold  
 
"... it’s easy to understand how/why people would assume everyone from the south is like that uneducated cow-tipping sister-kissing mayonnaise-sandwich-eating hayseed hick."

I´m from the north, and I prefer mayonnaise and relish sandwiches, myself... As far as cow tipping... that was more fun just watching my brothers trying to accomplish it =P

 
  by: vlynxy   07/02/2011 05:37 AM     
  Who Pays?  
 
People seem to believe they should not pay taxes. Doesn´t someone has to pay for the roads, the bridges? All those things we have that they don´t in Somalia where their in no government.

As for those who have no problem with things like the Iraq war, who pays for that?

How about the billions of unaccountable cash pushed out the rear of a C17 over Iraq? Look it up if you don´t believe me. Where does that come from?

Ok, if you say taxes kill the economy, please explain how it should work.

I´ll have to continue to believe that our problem isn´t spending, but paying. "Charge it" was what Bush did and there were no complaints from the right. And we had a balanced budget until Bush fixed that problem.

[ edited by Jim8 ]
 
  by: Jim8   07/03/2011 05:04 AM     
  @Jim  
 
http://www.lewrockwell.com/...

I just learnt something too. This seems so much better
 
  by: T-bagger   07/03/2011 06:59 PM     
  I Have to Admit I Learnt Something Too  
 
The past tense of "learn" is learnt.

Aside from that, private roads do work, in some cases. Roads aside, I find it interesting that those who wave the flag the most, and have "support the troops" sticker on the back of their SUV, don´t see this support as extending to financially supporting the wars they seem to want us to fight.

I also see plenty of these SUVs with these stickers on public roads.

Libertarianism sounds good until you think it out, then the whole concept falls apart.

It is ok with me if you stay off public roads, though.

Are you aware that the Tea Party was founded and funded by the Koch brothers? I´ll bet you don´t know how you are being used. And probably don´t care.
 
  by: Jim8   07/04/2011 05:31 PM     
  @T-bagger  
 
There is another point that I´d like to make, the concept of private roads is what makes gated communities so desirable.

A gated community denies access to those who don´t pay for the roads. Unfortunately this leads to being surrounded only by those who think the same way. This is, of course the attraction to home schooling.

As long as you are capable of paying for your private roads you can wall yourself off from the masses. Sorry to break it to you, but you are probably among the masses you seem to want to escape.

[ edited by Jim8 ]
 
  by: Jim8   07/04/2011 05:43 PM     
  @Jim8  
 
i dont really follow what you are talking about, i dont see it playing out the way you think. The problem about thinking it out on your own, is people fall for false assumptions.

Why would a company want to reduce business by putting gates up everywhere?
The money the government takes from you for roads, you will have in your pockets, reducing your taxes. You are already paying for roads, for everybody, whether you use them or not.
As far as Tea Party goes, it is a false media spin. Ron Paul is the father of the Tea Party. Ron Paul came before Tea Party. Real Tea Partiers follow Paul. They want people to think we support Bachmann or Pailn. That insults our intelligence. Those candidates are for the fringe Tea Partiers, that dont understand what the Tea Party is really about.



 
  by: T-bagger   07/04/2011 09:09 PM     
  @t-bagger  
 
"Real Tea Partiers follow Paul. ... That insults our intelligence."

The truly intelligent follow nothing besides their own good judgment. Maybe you ought to try to develop your own rather than follow *anybody.*
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/04/2011 09:28 PM     
  @Ben  
 
Jesus Ben, get a life. Its people that understand the Constitution, economics and liberty. Not just follow blindly.

You should listen to him

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/05/2011 01:13 AM     
  @t-bagger  
 
You are quick to jump personal insults, aren´t you?

I´ve probably read more about Ron Paul than you have. I just don´t stop with the material that supports him; I also read his detractors to get an unbiased view of him.

Oh, and by the way, your "real tea party members support Paul" statement is further undermined by the fact that the tea party ran candidates against Paul to try to beat him in the 2010 elections:

http://www.foxnews.com/...

And though I´ve already said this a lot, and I´m sure I´ll say it plenty more times, Ron Paul followers are not the only people who understand the constitution, liberty and economics. They just apparently *think* they are and enjoy telling non-Paul followers that they don´t understand economics, liberty or the constitution, which in my opinion makes them come across as a cult of douchebags.
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/05/2011 05:18 AM     
  @Ben  
 
"The truly intelligent follow nothing besides their own good judgment. Maybe you ought to try to develop your own rather than follow *anybody.*"

Ben this is your biggest downfall.

"Economics is not politics. One is a science, concerned with the immutable and constant laws of nature that determine the production and distribution of wealth; the other is the art of ruling"- Chodorov

Because you use your judgement, you are constantly getting owned on here by others who understand the science. FYI Keynes wasnt an economist. Ron Paul is the closest economist we have that is running for politics. He also understands the difference between "collectivist" and "individual"

Every wonder why the global economy is screwed up? I would advise to stop acting arrogent and study. PS. I dont give a sh*t about the Tea Party. Your thinking "collectivist" again

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/05/2011 05:30 AM     
  ^^^  
 
F*ck the teabaggin´ tea party.
 
  by: Lurker     07/05/2011 05:42 AM     
  @Ben  
 
K, tell us why the Austrian Business Cycle is wrong?
 
  by: T-bagger   07/05/2011 06:04 AM     
  @t-bagger  
 
"Ben this is your biggest downfall."

Thinking for myself is my biggest downfall?

""Economics is not politics. One is a science, concerned with the immutable and constant laws of nature that determine the production and distribution of wealth; the other is the art of ruling"- Chodorov"

"I´ve found that people who over-rely on quotes from famous people often do so because they have no original thoughts of their own." - Ben_Reilly

"Because you use your judgement, you are constantly getting owned on here by others who understand the science."

Let´s take a look at what the Austrian school "scientists" said about their "science." This will also feed into your affection for quotes:

"Its statements and propositions are not derived from experience. ... They are not subject to verification and falsification on the ground of experience and facts."

Ludwig Von Mises, on his "science´s" lack of methodology

Hayek asserted in "Individualism and Economic Order" that social sciences such as his could "never be verified or falsified by reference to facts."

Indeed, Austrian school adherents are at times even eager to distinguish what they do from science, asserting that it is more akin to philosophy (and they´re absolutely right). As Hoppe writes:

"It is this assessment of economics ... which distinguishes Austrians, or more precisely Misesians, from all other current economic schools. All the others conceive of economics as an empirical science ..."

Science is the formulation and testing of hypotheses. Even advanced theoretical physics is tested, either through the use of mathematical models or in real-world experiments such as those conducted in super-colliders.

Austrian economics, on the other hand, interprets history or current events in ways that make them retroactively fit existing theories. It is a constant application of confirmation bias; where science begins with observation and ends with theory, Austrian economics begins with a rigid set of largely untestable theories that are then used to interpret the observed economy.

"FYI Keynes wasnt an economist."

Says who? If Keynes wasn´t an economist, why does "Keynesian economics" exist, with millions of people who know about it and talk about it? There is much more to economics than your narrow-minded worldview seems prepared to allow.

"Ron Paul is the closest economist we have that is running for politics. He also understands the difference between "collectivist" and "individual""

Ron Paul is a gynecologist who has listened to a lot of Austrian school figures´ opinions on economics. By the way, being a medical doctor makes him a biologist, and he is a biologist who does not believe in evolution. In other words, he´s a quack who rejects reality.

I understand the difference between a collectivist and an individual, too. A collectivist is someone who understands the world, and thinks it should be shaped and governed, in a way that prioritizes groups of people or society as a whole over individual rights. An individual is a synonym of "person," "man," "woman," etc.

I think you mean to distinguish between collectivism (you´re probably just used to throwing around "collectivist" as an insult and accidentally typed that instead) and individualism. They´re not difficult concepts to understand. Generally societies find that it´s important to strike a balance between the interests of the people as a whole and individual rights and liberties. And that tension is where most politics originate.

"Every wonder why the global economy is screwed up? I would advise to stop acting arrogent and study. PS. I dont give a sh*t about the Tea Party. Your thinking "collectivist" again""

I know the broad-stroke reasons the global economy is screwed up. And if you don´t care about the Tea Party, why did you jump in and say that it insults Tea Party members´ intelligence to say they support Palin or Bachmann? If you don´t really care, why did you respond indignantly?

[ edited by Ben_Reilly ]
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/05/2011 06:07 AM     
  @Ben  
 
"Austrian economics, on the other hand, interprets history or current events in ways that make them retroactively fit existing theories. It is a constant application of confirmation bias; where science begins with observation and ends with theory, Austrian economics begins with a rigid set of largely untestable theories that are then used to interpret the observed economy."

How come Austrians predicted the 29´ crash, great depression, stagflation in 70´s, dot-com, housing?
Little proof:
http://m.youtube.com/...

"Science is the formulation and testing of hypotheses. Even advanced theoretical physics is tested, either through the use of mathematical models or in real-world experiments such as those conducted in super-colliders. "

Thats because Austrians understand human action is unpredictable. Not everyone acts the same in the same situation and you dont even know if the same individual will act the same in the repeated scenario.

Imagine that? Concidering human action into your philosophy. We are not robots, there are no constants to test with humans. This also falls into why "collectivism" is a poor choice. Lets stick 20 people in a room and force them to listen to Justin Beiber for a week straight, and see hoe many people like Beiber after. Do you ever get tired of the same song or movie?

"I know the broad-stroke reasons the global economy is screwed up"

Dont be shy, lets hear. Lets put you on record, im not afraid to

 
  by: T-bagger   07/05/2011 06:46 AM     
  Link  
 
Think my link is busted up. Last time I post from iphone. If I do it again its because im retarded :)

http://www.youtube.com/...

This one is good too:

http://www.youtube.com/...
 
  by: t-bagger   07/05/2011 07:19 AM     
  Market Economics explained  
 
...by using a simple pencil.

http://www.commonsenseeconomics.com/...
 
  by: Mr.Science   07/05/2011 07:32 PM     
  @t-bagger  
 
You always know you have somebody on the ropes when they don´t respond to even half of your post ...

"How come Austrians predicted the 29´ crash, great depression, stagflation in 70´s, dot-com, housing?
Little proof:
http://m.youtube.com/...

Have you ever used a broken clock to try to tell the time? It´s usually wrong, but it´s completely accurate twice a day. That doesn´t make it useful, however.

As I have pointed out before, Austrians predict doom every time someone makes a major Keynesian economic decision. They throw out dozens of ominous predictions. Some of those are bound to be right from time to time.

You seem to pride yourself on your clear-eyed acceptance of reality, but you´ve never pointed out that Austrian economists are wrong at least as often, if not more often, than they´re right.

Just to name two examples, Von Mises himself predicted the British pound would be worthless within seven days of its removal from the gold standard. The pound was removed from the gold standard in 1931 and has been doing fine for 80 years since that decision.

Then there´s noted Austrian Peter Schiff´s woeful prediction about the dollar a few years back and the soaking it caused his faithful ... http://online.wsj.com/...

"Thats because Austrians understand human action is unpredictable. Not everyone acts the same in the same situation and you dont even know if the same individual will act the same in the repeated scenario."

If you´re suggesting that science can´t account for unpredictability, you´re sadly mistaken and must not have even the most rudimentary understanding of quantum theory.

"Imagine that? Concidering human action into your philosophy. We are not robots, there are no constants to test with humans."

There are basic assumptions which tend to hold true. When consumer demand increases, employers tend to hire more workers in order to increase production, for example. That´s why *real* economists worry when consumers are reported to be spending less; it tends to contract economic activity, with businesses not needing to produce as much and thus needing fewer workers, leading to increased unemployment. Thus the statement "there are no constants to test with humans" is demonstrably false.

"This also falls into why "collectivism" is a poor choice. Lets stick 20 people in a room and force them to listen to Justin Beiber for a week straight, and see hoe many people like Beiber after. Do you ever get tired of the same song or movie?"

That has nothing to do with collectivism. Collectivism isn´t the limiting of choices; it´s prioritizing the needs of the group above the needs of the individual. A great example is car traffic. Individualism says you can drive your car anywhere you want and at any time. Collectivist concerns place the limitations we know as traffic laws on that individual freedom, in order to look out for the safety of the public.

"Dont be shy, lets hear. Lets put you on record, im not afraid to"

Well, my opinion was that sub-prime mortgages led us into this mess. Obviously a mortgage on a $100,000 home being paid by someone who delivers pizzas for a living is not stable, but investment banks nonetheless bundled these mortgages into investment products (CDO´s, etc.) that were unwisely rated as safe investments by credit rating agencies and thus were bought up as investments by banks themselves.

In that scenario, even a slight dip in the economy can create cascading failures as bundled debt products stop paying out and investors (in this case, many banks) begin losing a lot of money. Adding to the snowball was the fact that in 2004, the U.S. government abolished the uptick rule, allowing rapid-fire shortselling of stocks (creating an incentive to bet against investments).

Briefly put, too many financial institutions were heavily invested in a financial product that had incorrectly been rated as a safe investment. When the worm turned on those bundled debt products, it took a huge chunk of the world economy with it.

[ edited by Ben_Reilly ]
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/05/2011 07:42 PM     
  @Ben  
 
Im just not into convincing you why you are wrong on all your detail.

Your explanation on the problem is pathetic. You have no idea, it goes back further than the housing bubble too. You dont rack up 14 trillion in a few years. But since you dont understand Austrian Business Cycle, you will never know the problem
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 06:25 AM     
  @Ben  
 
Don´t you understand yet? ~sighs and looks to the sky for assistance~

You can´t see past the nose on your face, and will ~never~ be able to understand what we´ve been trying to explain to you, even though everything we talk about is the same kinda stuff you can learn in ECO101 and ECO102...

Oh crap ~covers herself~ was my sarcasm showing again?

Dang... where did I put that frisbee?
 
  by: vlynxy   07/06/2011 06:55 AM     
  @vlynxy  
 
This is why the Mises Institute was born. Keynes infiltrated the schools and pumped out what you think you you know about economics.

Greenspan/Bernanke/Krugman is all the proof you need. Krugman is still scratching his head in confusion. I understand after a year of studying. If those 3 stooges plus the track record of Austrians you will never be convinced

Good luck in the future
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 07:29 AM     
  @tbag  
 
Luck is not a factor.
 
  by: vlynxy   07/06/2011 07:34 AM     
  @t-bagger  
 
The ABCT makes a few decent points about how lending from central banks can (and I emphasize *can*) create economic bubbles and the resultant "hangovers" (aka recessions) that we pay for getting drunk on easy credit.

But it fails once again as a science for not accounting for two very important things:

1) The existence of credit ratings agencies which (up until the late 2000´s financial crisis, at least) did a decent job of warning the market about unstable investments, and more importantly,

2) The obvious-as-the-nose-on-your-face fact that the boom-and-bust business cycle existed way, way before central banks such as the Fed. Unless you´re positing some sort of time-traveling Bernanke, Greenspan, etc., the Federal Reserve can in no way be held responsible for, say, the recessions/depressions/panics of 1797, 1802, 1807, 1812, 1815, 1822, 1825, 1828, 1833, 1836, 1839, 1845, 1847, 1853, 1857, 1860, 1865, 1869, 1873, 1882, 1887, 1890, 1893, 1896, 1899, 1902, 1907 or 1910. Those all came before the Fed was established in 1913.

[ edited by Ben_Reilly ]
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/06/2011 07:44 AM     
  also @t-bagger  
 
I didn´t realize we were also discussing U.S. national debt. In that case, I blame the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan primarily -- the first for being so costly and completely unnecessary, the second for being so costly and having no clear objective or exit strategy.
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/06/2011 07:47 AM     
  @vlynxy  
 
Just trying to bring awareness. Whether you want to believe it or not, whatever. There is a lot at stake, theres a storm ahead and we know why, extremely predictable, we also know how to stop it. Dont forget the Keynesians declared back in 09´( i believe) that we are in a recovery lol.

But now The Bernake/Krugman are confused why the data isnt coming out as they expected. I really dont know what to say to convince.

Ive provided video evidence of accurate prediction, what more do people want. The ABCT explains it *oh well*
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 08:09 AM     
  @Ben  
 
Guess you forgot about the 1st Bank of USA/2nd Bank of USA and the history lesson behind it
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 08:20 AM     
  @tbag  
 
"Ive provided video evidence of accurate prediction, what more do people want."

I just want you to stop predicting the end of the world. You already missed it. Harold Camping stole that show this year.
 
  by: vlynxy   07/06/2011 02:38 PM     
  @vlynxy  
 
Making accurate predictions isn´t a function of being ´gloom and doom´. Making accurate predictions is a function of having a good grasp on reality.

I was called all those names too in ´03 when I started warning others there was going to be a housing crash, stock market crash, and dollar crash.

From my personal experience, over 95% just didn´t want to believe it until it happened. Normally intelligent people just tend to close their mind to this sort of thing.

On the other hand, if you tell them that we´ll have a huge economic boom, many are more apt to believe it.

It´s easier for many to believe positive fantasies over negative realities.
 
  by: Questioning_Answers     07/06/2011 03:18 PM     
  @vlynxy  
 
" I just want you to stop predicting the end of the world. You already missed it. Harold Camping stole that show this year."

I wouldnt put that in the same category, but thats fine. Hypothetically, if you lived in the USSR in 1987, and there was a economic school of thought telling people "hey guys, the data is screaming trouble" you would tell them they were "doom & gloom" and to shut up?
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 05:24 PM     
  @t-bagger  
 
The problem with Austrian economists is, they predict every sort of doom and gloom and thus guarantee that they´re going to be right.

For example, I could say that I predict here and now that an asteroid is going to hit Earth, a nuclear war is going to break out and that a chemical plant explosion is going to kill a bunch of people if we don´t change policies X, Y and Z. Since one of those things is bound to happen eventually, I´m bound to be right.

But it wouldn´t be honest of me to then say, "see, I predicted that."

Just like it´s dishonest of Austrian economists to claim credit for certain predictions that did come true when so many other predictions, like the extinction of the British Pound 80 years ago or the extinction of the U.S. dollar three years ago, are so obviously shown to have been false.

I think the main reason Austrian economists have such a problem looking reality in the eye and acknowledging that there are gaps in their philosophy is that so many of them have tied their economic understanding so intrinsically to their political stances that to question one part of the whole could cause the whole to unravel.
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/06/2011 07:01 PM     
  @vlynxy  
 
You can throw me that Frisbee when (and only when) you accept Ron Paul as your personal savior.
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/06/2011 07:23 PM     
  also @t-bagger  
 
There was no central bank in the U.S. from 1811–1816, from 1837–1862, or from 1846–1913.

Thus you can´t blame the recessions/depressions/panics of 1812, 1815, 1839, 1845, 1847, 1853, 1857, 1860, 1865, 1869, 1873, 1882, 1887, 1890, 1893, 1896, 1899, 1902, 1907 or 1910 on central banking.

Let´s have some quotes since we´re all big fans of those:

"The Austrian business-cycle theory has done the world a great deal of harm."

- Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize-winning economist

"A few weeks ago, a journalist devoted a substantial part of a profile of yours truly to my failure to pay due attention to the "Austrian theory" of the business cycle—a theory that I regard as being about as worthy of serious study as the phlogiston theory of fire. Oh well."

- Paul Krugman, Nobel Prize-winning economist

************************* (to borrow a device of QA´s)

This quote isn´t about the ABCT, but rather a ringing endorsement of such things as government health care, etc., from the last source I ever expected:

"Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance - where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks - the case for the state´s helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong ... Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make the provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken."

-- FA Hayek, Nobel Prize-winning Austrian economist
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/06/2011 07:47 PM     
  @Ben  
 
All I can say is wow.

"Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance - where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks - the case for the state´s helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong ... Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make the provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken."

-- FA Hayek, Nobel Prize-winning Austrian economist

Do you understand why he says this? Theres more to it that what you seem. This is why economics is a science.

You also understand fractional reserve banking right?

The burden of proof is on Keynes. Why dont you try and explain why we had all this turmoil. Have fun following Krugman lol.

Freidman:
"In July 1985, Milton Friedman delivered the presidential address at the Western Economic Association on the topic "Economists and Economic Policy," which was published in the January 1986 issue of Economic Inquiry. He stated that his many years in advocating a monetary "rule," under which the central monetary authority would increase the money supply at a constant annual rate regardless of changing economic conditions, had been a waste of time. The reason, he said, is that there is no basis for thinking it would ever be in the interest of those who managed the government monetary system to follow such a rule"

Also in 1986, Friedman coauthored an article with Anna Schwartz that asked the question, "Has Government Any Role in Money?" They concluded that in principle it did not need to have one and historically sometimes had none"

"Our own conclusion ... is that leaving monetary and banking arrangements to the market would have produced a more satisfactory outcome than was actually achieved through government involvement."

Iv already started my own line of predictions with my circle of friends. I predicted a month ago that there would be a QE3 but Bernanke will name it something else, but economically have the same impact, guess what?. I also predicted that Greece will need another bailout, guess what?. I have many more predictions up my sleeve too, but more importantly I know where to put my money. How is that low- inflation working out for you? Enjoying your Phillips Curve and Multiplier?

Do you care to make short-term predictions? I will name a few, put your Keynes where your mouth is. This is your big chance to out economic me that you love to claim. Just a friendly challenge :)



[ edited by t-bagger ]
 
  by: t-bagger   07/06/2011 08:50 PM     
  @t-bagger  
 
No, I´d like you to actually address the concrete points I´ve made before I jump through yet another hoop for you. I´ve answered and responded to everything you´ve said, and you just keep changing the subject.

Hayek´s quote is clearly an endorsement of state-run insurance (where appropriate) and cannot be understood as anything else unless you are purposefully misinterpreting the quote.

As for your predictions, why don´t you share them *before* they happen?

I´m not here to "out-economic" you (whatever that means). I´d actually enjoy it if we could talk about things besides Austrian economics, as I´ve stated hundreds of times before.
 
  by: Ben_Reilly     07/06/2011 09:13 PM     
  @Ben  
 
Whats point of me discussing economics with you? We are not going convince each other. Only detailed predictions before they happen will decide this, like, before they actually happen.

Kinda like a football game. "Giants are better!" "No,Steelers are better, because blah blah blah"
Get on the field and find out

Dont waist me time, saying you know your stuff, without predictions to back it up. Hindsight is 20/20, something you have found to try and twist your narrative into(Fox News anybody???)
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 10:39 PM     
  @Ben  
 
Whats point of me discussing economics with you? We are not going convince each other. Only detailed predictions before they happen will decide this, like, before they actually happen.

Kinda like a football game. "Giants are better!" "No,Steelers are better, because blah blah blah"
Get on the field and find out

Dont waist me time, saying you know your stuff, without predictions to back it up. Hindsight is 20/20, something you have found to try and twist your narrative into(Fox News anybody???)

If your right and im wrong ill shake your hand and admit im wrong. Im probably the least educated so im an easy target!

[ edited by T-bagger ]
 
  by: T-bagger   07/06/2011 10:42 PM     
  Lol  
 
I cant even spell waste properly! that makes me dumb
 
  by: T-bagger   07/07/2011 12:50 AM     
 
 
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